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First Time Buyer - High Time Turbo Arrow
I'm looking at a 1982 Turbo Arrow as a first time purchase. I'm not
new to aviation, and have sufficient time in the make/model to satisfy the insurance company. I haven't looked at the plane in person yet, but have had a few conversations with the owner about it. My question is really about the airframe total time. Presently the aircraft has 7000 hrs. on the airframe, and 1150 on the engine. Should I steer clear of a plane with this kind of time on the airframe? What are the concerns with an airframe as high in time as this? I'm also wondering if it is reasonable to ask for an engine oil analysis among other things? I'll likely have to fly (commercial) to look at it, so I'm curious to hear how people handle that. More than one trip, I would guess. Any advice would be appreciated. |
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On Sat, 19 Jun 2004 21:17:47 -0400, " Mark
Miller wrote: I'm looking at a 1982 Turbo Arrow as a first time purchase. I'm not new to aviation, and have sufficient time in the make/model to satisfy the insurance company. I haven't looked at the plane in person yet, but have had a few conversations with the owner about it. My question is really about the airframe total time. Presently the aircraft has 7000 hrs. on the airframe, and 1150 on the engine. Should I steer clear of a plane with this kind of time on the airframe? What are the concerns with an airframe as high in time as this? I'm also wondering if it is reasonable to ask for an engine oil analysis among other things? I'll likely have to fly (commercial) to look at it, so I'm curious to hear how people handle that. More than one trip, I would guess. Any advice would be appreciated. 7000 hours can vary greatly. Were all 7000 spent training students? Or were most cross country flights made by owners. I own a Cherokee 235B with about 6700 hours and it flies great! I was not concerned at all when I went to see the airplane as I had read through the logbooks and had a picture of the planes past use and maintenance. I also had pictures of the exterior and interior. I was within a 6 hour train ride so it wasn't so bad, but when I got on the train I knew if the pre-buy matched what I already thought I'd give the guy a check. Needless to say, it worked out. Someone I respect with more than 60 years as a mechanic and airport operator has a neat concept for bringing owner and buyer together. Study the logs(with your mechanic), look at pictures, etc. and get a feel for if you want the plane. If you do, offer the seller re-imbursement for all expenses to get the plane to you, and a return trip on the airline of his choice if the pre-buy goes as expected. You may even want to send him a check for 500 or 1000 dollars so he knows you're serious. If he balks he may be hiding something. Obviously he may not have the time either, but try to convince him to get the plane to you. An honest seller shouldn't have any problem with this approach. You won't lose any money either because you'll have to pay it for you to travel anyway, and it'll let your mechanic do the once over. It'll also allow the owner to have one last flight in his bird., I've seen this work first hand, and the mechanic I'm speaking of says it has worked many time in his life. It'll also save you multiple trips across the country. Hope this helps. z |
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#5
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I would imagine the '82 is the same?. I (personally) wouldn't touch that
engine/airframe combination with a "10-meter cattle prod." It's notorious for roasting cylinders, cooking turbos, and has an extremely twitchy throttle response due to the turbo lag/boost. As I recall, this was essentially the Av. Consumer's conclusion as well - the TSIO-360/PA-28R airframe has been a problematic match in the hands of less than careful, low-altitude operators. At 1100 SMOH and unknown history, you should probably consider it a near-runout. But, with a fresh engine and good engine instrumentation, it can probably be managed. I know there aren't many other candidates in this price range, the TR182's are expensive, straight-leg T182s are rare, and not many 177RG's have been converted yet, either. |
#6
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the turbo arrow has a TSIO-360-F or -FB engine, its only 200 HP, the FB being the
preferred engine since it has the 1800 hour TBO and the cylinders do not crack as easy as the ones in the -F model engine did. wrote: Mark Miller wrote: : I'm looking at a 1982 Turbo Arrow as a first time purchase. I'm not : new to aviation, and have sufficient time in the make/model to satisfy : the insurance company. I haven't looked at the plane in person yet, : but have had a few conversations with the owner about it. My mechanic has a '77 turbo arrow with the Continental TSIO-360 210hp in it. I would imagine the '82 is the same?. I (personally) wouldn't touch that engine/airframe combination with a "10-meter cattle prod." It's notorious for roasting cylinders, cooking turbos, and has an extremely twitchy throttle response due to the turbo lag/boost. Even with the improved STC'd wastegate he put on, it's still twitchy and makes boost all the time that must be throttled. It's also necessarily neutered at 7:1 to keep it from detonating. I get 180 hp out of a carb'd O-360 with more detonation margin on 93 octane cargas than his TSIO-360 on 100LL. Of course if you go high, it's a different game, but my friend doesn't even have his oxygen set up. If that's the setup you want/need, that's fine... just making you aware of the issues. I'd much rather have more engine and normally aspirated, but for an arrow you're kinda stuck. If I ever get a turbo it'll be turbo-normalized at most. Other than that, I wouldn't let 7000 hours dissuade you inherently. It's much more a matter of how those hours were put on and maintained. Check the logs thoroughly with someone who works on Arrows a lot, but don't assume they're correct. There's an awful lot of "pencil-whipping" out there... especially for expensive repairs. Take your mechanic arrow-expert to look at it... he'll know what big (read: expensive) items to check for (gear issues, signs of a gear-up landing, shoddy avionics installs, etc). -Cory -- ************************************************** *********************** * The prime directive of Linux: * * - learn what you don't know, * * - teach what you do. * * (Just my 20 USm$) * ************************************************** *********************** |
#7
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Jeff wrote in
: the turbo arrow has a TSIO-360-F or -FB engine, its only 200 HP, the FB being the preferred engine since it has the 1800 hour TBO and the cylinders do not crack as easy as the ones in the -F model engine did. Is that true? I thought the F and FB used the same cylinders. It's the "F" *case* (thinwall) that is prone to cracking. [IMHO, *ALL* TCM cylinders are prone to cracking, and anything else that poor quality control can cause. {:(] jmk |
#8
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On 19-Jun-2004, " Mark Miller wrote: I'll likely have to fly (commercial) to look at it, so I'm curious to hear how people handle that. More than one trip, I would guess. Any advice would be appreciated. Before spending a lot of time and money traveling to see the airplane, why not have an objective person located nearby have a look? What we did in this case was arrange for a local mechanic (NOT the one doing regular maintenance on the plane) spend about an hour looking for obvious problems. This is NOT an adequate pre-buy, just an initial screening to keep you from wasting time and money on obvious dogs. A good $60-80 investment. If the mechanic (or it could be a trusted pilot friend) reports back that the plane APPEARS to be as advertised, THEN go ahead and arrange for a thorough pre-buy and/or an in-person inspection. -- -Elliott Drucker |
#9
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Make sure you have the owner pick you up at the airport in his car.
You can pretty much make a determination, then and there, about the airplane just by looking at his car. This happened to me when I went to Denver to look at an Aztec that was billed as immaculate. When the guy (airline pilot, that should raise the warning flag) picked me up in a beater BMW I suspected the worst, and I was sorely disappointed in the airplane. Sellers often extremely overstate the condition of the airplane for sale. Beware, and remember the vast majority of pilots are cheapskates! Karl wrote in message ... On 19-Jun-2004, " Mark Miller wrote: I'll likely have to fly (commercial) to look at it, so I'm curious to hear how people handle that. More than one trip, I would guess. Any advice would be appreciated. Before spending a lot of time and money traveling to see the airplane, why not have an objective person located nearby have a look? What we did in this case was arrange for a local mechanic (NOT the one doing regular maintenance on the plane) spend about an hour looking for obvious problems. This is NOT an adequate pre-buy, just an initial screening to keep you from wasting time and money on obvious dogs. A good $60-80 investment. If the mechanic (or it could be a trusted pilot friend) reports back that the plane APPEARS to be as advertised, THEN go ahead and arrange for a thorough pre-buy and/or an in-person inspection. -- -Elliott Drucker |
#10
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On Mon, 21 Jun 2004 06:52:35 -0700, "kage"
wrote: You can pretty much make a determination, then and there, about the airplane just by looking at his car. I don't agree. I drive a used car that looks like hell, but is mechanically sound. I did this as a trade off so I had enough money to buy and maintain my airplane (which looks nothing like my car). z |
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