Glider Crash - Minden?

T o d d P a t t i s t wrote:
"Mike the Strike" wrote:

...and what is the downside of operating a new but uncertified
transponder? Can't be worse than getting run over by a bizjet.

It's a violation of 91.413(a) to turn it on. A bad TCAS
resolution could result from a bad encoder altitude.

My transponder reads out the encoder altitude. Is that adequate? Or how
about asking ATC what altitude they are reading from my glider? Or how
about using it in Mode A until it's checked?

--
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Eric Greenwell - Washington State, USA

www.motorglider.org - Download "A Guide to Self-launching Sailplane
Operation"

kirk.stant wrote:
Stefan wrote:
No.

Yes. I've done it in fighters, light planes, and gliders. Dodged
F-16s and AV-8Bs in Arizona for many years in my LS6.

Of course, if you don't see it, for whatever reason, then yes it can
hit you. If you were deaf, you could even get run over by a blimp!
(except the shadow might warn you!).

Worse case is getting run down from behind. It helps if you hear the
fighters and throw up a wing so they see you (done that too - it worked
just fine). You do have to be willing to move your glider around to
look all around when you suspect there is someone in your blind spot.

Would you write an article for Soaring magazine about your techniques?
It seems like an appropriate time. I know I don't see fighters soon
enough, and I'm sure I could miss aircraft coming up behind me. I often
see aircraft in the distance, but I know I haven't seen some airplanes
of various types that were potential threats.

--
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Eric Greenwell - Washington State, USA

www.motorglider.org - Download "A Guide to Self-launching Sailplane
Operation"

Mike the Strike wrote:

...and what is the downside of operating a new but uncertified
transponder? Can't be worse than getting run over by a bizjet.

Mike

I'd guess the problem is the same as the parachute with an out of date
packing slip. It's illegal to carry the parachute, much less attempt to
use it just because it's the only thing that might save your life.

An uncertificated transponder installation probably has a C/B that the
pilot was told was illegal to set. A conscientious, Japanese visitor
probably thinks following the hometown rules is the right thing to do.

GC

Curse the online Code of Federal Regulations!!!

Fortunately, it is not as easy for the government to change the
regulations as it is for us to spew them on the web.

Good detective work, Todd.

As the Dali Lama was qouted: "Study the rule so you can break them
properly."

-Pete
T o d d P a t t i s t wrote:
As
a matter of interest, I looked them up:

The jet stalls if it goes slower?

"Mike Schumann" wrote in message
ink.net...
Let me rephrase that; It is very difficult to see converging traffic
approaching at 100 - 200 knots.

Mike Schumann

"SAM 303a" brentDAHTsullivanATgmailDAHTcom wrote in message
...
Is that an appropriate and prudent speed to fly in an area know for
soaring?

"Mike Schumann" wrote in message
nk.net...
The reality is that it is incredibly difficult to see converging
traffic
that is approaching at 200-300 knots.

Mike Schumann

"Eric Greenwell" wrote in message
news:Zn6Jg.3900$nR2.1435@trnddc03...
kirk.stant wrote:
Hmm, the glider is thermalling - probably the easiest thing in the
air
to see from another aircraft approaching.

So much for professional pilots looking out the window.

If the glider had been cruising I could understand it. I've lost
gliders I've been following when I knew where they were. But there
is
little excuse in a two-crew cockpit to miss something as substantial
as
an 18 meter glider thermalling in front of you!

A thermalling glider should be able to see approaching aircraft more
easily, too. Quite different from being run down by a faster aircraft
coming up behind. We probably shouldn't be too smug at this point,
until
we know the facts for sure.

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Eric Greenwell - Washington State, USA

www.motorglider.org - Download "A Guide to Self-launching Sailplane
Operation"

And isn't this point the reason one might question the prudence of flying so
fast in such an area?
What are the responsibilities of the jet pilot? If the pilot must yeild to
the glider, isn't the jet pilot being irresponsible if she flies at a speed
that allows her no opportunity to yeild?

"Eric Greenwell" wrote in message
news:qDjJg.3232$XD1.570@trnddc01...
HL Falbaum wrote:
A thermalling glider has a moving blind spot that may be 15 seconds or
more.
Not much-but how much distance can a bizjet cover in 15 seconds?
Remember to
increase the TAS (and thus GS) by 2% per thousand feet over and above
the
IAS.---The jet can go from a speck to very big in that distance.

Yes, and even worse, the glider goes from a tiny speck to not very big
in the same distance. It's a tough situation for see-and-avoid.


--
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Eric Greenwell - Washington State, USA

www.motorglider.org - Download "A Guide to Self-launching Sailplane
Operation"

T o d d P a t t i s t wrote:

I've had situations where I hear piston traffic coming from
behind while in cruise. I'm never quite sure if "throwing a
wing up" helps me because it makes me easier to see or hurts
me because it makes my impact cross section larger for the
oncoming aircraft in level cruise. I've always been
inclined towards the "it hurts me," but not with any real
conviction one way or another.
--
T o d d P a t t i s t - "WH" Ventus C
(Remove DONTSPAMME from address to email reply.)

In those situations, I've always found that ducking my head and
slouching my shoulders to assume the nearest thing to fetal position
possible in a glider cockpit was comforting. Not sure what it does to
the probability of an impact though :-).

In all seriousness, I have in the past been fairly careful about flying
along those Victor airways that I know to be primary approach corridors
into our local area (ie. New York). Whenever I've been in one, I've
tended to do what Kirk does, which is to make a slightly more than 90
degree shackle turn every few minutes to both provide a visible surface
and to see what's behind me. In retrospect, it's probably not an
extremely effective maneuver since the timing would have to be just
right to have any impact (or, rather, not have any impact). Just the
other day, I had a 40 mile final glide, level for the most part between
4,500 and 6,500 MSL (pretty rare here in the East, but it does happen).
That was a long time to be more or less invisible to a rapidly
approaching Bizjet if there happened to be one...

Erik Mann
LS8-18 P3

Eric Greenwell wrote:
Would you write an article for Soaring magazine about your techniques?
It seems like an appropriate time. I know I don't see fighters soon
enough, and I'm sure I could miss aircraft coming up behind me. I often
see aircraft in the distance, but I know I haven't seen some airplanes
of various types that were potential threats.


Eric, it's not so much a technique as paranoia about other traffic.
There are some tricks that all pilots should know and use: have an
absolutely clean canopy (inside and out - I'm amazed by how filthy most
pilots let their canopies get), minimize reflections and obstructions
(PDA's, big compasses, etc.), keep "inside the cockpit" tasks short,
refocus at inifinity often while scanning, look for threats, not just
passing airplanes (low or high is not very critical, what's on the
horizon is dangerous!, and ALWAYS CLEAR YOUR FLIGHTPATH), look for
motion or lack of it in the forward quadrant.

Use every tool available - call out passing planes to other gliders and
vice versa, listen to tower when passing a busy airport, look for
shadows on the ground (good in the pattern), smoke trails or glints in
the air, and sound - if anything makes the hairs on the back of your
neck stand up, the turn and look around.

Think about where the traffic will be coming from. When you are
cruising and are near the VFR hemispheric altitudes, look in the
direction the traffic will be coming from. Most power pilots will fly
at "easy" altitudes (multiples of 500').

Avoid hanging around VORs, intersections, and following major
interstates - lots of power traffic there, flying IFR (I follow roads)!

Due to the speed difference it is hard for a glider to get away from a
fast mover at close range, but if you are seen there is a good chance
he will maneuver to avoid. And your cross section is basically the
same whether turning or flying straight - it's just oriented different.
But whip into a steep turn (45 degrees either way) and you will
probably be seen - and you get to see other planes maneuver out of your
way. I've seen everything from King Airs, 737s, and F-16s respond to a
wing flash.

Of course I've also seen a 737 fly right through my thermal just
outside of Class B airspace (acturally right next to an
approach/departure extension of the B airspace. I was carefully
thermalling outside the Class B, watching the arrivals, and watched as
one guy approached from the West. When it was obvious he was going to
join me in my nice 7 knot thermal, I moved out of his way, let him by
(no noise by the way) then re-entered the thermal and continued the
climb.

I've also heard jet noise, done a check turn, and been rewarded with
the sight of 2 F-16s about a half mile away maneuvering hard to go
around me.

Final tip - if you see one jet fighter, start looking real hard for the
other one, and for the additional two in trail. And if the one you
see is going to pass about a mile to your side, then be real scared of
the one you don't see that is in one mile spread formation, watching
his leader, just like you are. Fighters almost never fly alone.

Anybody else got good suggestions/techniques/tips?

Kirk
66

Wow, so many aircrafts...
In the 7 years and about 2000 hours I flew my LS4, I never saw
commercial traffic close by, and I fly most of the time in the Reno
area. Maybe it has to do with the fact that I am using a transponder?
I had one close call over airsailing with an airliner in the short time
I flew club gliders without transponders (I believe they all have
transponders now).

Ramy

kirk.stant wrote:
Eric Greenwell wrote:
Would you write an article for Soaring magazine about your techniques?
It seems like an appropriate time. I know I don't see fighters soon
enough, and I'm sure I could miss aircraft coming up behind me. I often
see aircraft in the distance, but I know I haven't seen some airplanes
of various types that were potential threats.


Eric, it's not so much a technique as paranoia about other traffic.
There are some tricks that all pilots should know and use: have an
absolutely clean canopy (inside and out - I'm amazed by how filthy most
pilots let their canopies get), minimize reflections and obstructions
(PDA's, big compasses, etc.), keep "inside the cockpit" tasks short,
refocus at inifinity often while scanning, look for threats, not just
passing airplanes (low or high is not very critical, what's on the
horizon is dangerous!, and ALWAYS CLEAR YOUR FLIGHTPATH), look for
motion or lack of it in the forward quadrant.

Use every tool available - call out passing planes to other gliders and
vice versa, listen to tower when passing a busy airport, look for
shadows on the ground (good in the pattern), smoke trails or glints in
the air, and sound - if anything makes the hairs on the back of your
neck stand up, the turn and look around.

Think about where the traffic will be coming from. When you are
cruising and are near the VFR hemispheric altitudes, look in the
direction the traffic will be coming from. Most power pilots will fly
at "easy" altitudes (multiples of 500').

Avoid hanging around VORs, intersections, and following major
interstates - lots of power traffic there, flying IFR (I follow roads)!

Due to the speed difference it is hard for a glider to get away from a
fast mover at close range, but if you are seen there is a good chance
he will maneuver to avoid. And your cross section is basically the
same whether turning or flying straight - it's just oriented different.
But whip into a steep turn (45 degrees either way) and you will
probably be seen - and you get to see other planes maneuver out of your
way. I've seen everything from King Airs, 737s, and F-16s respond to a
wing flash.

Of course I've also seen a 737 fly right through my thermal just
outside of Class B airspace (acturally right next to an
approach/departure extension of the B airspace. I was carefully
thermalling outside the Class B, watching the arrivals, and watched as
one guy approached from the West. When it was obvious he was going to
join me in my nice 7 knot thermal, I moved out of his way, let him by
(no noise by the way) then re-entered the thermal and continued the
climb.

I've also heard jet noise, done a check turn, and been rewarded with
the sight of 2 F-16s about a half mile away maneuvering hard to go
around me.

Final tip - if you see one jet fighter, start looking real hard for the
other one, and for the additional two in trail. And if the one you
see is going to pass about a mile to your side, then be real scared of
the one you don't see that is in one mile spread formation, watching
his leader, just like you are. Fighters almost never fly alone.

Anybody else got good suggestions/techniques/tips?

Kirk
66

Isn't there a speed limitation in class G in the USA? (In Europe it's
250 knots max)

J. N.