Flarm in the US

Curious about the use of Flarm in the US. Was told by another pilot
that the frequency used by Flarm is not approved for that category of
use in the US. Is that true? If it is, do they make units that use a
US approved frequency?

On Aug 9, 9:43*am, Steve Freeman wrote:
Curious about the use of Flarm in the US. Was told by another pilot
that the frequency used by Flarm is not approved for that category of
use in the US. Is that true? If it is, do they make units that use a
US approved frequency?

powerflarm units for use in USA will be available later this year.
older flarm units are not for use in USA.

See: http://www.powerflarm.aero/

Hope that helps,
Best Regards, Dave "YO electric"

On 8/9/2010 8:51 AM, Dave Nadler wrote:
On Aug 9, 9:43 am, Steve wrote:
Curious about the use of Flarm in the US. Was told by another pilot
that the frequency used by Flarm is not approved for that category of
use in the US. Is that true? If it is, do they make units that use a
US approved frequency?

powerflarm units for use in USA will be available later this year.
older flarm units are not for use in USA.

See: http://www.powerflarm.aero/

Hope that helps,
Best Regards, Dave "YO electric"

The PowerFlarm specs specify that they transmit on 868 MHz. Is this
frequency permitted in the US?

--
Mike Schumann

On Aug 10, 12:41*pm, Mike Schumann
wrote:
On 8/9/2010 8:51 AM, Dave Nadler wrote:

On Aug 9, 9:43 am, Steve *wrote:
Curious about the use of Flarm in the US. Was told by another pilot
that the frequency used by Flarm is not approved for that category of
use in the US. Is that true? If it is, do they make units that use a
US approved frequency?

powerflarm units for use in USA will be available later this year.
older flarm units are not for use in USA.

See:http://www.powerflarm.aero/

Hope that helps,
Best Regards, Dave "YO electric"

The PowerFlarm specs specify that they transmit on 868 MHz. *Is this
frequency permitted in the US?

--
Mike Schumann

What you think FLARM have not thought of that?

Be a bit careful readying the PowerFLARM web site, it's clearly
focused on the European market.

PowerFLARM will operate on a different frequency in the USA than
Europe. Flarm already operates on a different frequencies in
Australia, New Zealand and the rest of the world. Flarm has had a 915
Mhz frequency planned for use the USA for quite a while, although I
don't know if that is the final decision or not. And current units
have neat automatic frequency section based on location. I don't know
for sure if PowerFLARM will do the automatically location based
frequency change but I've been told by the US distributor that units
purchased here will definitely run overseas (for example for traveling
contest pilots).

Darryl

On 8/10/2010 3:29 PM, Darryl Ramm wrote:
On Aug 10, 12:41 pm, Mike
wrote:
On 8/9/2010 8:51 AM, Dave Nadler wrote:

On Aug 9, 9:43 am, Steve wrote:
Curious about the use of Flarm in the US. Was told by another pilot
that the frequency used by Flarm is not approved for that category of
use in the US. Is that true? If it is, do they make units that use a
US approved frequency?

powerflarm units for use in USA will be available later this year.
older flarm units are not for use in USA.

See:http://www.powerflarm.aero/

Hope that helps,
Best Regards, Dave "YO electric"

The PowerFlarm specs specify that they transmit on 868 MHz. Is this
frequency permitted in the US?

--
Mike Schumann

What you think FLARM have not thought of that?

Be a bit careful readying the PowerFLARM web site, it's clearly
focused on the European market.

PowerFLARM will operate on a different frequency in the USA than
Europe. Flarm already operates on a different frequencies in
Australia, New Zealand and the rest of the world. Flarm has had a 915
Mhz frequency planned for use the USA for quite a while, although I
don't know if that is the final decision or not. And current units
have neat automatic frequency section based on location. I don't know
for sure if PowerFLARM will do the automatically location based
frequency change but I've been told by the US distributor that units
purchased here will definitely run overseas (for example for traveling
contest pilots).

Darryl

I am very careful in reading the PowerFlarm web site. No where is there
any indication that the information provided is European only and that
US models are different.

My whole message here is that people need to VERY carefully research
everything, as all of the options available, now or in the future, have
their own quirks and limitations. No one should assume anything that
isn't clearly documented.

--
Mike Schumann

Has anyone noticed how big this unit is? It is way too big to fit
anywhere in my glider considering I already have a big moving map in
my panel.

FLARM on the ridge is a very good idea, but how many pilots will put a
unit in for FLARM to be effective as a system.

I like the idea of renting FLARM at contests where they are needed the
most, but I would be totally against a FLARM unit that does not have a
voice synthesizer. Looking at the darn display while in a thermal is
asking for trouble.

I would like to try the unit, but I am not ready to buy unless I see
it working in a real situation.

On 8/9/2010 8:43 AM, Steve Freeman wrote:
Curious about the use of Flarm in the US. Was told by another pilot
that the frequency used by Flarm is not approved for that category of
use in the US. Is that true? If it is, do they make units that use a
US approved frequency?

There is virtually no FLARM in the US. It is unlikely to take off here,
as the biggest threats for mid-airs in the US are between powered
aircraft and gliders or other aircraft.

It's a chicken and egg situation. FLARM is only interesting if everyone
equips. No one is going to equip if they don't think that everyone else
will.

With ADS-B coming out, that is the way to go in the US. If you buy an
ADS-B transceiver, not only will you see other ADS-B equipped aircraft,
but, if you are within range of an ADS-B ground station, you will also
see all Mode C/S transponder equipped aircraft that are visible to ATC.
With 80-90% of GA aircraft in the US transponder equipped, this gives
an immediate benefit to anyone investing in ADS-B (assuming that they
have a ground station deployed in their area).

--
Mike Schumann

On Aug 9, 7:56*am, Mike Schumann
wrote:
On 8/9/2010 8:43 AM, Steve Freeman wrote:

Curious about the use of Flarm in the US. Was told by another pilot
that the frequency used by Flarm is not approved for that category of
use in the US. Is that true? If it is, do they make units that use a
US approved frequency?

There is virtually no FLARM in the US. *It is unlikely to take off here,
as the biggest threats for mid-airs in the US are between powered
aircraft and gliders or other aircraft.

It's a chicken and egg situation. *FLARM is only interesting if everyone
equips. *No one is going to equip if they don't think that everyone else
will.

With ADS-B coming out, that is the way to go in the US. *If you buy an
ADS-B transceiver, not only will you see other ADS-B equipped aircraft,
but, if you are within range of an ADS-B ground station, you will also
see all Mode C/S transponder equipped aircraft that are visible to ATC.
* With 80-90% of GA aircraft in the US transponder equipped, this gives
an immediate benefit to anyone investing in ADS-B (assuming that they
have a ground station deployed in their area).

--
Mike Schumann

Mike,
Your points are all well taken. I realize that FLARM has never been
accepted in the US up to now, and we all know that ADS-B is coming in
2020 (although I thought there was a "glider" exemption), but with
that being said, would it make any sense for FLARM units to be
required for gliders competing in any of our nationals (or maybe even
in regionals)?

As you are aware, we've had several mid-airs between gliders in recent
years and perhaps if gliders had been equipped with FLARM units in a
nationals or in a regionals, some of these mid-airs might have been
prevented.....Just a thought!

Thanks - Renny

On Aug 9, 7:12*am, Renny wrote:
On Aug 9, 7:56*am, Mike Schumann
wrote:



On 8/9/2010 8:43 AM, Steve Freeman wrote:

Curious about the use of Flarm in the US. Was told by another pilot
that the frequency used by Flarm is not approved for that category of
use in the US. Is that true? If it is, do they make units that use a
US approved frequency?

There is virtually no FLARM in the US. *It is unlikely to take off here,
as the biggest threats for mid-airs in the US are between powered
aircraft and gliders or other aircraft.

It's a chicken and egg situation. *FLARM is only interesting if everyone
equips. *No one is going to equip if they don't think that everyone else
will.

With ADS-B coming out, that is the way to go in the US. *If you buy an
ADS-B transceiver, not only will you see other ADS-B equipped aircraft,
but, if you are within range of an ADS-B ground station, you will also
see all Mode C/S transponder equipped aircraft that are visible to ATC.
* With 80-90% of GA aircraft in the US transponder equipped, this gives
an immediate benefit to anyone investing in ADS-B (assuming that they
have a ground station deployed in their area).

--
Mike Schumann

Mike,
Your points are all well taken. I realize that FLARM has never been
accepted in the US up to now, and we all know that ADS-B is coming in
2020 (although I thought there was a "glider" exemption), but with
that being said, would it make any sense for FLARM units to be
required for gliders competing in any of our nationals (or maybe even
in regionals)?

As you are aware, we've had several mid-airs between gliders in recent
years and perhaps if gliders had been equipped with FLARM units in a
nationals or in a regionals, some of these mid-airs might have been
prevented.....Just a thought!

Thanks - Renny

Mike and Renny,
a good discussion of the macro view of FLARM and ADS-B. Another view
is more personal, for example in my situation- I fly a lot of ridge
and mountain in a very narrow altitude band and a lot of clouds. There
is not a lot of power traffic in those conditions. I have a
transponder but I don't see the Transmit light going off very often
and I suspect I am not getting very many radar paints down in the
rocks and trees where I like to fly. My greatest risk is from the six
other gliders I share the area with, which do not have transponders
and will never get them at the current costs; in fairness my threat to
them is even higher as I am a low hour pilot. FLARM would go a long
way to reducing the risks and at a reasonable cost; PowerFlarm would
be my choice as it would also provide protection from ADS-B and
transponder equipped threats, but at twice the cost the installed base
in my situation would be very much reduced and I stand a better chance
of talking my potentially deadly friends into investing in FLARM. 2020
is not soon enough. It is not soon enough for the pilots killed on a
regular basis at contests, which we seem to simply accept as an
unavoidable risk.

With that in mind Mike's statement that FLARM isn't of use (for me)
would not be correct. In 2004 my club lost two gliders and a pilot in
a collision that would not have happens if they had had FLARM. How do
you calculate that cost?

Brian

On 8/9/2010 11:23 AM, brianDG303 wrote:
On Aug 9, 7:12 am, wrote:
On Aug 9, 7:56 am, Mike
wrote:



On 8/9/2010 8:43 AM, Steve Freeman wrote:

Curious about the use of Flarm in the US. Was told by another pilot
that the frequency used by Flarm is not approved for that category of
use in the US. Is that true? If it is, do they make units that use a
US approved frequency?

There is virtually no FLARM in the US. It is unlikely to take off here,
as the biggest threats for mid-airs in the US are between powered
aircraft and gliders or other aircraft.

It's a chicken and egg situation. FLARM is only interesting if everyone
equips. No one is going to equip if they don't think that everyone else
will.

With ADS-B coming out, that is the way to go in the US. If you buy an
ADS-B transceiver, not only will you see other ADS-B equipped aircraft,
but, if you are within range of an ADS-B ground station, you will also
see all Mode C/S transponder equipped aircraft that are visible to ATC.
With 80-90% of GA aircraft in the US transponder equipped, this gives
an immediate benefit to anyone investing in ADS-B (assuming that they
have a ground station deployed in their area).

--
Mike Schumann

Mike,
Your points are all well taken. I realize that FLARM has never been
accepted in the US up to now, and we all know that ADS-B is coming in
2020 (although I thought there was a "glider" exemption), but with
that being said, would it make any sense for FLARM units to be
required for gliders competing in any of our nationals (or maybe even
in regionals)?

As you are aware, we've had several mid-airs between gliders in recent
years and perhaps if gliders had been equipped with FLARM units in a
nationals or in a regionals, some of these mid-airs might have been
prevented.....Just a thought!

Thanks - Renny

Mike and Renny,
a good discussion of the macro view of FLARM and ADS-B. Another view
is more personal, for example in my situation- I fly a lot of ridge
and mountain in a very narrow altitude band and a lot of clouds. There
is not a lot of power traffic in those conditions. I have a
transponder but I don't see the Transmit light going off very often
and I suspect I am not getting very many radar paints down in the
rocks and trees where I like to fly. My greatest risk is from the six
other gliders I share the area with, which do not have transponders
and will never get them at the current costs; in fairness my threat to
them is even higher as I am a low hour pilot. FLARM would go a long
way to reducing the risks and at a reasonable cost; PowerFlarm would
be my choice as it would also provide protection from ADS-B and
transponder equipped threats, but at twice the cost the installed base
in my situation would be very much reduced and I stand a better chance
of talking my potentially deadly friends into investing in FLARM. 2020
is not soon enough. It is not soon enough for the pilots killed on a
regular basis at contests, which we seem to simply accept as an
unavoidable risk.

With that in mind Mike's statement that FLARM isn't of use (for me)
would not be correct. In 2004 my club lost two gliders and a pilot in
a collision that would not have happens if they had had FLARM. How do
you calculate that cost?

Brian

Why not convince your fellow pilots to invest in the Navworx ADS-B
transceiver that is now shipping? FLARM in the US is a dead end. ADS-B
is the future. If you invest in a Navworx type of device, not only
would you see each other, but you will also see other ADS-B equipped GA
aircraft, and if you are flying within range of a ground station, ALL
transponder equipped aircraft.

--
Mike Schumann