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Thinking about buying a DG400



 
 
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  #1  
Old May 26th 17, 05:22 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
[email protected]
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Posts: 2
Default Thinking about buying a DG400

Hi everyone

I'm thinking about buying a DG400 and I'm looking for opinions. It would be my first self launching glider and I would appreciate any advise. I've seen the market and the price range between 50.00 and 56.000€ with about 140 to 200h engine hours.

I've been reading these days a lot about the ship and I love it. The only problem that I see is the engine: it is not produced any more. What would happen if I have any problem and I couldn't find any spares? I would be useless as motorglider.

Anything you can tell me about it is welcome

Thank you!

  #2  
Old May 26th 17, 08:31 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
Dave Walsh
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Posts: 83
Default Thinking about buying a DG400

At 16:22 26 May 2017, wrote:
Hi everyone=20

I'm thinking about buying a DG400 and I'm looking for

opinions. It would
be=
my first self launching glider and I would appreciate any

advise. I've
see=
n the market and the price range between 50.00 and

56.000=E2=82=AC with
abo=
ut 140 to 200h engine hours.=20

I've been reading these days a lot about the ship and I love

it. The only
p=
roblem that I see is the engine: it is not produced any

more. What would
ha=
ppen if I have any problem and I couldn't find any spares?

I would be
usele=
ss as motorglider.=20

Anything you can tell me about it is welcome=20

Thank you!

You could do worse than join the various DG/Solo forums;

lots of experience out there. I owned a 400 in the UK for
many years (my first motor glider): it never failed to start
and it never broke a drive belt, it never needed any engine
repair. The same cannot be said of the electronics. The main
source of minor wiring problems was vibration. Today the
main problem might be sourcing engine parts should they be
needed. Find an inspector who deals with DG400's and ask
their advice; options exist if you have a friendly inspector.
Despite the relatively high wing loading its weak climb
performance is adequate (a very necessary feature in the
UK!). It's docile, easy to fly, good visibility, good brakes and
good (for its day) high speed performance. Good cross wind
take off ability (for a pylon self launcher: they're all tricky in
cross winds).
Excellent DG build quality, gel coat.
We had the optional wing fuel tanks which I think we used
once in 6 years. They have a finite life & their replacement is
not cheap.
The optional solar panels are a VERY worthwhile addition.
DG, as a company, were a joy to do business with: never
any problems, always fast and efficient.
What's not to like? Well the performance in rain or with
heavy bugs on the wing is dismal but that's about the only
downside. They can also be had with the brilliant NOAH pilot
ejection system.
(If can afford, or find, a DG800A it's a much better
sailplane).

  #3  
Old May 27th 17, 05:27 AM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
2G
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Posts: 1,439
Default Thinking about buying a DG400

On Friday, May 26, 2017 at 9:22:01 AM UTC-7, wrote:
Hi everyone

I'm thinking about buying a DG400 and I'm looking for opinions. It would be my first self launching glider and I would appreciate any advise. I've seen the market and the price range between 50.00 and 56.000€ with about 140 to 200h engine hours.

I've been reading these days a lot about the ship and I love it. The only problem that I see is the engine: it is not produced any more. What would happen if I have any problem and I couldn't find any spares? I would be useless as motorglider.

Anything you can tell me about it is welcome

Thank you!


The 400 is a great value in the high-performance motorglider sector. I owned one for over 10 years and flew it for 1500 hours. Unlike Dave, I had a steady stream of maintenance issues involving:

1. Ignition module and coil failure (I had to wind my own)
2. Prop mast mounting bolt breakage (which led to a US AD)
3. Starter motor failure (twice)
4. Carb problems (knowing how to troubleshoot is a must)
5. DEI failure
6. Uncommanded gear collapse (I added a positive gear lock)
7. Dive brake handle broke (while on takeoff roll)
8. Leaking fuel shutoff valve
9. Stuck extension motor brake

Starting 2-cycle engines is a skill in its own right; every 400 pilot seems to have his own technique. DG added a primer circuit to ease the process, but this led to its own set of problems.

You will want to join the DG Owners forum (not the DG Solo forum). You will also have to pay the DG "tax" to get support from the factory.

Motorgliders are complex aircraft with their own peculiarities. I upgraded to an ASH26e and have been very impressed (and relieved) about their significantly better reliability as compared to the DG808, but they are not w/o their issues, too. DGs (both the 400s and 800s) are burdened by less than adequate battery capacity. This is why Dave emphasized getting a solar panel. The 26e is far superior in this regard, but it is 2x to 3x the price.

I assume that you are a seasoned high-performance glider pilot. If not I would suggest getting that experience first in a pure glider. Getting dual instruction in a self-launching MG is problematic.

Good luck!

Tom
  #4  
Old May 27th 17, 06:40 AM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
Bret Hess
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Posts: 121
Default Thinking about buying a DG400

If you like (and have time) to work on planes as well as fly them, you'll likely find the support you need online to keep it flying. I'm speaking from the PIK 20E community which is active in helping each other with the same issues you would face.
  #5  
Old May 27th 17, 02:15 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
Dave Walsh
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Posts: 83
Default Thinking about buying a DG400

I think you will find that as DG actually built the 400 they
support it "free of charge" so there should be no DG "tax" to
pay? Could easily be wrong though, ask your local Agent. Even
if you do have to pay the "DG Tax" it's pittance compared to
the overall ownership costs.

My earlier post perhaps sort of implied total trouble free 400
ownership? But very few things did fail, the starter relay for
one. Naturally the U/C collapsed on landing once, but that's
normal, it's a special DG design feature. Generally I found the
DG400 experience much kinder on the wallet than owning a
DG808C.

The reason I suggested joining the "Solo" forum was to
illustrate that even the newer DG (and other) self launchers
have their problems; for a balanced picture join the ASH26E
group too. You'll soon see that there is no such thing as a
totally reliable pylon powered self launcher.

Dave Walsh

  #6  
Old May 28th 17, 12:39 AM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
2G
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Posts: 1,439
Default Thinking about buying a DG400

On Saturday, May 27, 2017 at 6:30:11 AM UTC-7, Dave Walsh wrote:
I think you will find that as DG actually built the 400 they
support it "free of charge" so there should be no DG "tax" to
pay? Could easily be wrong though, ask your local Agent. Even
if you do have to pay the "DG Tax" it's pittance compared to
the overall ownership costs.

My earlier post perhaps sort of implied total trouble free 400
ownership? But very few things did fail, the starter relay for
one. Naturally the U/C collapsed on landing once, but that's
normal, it's a special DG design feature. Generally I found the
DG400 experience much kinder on the wallet than owning a
DG808C.

The reason I suggested joining the "Solo" forum was to
illustrate that even the newer DG (and other) self launchers
have their problems; for a balanced picture join the ASH26E
group too. You'll soon see that there is no such thing as a
totally reliable pylon powered self launcher.

Dave Walsh


Well, Dave, you need to think again. DG calls the tax a "service agreement", which costs 425 euro to setup and 245 euro per year to maintain (for the affected models):

https://www.dg-flugzeugbau.de/en/mai...rvice-contract

Tom
  #7  
Old May 28th 17, 12:44 AM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
2G
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 1,439
Default Thinking about buying a DG400

On Friday, May 26, 2017 at 10:40:27 PM UTC-7, Bret Hess wrote:
If you like (and have time) to work on planes as well as fly them, you'll likely find the support you need online to keep it flying. I'm speaking from the PIK 20E community which is active in helping each other with the same issues you would face.


If I were buying a 400 again I would probably factor in the cost of an engine overhaul to zero time it. In the US this will probably cost $4,000, give or take; can't say what it would cost in Europe, but owners on the forum would know.

The annual maintain would probably be comparable to what it takes to keep the 808 flying. The maintenance itself is not complicated, but it does take some mechanical ability.

Tom
  #8  
Old May 28th 17, 11:59 AM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
[email protected]
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Posts: 2
Default Thinking about buying a DG400

Thank you everyone for your help, I really appreciate it!

First of all, although I am a comerial pilot, my experience in pure sailplanes is very little (don´t reach 100h). Do you recommend me to wait to have more experience in pure sailplane before making the transition?

Second point, I´m not very handy, I don´t have any type of experience in mechanics so any problem the plane has I would have to go to a workshop. Is that a big inconvenience? This problem would happen to me with any type of glider that I buy. I must make my mind that if I buy a glider I will speed more mony than the average because I wouldn´t do anything.

Third and last point. I´ve also been thinking about buying a PIK20E. I´ve seen one with 1500H and 147 engine hours. It is cheapper than the DG400 but the drawback is that it has a 3000h limit which cannot be extended because the manufacturer no longer exist. This means that if i buy it, and in the future I want to change to a higher performance glider, it would be very difficult to sell it (or simply impossible as it get closer to the 3000h). Another negative is that if it need more maintenance that other plane it wouldn't be a good choice for me because as I've set before, I don't have any experience with mechanics.

Alfonso
  #9  
Old May 28th 17, 02:14 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
Dave Nadler
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Posts: 1,610
Default Thinking about buying a DG400

On Sunday, May 28, 2017 at 6:59:29 AM UTC-4, wrote:
First of all, although I am a comerial pilot, my experience in pure
sailplanes is very little (don´t reach 100h). Do you recommend me to
wait to have more experience in pure sailplane before making the transition?


YES.
To be able to safely focus on engine management (and especially when things
go wrong), flying the glider must be completely automatic. Regardless of
power experience, you are not at this point with less than 100 hours.

Second point, I´m not very handy, I don´t have any type of experience
in mechanics so any problem the plane has I would have to go to a workshop.
Is that a big inconvenience?


YES.
Identify someone nearby with extensive experience maintaining the type
you expect to buy. Hint: There isn't likely to be anybody...
And maintenance of these machines by folks not intimately familiar
with the type often goes very badly.

This problem would happen to me with any type of glider that I buy.


NO.
Any motor-glider will require MUCH more (and more specialized) maintenance
as compared to a non-motorized glider.

Hope that helps,
Best Regards, Dave "YO" (multiple offender, 2000 hrs in motor-gliders)
  #10  
Old May 28th 17, 04:17 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
[email protected][_2_]
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Posts: 13
Default Thinking about buying a DG400

On 27/05/2017 23:15, Dave Walsh wrote:
I think you will find that as DG actually built the 400 they
support it "free of charge" so there should be no DG "tax" to
pay? Could easily be wrong though, ask your local Agent. Even
if you do have to pay the "DG Tax" it's pittance compared to
the overall ownership costs.


Yes. You're wrong.

The 400 was built by Glaser-Dirks and you'll pay the tax. The DG-800A
and even my (early) 800B pays it. The cutoff date is around 1994-6 for DGs.


My earlier post perhaps sort of implied total trouble free 400
ownership? But very few things did fail, the starter relay for
one. Naturally the U/C collapsed on landing once, but that's
normal, it's a special DG design feature. Generally I found the
DG400 experience much kinder on the wallet than owning a
DG808C.

The reason I suggested joining the "Solo" forum was to
illustrate that even the newer DG (and other) self launchers
have their problems; for a balanced picture join the ASH26E
group too. You'll soon see that there is no such thing as a
totally reliable pylon powered self launcher.

Dave Walsh



--
GC
 




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