Piper Commanche vs Money 201

"Dan Luke" wrote in message
...
"Jeff" wrote:
The gamiJectors say you can run lean of peak, but when I tried it, I
seemed to lose some airspeed,...

Which you should. LOP is for fuel efficiency and cool CHT's; it does not
produce peak power.

... so I lean to 12 gph which is just a
tiny bit ROP, that seems to be the best mixture setting for me.

That's close to peak power.
--
In that case the engine runs hotter and plug fouling is much more likely.

"Jeff" wrote in message
...
the tape you get with the gami jectors is not very good, but the guy
basically says that you can go lean of peak and not lose power. He even
demostrates it in his bonanza.
Also I have always been told that running lean will increase your CHT's,
running rich will keep your temps down. But gami says that using their
injectors you can run lean and not have a temp problem. I like ROP for the
power and because gas is cheaper then cylinders.

Thing is, you're doing MORE DAMAGE to your cylinders.

http://www.avweb.com/news/columns/182084-1.html

what makes me nervous is that the engine does not get rough, I was assuming due to the
gami's, so I am not sure where the cut off point would be. I have leaned it to 8 gph and
the engine was still running fine, but that just seems to much

Ron Rosenfeld wrote:

On Sun, 23 Nov 2003 00:44:32 -0800, Jeff wrote:

I have played with leaning, did it as gami suggested, by running LOP I am down to
about 8-9 GPH which seems really low. I have an insight engine monitor which I use
when leaning. Leaning that much makes me nervous, I always feel like I will kill
the engine.

If your GAMI's are perfectly matched, you should kill the engine before
noting any roughness! But I don't think I would be nervous at those
settings. Besides, you could always enrichen and restart the engine.

I don't have a fuel flow meter, nor do I have GAMI's, but when I want to
fly economically, I will generally lean until all cylinders have shown a
one bar drop (from peak EGT) on my Insight GEM. This equates to 25-50°
LOP. At that setting, I'm generally burning 7-7.5 gph on my four cylinder
engine. That number is based on measuring how much fuel it takes to fill
the tank per unit time, not on a fuel flow meter.

If I had a fuel flow meter, I would probably be more aggressive about
adding back power.

the 12 gph is probably right about 50 degrees ROP, 13 will make it
about 100 degree's ROP.

At least for a Lycoming IO360, that's about the worst place to run it so
far as cylinder pressures and CHT's are concerned.

I am flying sunday morning to cedar city UT to practice some instrument approaches
with my new garmin 430 so will take the time to really mess with the leaning.

But I thought that by going lean, then increasing MP to get back lost power would
put more stress on the engine thus making it run at a higher output.

I believe your understanding is incorrect. My understanding is that one of
the advantages of running LOP is that you are decreasing the *rate* of burn
of the fuel. This, in turn, reduces *peak* cylinder pressure which is felt
to be an important factor in cylinder damage. By increasing the MP to get
back lost power , you must, of course, put "more stress on the engine" but
it is still *less* stress than you would get by running the same power ROP
by increasing the fuel flow using your mixture control.

Braley, the head of GAMI, reports that he routinely runs his TN'd Bonanza
at 85% power LOP.

I have a turbo, so I only fly at 65% power to keep the temps down since I dont have
an intercooler. All the other t-arrow owners I know said by flying at 75% power
they have cracked alot of cylinders. so the way I have been doing it was after
getting to cruise altitude, I would lean to about 12 gph which is consistant with
65% power.
But hell, I may have been doing it all wrong knowing me

BTW I think your mooney or the 201 has the same engine I have, I have to look and
see for sure. Its the TSIO-360-FB, 6 cylinder, fuel injected and rated at 215 HP in
some airplanes.


No, my Mooney has a Lycoming IO360A1A -- a four cylinder, fuel injected
engine. It is rated at 200hp.

GAMI has an engine management course that others have found valuable. In
addition, John Deakin has some articles on AVWEB (his column is called
Pelican Perch) which speak directly to the point you are wrestling with.

Ron (EPM) (N5843Q, Mooney M20E) (CP, ASEL, ASES, IA)

you dont go full throttle on a turbo charged engine with a fixed wastegate. th eonly
time when you will see full throttle (this includes take off, take off in a t-arrow you
only use 41' mp then reduce power to 75% for cruise climb) is when you start to reach
critical altitude for the turbo charger, then you can add RPM to regain more power.

Stu Gotts wrote:

Full throttle, use the mixture to control MP and the prop to control
speed. If the engine doesn't have any induction leaks, LOP is a
possibility without any problems, BUT you should know where you're
running. You're looking for a good balance. Lycomings generally have
good induction systems, the GAMI's help the big bore Continentals.

On Sun, 23 Nov 2003 00:44:32 -0800, Jeff wrote:

I have played with leaning, did it as gami suggested, by running LOP I am down to
about 8-9 GPH which seems really low. I have an insight engine monitor which I use
when leaning. Leaning that much makes me nervous, I always feel like I will kill
the engine. the 12 gph is probably right about 50 degrees ROP, 13 will make it
about 100 degree's ROP.
I am flying sunday morning to cedar city UT to practice some instrument approaches
with my new garmin 430 so will take the time to really mess with the leaning.

But I thought that by going lean, then increasing MP to get back lost power would
put more stress on the engine thus making it run at a higher output.
I have a turbo, so I only fly at 65% power to keep the temps down since I dont have
an intercooler. All the other t-arrow owners I know said by flying at 75% power
they have cracked alot of cylinders. so the way I have been doing it was after
getting to cruise altitude, I would lean to about 12 gph which is consistant with
65% power.
But hell, I may have been doing it all wrong knowing me

BTW I think your mooney or the 201 has the same engine I have, I have to look and
see for sure. Its the TSIO-360-FB, 6 cylinder, fuel injected and rated at 215 HP in
some airplanes.

Jeff
http://www.turboarrow3.com


Ron Rosenfeld wrote:

On Sat, 22 Nov 2003 16:10:07 -0800, Jeff wrote:

The gamiJectors say you can run lean of peak, but when I tried it, I seemed to
lose some airspeed, so I lean to 12 gph which is just a tiny bit ROP, thats
seems to be the best mixture setting for me.

Jeff,

I don't have GAMIJECTORS but have read quite a bit about them. So let me
say the following but, by all means, check with Braley or someone you
respect as knowledgeable.

By running LOP you are running more efficiently -- by that I mean you
produce more HP per unit of fuel consumed. However, as you have noted,
leaning the mixture that far will reduce the total power produced, and you
will certainly see a drop in airspeed.

If by "running a tiny bit ROP" you mean in the range of 25-50° ROP EGT,
that is a baaad place to run an engine. CHT's are higher, and cylinder
pressures are also higher than at other settings. IF you are going to run
ROP, you should try to run around 100-125° ROP.

An alternate method of maintaining the increased BSFC, lower temperatures,
and lower cylinder pressures you obtain by running LOP EGT, if possible
with your setup, would be to, for example, set your power to 65%; lean to
25-50° LOP EGT; and then, instead of using the mixture control to get your
12 gph, use your throttle! That regains the power you lost while
maintaining the benefits of running LOP! You might find you need less than
12 gph to regain your lost airspeed. (GAMI should have a multiplier for
the fuel flow in your engine which you can use to determine HP from fuel
flow).

Ron (EPM) (N5843Q, Mooney M20E) (CP, ASEL, ASES, IA)

Right, I know what they are suppose to do, but losing power and then
regaining it by adding MP does not seem right.

the gami's still have benefit because the cylinders all peak about the same
time and they pretty much stay the same generating more efficency

they do not offer any operational techniques. You do not get much in the
gami package, some forms to fill out after you do a test and send it back
into them and the video tape.

In a turbo charged engine, running rich is recommended to help keep the
engine cool. leaning is not done at all untill you get to cruise altitude.
remember, turbo charged engines and non aspirated engines are are flown
differently. My previous airplane - a cherokee 180 was a no brainer and easy
to lean.
I have gone through different settings with my mechanic, he taught me alot
about how the engine runs.

Dan Luke wrote:

"Jeff" wrote:
the tape you get with the gami jectors is not very good, but
the guy basically says that you can go lean of peak and not
lose power. He even demostrates it in his bonanza.

You are having problems understanding because you are over-generalizing.
What the guy says is true for partricular power settings and CHTs. The
value of Gamis is that they allow you to run at a lower fuel flow with
lower CHTs while making the same power that you would at ~100 deg ROP.
If you insist on running at a peak power mixture setting, Gamis are of
little value to you.

Also I have always been told that running lean will increase your
CHT's, running rich will keep your temps down.

You have been told a half truth, at best.

But gami says that using their
injectors you can run lean and not have a temp problem.

They are correct, but you must not over-simplify what they are saying.
You must have proper engine instrumentation and follow their operational
techniques. If you do, you may run LOP and have cooler cylinders.

I like ROP for the
power...

Then why did you buy the Gamis?

...and because gas is cheaper then cylinders.

The setting you use, peak power, is the worst of all for cylinder stress
and produces the very highest CHTs.
--
Dan
C172RG at BFM

"Jeff" wrote:
I have leaned it to 8 gph and the engine was still running fine,
but that just seems to much.

Why?
--
Dan
C172RG at BFM

he is discussing a normally aspirated engine.
there are other articles on avweb dealing with turbo's that I have read.

"Tom S." wrote:

"Jeff" wrote in message
...
the tape you get with the gami jectors is not very good, but the guy
basically says that you can go lean of peak and not lose power. He even
demostrates it in his bonanza.
Also I have always been told that running lean will increase your CHT's,
running rich will keep your temps down. But gami says that using their
injectors you can run lean and not have a temp problem. I like ROP for the
power and because gas is cheaper then cylinders.

Thing is, you're doing MORE DAMAGE to your cylinders.

http://www.avweb.com/news/columns/182084-1.html

On Sun, 23 Nov 2003 08:49:28 -0800, Jeff wrote:

what makes me nervous is that the engine does not get rough, I was assuming due to the
gami's, so I am not sure where the cut off point would be. I have leaned it to 8 gph and
the engine was still running fine, but that just seems to much

How many degrees LOP are you at 8 or 9 gph?


Ron (EPM) (N5843Q, Mooney M20E) (CP, ASEL, ASES, IA)

"Jeff" wrote in message
...
he is discussing a normally aspirated engine.
there are other articles on avweb dealing with turbo's that I have read.


Concept is the same, and the techniques/results are the same. The NA vs
/turbo differences are more a matter of when you do what.

"Tom S." wrote:

"Jeff" wrote in message
...
the tape you get with the gami jectors is not very good, but the guy
basically says that you can go lean of peak and not lose power. He
even
demostrates it in his bonanza.
Also I have always been told that running lean will increase your
CHT's,
running rich will keep your temps down. But gami says that using
their
injectors you can run lean and not have a temp problem. I like ROP for
the
power and because gas is cheaper then cylinders.

Thing is, you're doing MORE DAMAGE to your cylinders.

http://www.avweb.com/news/columns/182084-1.html

On Sun, 23 Nov 2003 08:54:34 -0800, Jeff wrote:

you dont go full throttle on a turbo charged engine with a fixed wastegate. th eonly
time when you will see full throttle (this includes take off, take off in a t-arrow you
only use 41' mp then reduce power to 75% for cruise climb) is when you start to reach
critical altitude for the turbo charger, then you can add RPM to regain more power.

Correct! I was speaking about N/A, sorry.