A aviation & planes forum. AviationBanter

If this is your first visit, be sure to check out the FAQ by clicking the link above. You may have to register before you can post: click the register link above to proceed. To start viewing messages, select the forum that you want to visit from the selection below.

Go Back   Home » AviationBanter forum » rec.aviation newsgroups » Soaring
Site Map Home Register Authors List Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read Web Partners

Mapping Glider Locations



 
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #11  
Old June 1st 08, 07:15 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
Scott[_7_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 256
Default Mapping Glider Locations

COLIN LAMB wrote:



Response: See http://info.aprs.net/index.php?title=ControlOperator


Colin Lamb K7FM (licensed in 1959)



OK, I'm not trying to argue with you, but I'd wager in a court of law,
the FCC rules would take precidence over an aprs website wiki. Of
course, individual interpretation of FCC rules has always existed. I
have not used aprs, so I need to ask a question. Does an amateur radio
callsign need to be supplied to the aprs software? If so, I assume that
is the call sent out in the packets. If so, the person that holds that
callsign is responsible for the transmission. Would you be willing to
have your call in use with hundreds of aprs installations in gliders (or
anywhere else) being operated by unlicensed individuals? Not me!

Scott
N0EDV
Ads
  #12  
Old June 1st 08, 07:32 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
COLIN LAMB
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 94
Default Mapping Glider Locations

"97.5 Station license grant required.
(a) The station apparatus MUST BE UNDER THE PHYSICAL CONTROL of a person
named in an amateur station license grant on the ULS consolidated
license database or a person authorized for alien reciprocal operation
by 97.107 of this part, before the station may transmit on any amateur
service frequency from any place that is:"

Response: N1547C set up a track just as I mentioned and the control
operator was not on the aircraft. The FCC knew about it (many years ago)
and thee were no problems. You do not need to be physically present at a
transmitter site to have physical control over the amateur station. For
example, I can place my station remotely and use a link to operate it. In
that case, I have physical control over it and am in compliance with part
97. Similarly, I can have a telephone nearby and a person present and make
a telephone call to tell the person to turn the transmitter off. I am the
control operator and the transmitter is under the physical control of me.

If I turn the APRS transmitter on before flight, then turn it off after the
flight, there is no question that I am in control, as long as I have a radio
link with the non-ham pilot to be able to tell him to turn off the APRS
transmitter, or I can turn it off after the flight. It need not be
immediate. This assumes the non ham is not able to change frequency or use
a mike or other things - which would not happen in an APRS installation. A
sanitary installation would have everything in a sealed box, with just an
on-off switch.

A "gray" area would occur if the non-ham operator could arbitrarily turn the
APRS unit on, but there are "work arounds". If the transmitter is connected
to the ignition switch of the aircraft, so that being turned on is
incidental to the operation of the aircraft, then it could be argued that
the non-ham does not have control. And, it would ber better if the on-off
switch was not resetable, which means it could be turned off, but not turned
on.

It also could go into a sleep mode, unless the aircraft was moving and never
be turned on by the non-ham. When the pilot returned to where th eham was,
it could be shut off.

Hams have been operating in "gray" areas for years and it is not a big
issue. I operate a ham repeater and have for decades. For some period of
time, they operated in a gray area. Similarly, hams have been connecting to
the internet for years, even though that is also a gray area.

Colin Lamb


  #13  
Old June 1st 08, 07:36 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
COLIN LAMB
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 94
Default Mapping Glider Locations

"I doubt you'd have to. If the transmitter power is turned off, no
position reports could be sent out."

Response: it was a joke.


  #14  
Old June 1st 08, 07:53 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
COLIN LAMB
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 94
Default Mapping Glider Locations

"OK, I'm not trying to argue with you, but I'd wager in a court of law,
the FCC rules would take precidence over an aprs website wiki. Of
course, individual interpretation of FCC rules has always existed. I
have not used aprs, so I need to ask a question. Does an amateur radio
callsign need to be supplied to the aprs software? If so, I assume that
is the call sent out in the packets. If so, the person that holds that
callsign is responsible for the transmission. Would you be willing to
have your call in use with hundreds of aprs installations in gliders (or
anywhere else) being operated by unlicensed individuals? Not me!"

Certainly the FCC rules take precedence. And, as I explained in another
post, there can be some gray areas, depending upon how they are implemented.
The FCC knows what is going on and has inpliedly consented by doing nothing.
There must be a control operator and his or her callsign would be embedded
in each digital transmission. That would be the callsign of the control
operator. If there is any violation, it is the control operator that gets
called on the carpet.

Certain rules are inflexible for hams. First, they cannot charge for their
activities. So, any installation would have to be unconpensated on the part
of the amateur. Secondly, it could not be used in a commercial activity.
Both of these rules could be met in most sailplane installations. The
amateur would have to be familiar with the rules and decide how much control
he or she wanted. Control could be fairly simple. Your neighbor ham could
install and turn it on as you left for the airport, it could go into sleep
mode when you finished your flight and he could turn it off when you
returned home. In the meantime, your wife could watch your flight on the
internet on www.findu.com The soaring pilot might find this so useful, he
could become a ham so he could control things himself.

We have tried APRS in our search operation and I have sent out unlicensed
searchers with my call embedded in their transmitter. We actually have a
number of hams who are SAR members, so we are never far away from a control
operator.

I would not and do not intend to let hundeds of installations use my call in
APRS installations, but under the right circumstances would have no problem
installing the equipment in selected gliders at the appropraite time.

As to my ability to interpret the FCC rules, I am also a lawyer and am
comfortable dealing with "gray" areas - especially when there is public
benefit.

Colin Lamb


  #15  
Old June 1st 08, 08:17 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
Scott[_7_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 256
Default Mapping Glider Locations

COLIN LAMB wrote:
"OK, I'm not trying to argue with you, but I'd wager in a court of law,
the FCC rules would take precidence over an aprs website wiki. Of
course, individual interpretation of FCC rules has always existed. I
have not used aprs, so I need to ask a question. Does an amateur radio
callsign need to be supplied to the aprs software? If so, I assume that
is the call sent out in the packets. If so, the person that holds that
callsign is responsible for the transmission. Would you be willing to
have your call in use with hundreds of aprs installations in gliders (or
anywhere else) being operated by unlicensed individuals? Not me!"

Certainly the FCC rules take precedence. And, as I explained in another
post, there can be some gray areas, depending upon how they are implemented.
The FCC knows what is going on and has inpliedly consented by doing nothing.
There must be a control operator and his or her callsign would be embedded
in each digital transmission. That would be the callsign of the control
operator. If there is any violation, it is the control operator that gets
called on the carpet.


Exactly. That is why I wondered if you had objections to the
possibility of having your call used by Joe Public so to speak.

Certain rules are inflexible for hams. First, they cannot charge for their
activities. So, any installation would have to be unconpensated on the part
of the amateur. Secondly, it could not be used in a commercial activity.
Both of these rules could be met in most sailplane installations. The
amateur would have to be familiar with the rules and decide how much control
he or she wanted. Control could be fairly simple. Your neighbor ham could
install and turn it on as you left for the airport, it could go into sleep
mode when you finished your flight and he could turn it off when you
returned home. In the meantime, your wife could watch your flight on the
internet on www.findu.com The soaring pilot might find this so useful, he
could become a ham so he could control things himself.

We have tried APRS in our search operation and I have sent out unlicensed
searchers with my call embedded in their transmitter. We actually have a
number of hams who are SAR members, so we are never far away from a control
operator.

I would not and do not intend to let hundeds of installations use my call in
APRS installations, but under the right circumstances would have no problem
installing the equipment in selected gliders at the appropraite time.

As to my ability to interpret the FCC rules, I am also a lawyer and am
comfortable dealing with "gray" areas - especially when there is public
benefit.


OK, but to me PERSONALLY, I take "gray areas" as "indeterminate and
intermediate in character" (Webster's Universal College Dictionary)
meaning that while something may not be specifically illegal, it may not
necessarily be specifically legal either. This is the area where
lawyers dwell (as noted in an old Don Henley song). It sounds to me
that gray areas tend to be used by people that are after something that
is good for them rather than good for the public in general.

I'm not saying you can't do this, but my conscience says it's not the
intent of the FCC rules to let any Tom, Dick or Harry use amateur
frequncies on a continuing basis without obtaining a proper license. We
could debate this for decades, but would end up in the same spot in the
end (unless the FCC ever decides this is an abuse of license privileges
and specifically spells it out as legal or illegal). The wiki source
you provided suggests asking the ARRL for guidance and NOT to ask the
FCC. This is their way of saying "Let a sleeping dog lie." And this
implies to me that they are suggesting operating on the fringe of the
law. I think allowing non-hams to operate in the ham bands is not a
good thing for the amateur service, but that's just my opinion. After
all, it's not hard to get a license these days.

Scott
N0EDV

Colin Lamb


  #16  
Old June 1st 08, 09:00 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
COLIN LAMB
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 94
Default Mapping Glider Locations

"I'm not saying you can't do this, but my conscience says it's not the
intent of the FCC rules to let any Tom, Dick or Harry use amateur
frequncies on a continuing basis without obtaining a proper license. We
could debate this for decades, but would end up in the same spot in the
end (unless the FCC ever decides this is an abuse of license privileges
and specifically spells it out as legal or illegal). The wiki source
you provided suggests asking the ARRL for guidance and NOT to ask the
FCC. This is their way of saying "Let a sleeping dog lie." And this
implies to me that they are suggesting operating on the fringe of the
law. I think allowing non-hams to operate in the ham bands is not a
good thing for the amateur service, but that's just my opinion. After
all, it's not hard to get a license these days."

Response: And, you are implying that glider pilots never operate in a gray
area. They do. One example is in the limitations of experimental aircraft.
Some things are set in stone. Others are not. There are numerous examples
of gray areas when it comes to flight. There was a discussion sometime ago
about whether a tow plane could tow a glider operating as an ultralight.

Let me give you a simple and realistic example of where APRS could be used
and there would be no gray area. You and your friend are glider pilots.
You are a ham and your friend is not. You decide to fly cross-country
together. You bring along two self contained APRS boxes. You place one box
in his aircraft and turn it on. You place the others in your aircraft and
turn it on. You leave a receive only unit at the airport connected to a GPS
with built in terrain mapping. Your friend tells his spouse that she can
follow your flight on a Google map on the internet at www.findu.com . Then,
you fly. During flight, you will be able to see your soaring companion on
your GPS screen. It makes the cross-country more enjoyable and safer. The
guys back at the airport can watch your progress with envy. At end of the
day, you return back to your home airport and land. You go over to him,
congratulate him on the successful flight, then shut the APRS beacon off and
remove from aircraft to take home with you. Then, you go have a beer.

Your friend's wife then notes that you returned to the airport at 4:45 pm
but did not get home until 7:30 pm, says the dinner is cold andwonders where
he spent the intervening 2 hours and 45 minutes.

Your friend says he is never going to use APRS again, or at least not let
his wife know about it.

Colin Lamb




  #17  
Old June 2nd 08, 01:30 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
jodom
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 7
Default Mapping Glider Locations

Colin,

I'm a glider pilot and a ham. I read the opinions on your wiki and on
this thread. I'd be comfortable going out to the field and setting up
a tracker for a particular flight and taking the system home at the
end of the day, but there's no way I would set one up as a permanent
installation in a glider. The point of being control operator is that
you are in control of the transmissions. A permanent installation in
someone else's airplane is in no way remaining in control of the
radio, even if you could theoretically ask them politely to let you
disengage or modify the system.

The right way to do this (and it is a good idea that I hope catches
on) is to find another piece of spectrum intended for this use and to
get a proper license to use it. Operating in "grey areas" is not
where a responsible ham or pilot should be.

Respectfully,

Joel Odom
W4LL
http://joelodom.blogspot.com/


On Jun 1, 4:00 pm, "COLIN LAMB" wrote:
"I'm not saying you can't do this, but my conscience says it's not the
intent of the FCC rules to let any Tom, Dick or Harry use amateur
frequncies on a continuing basis without obtaining a proper license. We
could debate this for decades, but would end up in the same spot in the
end (unless the FCC ever decides this is an abuse of license privileges
and specifically spells it out as legal or illegal). The wiki source
you provided suggests asking the ARRL for guidance and NOT to ask the
FCC. This is their way of saying "Let a sleeping dog lie." And this
implies to me that they are suggesting operating on the fringe of the
law. I think allowing non-hams to operate in the ham bands is not a
good thing for the amateur service, but that's just my opinion. After
all, it's not hard to get a license these days."

Response: And, you are implying that glider pilots never operate in a gray
area. They do. One example is in the limitations of experimental aircraft.
Some things are set in stone. Others are not. There are numerous examples
of gray areas when it comes to flight. There was a discussion sometime ago
about whether a tow plane could tow a glider operating as an ultralight.

Let me give you a simple and realistic example of where APRS could be used
and there would be no gray area. You and your friend are glider pilots.
You are a ham and your friend is not. You decide to fly cross-country
together. You bring along two self contained APRS boxes. You place one box
in his aircraft and turn it on. You place the others in your aircraft and
turn it on. You leave a receive only unit at the airport connected to a GPS
with built in terrain mapping. Your friend tells his spouse that she can
follow your flight on a Google map on the internet atwww.findu.com. Then,
you fly. During flight, you will be able to see your soaring companion on
your GPS screen. It makes the cross-country more enjoyable and safer. The
guys back at the airport can watch your progress with envy. At end of the
day, you return back to your home airport and land. You go over to him,
congratulate him on the successful flight, then shut the APRS beacon off and
remove from aircraft to take home with you. Then, you go have a beer.

Your friend's wife then notes that you returned to the airport at 4:45 pm
but did not get home until 7:30 pm, says the dinner is cold andwonders where
he spent the intervening 2 hours and 45 minutes.

Your friend says he is never going to use APRS again, or at least not let
his wife know about it.

Colin Lamb


  #18  
Old June 2nd 08, 02:22 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
COLIN LAMB
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 94
Default Mapping Glider Locations

Hello Joel:

The original post was not for the purpose of encouraging a non-ham to have a
permanent APRS installation. The point of the original post was to
familiarize those not acquainted with APRS about the possibilities for use
with soaring. It has some real benefit over SPOT in that fellow pilots can
follow each other, even though they do not have internet capability. And,
there is no service fee. I know a number of soaring pilots who are hams.

The post also included the fact that the benefits can be utilized by
non-hams. There is no gray area about that. That was somewhat like a
footnote, since it was not the main purpose of the post. I posted a website
which contained further information, for those that were interested.
Suddenly, The thread turned to "it cannot be done", so that has consumed
much of the content. Note that I did not advocate that a ham should install
hundreds of APRS systems and then walk away. I am going to build a couple
and try them out in my glider and a friend's glider. I am going to turn
them on and turn them off. I did not advocate a permanent installation, and
you yourself admitted you would be comfortable letting a non-ham fly with
one.

In days of old, we went down to the FCC office and had to pass a code test,
with some government official breathing over our shoulder. I did that. No
more. Code has gone away and the written test is no longer taken in an
office. You can memorize the question pool in a day and take the exam - if
there is a benefit from becoming an amateur. APRS might be that benefit.

In essence, the thread started selling the benefits of amateur radio,
demonstrating that amateur radio can provide safety and convenience to the
glider pilot. It was not to promote an outlaw operation. The FCC knows
exactly what is going on with APRS and has not handed down one adverse
ruling, letter or public statement even suggesting anything that I advanced
in my statements is in a gray area. I expect the reason is that they wish
to advance technology and promote technical growth. Remember that the
original application of APRS was a unit that was placed on a non-ham. I
recall it was a blind runner in a marathon. As a result of this experiment,
APRS is now used by many agencies and services.

Colin Lamb


  #19  
Old July 30th 08, 03:02 AM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
J a c k
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 61
Default Mapping Glider Locations

COLIN LAMB wrote:
"97.5 Station license grant required.
(a) The station apparatus MUST BE UNDER THE PHYSICAL CONTROL of a person
named in an amateur station license grant on the ULS consolidated
license database or a person authorized for alien reciprocal operation
by 97.107 of this part, before the station may transmit on any amateur
service frequency from any place that is:"



Is it a good idea to rely on continued operation in a "gray area" when
dealing with either the FCC or the FAA? Unfortunately, both systems are
set up to encourage exactly that, with varying Reg. interpretations and
enforcement priorities from one region to another.


How about this?

97.109 Station control.

(a) Each amateur station must have at least one control point.
(b) When a station is being locally controlled, the control
operator must be at the control point.



Jack
 




Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
2009 U.S. Contest Locations/Dates Tim[_2_] Soaring 2 February 28th 08 05:48 PM
ICAO Locations [email protected] Piloting 1 July 2nd 06 04:06 PM
buno or c/n number locations... Gene Naval Aviation 0 March 31st 04 05:36 AM
DC-3 Locations RobbelothE Military Aviation 11 March 30th 04 03:36 AM
cabin noise locations & dogs [email protected] Owning 9 August 30th 03 09:26 PM


All times are GMT +1. The time now is 06:44 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.6.4
Copyright ©2000 - 2022, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Copyright 2004-2022 AviationBanter.
The comments are property of their posters.