Compass Correction Card

I have the advantage of reading it in English, no ad hoc translation
required. And yes, it is exactly as I posted above, a compass is on
both the minimum equipment list and on the cloud flying list. Since a
LS1f driver also has a compass on the minimum equipment list, it looks
like the fish is rotting on your side.

-John

On Jan 25, 7:08 am, John Smith wrote:
You doubt correctly. Im my flight manual (the original German one), I
read on page 2-11 (not 2-7) (ad hoc translated by me):

Minimal equipment: airspeed indicator, altimeter, thermometer, radio.
(But *no* compass.)

Additional minimal equipment for cloud flying: turn indicator, compass,
vario.

So there's something fishy with your manual. And yes, no apologies.

Right you are, Kirk. Pilots with instrument ratings can certainly fly
in cloud in the US, if the glider is equipped. I'm not, and it isn't,
so I don't, and I forgot.

The point of the question, though, was if the glider is equipped and
the T&B goes kaput, if you're an idiot can you placard the T&B
"inoperative" as per AC 91-67 and still legally go fly in cloud?

-John

On Jan 24, 3:06 pm, "kirk.stant" wrote:
On Jan 24, 7:42 am, jcarlyle wrote:

2) Under the "Additionally for Cloud Flying" paragraph of the LS8 MEL
a turn and bank indicator is listed. Does AC 91-67 imply that I can
placard a T&B "inoperative" in 1/8" high letters and go look at the
interior of clouds (disregarding for the moment that it isn't legal to
fly a glider in clouds in the US)?

-John

Actually, if the glider is properly equipped, and the pilot is
qualified, it is totally legal to fly in clouds in the US - you just
have to have an IFR clearance if it's in controlled airspace. Not
common, but I know of at least one Nimbus 3 driver who does it down in
Florida.

Theoretically, there are some bits of uncontrolled airspace in the
West where you could fly IMC (equipped and qualified, of course)
without a clearance - but they are pretty hard to find!

This has been discussed previously on RAS, I believe.

Meanwhile, I have a nice pretty compass card in my cockpit, just for
grins (I actually swung the compass one non-soarable day). Don't use
it, though...

Kirk
66

On Jan 25, 8:17*am, jcarlyle wrote:
Right you are, Kirk. Pilots with instrument ratings can certainly fly
in cloud in the US, if the glider is equipped. I'm not, and it isn't,
so I don't, and I forgot.

The point of the question, though, was if the glider is equipped and
the T&B goes kaput, if you're an idiot can you placard the T&B
"inoperative" as per AC 91-67 and still legally go fly in cloud?

-John

On Jan 24, 3:06 pm, "kirk.stant" wrote:



On Jan 24, 7:42 am, jcarlyle wrote:

2) Under the "Additionally for Cloud Flying" paragraph of the LS8 MEL
a turn and bank indicator is listed. Does AC 91-67 imply that I can
placard a T&B "inoperative" in 1/8" high letters and go look at the
interior of clouds (disregarding for the moment that it isn't legal to
fly a glider in clouds in the US)?

-John

Actually, if the glider is properly equipped, and the pilot is
qualified, it is totally legal to fly in clouds in the US - you just
have to have an IFR clearance if it's in controlled airspace. *Not
common, but I know of at least one Nimbus 3 driver who does it down in
Florida.

Theoretically, there are some bits of uncontrolled airspace in the
West where you could fly IMC (equipped and qualified, of course)
without a clearance - but they are pretty hard to find!

This has been discussed previously on RAS, I believe.

Meanwhile, I have a nice pretty compass card in my cockpit, just for
grins (I actually swung the compass one non-soarable day). Don't use
it, though...

Kirk
66- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

no, if an instrument is on the required instrument list for a certain
type of operation then it must be installed and working. if it is not
on the required instrument list then it can be non-working and
placarded inoperative.

Am 25.01.10 15:11, schrieb jcarlyle:
I have the advantage of reading it in English, no ad hoc translation
required. And yes, it is exactly as I posted above, a compass is on
both the minimum equipment list and on the cloud flying list. Since a
LS1f driver also has a compass on the minimum equipment list, it looks
like the fish is rotting on your side.

A bit harsh, considering the German manual is the one on on which the LS
8 has been type certified. So maybe your FAA has added something to the
requirements, or maybe you're talking about a motorised LS8.

This makes total sense! So what's the deal with AC 91-67 (brought up
by Tony V above)? AC 91-67 seems to be a total red herring - it
contradicts the sensible interpretation of a MEL and seemingly permits
a pilot to do something stupid.

-John

On Jan 25, 9:36 am, Tony wrote:
no, if an instrument is on the required instrument list for a certain
type of operation then it must be installed and working. if it is not
on the required instrument list then it can be non-working and
placarded inoperative.

Ah, well, there you're wrong again. The LS8 wasn't FAA type certified
on the German manual, but rather on the English one, according to the
references in the TCDS. The TCDS came about 2 years after my plane was
built, too. The manual I'm quoting refers to the motorless version,
and it definitely has a compass in the MEL.

-John

On Jan 25, 9:39 am, John Smith wrote:
A bit harsh, considering the German manual is the one on on which the LS
8 has been type certified. So maybe your FAA has added something to the
requirements, or maybe you're talking about a motorised LS8.

I think you are getting confused between an Equipment List and a
Minimum Equipment list (definition i in Section 6 of the AC). In the
FAA's eyes, your glider has an Equipment List which is provided by the
manufacturer and lists the equipment which must be installed and
working for any type of operation.

A Minimum Equipment List is a list of equipment that can be
inoperative under certain conditions and it also specifies the manner
in which the equipment must be de-activated (definition p in section 6
of the AC). I think it would be a fair bet that there is not a single
glider in the US that has an MEL.

MEL's are mainly used in aircraft in charter and airline service or
other operations where the operator wants to avoid potential headaches
and cancellations that could be caused by instrument or equipment
breakdowns, particularly instrument or equipment breakdowns away from
their maintenance base.

Hope this helps clear muddy water. good news though, the sun is back
out in the middle of the country, spring is coming, we'll all be
flying soon and then we can discuss our amazing flights here on RAS
instead of debating regulation!

Tony

You guys are confusing your type certificate "minimum equipment list"
with a minimum equipment list developed as per AC91 for individual
operators. The MEL list for individual operators is typically seen in
revenue operations but can be approved for anyone. These MEL's that I
have been involved with (hundreds) have restrictions and conditions
under which MEL relief may be used. For example if the weather radar
is MEL'd then the aircraft is restricted from flying on routes with
forecasted thunderstorms or flying at night (this is under part 121
flying where radar is a required item). My involvement with MEL's
leads me to believe that if a required component for cloud flying is
inoperative and relief can be found within the MEL list, there are
probably restrictions such as "no cloud flying" listed beside that
item. I am shocked that any glider pilot has taken the time to
develop a MEL and have it approved by the FSDO. You realize that
every operator must get a MEL approved in order to use it. I
purchased a Cessna 172 ten years ago that amazingly was on a part 135
certificate flying between Long Island an Connecticut. This
particular airplane had a MEL list approved. Once I purchased the
aircraft, the MEL list was no longer applicable unless I had it
approved by the FSDO in my home region and with me listed as the
operator.

So, if the compass is listed on the minimum equipment list on your
type certificate then it must be installed and operational. If
another component such as an electric variometer is NOT listed on your
type certificate but is installed, it may be placarded inop by the
owner. However, the FAA will not let an instrument remain installed
and inoperative without being placarded inop. Should you develop an
MEL and have it approved by your local FSDO you may be able to get
relief on inoperative components that are listed on your type
certificate but I doubt any of us would go to that expense for an
altimeter, variometer and compass.

Am 25.01.10 16:01, schrieb jcarlyle:
Ah, well, there you're wrong again. The LS8 wasn't FAA type certified
on the German manual, but rather on the English one, according to the

If you have missed it: The LS is (was) a German factory, and the LS8 has
been first certified by the German LBA on the basis of JAR-22 (more
precisely: JAR-22, state of October 1985). Neither JAR-22 nor the
original German manual, which has been approved by the certifying
authorities, ask for a compass (or a magnetic direction indicator, as it
is officially called).

So if your manual prescribes one, then the only reason I can see is your
FAA asking for that addition. It is definitely not needed on this side
of the pond.

Thanks, Tony, and lanebush.

The confusion definitely arose because the LS8 manual's Section 10 is
entitled "Minimum Equipment List". From what both of you wrote, this
is not the same as a FAA Minimum Equipment List. I definitely never
developed a FAA MEL and got such approved by a FSDO, so I truly don't
have a FAA MEL as per AC 91-67. But I do have a MEL according to the
Flight Manual!

English as she are spoke (by pilots and regulators)...

-John

On Jan 25, 10:12 am, Tony wrote:
I think you are getting confused between an Equipment List and a
Minimum Equipment list (definition i in Section 6 of the AC). In the
FAA's eyes, your glider has an Equipment List which is provided by the
manufacturer and lists the equipment which must be installed and
working for any type of operation.

A Minimum Equipment List is a list of equipment that can be
inoperative under certain conditions and it also specifies the manner
in which the equipment must be de-activated (definition p in section 6
of the AC). I think it would be a fair bet that there is not a single
glider in the US that has an MEL.

MEL's are mainly used in aircraft in charter and airline service or
other operations where the operator wants to avoid potential headaches
and cancellations that could be caused by instrument or equipment
breakdowns, particularly instrument or equipment breakdowns away from
their maintenance base.

Hope this helps clear muddy water. good news though, the sun is back
out in the middle of the country, spring is coming, we'll all be
flying soon and then we can discuss our amazing flights here on RAS
instead of debating regulation!

Tony