Potential Club Class (US Sports Class) World Team Selection Policy Changes

On Sep 18, 12:38*pm, John Cochrane
wrote:
So it seems those who resisted the establishment of a bona fide Club
Class here in the U.S. have now *******ized it.

How utterly inane and comically predictable!

Ray Cornay

The pilot ranking list shows Ray Cornay flew an LS4 in Region 5 South
in 2008, but has not flown any sports class nationals. (I don't have
"Mike's" last name.) Ray has snarky things to say about people

Dear Mr, Cochrane
With all due respect, only one I see making snarky commentrs seems to
be you.

If you support this proposal, then defend it on the merits, No need
for personal invectives.

Someone please explain if this change is allowed to go through, then
what is the point of club class in the US?

How long is a resonalble period to get a new comp class established?
Is it reasonable to give up after a couple years, especially given the
current economic environment many of us face?


Best regards,
Chuck Patterson
Regaion 5
(Who was looking forward to flying in club class, until now.......)

Just another "not invented here" response from the U.S. Soaring
Community and the powers that be. I am saddened, but not surprised.
The more and more I mull this decision over in my head, the more and
more I beleive in my heart that it is "class warfare" - literally. If
you cannot afford at least a $60k-$80k+++ glider, a bright shniy Cobra
trailer, the cost to insure them, the cost of all the latest
instruments - then just stay out of our way and let the rich boys/sons
of rich boys show you how racing is really done.

I'd like to remind erveryone AND the rules/US Team committees of the
purpose of the FAI for developing the "Club Class" (I may not have the
language 100% correct, but the ideas are).
1) To preserve the value of older racing gliders
2) To offer an "affordable" level of racing that includes racing a the
highest level - the World Championships

With this decision to effectively ditch the Club Class concept for
both a US nationals and for US Team pilot selection, the RC and US
Team Committee have rejected these two seemingly good ideas for these
times of economic uncertainty and difficulty in attracting youth/
younger (say under 45 years old) pilots to racing.

Just to be clear, "Club Class" does not aim to take advantage of huge
european glider club's fleets of older gliders as the name and
discussions here may imply. In fact, many euro glider clubs have gone
right past these older ships and filled their fleets with even newer
glass single seat ships. The fact is that to be really competitive in
Club Class, any pilot in the world had to make a $$$ commitment to
these older ships with all their age and flaws. But it is a great deal
less $$$'s than a new ASG-29.

Rather, "Club Class" is simply the name given to the concept by the
IGC, not a name given to what was actually happening. In fact, very
few if any pilots showed up at any Club Class worlds in ships they
just picked-up/borrowed from their club's hangars. People made the
concious choice to focus on this class, and to spend a lot less money
doing it. If people had the choice here, maybe they would have done
the same. We will never know because the concept was an orphan idea
from the get-go here in the U.S. The "powers that be" had gotten out
of these ships long ago and had/have no interest in preserving the
value and racing utitility of these gliders

If there are not 100's if not 1,000's of these type of ships here in
the U.S. then someone please correct me right now. Whether or not US
Clubs fly these ships in their fleets, there is a huge pool of
potential ships out there to be raced and this decision just makes
this all the more unlikely.

I, personally, would like to send a big thank you to these two
committees for thinking about the value of my club class glider, and
the development of lower cost solutions for myself AND those not so
well funded. I feel very catered to now... As do the owners of the
many hundereds, if not thousands of club class gliders here in the
U.S.

In conclusion, the biggest implication and driving idea behind these
changes seems to be that by opeing in up selection to every pilot and
(nearly) every glider, then we will magically get better results in
this class. The further implication being that the pilots we have sent
to the Club Class WGC's have been sub-standard compared to those we
have sent to the "FAI" Classes.

Well I think that we should be aiming for much better results in EVERY
class, every time, rather than ditching a concept because it did not
work out.

I humbly ask the two committees to critically review the results from
this years two WGC's. One of, if not the, highest placing pilot was in
Club Class. He got there flying Club Class ships despite having to fly
against newer ships that have CLEAR advantages in certain conditions
no matter what the handicaps are in the US Sports Nationals.
Congratualtions to a terrific job Sean!

What the h--l happened to everyone in the FAI Classes? Maybe the
conclusion we should be taking away is that to better prepare U.S.
pilots for racing at the WGC-level, we should be having our racing
system conform to how everyone else flies contests, including by
making a commitment to a stand alone club class.

The one good thing about this is that maybe Sports Class, with many
more "hot" ships and "hot" pilots, will get to fly Uvalde someday....
Or PROBABLY NOT....

A Saddened,
Tim EY

P.S. Maybe we should just disregard class specific scoring for U.S.
team selection and go with straight percentage scores and with all
national scores merged - this would allow for an East West uber
Natioanals as well. It would be easy, and then put the best scoring 12
pilots in contention for the 12 WGC slots every WGC-cycle... I am now
putting my asbestos suit on

On Sep 18, 10:38*am, John Cochrane
wrote:
So it seems those who resisted the establishment of a bona fide Club
Class here in the U.S. have now *******ized it.

How utterly inane and comically predictable!

Ray Cornay

The pilot ranking list shows Ray Cornay flew an LS4 in Region 5 South
in 2008, but has not flown any sports class nationals. (I don't have
"Mike's" last name.) Ray has snarky things to say about people
"resisting the establishment of a bona fide club class", but when we
ran a club class contest in region 5 south 2009, he didn't show up.

And that's the basic problem. Everyone loves the idea of 50 new pilots
duking it out in club class gliders to get on the world team in the
abstract. Alas, it didn't happen in reality. Exactly one *eligible
pilot/glider showed up two years in a row at sports nationals. People
with access to better gliders don't borrow a standard cirrus for their
two week gliding vacations just because some rule said so. And people
like Ray, for whom this whole thing was designed, do not show up.

Before spouting off *we should all go look at the sports class results
athttp://www.ssa.org/members/contestreports/ContestResultsFullDetail.as....

and at the US team ranking list athttp://soaringweb.org/US_Team/HomePage.html

(I gather the updated versions including this year's results will be
up soon.)

These are the sad facts that the US team committee has to deal
with.Should we really send pilots to the worlds based on these
results? Look hard and think what you would do. The SSA built it, they
don't come. At some point you face reality.

The claim that anyone at the US team or rules committee "resisted"
club class is also not founded. *Two club class contests have been
held. Anyone who wants to organize one is welcome to do it. We'll
chalk Ray up as a volunteer to CD the next one.

No, the RC did not destroy the single most successful contest class in
the US (sports class) by passing a rule saying that 2/3 (yes, 2/3) of
the gliders who actually show up can't fly, all based on an unproven
theory. *The SSA came close, by saying that 2/3 of those who show up
can't earn team points. We all should learn from this good but
unsuccessful idea and the world class debacle: you need to grow and
show popularity of a contest class before you commit to it. If you
want club class to succeed, put on a club class regional or super
regional, and show up!

Disclaimer: I had no part in the US team decision, nor do I speak for
the rules committee -- my opinions only.

John Cochrane

I completely agreee with the points that Tim Taylor makes. To
suddenly change the rules by which members are selected for the world
team in the middle of the process is wrong. There is at least one
pilot, Tim Taylor, that had access to a better glider (his ASW-27) and
borrowed a Standard Jantar for his two week vacation to compete in the
Sports Class nationals in order to try to make the world team because
some rule said so. I think you will find that the top competitors
flying club class gliders in the Sports Class nationals are as
dedicated as any of those in the FAI class nationals. If you look at
the numbers, at the Parowan nationals this summer there were 14
competitors flying gliders that qualify for world team Club Class
ranking. This is 2 more that either the number of competitors in the
Open or Standard Class nationals this year and twice as many as in the
World Class nationals. By John Cochrane's reasoning, based on the
numbers, we should combine the rankings from Open, Standard and World
Class nationals to be used to qualify anyone for postions on the world
team in any of the three classes, regardless of the class they
competed in to get the ranking. This would be no different that what
is being proposed in allowing qualification using a current production
racing glider, but at the World meet being only able to race in an
ASW20 at best, based on the IGC 2010 Club Class list,
http://www.fai.org/gliding/system/files/handicaps.pdf. When the US
club class restrictions were first introduced in 2007, the team
committee drafted a letter explaining the reasoning,
http://www.ssa.org/UsTeam/ustc%20pdf...%20Change..pdf.
Part of this letter is as follows:

"Currently in international competition, the choice of gliders for
Club Class (IGC-CC) contests,
the equivalent of U.S. Sports Class (US-SC) contests, is limited to
those whose performance is
similar to fiberglass, Standard Class and 15 meter sailplanes of the
late 1960’s and 1970’s (e.g.,
LS-1f, Std. Cirrus, PIK-20, and ASW-20). This is in contrast to the
current practice in U.S.
Sports Class competition, where gliders of any performance level may
compete; this range includes
the latest, most efficient Open Class gliders (e.g., Nimbus 4), to
early, post-war generation gliders
(e.g., Schweitzer 1-20 and Schleicher Ka-4). Gliders of significantly
different performance require
significantly different flying techniques, tactics, and strategies in
competition to be successful.
While gliders are handicapped in both IGC-CC and US-SC competition,
there is concern that U.S.
pilots who might qualify in either very high or very low performance
gliders may be at a significant
disadvantage at a World Gliding Championship (WGC) when obliged to
compete in the mid-range
performing gliders used in IGC-CC competition."

I don't think there has been a sudden change in opinion in that
qualifying in one performance class and suddenly moving to a different
performance class at the WGC will not cause problems. If the US teams
are going to do well at the world meets, we need to move more to
adopting the international rules, especially at the Nationals, rather
than moving farther away from them.
Bob Faris

On Sep 18, 10:33*am, John Cochrane
wrote:
My name is Mike Carris and I have just purchased, with a partner, an
old forgotten PIK 20B that will take at least 500 total hours to get
flying again. I did this for one reason, to fly in the Club Class,
which is an FAI event, except in the USA. Now, there will be no club
class, just another opportunity, it seems, *for a very few *people
that can afford it, to get another chance to be on a world team. *Why
not allow the Club Class to flourish as it was intened. Soaring in the
USA takes a step backwards with this decision.

Do something for the sport, you know the one that does not require
mega bucks to compete in.

Mike Carris "0"

Megabucks are not required to compete in sports class. Dave Stephenson
had a habit of crushing us with KA6 and Fokas; Tim McAllister has won
in a Libelle. Sports class is handicapped. The handicaps not only
work, they favor older gliders. *The tasking guidelines also favor the
older gliders. Tasks are supposed to be set for a standard cirrus, and
if that's too short for a nimbus 4, too bad. Ray Gimmey didn't buy his
way from nowhere to sports class dominance with an ASG29, he happens
to be a pretty good pilot too! *Read the proposal -- this said nothing
about club class in the US, it said only something about how the US
team will select pilots for the world team. There is and will be a
club class anytime someone wants to organize and go to a club class
event. Which I hope you will do; vibrant club class racing in the US
would be great to see.

John Cochrane

Why wasn't there a Club Class Nationals in 2010? It stands to reason
that if there is sufficient interest on the part of pilots of Club
Class equipment to compete for national team spots we'd be able to
sustain at least one contest per year to make it happen.

TIm did a nice job with his borrowed Jantar at the Sports Nationals
this year. I think his point about mixed performance across gliders in
the contest is partly true. On consistent days with streeting and
winds less than 20-25 mph the Jantar was hard to beat. For those of us
flying current generation gliders the difference in performance just
couldn't make up for the handicap. On windy days with limited lift
bands and long glides between good lift lower performance could make
it hard to get that next climb and then all the handicap in the world
couldn't help you. That said, the last day was in the second category
and was won by a very ably flown Libelle.

The challenging thing from my perspective is that we don't have enough
pilots willing to do what Tim did - rent, borrow or buy a Club Class
glider to compete in Sports Class Nationals on a consistent basis.
What it means is we send people to the worlds chosen from a limited
competitive set. It's true that it is different flying Club Class
than current generation FAI class. However, I think the competitive
disadvantage of changing glider types for the worlds (by picking the
team from the full Sports Class) is outweighed by the reduced size of
the pool of pilots competing for spots on the team (when you limit the
team only to pilots flying Club Class gliders).

9B

And a fine hello to you, too, Mr. Cochrane:

Irrespective of anyone's history of participation, this decision
smells just like yet another justification to the benefit of those
best equipped and consequently knees squarely in the nuts those who
worked so hard to get Club Class going in this country.

It isn't enough that 18m has its own lightly participated class in
which to go on to Worlds?
Expense isn't already enough a barrier to entry for you?
So now it's legit to encroach upon the opportunities of a lesser
performing class?

Hence, the resultant reactions to which both Mike and Chuck allude.

Regards,

Ray Cornay

On Sep 18, 4:45*am, "John Godfrey (QT)"
wrote:
* * * * * * * * The US Team Committee, in cooperation with the Rules
Committee and based on responses received through the on-line
competition survey conducted last year, has decided to recommend to
the SSA Board of Directors at its winter meeting that they approve
amendment to the Selection Policy for US Club Class Teams selected for
WGC participation starting in 2011.

* * * * * * * * 1) We will no longer restrict eligibility to pilots
who have not participated in a previous WGC event, i.e. all
participants in Sports Class Nationals flying eligible gliders will be
eligible

* * * * * * * * 2) We will broaden the list of gliders which may be
flown to generate eligible scores for Club Class selection in our
Sports Class Nationals. *It is anticipated that most Standard, 15
Meter, and 18 Meter gliders will be accommodated.

* * * * * * * * We are currently rewriting our Selection Policy to
reflect these changes and will publish the text in draft form as soon
as possible. A draft Eligible Glider List will be also be produced
incorporating these changes. If approved, our selection next fall for
the year two pilot for the 2012 WGC will be made on this basis.

* * * * * * * * These proposed changes do not affect selection of the
year one pilot - i.e. selected two years in advance of the 2012 Sports
Class WGC in Argentina, provided as currently required that the pilot
participates in the 2011 pre-World contest there.

* * * * * * * * Given that these changes are being proposed, we wanted
to disseminate the news *as early as possible so that interested
pilots could plan their 2011 competition schedules accordingly

For the Committee
DJ

Can someone from the Rule Committee and/or the Team Selection
Committee please state what the objective for this rule change, who(m)
requested the change, and what alternatives and proposals were
discussed? Thanks Ron Gleason

On Sep 18, 10:46*am, Andy wrote:
On Sep 18, 9:22*am, Tim Taylor wrote:

*A fundamental error in the scoring program is a something that almost
no one is going to catch in the midst of a contest.

Tim

What error in the scoring program?

I heard something about this a while ago. I hope the details will
come out now!

Andy (GY)

On Sep 18, 5:14*pm, Ray Jay wrote:
And a fine hello to you, too, Mr. Cochrane:

Irrespective of anyone's history of participation, this decision
smells just like yet another justification to the benefit of those
best equipped and consequently knees squarely in the nuts those who
worked so hard to get Club Class going in this country.

It isn't enough that 18m has its own lightly participated class in
which to go on to Worlds?
Expense isn't already enough a barrier to entry for you?
So now it's legit to encroach upon the opportunities of a lesser
performing class?

Hence, the resultant reactions to which both Mike and Chuck allude.

Regards,

Ray Cornay

There are number of good points being made here, but one I just can't
get is "the glider makes the winner" in a handicapped class. This is
the place where that argument carries the least weight

1. At the 2009 Sports Nationals, only 14 of 35 gliders were club class
eligible. Only 2 of the top 10 finishers were club class eligible.
2. At the 2010 Sports Nationals, only 15 of 42 gliders were club class
eligible. Only 2 of the top 10 finishers were club class eligible.

So many very good pilots are being excluded from the club competition
simply because of the glider they are flying. Most pilots cannot
afford more than one glider, and once they have saved mightily to get
their prized 27, 29 or whatever are not likely to sell it to get a
club ship. So many very good pilots are being excluded for what
amounts to financial reasons.

Our most experienced and accomplished team pilots generally agree that
whatever disadvantages exist if you compete in a club class ship after
winning in a say 27 or 29 are far outweighed by the smaller pool of
pilots from which the team can be drawn.

Now it may be true that handicaps need more work to keep the playing
field level, but I believe that the new approach moves us from
excluding some of our best pilots based on finances and becomes much
more inclusive.

It is really good that we are getting vigorous engagement on this with
4 months to go before the proposal goes before the SSA board for a
vote. We all want a fair and inclusive competition environment that
attracts increased participation and develops pilots that are
competitive at the worlds.

John Godfrey (QT)
US Rules Committee

Hey... I have an idea!! This same technique should be use to determine the US World Class team. It is a shame that so many good pilots are excluded from international World Class competition simply because they don't own a PW-5!!!

On Sep 18, 4:53*pm, "John Godfrey (QT)"
wrote:
On Sep 18, 5:14*pm, Ray Jay wrote:





And a fine hello to you, too, Mr. Cochrane:

Irrespective of anyone's history of participation, this decision
smells just like yet another justification to the benefit of those
best equipped and consequently knees squarely in the nuts those who
worked so hard to get Club Class going in this country.

It isn't enough that 18m has its own lightly participated class in
which to go on to Worlds?
Expense isn't already enough a barrier to entry for you?
So now it's legit to encroach upon the opportunities of a lesser
performing class?

Hence, the resultant reactions to which both Mike and Chuck allude.

Regards,

Ray Cornay

There are number of good points being made here, but one I just can't
get is "the glider makes the winner" in a handicapped class. This is
the place where that argument carries the least weight

1. At the 2009 Sports Nationals, only 14 of 35 gliders were club class
eligible. Only 2 of the top 10 finishers were club class eligible.
2. At the 2010 Sports Nationals, only 15 of 42 gliders were club class
eligible. Only 2 of the top 10 finishers were club class eligible.

So many very good pilots are being excluded from the club competition
simply because of the glider they are flying. *Most pilots cannot
afford more than one glider, and once they have saved mightily to get
their prized 27, 29 or whatever are not likely to sell it to get a
club ship. So many very good pilots are being excluded for what
amounts to financial reasons.

Our most experienced and accomplished team pilots generally agree that
whatever disadvantages exist if you compete in a club class ship after
winning in a say 27 or 29 are far outweighed by the smaller pool of
pilots from which the team can be drawn.

Now it may be true that handicaps need more work to keep the playing
field level, but I believe that the new approach moves us from
excluding some of our best pilots based on finances and becomes much
more inclusive.

It is really good that we are getting vigorous engagement on this with
4 months to go before the proposal goes before the SSA board for a
vote. *We all want a fair and inclusive competition environment that
attracts increased participation and develops pilots that are
competitive at the worlds.

John Godfrey (QT)
US Rules Committee- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

"So many very good pilots are being excluded from the club
competition
simply because of the glider they are flying. Most pilots cannot
afford more than one glider, and once they have saved mightily to get
their prized 27, 29 or whatever are not likely to sell it to get a
club ship. So many very good pilots are being excluded for what
amounts to financial reasons. "

Good Grief!

This is the attitude of the Rules Committee, when the folks with the
above mentioned sailplanes can fly in Sports class, as well as their
respective FAI class?

Mind boggle 101

I guess I am not interested in this anymore.

Mike "0"