ASW 20 SPIN CHARACTERISTICS

I believe the LS-6 does it that way (flaps and ailerons all even in full
negative flap position) my recollection of the 20 is that everything is even at
zero flap and zero stick. One can set it up as one wishes, but one may be
dialing in undesired consequences.
I remember the Boeing engineer who told me, "Aircraft are designed by geniuses
to be operated by idiots".
JJ Sinclair

On the 20, everything is flush in the full negative position.

--
Bert Willing

ASW20 "TW"


"JJ Sinclair" a écrit dans le message de
...
I believe the LS-6 does it that way (flaps and ailerons all even in full
negative flap position) my recollection of the 20 is that everything is
even at
zero flap and zero stick. One can set it up as one wishes, but one may be
dialing in undesired consequences.
I remember the Boeing engineer who told me, "Aircraft are designed by
geniuses
to be operated by idiots".
JJ Sinclair

On the ASW 20 I used to own a share in (German, early
model), everything was flush in the neutral (flap 3)
position, I've seen a lot of 20's and I do not recall
seeing any where the flaps lined up with the wing root
in full negative. Oh, and to get back on topic, the
spin characteristics were quite benign with a forward
CofG but it wouldn't climb very well at all.

Andrew Warbrick

LS6C 17.5 (everything is flush in full negative on
this)

At 14:42 06 July 2004, Bert Willing wrote:
On the 20, everything is flush in the full negative
position.

--
Bert Willing

ASW20 'TW'


'JJ Sinclair' a écrit dans le message de
...
I believe the LS-6 does it that way (flaps and ailerons
all even in full
negative flap position) my recollection of the 20
is that everything is
even at
zero flap and zero stick. One can set it up as one
wishes, but one may be
dialing in undesired consequences.
I remember the Boeing engineer who told me, 'Aircraft
are designed by
geniuses
to be operated by idiots'.
JJ Sinclair

Flaps & ailerons are flush in full negative, but not the wing fairing. Well,
at least on mine.

--
Bert Willing

ASW20 "TW"


"Andrew Warbrick" a écrit dans le
message de ...
On the ASW 20 I used to own a share in (German, early
model), everything was flush in the neutral (flap 3)
position, I've seen a lot of 20's and I do not recall
seeing any where the flaps lined up with the wing root
in full negative. Oh, and to get back on topic, the
spin characteristics were quite benign with a forward
CofG but it wouldn't climb very well at all.

Andrew Warbrick

LS6C 17.5 (everything is flush in full negative on
this)

At 14:42 06 July 2004, Bert Willing wrote:
On the 20, everything is flush in the full negative
position.

--
Bert Willing

ASW20 'TW'


'JJ Sinclair' a écrit dans le message de
...
I believe the LS-6 does it that way (flaps and ailerons
all even in full
negative flap position) my recollection of the 20
is that everything is
even at
zero flap and zero stick. One can set it up as one
wishes, but one may be
dialing in undesired consequences.
I remember the Boeing engineer who told me, 'Aircraft
are designed by
geniuses
to be operated by idiots'.
JJ Sinclair

Hi Bert,

Lined up with the wing fairings is what I meant by
flush. It's been three years since I had the 20 but
I do remember the flaps lined up with the ailerons
in neutral (and this was adjustable by slackening the
lock nuts and screwing the L'Hotelier's in and out).
I can't accurately recollect whether the flap mixer
moves the flaps more than the ailerons or by the same
amount (though I know the flap mixer mechanism is not
the same in the French 20s and might be different in
the 20b and 20c).

In the LS6 the flaperons are flush with the wing root
in full negative but the 'flaps' are always in line
with the 'ailerons' because they are locked together
and operate in unison.

At 15:36 06 July 2004, Bert Willing wrote:
Flaps & ailerons are flush in full negative, but not
the wing fairing. Well,
at least on mine.

--
Bert Willing

ASW20 'TW'


'Andrew Warbrick' a écrit dans le
message de ...
On the ASW 20 I used to own a share in (German, early
model), everything was flush in the neutral (flap
3)
position, I've seen a lot of 20's and I do not recall
seeing any where the flaps lined up with the wing
root
in full negative. Oh, and to get back on topic, the
spin characteristics were quite benign with a forward
CofG but it wouldn't climb very well at all.

Andrew Warbrick

LS6C 17.5 (everything is flush in full negative on
this)

At 14:42 06 July 2004, Bert Willing wrote:
On the 20, everything is flush in the full negative
position.

--
Bert Willing

ASW20 'TW'


'JJ Sinclair' a écrit dans le message de
...
I believe the LS-6 does it that way (flaps and ailerons
all even in full
negative flap position) my recollection of the 20
is that everything is
even at
zero flap and zero stick. One can set it up as one
wishes, but one may be
dialing in undesired consequences.
I remember the Boeing engineer who told me, 'Aircraft
are designed by
geniuses
to be operated by idiots'.
JJ Sinclair

Owned an A for 17 years. Spun it many times (never inadvertently). If
you abuse the controls at stall, it will spin promptly from positive
flap positions. The more positive, the more dramatic. However, as long
as you use coordinated controls, it handles predictably, though
sometimes sluggishly, with a tendency to spiral dive after stall
break.

The handbook recommends not applying landing flap until on final and
clear of last obstruction. Based on experimenting with recovery from
spins initiated with flaps in landing, this is a very good practice to
maintain.

Chris OCallaghan wrote:
Owned an A for 17 years. Spun it many times (never inadvertently). If
you abuse the controls at stall, it will spin promptly from positive
flap positions. The more positive, the more dramatic. However, as long
as you use coordinated controls, it handles predictably, though
sometimes sluggishly, with a tendency to spiral dive after stall
break.

The handbook recommends not applying landing flap until on final and
clear of last obstruction. Based on experimenting with recovery from
spins initiated with flaps in landing, this is a very good practice to
maintain.

I think my C model prohibited spinning in Landing flap, so I didn't try
spinning. Attempts at incipient spins were futile, as it took so much
coarse mishandling of the controls to even stall it, I didn't really get
to the start of a spin. The negative angle (up about 5 degrees when the
flaps were down 40 degrees) of the ailerons in landing flap seemed to
give them good authority even as the glider bucked and rocked with lots
of back stick. My CG was about 75%, I think.

How did your A model respond? It had more Landing flap available than my
C model (60 degrees vs 40).
--
Change "netto" to "net" to email me directly

Eric Greenwell
Washington State
USA

On 4 Jul 2004 17:54:39 -0700, (Ventus B) wrote:

I have been considering buying an ASW20, ASW20B, or ASW20C. I knew
they were champions in their day and still have a lot of admirers.
However a few folks from my club say they have some nasty spin
characteristics. Specifically, that they have a tendancy to not only
immediately spin when stalled, but will go inverted as they spin. Can
anyone eloborate or corroborate? I normally only hear good things
about the 20.
Respectfully,

Assuming you haven't seen the handbook yet, the following may answer
some of your questions:

http://www.gregorie.org/gliding/asw2..._handling.html

It was written by Andreas Maurer for a pilot who was converting from a
Pegasus: in fact the guy I bought my '20 from. I've found it very
useful, especially as I, too, was converting from a Pegasus. IMO it
tells you most of what you need to know about the '20 that isn't in
the flight manual.

--
martin@ : Martin Gregorie
gregorie : Harlow, UK
demon :
co : Zappa fan & glider pilot
uk :

There was some discussion about ten years ago that a contributing
factor in the early '20 accidents might have been the type of sealing
tape used on the flaps and ailerons. Specifically, before the
wholesale adoption of Mylar seals, many of the older ships had white
cloth tape on the lower surface that could bulge out at the hinge line
under certain airflow conditions, presumably triggering some sort of
undesirable behavior.

Anyone recall this or know if it was true?

Chip Bearden

(JJ Sinclair) wrote in message ...
I believe the LS-6 does it that way (flaps and ailerons all even in full
negative flap position)

LS6 has effectively one piece flaperons, so there is never any split
between the flap and the aileron (which is probably why it slows down
so much with landing flap!).

Interestingly, the wing is faired (wingroot and tip) at full negative
(-5) flaps, not at 0. Makes sense, when you think about it.

Since this is a spin thread, the 6 will kinda spin, if forced, but at
my somewhat forward CG only in landing flap.

Kirk
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