Tire inflation with Nitrogen or ?

clare at snyder.on.ca wrote in message
...

And ordinary compressed air is already 80% nitrogen.
But the oxygen and ozone, along with a few other gasses does
accellerate the deterioration of the rubber, and the nitrogen stays in
better than the rest (co2 included) Also more temperature stable,
pressure-wize.

--
Posted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com

I'm not 100% sure what Clare means by "more temperature stable, pressure
wise.", but all gasses follow Boyle's law, which is Pressure x Volume =
Number of moles x Avogadro's number x Temperature... PV=NRT. Essentially,
for a given temperature increase, all gasses expand (or increase pressure,
given a fixed volume) at the same ratio.

KB

"Peter Dohm" wrote in message
...
Michelin recomends inflating tires with nitrogen. What about Argon?
I
got a bottle of argon I use in Mig welding aluminum. Isn't argon
better than Nitrogen? What about the common 75% Argon and 25% CO2
welding mixture?


I'm not sure about the other aspects, but nitrogen is about 1/3 the
price.

And ordinary compressed air is already 80% nitrogen.
But the oxygen and ozone, along with a few other gasses does
accellerate the deterioration of the rubber, and the nitrogen stays in
better than the rest (co2 included) Also more temperature stable,
pressure-wize.


Yeah, I forgot to mention the pressure aspect until after I hit send.
But
a
lot of the racers love it because they have less pressure rise as the
tires
heat up. Probably the best reason I can see for using it in a auto.
Especially in summer.


When I saw that 8 replies were already posted, I was sure that someone had
provided a serious response; but it was not bo be.

I have long forgotten the periodic table, so I used Wiki. Argon is shown
as
atomic number 18, so it is a good sized molecule--although possibly
smaller
than N2--and is supposedly used when Nitrogen is not sufficiently inert.

It seems like it should work just fine, even if mixed later with dry
nitrogen or even with air; but I would call the tire manufacturer and ask.


Possibly true, but still 3 times the price. I wonder why Michelin recommends
nitrogen.

"Maxwell" wrote in message
...

Possibly true, but still 3 times the price. I wonder why Michelin
recommends
nitrogen.

No moisture, as may be found in the output of an air compressor.

Rich S.

When I saw that 8 replies were already posted, I was sure that someone had
provided a serious response; but it was not bo be.

I have long forgotten the periodic table, so I used Wiki. Argon is shown
as
atomic number 18, so it is a good sized molecule--although possibly
smaller
than N2--and is supposedly used when Nitrogen is not sufficiently inert.

It seems like it should work just fine, even if mixed later with dry
nitrogen or even with air; but I would call the tire manufacturer and ask.


Better get in touch with Ingersoll-Rand and NASCAR. Apparently you know
something they don't.


Nitrogen runs cooler thus less thermal expansion, and is more predictable
due to less moisture content. But don't take my word for it.

Ingersol-Rand

consistent tire pressure

cooler running tires

Longer tire life

Better fuel mileage

Increased safety

Eliminates false alarms for Tire Sensor-equipped vehicles.

http://www.nitrogendirect.com/?gclid...FRf9IgodRyLXvg



How Stuff Works

Why don’t they use normal air in race car tires?

http://auto.howstuffworks.com/question594.htm



How Stuff Works

How NASCAR Race Cars Work

http://auto.howstuffworks.com/nascar5.htm

"Rich S." wrote in message
. ..

"Maxwell" wrote in message
...

Possibly true, but still 3 times the price. I wonder why Michelin
recommends
nitrogen.

No moisture, as may be found in the output of an air compressor.

Even more important, is the fact that there is no oxygen to cause oxidation
in the metal wheel and to affect the rubber of the tire.

Other inert gas is not a problem, but it is usually going to be more
expensive, since many tire shops now have nitrogen/oxygen separators to get
the nitrogen to use in the tires, without the cost of buying all of the
bottled gas.

I would be concerned about using a argon-carbondioxide mix, because of the
fact that there is still oxygen in the mix.
--
Jim in NC

"Maxwell" wrote in message
...


When I saw that 8 replies were already posted, I was sure that someone
had
provided a serious response; but it was not bo be.

I have long forgotten the periodic table, so I used Wiki. Argon is
shown
as
atomic number 18, so it is a good sized molecule--although possibly
smaller
than N2--and is supposedly used when Nitrogen is not sufficiently inert.

It seems like it should work just fine, even if mixed later with dry
nitrogen or even with air; but I would call the tire manufacturer and
ask.


Better get in touch with Ingersoll-Rand and NASCAR. Apparently you know
something they don't.


Nitrogen runs cooler thus less thermal expansion, and is more predictable
due to less moisture content. But don't take my word for it.

Ingersol-Rand

consistent tire pressure

cooler running tires

Longer tire life

Better fuel mileage

Increased safety

Eliminates false alarms for Tire Sensor-equipped vehicles.

http://www.nitrogendirect.com/?gclid...FRf9IgodRyLXvg



How Stuff Works

Why don't they use normal air in race car tires?

http://auto.howstuffworks.com/question594.htm



How Stuff Works

How NASCAR Race Cars Work

http://auto.howstuffworks.com/nascar5.htm







No, I don't have any special knowledge, except that the OP stated that he
happens to have argon on hand for another purpose. Therefore in his
particular case it is possible that it is less costly than stocking a second
type of compressed gas.

Whereas the original question involved only a choice of nitrogen vs argon,
my supposition is that the two are comparable in performance--with the
possible exception that I don't know how the leakage rate of a single atom
might compare to a diatomic molecule made of two slightly smaller atoms.

However, I am not a chemist nor a physicist and the above is only my
supposition that they only recomend nitrogen because it is available, cheap,
and adiquate--so if it was mine I would ask the manufacturer, which is
Michelin in this case. Of course, I happen to subscribe to nationwide local
calling; so, if they put me on hold, it doesn't bother me to put them on
SpeakerPhone while I continue working.

I really do hope that the OP will give Michelin a call, and post the result;
because we are really beating this issue to death, and doind so in a vacuum.

Peter

BTW, I am curious about the claim regarding false alarms on tire pressure
sensor equipped vehicles; but the link provided no explanation.

On Wed, 11 Apr 2007 21:01:12 +0000, Scott
wrote:

What about hydrogen? It's lighter than air and will boost lift at the
same time

Leaks out like crazy.

Scott



wrote:
Michelin recomends inflating tires with nitrogen. What about Argon? I
got a bottle of argon I use in Mig welding aluminum. Isn't argon
better than Nitrogen? What about the common 75% Argon and 25% CO2
welding mixture?

Roger Halstead (K8RI & ARRL life member)
(N833R, S# CD-2 Worlds oldest Debonair)
www.rogerhalstead.com

Kyle Boatright wrote:
I'm not 100% sure what Clare means by "more temperature stable, pressure
wise.", but all gasses follow Boyle's law, which is Pressure x Volume =
Number of moles x Avogadro's number x Temperature... PV=NRT.

The problem with a strict gas-law analysis is that a tire filled with
compressed air has moisture hanging around in both vapor and liquid form;
the ratio varies with temperature, which makes the math all annoying and
nonlinear, and worse, variable between tires.

On the other hand, this often gets translated to "nitrogen doesn't expand
when heated, unlike air" by authors who really ought to know better; this
is complete crap. The difference is *really* marginal, though cutting
down on oxidation is much more relevant.

"andrew m. boardman" wrote in message
...
Kyle Boatright wrote:
I'm not 100% sure what Clare means by "more temperature stable, pressure
wise.", but all gasses follow Boyle's law, which is Pressure x Volume =
Number of moles x Avogadro's number x Temperature... PV=NRT.

The problem with a strict gas-law analysis is that a tire filled with
compressed air has moisture hanging around in both vapor and liquid form;
the ratio varies with temperature, which makes the math all annoying and
nonlinear, and worse, variable between tires.

On the other hand, this often gets translated to "nitrogen doesn't expand
when heated, unlike air" by authors who really ought to know better; this
is complete crap. The difference is *really* marginal, though cutting
down on oxidation is much more relevant.

One of the web sites claim that a tire will run cooler on nitrogen. If it
did, that alone could explain some of the advantage to lower pressure rise.
But what I'm fuzzy on, is why would nitrogen run cooler? And how much
cooler?

Ya, but...you can use a match to find the leak

Scott



Gig 601XL Builder wrote:
Scott wrote:

What about hydrogen? It's lighter than air and will boost lift at the
same time

Scott



Little bitty molecules will leak out faster.



--
Scott
http://corbenflyer.tripod.com/
Gotta Fly or Gonna Die
Building RV-4 (Super Slow Build Version)