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#141
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Future Club Training Gliders
On Sep 15, 2:54*pm, John Smith wrote:
Am 15.09.10 01:13, schrieb John Cochrane: I just talked to John Murray about other stuff, and he mentioned that ASK 21 are actually remarkably easy to get right now. Our club (chicago glider club) just bought a new ASK21, and it's a joy both to fly and teach in. I don't understand why someone would still buy an ASK21 today when you can get a DG1000 or a Duo which offer *much* more performance for little more money. And yes, they are perfectly suited for primary training. Lasham bought a couple of DG1000s as all round trainers. However in practice they are mostly only used for advanced cross-country training. From a basic instructional point of view they are too complicated (tail weights etc), too difficult to get in and out of, and have awful ground handling (we have the 2 wheel version - the tail weights a ton). They spin rather too well and lose a lot of height in the process. We also have a couple of K21s which are great general purpose gliders, but as basic trainers they are, if anything, too docile and easy to fly, and won't spin with a normal weight male student in the front seat. We still use ancient although slightly updated K13s for most basic training. They do everything tolerably well, although more performance would be nice. Derek C |
#142
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Future Club Training Gliders
"Derek C" wrote in message
... snip Lasham bought a couple of DG1000s as all round trainers. However in practice they are mostly only used for advanced cross-country training. From a basic instructional point of view they are too complicated (tail weights etc), too difficult to get in and out of, and have awful ground handling (we have the 2 wheel version - the tail weights a ton). They spin rather too well and lose a lot of height in the process. We also have a couple of K21s which are great general purpose gliders, but as basic trainers they are, if anything, too docile and easy to fly, and won't spin with a normal weight male student in the front seat. We still use ancient although slightly updated K13s for most basic training. They do everything tolerably well, although more performance would be nice. I had the good fortune to get a bimble to Chievley and back last year in the turbo one. Ground handling is fine with the tail dolly on, but one of the dollys was defective so we had to go to the launch point to get the one that was OK. The tail is no heavier than my glider, and if you sit someone on the cockpit rail lifting it to get the dolly on is pretty easy. I agree it's difficult to get into, especially for the short of leg, and there is the danger of falling into the canopy which of course would probably do a lot of damage. All that needs is one of those plastic steps. That high wheel (assuming it doesn't collapse!) must be a great asset for a field landing if the stuff in the field isn't ideally short. We didn't spin it, nor did it feel anywhere near spinning at reasonable XC and thermalling speeds - unless it doesn't have a pre-stall buffet. Tail weights are IMHO a big improvement over water - for one thing no problem if it's going to be sub-zero - for another they are quicker to change than pouring water in or extracting it from a 500/505. I found the DG1000 was easy to fly and very easy to land - it has massively powerful airbrakes and wheel brake, there was no problem landing it in a small area from a position that was really too high and too close. However it's never ever going to be a primary trainer, as you wouldn't send someone for their first solo in it. |
#143
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Future Club Training Gliders
On Sep 23, 5:26*pm, Derek C wrote:
Lasham bought a couple of DG1000s as all round trainers. However in practice they are mostly only used for advanced cross-country training. From a basic instructional point of view they are too complicated (tail weights etc), too difficult to get in and out of, That's why we got two of the fixed undercarriage version. Much much easier to get in and out, no possibility of wheel up landings, only very slightly more expensive than an ASK21, and still far better performance than an ASK21 or Grob. Pretty similar to the 18m Janus we sold to finance them, but without the flaps, horrid control balance, or CofG hook. http://soar.co.nz/dgsmall.JPG and have awful ground handling (we have the 2 wheel version - the tail weights a ton). The fixed undercarriage version is a lot lighter on the tail. Optimum CofG sees it essentially balanced on the main wheel, and very light on either the tail or nose wheel. We don't faf about with the weights much. Most of the time we have 4 or 5 kg in the tail and just leave them there, giving a similar cockpit load range to any other glider. But the option is there if you want it and we certainly do it if there's going to be an extra large or small person in the front. They spin rather too well and lose a lot of height in the process. Sure, but it's not as if it's without a lot of warning! I've done plenty of time in small and bumpy thermals in ours and never had any problem. You're very clearly into inefficient mushing and buffeting long before there's a wing drop. |
#144
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Future Club Training Gliders
On Sep 23, 6:15*pm, "Surfer!" wrote:
However it's never ever going to be a primary trainer, as you wouldn't send someone for their first solo in it. We've sent a number of people on first solos in our DG1000s in the 3 1/2 years in which they've been our only training aircraft! One of them (at least) even did a fair bit of her training in a borrowed Blanik for a few months after we'd sold the Grobs and the DG1000's hadn't arrived yet. |
#145
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Quote:
Colin Last edited by Ventus_a : September 23rd 10 at 09:30 AM. |
#146
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Future Club Training Gliders
"Bruce Hoult" wrote in message ... On Sep 23, 6:15 pm, "Surfer!" wrote: However it's never ever going to be a primary trainer, as you wouldn't send someone for their first solo in it. We've sent a number of people on first solos in our DG1000s in the 3 1/2 years in which they've been our only training aircraft! If they are your only training aircraft you don't have much choice! I gather from your later post these are the club version with fixed u/c rather than the version that Lasham have. One of them (at least) even did a fair bit of her training in a borrowed Blanik for a few months after we'd sold the Grobs and the DG1000's hadn't arrived yet. |
#147
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Future Club Training Gliders
Surfer! wrote:
We didn't spin it, nor did it feel anywhere near spinning at reasonable XC and thermalling speeds - unless it doesn't have a pre-stall buffet. It doesn't buffet, it just gets mushy on the controls. But it doesn't drop a wing by itself unless you stomp the rudder. However if you do, then it does spin. Tail weights are IMHO a big improvement over water - for one thing no You don't need to add any tail ballast for instruction. Adding proper ballast does improve the handling, but it isn't needed. Personally, I think it's a fine idea to show the students right from day one that there is such a thing as a CofG with which you can tinker. there was no problem landing it in a small area from a position that was really too high and too close. One could even argue that it has too powerful airbrakes for primary instruction. Learning in a DG1000 spoils you for the Duo... as you wouldn't send someone for their first solo in it. Why not? |
#148
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Future Club Training Gliders
On Sep 23, 8:24*am, Bruce Hoult wrote:
On Sep 23, 5:26*pm, Derek C wrote: Lasham bought a couple of DG1000s as all round trainers. However in practice they are mostly only used for advanced cross-country training. From a basic instructional point of view they are too complicated (tail weights etc), too difficult to get in and out of, That's why we got two of the fixed undercarriage version. *Much much easier to get in and out, no possibility of wheel up landings, only very slightly more expensive than an ASK21, and still far better performance than an ASK21 or Grob. *Pretty similar to the 18m Janus we sold to finance them, but without the flaps, horrid control balance, or CofG hook. http://soar.co.nz/dgsmall.JPG and have awful ground handling (we have the 2 wheel version - the tail weights a ton). The fixed undercarriage version is a lot lighter on the tail. Optimum CofG sees it essentially balanced on the main wheel, and very light on either the tail or nose wheel. We don't faf about with the weights much. Most of the time we have 4 or 5 kg in the tail and just leave them there, giving a similar cockpit load range to any other glider. But the option is there if you want it and we certainly do it if there's going to be an extra large or small person in the front. They spin rather too well and lose a lot of height in the process. Sure, but it's not as if it's without a lot of warning! *I've done plenty of *time in small and bumpy thermals in ours and never had any problem. You're very clearly into inefficient mushing and buffeting long before there's a wing drop. The three wheeler version also has issues, including much longer take off and landing runs (due to the small angle of incidence of the wing to the fuselage) and the possibility of tail damage from snatched winch launches slamming the tail wheel onto the ground. The DG1000 is lovely to fly and is very docile right down to the stall, at which point it can drop a wing and depart into a spin without much warning. The spin can go flat and take some time to recover. It is not a glider you would want to deliberately spin much below 3000ft. People with very short or very long arms have problems operating the retractable undercarriage. It is difficult to lock down and we have had numerous undercarriage collapses on touchdown when pilots have failed to do so properly. There is no obvious detent to ensure that the U/C is locked down. The latest versions have an electrically operated retractable undercarriage,which says it all! On the plus side it has very powerful airbrakes and K13 trained pilots have no difficulty (apart from the U/C) in converting to it, unlike our Duo Discus which tends to run away with them on approach. Derek C |
#149
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Future Club Training Gliders
The ASK 13 is probably the best and simplest glider to operate effectively
as a twoseat trainer. not necassarily the best for prepping pilots to fly slippery glass single seaters. However it does exactly what it says on the tin and if, you can fly a K13 well and accurately then you can prpobably fly most other gliders too that the potential pilot will progress to next. At 22:23 23 September 2010, Derek C wrote: On Sep 23, 8:24=A0am, Bruce Hoult wrote: On Sep 23, 5:26=A0pm, Derek C wrote: Lasham bought a couple of DG1000s as all round trainers. However in practice they are mostly only used for advanced cross-country training. From a basic instructional point of view they are too complicated (tail weights etc), too difficult to get in and out of, That's why we got two of the fixed undercarriage version. =A0Much much easier to get in and out, no possibility of wheel up landings, only very slightly more expensive than an ASK21, and still far better performance than an ASK21 or Grob. =A0Pretty similar to the 18m Janus we sold to finance them, but without the flaps, horrid control balance, or CofG hook. http://soar.co.nz/dgsmall.JPG and have awful ground handling (we have the 2 wheel version - the tail weights a ton). The fixed undercarriage version is a lot lighter on the tail. Optimum CofG sees it essentially balanced on the main wheel, and very light on either the tail or nose wheel. We don't faf about with the weights much. Most of the time we have 4 or 5 kg in the tail and just leave them there, giving a similar cockpit load range to any other glider. But the option is there if you want it and we certainly do it if there's going to be an extra large or small person in the front. They spin rather too well and lose a lot of height in the process. Sure, but it's not as if it's without a lot of warning! =A0I've done plenty of =A0time in small and bumpy thermals in ours and never had any problem. You're very clearly into inefficient mushing and buffeting long before there's a wing drop. The three wheeler version also has issues, including much longer take off and landing runs (due to the small angle of incidence of the wing to the fuselage) and the possibility of tail damage from snatched winch launches slamming the tail wheel onto the ground. The DG1000 is lovely to fly and is very docile right down to the stall, at which point it can drop a wing and depart into a spin without much warning. The spin can go flat and take some time to recover. It is not a glider you would want to deliberately spin much below 3000ft. People with very short or very long arms have problems operating the retractable undercarriage. It is difficult to lock down and we have had numerous undercarriage collapses on touchdown when pilots have failed to do so properly. There is no obvious detent to ensure that the U/C is locked down. The latest versions have an electrically operated retractable undercarriage,which says it all! On the plus side it has very powerful airbrakes and K13 trained pilots have no difficulty (apart from the U/C) in converting to it, unlike our Duo Discus which tends to run away with them on approach. Derek C |
#150
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Future Club Training Gliders
In article ,
Jon Arnold wrote: The ASK 13 is probably the best and simplest glider to operate effectively as a twoseat trainer. not necassarily the best for prepping pilots to fly slippery glass single seaters. However it does exactly what it says on the tin and if, you can fly a K13 well and accurately then you can prpobably fly most other gliders too that the potential pilot will progress to next. About the only thing keeping the ASK-7 and -13's from being the best trainers for the money is that their cockpits were not designed for the "modern" physique. |
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