Auto-Towing - why is this not more popular?

On Tuesday, October 13, 2015 at 4:51:51 AM UTC+3, wrote:
I did my first 100+ flights as a private pilot on auto two. In Hobbs we used a 2000 ft wire, on 8000 ft of paved runway. In Odessa we used a 1200 ft poly rope on a 5000 ft paved runway. On the short rope we could get a launch of 800-900 feet in a 1-26. It was fun, and cheap! The best thing ( other than the price) was the fact that you had to get good at scratching around in whatever you could find. Those "scratching" skills have come in handy a few times for sure!

If you have a long paved runway, 5000 ft or more, auto tow is a great way to fly.

I'm sure it would be, but I can't think of any paved runway of even 4000 ft in NZ that hasn't got B1900s, Q300s, and/or warbirds who would be very upset about people auto-towing gliders there!

It's far easier to find 2000 ft of landable grass, or even 1500 ft of landable grass with unlandable extension to 5000 - 6000 ft for a wire.

My reply wasn't directed at you, Flub, but at the response that implied
that my method/comfort level is "dangerous". Looking at Sugarbush on
google maps (that's where you fly, isn't it?), I see some decent looking
agricultural fields as fall backs if you get low. I also see not too
many options if the pattern gets crowded and, at your location, I'd be
much more inclined to land if I got down to my comfort level than to try
a low save. Regarding the old guy hanging out on the ridge, local
knowledge and experience plays an important role in low flying.

Take a look at Moriarty, NM
,2799m/data=%213m1%211e3%214m2%213m1%211s0x8718cfb021a7a5 3d:0xa23675822a0f93a3
and you'll get an idea of why I'm comfortable with a low save here.
Look at all the landing options.

Dan

On 10/12/2015 6:21 PM, son_of_flubber wrote:
On Monday, October 12, 2015 at 11:06:31 AM UTC-4, Dan Marotta wrote:
So, do you call all of this thought and planning and situational
awareness bad practice? It seems to me that less experienced pilots
would be better served by seeing what is possible in unusual
situations rather than being hobbled by one simple rule for every
situation.
The point that I was trying to make in my original post is that pilots who make their first 100 or so launches with a winch, gain experience with low level flying and develop instincts to do it relatively safely (the record suggests). People like me who trained with 3000 foot tows and 'pattern tows' do not get low level 'climb out' experience and our instincts for low level flying are rather underdeveloped. There not much deliberation and weighing of options when releasing off a 'pattern tow' at the 'Initial Point'.

The fact that you feel so comfortable at low altitude suggests that you picked up the skills to do it at some point in your extensive flying career.

My SOP of committing to landing at 1000-1300 AGL means that I don't have to rely on instincts that I don't have. Sure it would be better if I was more comfortable with doing lower 'saves'. Maybe that will come in time. I get a fair bit of practice scraping for lift at fairly low AGL over local ridges, but I have the option of skipping out over the valley and entering the pattern at 1000 AGL. It's all relative. I've seen one of the local old timers, circling extremely low above the saddle on the ridge... but he is like 85... and he has a wife on standby for his notoriously frequent retrieves.

--
Dan, 5J

On Tuesday, October 13, 2015 at 12:28:47 PM UTC-4, Dan Marotta wrote:
My reply wasn't directed at you, Flub, but at the response that
implied that my method/comfort level is "dangerous".* Looking at
Sugarbush on google maps (that's where you fly, isn't it?), I see
some decent looking agricultural fields as fall backs if you get
low.* I also see not too many options if the pattern gets crowded
and, at your location, I'd be much more inclined to land if I got
down to my comfort level than to try a low save.* Regarding the old
guy hanging out on the ridge, local knowledge and experience plays
an important role in low flying.



Take
a look at Moriarty, NM and you'll get an idea of why I'm
comfortable with a low save here.* Look at all the landing options.



Dan


Your comment was in response to my comment that your practice is one, that while it may work for you, is generally unsafe and not one that others who are much less experienced than you should imitate.
Getting comfortable with being low commonly leads to pilots on cross countries quitting way to late to plan a good landing and execute in properly.
This is a major contributor to our accident record.
People reading this should understand that while it works for Dan, it is likely not a practice they should adopt.
UH

Well said Hank.

Agreed, and not trying to get into a ****ing contest. My main thrust is
the general lack of judgement that I see daily. I attribute that to a
cook book approach to instruction with only one method being taught. As
I tow pilot I see the same pattern tow instructed every time: 1,300'
AGL at the entry point and on a down wind heading. The student is
taught to make a right 360 degree turn to arrive over the entry point at
the same altitude and heading every time. This is great if you want to
open the dive brakes if you arrive a bit high or sweat bullets if you're
a bit low, but it does nothing for getting more out of your equipment
and yourself.

Please understand that I don't push low thermalling in the pattern as a
rule, only as another option, under certain circumstances, and with due
regard to what else is going on nearby. I'm all for flexibility and I
really wish instructors would at least teach or demonstrate just a few
different possibilities, like getting out of a 10:1 cone of the airport
or landing in the opposite direction of traffic or a right-hand
pattern. Students where I fly see these things only once - as
emergencies (which they may very well be) and during their final flights
before their private pilot check ride.

Now I must leave for the day to drop students off at 1,300' AGL at the
pattern entry point...

On 10/13/2015 11:14 AM, wrote:
On Tuesday, October 13, 2015 at 12:28:47 PM UTC-4, Dan Marotta wrote:
My reply wasn't directed at you, Flub, but at the response that
implied that my method/comfort level is "dangerous". Looking at
Sugarbush on google maps (that's where you fly, isn't it?), I see
some decent looking agricultural fields as fall backs if you get
low. I also see not too many options if the pattern gets crowded
and, at your location, I'd be much more inclined to land if I got
down to my comfort level than to try a low save. Regarding the old
guy hanging out on the ridge, local knowledge and experience plays
an important role in low flying.



Take
a look at Moriarty, NM and you'll get an idea of why I'm
comfortable with a low save here. Look at all the landing options.



Dan


Your comment was in response to my comment that your practice is one, that while it may work for you, is generally unsafe and not one that others who are much less experienced than you should imitate.
Getting comfortable with being low commonly leads to pilots on cross countries quitting way to late to plan a good landing and execute in properly.
This is a major contributor to our accident record.
People reading this should understand that while it works for Dan, it is likely not a practice they should adopt.
UH

--
Dan, 5J

Dan Marotta wrote 2015/10/14 at 17:14:

Please understand that I don't push low thermalling in the pattern as a
rule, only as another option, under certain circumstances,

and it may be fun, like this:

http://filehorst.de/d/bputbHxH

Sorry, download site in german, but it should work. Simple video, taken
by a teenager of our club during our summer camp 2013 at Möckmühl,
Germany. AVI-file of about 102 MB. Me in the K8, another pilot (from the
local club) in the LS4 circling around me. He had to give up - some 2
minutes before me :-)

regards
Werner

kirk.stant wrote 2015/10/12 at 22:21:

You found us!

wasn't too hard :-)

We have talked about trying to get a winch demo at our field to find
out it we should look more carefully at a winch - but as we already
have 2 nice Pawnees, there is not much interest.

Fuel still too cheap? ;-)

(But I do love towing with the Pawnee... ;^)

Oh, I understand, however i'm not flying powered planes :-)

As an aside, one of the disadvantages of using aero tow is that
everybody gets used to 3000' tows and can't thermal down low! Even on
booming days I'll tow them through the house thermal at 2000' but
they will grimly hang on then release in sink, spot on 3000' agl.
Arrggghh!

Yeah. Arrggghh. I like the winch; it's more of a sport and it's training
your skills. And I also like to sit on the winch and launch my fellow
pilots!

But I will bring up your point at our next club meeting (tomorrow) -
maybe we can get some interest going.

Ah, and now, how did it work out?

Regards
Werner

On Wednesday, October 14, 2015 at 3:50:43 PM UTC-5, Werner Schmidt wrote:
kirk.stant wrote 2015/10/12 at 22:21:

You found us!

wasn't too hard :-)

We have talked about trying to get a winch demo at our field to find
out it we should look more carefully at a winch - but as we already
have 2 nice Pawnees, there is not much interest.

Fuel still too cheap? ;-)

(But I do love towing with the Pawnee... ;^)

Oh, I understand, however i'm not flying powered planes :-)

As an aside, one of the disadvantages of using aero tow is that
everybody gets used to 3000' tows and can't thermal down low! Even on
booming days I'll tow them through the house thermal at 2000' but
they will grimly hang on then release in sink, spot on 3000' agl.
Arrggghh!

Yeah. Arrggghh. I like the winch; it's more of a sport and it's training
your skills. And I also like to sit on the winch and launch my fellow
pilots!

But I will bring up your point at our next club meeting (tomorrow) -
maybe we can get some interest going.

Ah, and now, how did it work out?

Regards
Werner

Danke Werner!

Winch training is in my humble opinion the key to being comfortable down low (shout-out to Dan for sticking to his un-popular views). I release from aero-tow at 1,000' if I can but mostly hang on to 1,500. If I go higher the towpilot asks me what's wrong today. Once or twice a year I have to take a relight. I cherish the feeling of connecting and working a weak thermal early in the day and making my own altitude. If it doesn't work for others, I don't care. Close to the field my personal limit is 500'. Instructors use me as the 'bad example'. Of course I modify in high winds and on days with broken-up thermals. Wouldn't want to miss my training on the winch back in Oerlinghausen and at the Luftsportverein Hameln.

Herb

IMHO every pilot should know 10 different ways to land safely, instead of only one way, to perfection. Accident statistics back up this idea. Many landing accidents happen because a pilot is trying to fly "the same" pattern when something totally different is called for.

And glider pilots should be taught to turn their aircraft. If you've never turned your plane off of the runway, you are not going to turn in an emergency when you need to. Over the years I've seen several gliders taxi straight into other aircraft, when turning into a smooth field next to the runway was a completely viable option.

Boggs

On Wednesday, October 14, 2015 at 4:42:04 PM UTC-4, Werner Schmidt wrote:

http://filehorst.de/d/bputbHxH

That is a risky click/link. Tried to install malware on my computer.