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Auto-Towing - why is this not more popular?



 
 
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  #121  
Old October 20th 15, 11:06 AM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
Martin Gregorie[_5_]
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Default Auto-Towing - why is this not more popular?

On Mon, 19 Oct 2015 18:45:02 -0700, Frank Whiteley wrote:

Ah yes, site checks, the standard at many UK sites and other places.
Perhaps the most interesting for me was at the old Lleweni Parc. 75kts
on final to land up hill, stopping at the launch point. Alas, on
visiting their web site, now gliders and pilots must now keep off the
grass, so there is a tarmac runway and landing gliders must roll to the
end to clear the runway.

The most interesting site I've flown from is Eden Soaring, which is winch
launch only, and the only site I've flown so far where a site
familiarisation walk round the field is mandatory on your first visit.
The photos here show the field's special features:

http://edensoaring.co.uk/page/?walkaroundthefield

Would I fly there again? In a flash!


--
martin@ | Martin Gregorie
gregorie. | Essex, UK
org |
  #122  
Old October 20th 15, 01:26 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
Bruce Hoult
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Default Auto-Towing - why is this not more popular?

On Tuesday, October 20, 2015 at 4:51:14 AM UTC+3, Bill T wrote:
That's way to high... We use 800-1000, and yes the occasional instructor induced rope break at 600.
Of course there is always the instructor "my airplane" until about 500ft just outside the pattern entry, or the instructor distraction until the student cries uncle and wants to get into the pattern. Ahhh. Instructor, we are a little low out here, shouldn't we head in? Great observation, let's get this on the ground. Then the appropriate debrief on the ground,


It's the most fun to distract them attempting to work a weak thermal 2 or 3 km downwind from the field, and on the opposite side to the normal landing circuit. Hopefully the student notices we are low (or it is pointed out) while there is still plenty of height to fly upwind to a good base leg (but from the opposite side to usual). But somewhere between foolhardy and impossible to fly diagonally overhead the field to the normal circuit entry point.
  #123  
Old October 20th 15, 06:27 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
Steve Rander
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Default Auto-Towing - why is this not more popular?

I couldn't help but add a comment, I am from the Willamette Valley Soaring Club in Oregon. Once a year we do a Safari to the Alvord Desert which is a dry lake 17 miles long and 7 miles wide, that's right there is no end to the runway so to speak.

We have been doing a weeks worth of auto tows since the 1950's and I can say while I have only been a part of this Safari since 2000 I am hooked on auto towing at this location.

All of the variables that have been mentioned exist such as air density, horse power of the car, car weight, length of wire, etc.

Up until this last year we have always used a length of 12 gauge agricultural wire (about $125.00 for 4,000'), we take a new wire every few years to replace the old one. You can tell when it is time to replace the old because the number of wire breaks. Wire breaks are a real pain as it takes a half hour to get the two ends nicro pressed back together and walk the wire to check for kinks. We have used a number of old cars, the 1960's Buick's were the best as we just left them at a farmers ranch and came out, fueled them up, reinstalled the battery and fired them off.
The last care we used as a 92 Cadillac which only lasted about 5 years before the transmission went.
This year we took both a new wire and a take up reel I built. the reel had 4,000' of spectra and was used much as the wire was in that it was run out full length before the tow was started so the only variables in tow were the car speed and the pilots control. ( I had a few very uneasy flights years ago on a pay out winch where the car speed, winch pay out and pilot were all variable).

On the wire we use a tow release on the car with a release cable run to the spotter. On the spectra cable we have a weak link at the reel and the spotter is in the back of the pickup ready to sever the weak link if required.
With our launch system we get a launch of every 10-15 minutes, the launch itself takes 3 minutes and the release altitude is 2,000-2,500' AGL.

Steve R.
  #124  
Old October 20th 15, 06:39 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
Sean Fidler
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Default Auto-Towing - why is this not more popular?

Winching seems fine, but auto towing seems less complex to me and far less expensive. Of course clubs are always working to find a way to stamp out as many cycles as possible (quantity). For smaller groups or just a few (or when looking for absolute minimum cost), auto towing seems more elegant (quality)! Rigging up that loud spinning monster seems like overkill in many cases.

I'm going to plan an auto-towing event in Michigan next summer for the fun of it, maybe up in Frankfort so we can go ridge soaring on the dunes.

Book: https://books.google.com/books?id=K4...oaring&f=false

More later...

Sean
7T
  #125  
Old October 20th 15, 09:51 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
Dan Marotta
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Default Auto-Towing - why is this not more popular?

When is this annual event and do you accept visiting pilots who bring
their own ships?

On 10/20/2015 11:27 AM, Steve Rander wrote:
I couldn't help but add a comment, I am from the Willamette Valley Soaring Club in Oregon. Once a year we do a Safari to the Alvord Desert which is a dry lake 17 miles long and 7 miles wide, that's right there is no end to the runway so to speak.

We have been doing a weeks worth of auto tows since the 1950's and I can say while I have only been a part of this Safari since 2000 I am hooked on auto towing at this location.

All of the variables that have been mentioned exist such as air density, horse power of the car, car weight, length of wire, etc.

Up until this last year we have always used a length of 12 gauge agricultural wire (about $125.00 for 4,000'), we take a new wire every few years to replace the old one. You can tell when it is time to replace the old because the number of wire breaks. Wire breaks are a real pain as it takes a half hour to get the two ends nicro pressed back together and walk the wire to check for kinks. We have used a number of old cars, the 1960's Buick's were the best as we just left them at a farmers ranch and came out, fueled them up, reinstalled the battery and fired them off.
The last care we used as a 92 Cadillac which only lasted about 5 years before the transmission went.
This year we took both a new wire and a take up reel I built. the reel had 4,000' of spectra and was used much as the wire was in that it was run out full length before the tow was started so the only variables in tow were the car speed and the pilots control. ( I had a few very uneasy flights years ago on a pay out winch where the car speed, winch pay out and pilot were all variable).

On the wire we use a tow release on the car with a release cable run to the spotter. On the spectra cable we have a weak link at the reel and the spotter is in the back of the pickup ready to sever the weak link if required.
With our launch system we get a launch of every 10-15 minutes, the launch itself takes 3 minutes and the release altitude is 2,000-2,500' AGL.

Steve R.


--
Dan, 5J

  #126  
Old October 21st 15, 03:08 AM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
SoaringXCellence
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Default Auto-Towing - why is this not more popular?

The Willamette Valley Alvord Safari is normally the 2nd or 3rd week in July.. Steve Rander is the organizer/contact, and we get a special permit (limit on the number on individuals) from the BLM to camp on the playa. Rander has a complete menu for the week and everyone shares the cost. I'm sure Steve will chip in here, but we have had visiting pilots in the past, but the count may be filled by club members before you get the chance.

Mike
  #127  
Old October 21st 15, 03:04 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
Dan Marotta
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Posts: 4,601
Default Auto-Towing - why is this not more popular?

Thanks for the information. It would be a really long trek from
Albuquerque, but it would be worth it at least once. Same BLM hoops to
jump through for the Las Vegas ground launch weekend.

On 10/20/2015 8:08 PM, SoaringXCellence wrote:
The Willamette Valley Alvord Safari is normally the 2nd or 3rd week in July. Steve Rander is the organizer/contact, and we get a special permit (limit on the number on individuals) from the BLM to camp on the playa. Rander has a complete menu for the week and everyone shares the cost. I'm sure Steve will chip in here, but we have had visiting pilots in the past, but the count may be filled by club members before you get the chance.

Mike


--
Dan, 5J

  #128  
Old October 21st 15, 03:08 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
[email protected]
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Default Auto-Towing - why is this not more popular?

On Tuesday, October 20, 2015 at 12:39:40 PM UTC-5, Sean Fidler wrote:
Winching seems fine, but auto towing seems less complex to me and far less expensive. Of course clubs are always working to find a way to stamp out as many cycles as possible (quantity). For smaller groups or just a few (or when looking for absolute minimum cost), auto towing seems more elegant (quality)! Rigging up that loud spinning monster seems like overkill in many cases.

I'm going to plan an auto-towing event in Michigan next summer for the fun of it, maybe up in Frankfort so we can go ridge soaring on the dunes.

Book: https://books.google.com/books?id=K4...oaring&f=false

More later...

Sean
7T


Have you ever been on a modern 2-drum winch, Sean? With a trained crew and a good winch driver you can launch 2 gliders every 10 min without the hassle of dealing with 3-4000' of cable. Have you considered what auto-launch is like with a good cross-wind? No real problem with a winch because the cable ends up on the reel - all of it. Ignorance is sometimes bliss, you know.
Herb J7
  #129  
Old October 21st 15, 04:44 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
[email protected]
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Default Auto-Towing - why is this not more popular?

On Wednesday, October 21, 2015 at 8:08:59 AM UTC-6, wrote:


Sean
7T


Have you ever been on a modern 2-drum winch, Sean? With a trained crew and a good winch driver you can launch 2 gliders every 10 min without the hassle of dealing with 3-4000' of cable. Have you considered what auto-launch is like with a good cross-wind? No real problem with a winch because the cable ends up on the reel - all of it. Ignorance is sometimes bliss, you know.
Herb J7


Exactly. Auto tow will indeed be "dropping the rope all over the place" and, when all the costs are added up, it won't be any cheaper than a winch.

One must concede that auto tow LOOKS simpler and cheaper to novices but after a few weekends actually doing it the realization sets in that a winch is a much better idea. That's why there's a 1000:1 ratio between winch and auto tow operations globally. Pretty much everybody who tries auto tow winds up with a winch.

Back in the early 1960's a bunch of us desert rat glider pilots operating from El Mirage dry lake pushed the auto tow idea to its limit and in the process learned all the hard lessons. Operating a modern winch is a picnic by comparison.
  #130  
Old October 21st 15, 05:51 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
SF
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Default Auto-Towing - why is this not more popular?

I got my silver altitude gain off of an auto tow. As a CFIG I have instructed at two winch clinics using our winch on a public airport. A well set up, high torque winch, with Spectra, the correct tackle, and a winch driver that knows what he is doing is pretty hard to beat. In my opinion a winch launch is the best option between the two given a choice.

I would try several auto tows with different local gliders, and pilots before I attempted to set up an auto tow weekend event. There are a whole lot of things that could go wrong. You don't want a bunch of whiners from out of town bitching about, while you discover what they are. Oh, volunteer your own vehicle for the towing while you are at it, that tends to alter ones opinion of the event.

To answer you questions in order
-wear and tear on the tow vehicle is a significant cost that's hard to account for.
-It's not simple all the time, say the field is a little wet, the glider lightens the back end, and the tires spin. It can get exciting.
-You have to have the right site, launch crew, and vehicle to make auto towing practical.
-it's not more fun than winching on a good winch. Think Ski boat with not enough engine.

SF
 




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