Auto-Towing - why is this not more popular?

On Monday, October 5, 2015 at 5:57:33 AM UTC+1, Sean Fidler wrote:

Winches are extremely expensive to purchase, to maintain, and insure and require skilled operators.


IME winching can be taught over the course of a handful of sessions -- yes, skill levels vary, but it hardly requires a "skilled operator". At most clubs in the UK, the majority of solo pilots can drive the winch effectively and safely.

Auto towing may look simpler because people already know how to drive a car. The simplicity is deceptive though -- it requires a skilled, safety-conscious driver.

On Tuesday, October 6, 2015 at 7:26:57 PM UTC-6, Sean Fidler wrote:
Bill....at best, not accurate.

Absolutely dead accurate.

Sean Fidler wrote:

Winches are extremely expensive to purchase, to maintain, and insure and require skilled operators.

Wildly inaccurate and misleading.

Winch operators can be trained in a day.
Brand new winches can be expensive but the operating costs are extremely low.
Maintenance is penny's per launch.
Winch insurance may already be included in the insurance you have.

Brand new winches "can" be expensive? Can be? Wow! There is a plug.

I hear they are well over 100k. Or more! I have heard $250k plus for an advanced european system. "Can" be expensive? I also hear insurance is not cheap either. You say its included? Sure, for the glider. What about the club or operator? When is the last US purchase of a new winch system? What was the price? How many have been purchased in the last 10 years? What are clubs paying to maintain new and old winch systems? What are clubs paying to convert them from wire to spectra? I know of one club that is letting their winch rust rather than pay to upgrade.

I have nothing against winches. I think they are fine. But a car and a rope (auto-towing) is the cheapest, easiest to train method of launching a glider, period. Winches are more expensive and far more complex. These are simple facts.

I don't care, but this thread has been entirely hijacked by a bunch of winch people. For what purpose? Why the hyping of winches? Are you kids afraid of being displaced by auto towing? Why? Are you getting a "spiff" from the winch manufacturer perhaps?

My argument is that if I was a 20 year old and had the right situation (airport size, etc), I would rather have my buddy tow me up with his jeep for free than pay $40 for a tow. Now, why not expand this independence to everyone whenever possible. Another benefit of auto-towing is not having to wait in line or deal with a political soaring club environment. Perhaps interesting to some.

Anyway, as usual, I couldn't care less about this thread anymore. The forest is once again lost for the trees.

SkyDrive 6-D

New winch assembled, tested & ready to launch.
8.2L GM V8 engine / tranmission, fuelled by LPG
585L fuel capacity in 3 tanks
Fully enclosed cab with Skylaunch control system.
Built as skid unit to fit on lorry or trailer chassis.

Engine Options - 4D/6D:
Mesh screns: S-52 Front and roof weld mesh safety screens
Air conditioning: S-53 Cabin air conditioning system
Seat runners: S-54 Cab seat runners to adjust seat forward /back
Powered access lift: S-55 Powered access lift to cabin for disabled winch operators - POA
Cabin heater: S-56 Cab heater, propane powered for use with engine on or off (only available with option S-50
Signal lamp: S-62 Remote controlled signal lamp system
Stereo radio: S-63 Stereo Radio/CD player More......
Transceiver: S-64 Transceiver or receiver, aerial fitted in cab, specs to suit client (POA)
Power socket: S-65 12 volt ?cigarette lighter? type power socket fitted More......
Engine tachometer: S-66 Engine tachometer (petrol/propane options only)
Trailer - 6 drum (POA): S-77 6D Winch fitted on trailer chassis with 4 wheels (2 steering) and parking brake (POA)
Trailer light system - Skydrive (POA): S-71 Light system includes rear side markers, no plate lamp, fog light, indicators, side lights, reflectors, fully wired with 7 pin plug (POA)
Spare wheel - Skydrive (POA): S-72 Spare wheel and tyre (POA)
Cable Equipment Package 6D: S-95 Cable Equipment Package More...... - POA
Price Exl Vat/carriage: £146,678.00
US Dollars: $224,578.69 US Dollar
PLUS VAT, TAX, SHIPPING, ETC
So, 250k plus USD once all said and done...
Awesome, cool, but VERY EXPENSIVE and im sure not cheap to insure and to maintain...

just for the record...

http://www.skylaunchuk.com

At 17:33 27 October 2015, Sean Fidler wrote:
SkyDrive 6-D

New winch assembled, tested & ready to launch.
8.2L GM V8 engine / tranmission, fuelled by LPG
585L fuel capacity in 3 tanks
Fully enclosed cab with Skylaunch control system.
Built as skid unit to fit on lorry or trailer chassis.

Engine Options - 4D/6D:=09
Mesh screns: S-52 Front and roof weld mesh safety screens
Air conditioning: S-53 Cabin air conditioning system
Seat runners: S-54 Cab seat runners to adjust seat forward
/back
Powered access lift: S-55 Powered access lift to cabin for
disabled winch
o=
perators - POA
Cabin heater: S-56 Cab heater, propane powered for use with
engine on or
of=
f (only available with option S-50
Signal lamp: S-62 Remote controlled signal lamp system
Stereo radio: S-63 Stereo Radio/CD player More......
Transceiver: S-64 Transceiver or receiver, aerial fitted in cab,
specs to
s=
uit client (POA)
Power socket: S-65 12 volt ?cigarette lighter? type power socket
fitted

Mor=
e......
Engine tachometer: S-66 Engine tachometer (petrol/propane
options only)
Trailer - 6 drum (POA): S-77 6D Winch fitted on trailer chassis
with 4
whee=
ls (2 steering) and parking brake (POA)
Trailer light system - Skydrive (POA): S-71 Light system includes
rear
side=
markers, no plate lamp, fog light, indicators, side lights,
reflectors,
fu=
lly wired with 7 pin plug (POA)
Spare wheel - Skydrive (POA): S-72 Spare wheel and tyre (POA)
Cable Equipment Package 6D: S-95 Cable Equipment Package
More...... - POA
Price Exl Vat/carriage: =A3146,678.00
US Dollars: $224,578.69 US Dollar
PLUS VAT, TAX, SHIPPING, ETC
So, 250k plus USD once all said and done...
Awesome, cool, but VERY EXPENSIVE and im sure not cheap to
insure and to
ma=
intain...

just for the record...

http://www.skylaunchuk.com



...or settle for their basic two drum winch for $85000!

On Tuesday, October 27, 2015 at 12:28:41 PM UTC-5, Sean Fidler wrote:

Anyway, as usual, I couldn't care less about this thread anymore. The forest is once again lost for the trees.

And, as usual, you are so off base as to be ridiculous.

On the one hand, you rant about how great the Europeans are with their youth programs, then go off on a strange tangent about auto-towing, which is extremely rare in Europe?

And in the US - do you have access to a nice long runway? And a beater car? Most clubs don't - which is why Auto Tow is not popular, dude!

You want more participation - do the math on the economics of a reasonable winch and you will see that it comes out far ahead of aero tow or car launch.

Pfft, enough.

Kirk
66

Brand new 6-drum winches are expensive but so are six brand new air conditioned towplanes with entertainment systems and disabled access.

Almost anyone can be trained to drive a winch. I've launched loads of gliders using a homebuilt single drum winch. Also run the start line, driven the buggy and taken quite a few launches including ones that started XC flights.
In a crosswind, it's the glider pilot's responsibility to stay upwind of the runway so the parachute falls on the runway.
A winch operation can be run efficiently with two people. The person who hooks up the glider and runs the wing can drive the retrieve vehicle.
Auto tows are fun too, but they are nowhere near the fun of a winch launch.

Had held on this for fear of the off-season rants on this particular glider.
On Saturday I witnessed another reason that ground launches are not common in the USA: The most common US trainer is pretty poor at ground launches.

Jim

On 10/27/2015 11:28 AM, Sean Fidler wrote:
Brand new winches "can" be expensive? Can be? Wow! There is a plug.
I hear they are well over 100k.

Ummm...last January's "Soaring" magazine; 3 different brand-new spectra
winches from Roman's Design: $97,500, $65,500, $27,500; also lists
build-it-yourself kits. Having seen his offerings at 2 different SSA
Conventions, they appear to me both solidly designed and solid.
- - - - - -

Or more! I have heard $250k plus for an
advanced european system... I also hear insurance is
not cheap either.

I believe everything I hear, too. Critical independent thought can be SO much
effort...
- - - - - -

When is the last US purchase of a new winch system?

Ask the club at Jacumba.
- - - - - -

What was the price? How many have been purchased in the last 10 years?
What are clubs paying to maintain new and old winch systems? What are
clubs paying to convert them from wire to spectra? I know of one club that
is letting their winch rust rather than pay to upgrade.

I have nothing against winches. I think they are fine. But a car and a
rope (auto-towing) is the cheapest, easiest to train method of launching a
glider, period. Winches are more expensive and far more complex. These
are simple facts.

"Don't confuse me with the facts once my mind is made up," comes to mind...
- - - - - -

I don't care, but this thread has been entirely hijacked by a bunch of
winch people. For what purpose? Why the hyping of winches? Are you kids
afraid of being displaced by auto towing? Why? Are you getting a "spiff"
from the winch manufacturer perhaps?

Yeah, it's gotta be that last bit! There's so much profit in the manufacture
and huckstering of winches that the manufacturers can afford to hijack RAS
threads. BWA-A-A-A HA HA HA-A-A--A!!!
- - - - - -

My argument is that if I was a 20 year old and had the right situation
(airport size, etc), I would rather have my buddy tow me up with his jeep
for free than pay $40 for a tow.

Heh. Two rather big "If's" huh? As for "his jeep", one of those cosmoline
jobbies of yore? Advise your buddy: 1) not to say "Watch this!" 2) to be
strapped securely in, and 3) ideally to have a full roll cage. Don't bother to
ask if he's on his parent's car insurance policy and if auto-towing is
covered, cuz it'll just harsh your buzz. Just sayin...
- - - - - -

Now, why not expand this independence to
everyone whenever possible. Another benefit of auto-towing is not having
to wait in line or deal with a political soaring club environment. Perhaps
interesting to some.

You think the politics of clubs is a lot? Try the politics of interacting with
airport managements!
- - - - - -

Anyway, as usual, I couldn't care less about this thread anymore. The
forest is once again lost for the trees.

As usual...

Bob W.

On Tuesday, October 27, 2015 at 8:28:41 PM UTC+3, Sean Fidler wrote:
Brand new winches "can" be expensive? Can be? Wow! There is a plug.

I hear they are well over 100k. Or more! I have heard $250k plus for an advanced european system. "Can" be expensive? I also hear insurance is not cheap either. You say its included? Sure, for the glider. What about the club or operator? When is the last US purchase of a new winch system? What was the price? How many have been purchased in the last 10 years?

You hear?

How about $86k, brand new, ready to launch gliders?

http://www.skylaunchuk.com/skylaunchevo.php

Plus shipping and taxes of course.

It's less than a new Duo Discus or DG1001.

I don't know how many have been bought in the USA, but my club in New Zealand just in the last month or so has ordered and paid 50% deposit on a new winch from this company. Converting from two Pawnees (one's been in the hangar awaiting reconditioning for several years) to one Pawnee plus a winch. And accompanied by an airfield move and associated necessity to build hangars and clubhouse.

I expect our new winch has some of the options, raising the price a bit, but I don't know which ones. Certainly $86k gets you a perfectly functional winch that will launch a lot more gliders for more years than any car.