Auto-Towing - why is this not more popular?

On Tuesday, October 27, 2015 at 8:34:02 PM UTC+3, Sean Fidler wrote:
SkyDrive 6-D

New winch assembled, tested & ready to launch.
8.2L GM V8 engine / tranmission, fuelled by LPG
585L fuel capacity in 3 tanks
Fully enclosed cab with Skylaunch control system.
Built as skid unit to fit on lorry or trailer chassis.

Engine Options - 4D/6D:
Mesh screns: S-52 Front and roof weld mesh safety screens
Air conditioning: S-53 Cabin air conditioning system
Seat runners: S-54 Cab seat runners to adjust seat forward /back
Powered access lift: S-55 Powered access lift to cabin for disabled winch operators - POA
Cabin heater: S-56 Cab heater, propane powered for use with engine on or off (only available with option S-50
Signal lamp: S-62 Remote controlled signal lamp system
Stereo radio: S-63 Stereo Radio/CD player More......
Transceiver: S-64 Transceiver or receiver, aerial fitted in cab, specs to suit client (POA)
Power socket: S-65 12 volt ?cigarette lighter? type power socket fitted More......
Engine tachometer: S-66 Engine tachometer (petrol/propane options only)
Trailer - 6 drum (POA): S-77 6D Winch fitted on trailer chassis with 4 wheels (2 steering) and parking brake (POA)
Trailer light system - Skydrive (POA): S-71 Light system includes rear side markers, no plate lamp, fog light, indicators, side lights, reflectors, fully wired with 7 pin plug (POA)
Spare wheel - Skydrive (POA): S-72 Spare wheel and tyre (POA)
Cable Equipment Package 6D: S-95 Cable Equipment Package More...... - POA
Price Exl Vat/carriage: £146,678.00
US Dollars: $224,578.69 US Dollar
PLUS VAT, TAX, SHIPPING, ETC
So, 250k plus USD once all said and done...
Awesome, cool, but VERY EXPENSIVE and im sure not cheap to insure and to maintain...

just for the record...

http://www.skylaunchuk.com

Oh for ****s sake. Six drums, aircon, wheelchair lift. Radios and signalling systems that won't be in your F350.

Almost three times the price of a perfectly functional two drum winch without the gold plating.

At least we know not to take your arguments seriously now.

I actually hope you and your friends do try auto tow. Keep doing it until you really learn all the drawbacks. When I was 20 something, I was doing auto-tow. I didn't learn how bad an idea it was until I experienced a real winch launch.

Sean, where are you getting this crap about winches. Here are my responses..

All the new winches I know of run well less than $100,000. Home-built winches run around $25,000.

Most clubs have premises liability insurance. Depending on the policy, winch operation may be included. If it isn't, the premiums I hear about run around $500-$600/year but that includes on-road coverage and operations at any airport for camps which premises insurance doesn't cover. If you do auto tow you'd damn well better have premises insurance - you'll need it.

Several Roman's designs have been delivered in the US and at least one brand new Tost will be delivered next month. I think that was well under $50k. Of course the numbers in the rest of the world are much higher.

If anyone is paying more than $500/year on maintenance, they're getting ripped off. The biggest ongoing operations costs are rope replacement at about $1 per launch and fuel for the winch and retrieve vehicle at another $1 per launch.

Conversion to Spectra/Dyneema rope depends on the winch. $2,500 is not an uncommon number. Some winches just aren't worth updating because they really didn't work all that well with wire.

Auto tow is cheaper, simpler? All novices start out thinking this way but reality intrudes pretty quickly. There are about 2,500 winch operations in the world but only about 5 auto tow operations. Many of the winch operations started with auto tow but quickly switched to winches. That should tell you something.


On Tuesday, October 27, 2015 at 11:28:41 AM UTC-6, Sean Fidler wrote:
Brand new winches "can" be expensive? Can be? Wow! There is a plug.

I hear they are well over 100k. Or more! I have heard $250k plus for an advanced european system. "Can" be expensive? I also hear insurance is not cheap either. You say its included? Sure, for the glider. What about the club or operator? When is the last US purchase of a new winch system? What was the price? How many have been purchased in the last 10 years? What are clubs paying to maintain new and old winch systems? What are clubs paying to convert them from wire to spectra? I know of one club that is letting their winch rust rather than pay to upgrade.

I have nothing against winches. I think they are fine. But a car and a rope (auto-towing) is the cheapest, easiest to train method of launching a glider, period. Winches are more expensive and far more complex. These are simple facts.

I don't care, but this thread has been entirely hijacked by a bunch of winch people. For what purpose? Why the hyping of winches? Are you kids afraid of being displaced by auto towing? Why? Are you getting a "spiff" from the winch manufacturer perhaps?

My argument is that if I was a 20 year old and had the right situation (airport size, etc), I would rather have my buddy tow me up with his jeep for free than pay $40 for a tow. Now, why not expand this independence to everyone whenever possible. Another benefit of auto-towing is not having to wait in line or deal with a political soaring club environment. Perhaps interesting to some.

Anyway, as usual, I couldn't care less about this thread anymore. The forest is once again lost for the trees.

On Tuesday, October 27, 2015 at 11:34:02 AM UTC-6, Sean Fidler wrote:
SkyDrive 6-D

New winch assembled, tested & ready to launch.
8.2L GM V8 engine / tranmission, fuelled by LPG
585L fuel capacity in 3 tanks
Fully enclosed cab with Skylaunch control system.
Built as skid unit to fit on lorry or trailer chassis.

Engine Options - 4D/6D:
Mesh screns: S-52 Front and roof weld mesh safety screens
Air conditioning: S-53 Cabin air conditioning system
Seat runners: S-54 Cab seat runners to adjust seat forward /back
Powered access lift: S-55 Powered access lift to cabin for disabled winch operators - POA
Cabin heater: S-56 Cab heater, propane powered for use with engine on or off (only available with option S-50
Signal lamp: S-62 Remote controlled signal lamp system
Stereo radio: S-63 Stereo Radio/CD player More......
Transceiver: S-64 Transceiver or receiver, aerial fitted in cab, specs to suit client (POA)
Power socket: S-65 12 volt ?cigarette lighter? type power socket fitted More......
Engine tachometer: S-66 Engine tachometer (petrol/propane options only)
Trailer - 6 drum (POA): S-77 6D Winch fitted on trailer chassis with 4 wheels (2 steering) and parking brake (POA)
Trailer light system - Skydrive (POA): S-71 Light system includes rear side markers, no plate lamp, fog light, indicators, side lights, reflectors, fully wired with 7 pin plug (POA)
Spare wheel - Skydrive (POA): S-72 Spare wheel and tyre (POA)
Cable Equipment Package 6D: S-95 Cable Equipment Package More...... - POA
Price Exl Vat/carriage: £146,678.00
US Dollars: $224,578.69 US Dollar
PLUS VAT, TAX, SHIPPING, ETC
So, 250k plus USD once all said and done...
Awesome, cool, but VERY EXPENSIVE and im sure not cheap to insure and to maintain...

just for the record...

http://www.skylaunchuk.com

Good reason to buy a winch from someone else.

On Tuesday, October 27, 2015 at 11:14:28 PM UTC+3, wrote:
On Tuesday, October 27, 2015 at 11:34:02 AM UTC-6, Sean Fidler wrote:
SkyDrive 6-D

New winch assembled, tested & ready to launch.
8.2L GM V8 engine / tranmission, fuelled by LPG
585L fuel capacity in 3 tanks
Fully enclosed cab with Skylaunch control system.
Built as skid unit to fit on lorry or trailer chassis.

Engine Options - 4D/6D:
Mesh screns: S-52 Front and roof weld mesh safety screens
Air conditioning: S-53 Cabin air conditioning system
Seat runners: S-54 Cab seat runners to adjust seat forward /back
Powered access lift: S-55 Powered access lift to cabin for disabled winch operators - POA
Cabin heater: S-56 Cab heater, propane powered for use with engine on or off (only available with option S-50
Signal lamp: S-62 Remote controlled signal lamp system
Stereo radio: S-63 Stereo Radio/CD player More......
Transceiver: S-64 Transceiver or receiver, aerial fitted in cab, specs to suit client (POA)
Power socket: S-65 12 volt ?cigarette lighter? type power socket fitted More......
Engine tachometer: S-66 Engine tachometer (petrol/propane options only)
Trailer - 6 drum (POA): S-77 6D Winch fitted on trailer chassis with 4 wheels (2 steering) and parking brake (POA)
Trailer light system - Skydrive (POA): S-71 Light system includes rear side markers, no plate lamp, fog light, indicators, side lights, reflectors, fully wired with 7 pin plug (POA)
Spare wheel - Skydrive (POA): S-72 Spare wheel and tyre (POA)
Cable Equipment Package 6D: S-95 Cable Equipment Package More...... - POA
Price Exl Vat/carriage: £146,678.00
US Dollars: $224,578.69 US Dollar
PLUS VAT, TAX, SHIPPING, ETC
So, 250k plus USD once all said and done...
Awesome, cool, but VERY EXPENSIVE and im sure not cheap to insure and to maintain...

just for the record...

http://www.skylaunchuk.com

Good reason to buy a winch from someone else.

Or, get the basic 2 drum model instead of a fully optioned 6 drum model, for a third of the price.

How many places need to launch six gliders in six minutes?

86k is still a big check. Plus shipping, taxes, insurance and maintenance...

Let me point out, again, the title of this thread.

Winches are fine...

Auto-towing is also a very under-utilized option.

And everyone goes crazy and only wants to discuss winches, and gets irritated when I argue for aero-towing.

RAS...it always delivers entertainment, guaranteed! ;-)

On Wednesday, October 28, 2015 at 4:05:08 AM UTC+3, Sean Fidler wrote:
86k is still a big check. Plus shipping, taxes, insurance and maintenance...

It looks like you could option an F350 to about the same price. Would it last as long, or need as little maintainance? I would be surprised.


And everyone goes crazy and only wants to discuss winches, and gets irritated when I argue for aero-towing.

Aero-towing or auto-towing?

If you have unused old military airfields, or dry lake beds then go for it with auto-towing!

In New Zealand it's hard enough to find space for a winch. Auto-towing surely needs more length for the same altitude.

The only places I can imagine auto-towing in NZ would be beaches. Or maybe on top of a ridge. With a suitable wind you need flying speed more than height.

Though some of the beaches are long enough that you could auto-launch to ridiculous heights with a long enough rope. "90 Mile Beach" has in fact more like only 55 miles of high speed driveable length. But that should be enough :-) There are plenty of other beaches with 5 or 6 mile runs.

A car (and someone to drive it), trailer, and glider with FES could make for very interesting touring holidays.

Am Mittwoch, 28. Oktober 2015 02:05:08 UTC+1 schrieb Sean Fidler:
86k is still a big check. Plus shipping, taxes, insurance and maintenance...

Let me point out, again, the title of this thread.

Winches are fine...

Auto-towing is also a very under-utilized option.

And everyone goes crazy and only wants to discuss winches, and gets irritated when I argue for aero-towing.

RAS...it always delivers entertainment, guaranteed! ;-)

It seems that you're the only one getting irritated...
Why do you think in (at least) continental Europe everybody does winch launching instead of auto-towing?
So, the answer to the question in the thread header is simple - because a winch is the better option for any club.

Bert
Ventus cM TW

On Tuesday, October 27, 2015 at 7:05:08 PM UTC-6, Sean Fidler wrote:
86k is still a big check. Plus shipping, taxes, insurance and maintenance...

Let me point out, again, the title of this thread.

Winches are fine...

Auto-towing is also a very under-utilized option.

And everyone goes crazy and only wants to discuss winches, and gets irritated when I argue for aero-towing.

RAS...it always delivers entertainment, guaranteed! ;-)

Sean, your title to this thread was the question "Auto-Towing - why is this not more popular?" Well, you got a clear and simple answer from people with a lifetime of experience - auto isn't more popular because winches are better, much better. Getting steamed up because you don't like the answer is, well, telling.

Shaking my head. You are missing the point entirely.

First, we are in the USA, not Europe. There are endless options for auto-towing in the USA. See earlier post describing a great day in Cadillac, MI.

This "winch, winch, winch" obsession demonstrated on this thread is a big part of the problem for auto-towing I imagine. Ridiculous, but a sad reality. Soaring would be more popular and less expensive if auto-towing was more prevalent. Think colleges for example. Every college could have a soaring program with auto-towing. If it was encouraged as a low cost, minimalist means of soaring, almost anyone could afford it.

Imagine how many more "clubs" could exist on a simple auto-tow strategy. Or, small groups could form without the full club organization required to afford, maintain and manage expensive winches, towplanes, etc. Or, if you want to justify a winch expenditure in your club for the future, why not try auto-towing at first to prove the concept, then go for a winch? Or, why not have both auto-towing and winching in your clubs "arsenal" simply to have the ability to teach/train/utilize all launching methods? We have wave camps, wouldn't an auto-tow camp be fun once in awhile? No, no, no...blasphemy? Maybe near some airport along a ridge or on a beach as the Brits posted earlier.

What a depressing lack of vision and freedom displayed on this thread. Why the "kill auto-towing" press here boys. It makes no sense. There can be both, can there not?

And, if winches are so great, why are they not "gloriously" hard at work at every US club "in mass?" If I took you all at your word, winches should be roaring away everywhere, should they not? The truth is that winches are actually quite rare in the USA. Are they not? Why is this? Why is Europe apparently succeeding with winches when the USA is clearly not?

I have my answer boys. I really do. It is: Few understand the benefits of auto-towing and this is why it is dead in the USA. Everything is boiled down to a club mentality. Nothing left to discuss here. Got it. Thank you!

Perhaps go start a "Winches are great (wait, we're is ours again)" thread? Good luck with this. I'll certainly look forward to commenting, "in kind." A fact base discussion I'll look forward too.

Sean
7T

Bill, I'm not steamed up at all. Look at your responses. I think you are projecting.

I'm laughing my ass off to be perfectly honest, as per usual.