Auto-Towing - why is this not more popular?

Am Mittwoch, 28. Oktober 2015 15:53:08 UTC+1 schrieb Sean Fidler:
Shaking my head. You are missing the point entirely.

First, we are in the USA, not Europe. There are endless options for auto-towing in the USA. See earlier post describing a great day in Cadillac, MI.

This "winch, winch, winch" obsession demonstrated on this thread is a big part of the problem for auto-towing I imagine. Ridiculous, but a sad reality. Soaring would be more popular and less expensive if auto-towing was more prevalent. Think colleges for example. Every college could have a soaring program with auto-towing. If it was encouraged as a low cost, minimalist means of soaring, almost anyone could afford it.

Imagine how many more "clubs" could exist on a simple auto-tow strategy. Or, small groups could form without the full club organization required to afford, maintain and manage expensive winches, towplanes, etc. Or, if you want to justify a winch expenditure in your club for the future, why not try auto-towing at first to prove the concept, then go for a winch? Or, why not have both auto-towing and winching in your clubs "arsenal" simply to have the ability to teach/train/utilize all launching methods? We have wave camps, wouldn't an auto-tow camp be fun once in awhile? No, no, no...blasphemy? Maybe near some airport along a ridge or on a beach as the Brits posted earlier.

What a depressing lack of vision and freedom displayed on this thread. Why the "kill auto-towing" press here boys. It makes no sense. There can be both, can there not?

And, if winches are so great, why are they not "gloriously" hard at work at every US club "in mass?" If I took you all at your word, winches should be roaring away everywhere, should they not? The truth is that winches are actually quite rare in the USA. Are they not? Why is this? Why is Europe apparently succeeding with winches when the USA is clearly not?

I have my answer boys. I really do. It is: Few understand the benefits of auto-towing and this is why it is dead in the USA. Everything is boiled down to a club mentality. Nothing left to discuss here. Got it. Thank you!

Perhaps go start a "Winches are great (wait, we're is ours again)" thread? Good luck with this. I'll certainly look forward to commenting, "in kind." A fact base discussion I'll look forward too.

Sean
7T

Yep. Same thing as with steamboats. Few understand the benefits of using a steamboat for a business trip from London to New York. That's why they are dead, and everybody uses these expensive airplanes.

Bert
Ventus cM TW

Sean, there are at least ten times as many winch operations in the US as auto tow operation - maybe 20 times. From my information it looks like a third of US clubs now operate winches at least part of the time. And know what? Most of them DID try auto tow and learned from the experience. You'll eventually come around.

I used to carry 2000 feet of auto tow rope in the trunk of my car and used it at many locations around the US. I found that the only really suitable auto tow locations were dry lakes where almost unlimited space was available and there was nothing around to get hurt by the falling rope. Runways were always too short and, because I couldn't pull in the rope like a winch, I broke too many expensive lights with the rope.

On Wednesday, October 28, 2015 at 8:53:08 AM UTC-6, Sean Fidler wrote:
Shaking my head. You are missing the point entirely.

First, we are in the USA, not Europe. There are endless options for auto-towing in the USA. See earlier post describing a great day in Cadillac, MI.

This "winch, winch, winch" obsession demonstrated on this thread is a big part of the problem for auto-towing I imagine. Ridiculous, but a sad reality. Soaring would be more popular and less expensive if auto-towing was more prevalent. Think colleges for example. Every college could have a soaring program with auto-towing. If it was encouraged as a low cost, minimalist means of soaring, almost anyone could afford it.

Imagine how many more "clubs" could exist on a simple auto-tow strategy. Or, small groups could form without the full club organization required to afford, maintain and manage expensive winches, towplanes, etc. Or, if you want to justify a winch expenditure in your club for the future, why not try auto-towing at first to prove the concept, then go for a winch? Or, why not have both auto-towing and winching in your clubs "arsenal" simply to have the ability to teach/train/utilize all launching methods? We have wave camps, wouldn't an auto-tow camp be fun once in awhile? No, no, no...blasphemy? Maybe near some airport along a ridge or on a beach as the Brits posted earlier.

What a depressing lack of vision and freedom displayed on this thread. Why the "kill auto-towing" press here boys. It makes no sense. There can be both, can there not?

And, if winches are so great, why are they not "gloriously" hard at work at every US club "in mass?" If I took you all at your word, winches should be roaring away everywhere, should they not? The truth is that winches are actually quite rare in the USA. Are they not? Why is this? Why is Europe apparently succeeding with winches when the USA is clearly not?

I have my answer boys. I really do. It is: Few understand the benefits of auto-towing and this is why it is dead in the USA. Everything is boiled down to a club mentality. Nothing left to discuss here. Got it. Thank you!

Perhaps go start a "Winches are great (wait, we're is ours again)" thread? Good luck with this. I'll certainly look forward to commenting, "in kind." A fact base discussion I'll look forward too.

Sean
7T

On Wednesday, October 28, 2015 at 9:53:08 AM UTC-5, Sean Fidler wrote:
Shaking my head. You are missing the point entirely.

Really? Other way around, if you ask me...

First, we are in the USA, not Europe. There are endless options for auto-towing in the USA. See earlier post describing a great day in Cadillac, MI.

Yep, we're in 'Murica, where all glider clubs have 10,000 ft runways or dry lakebeds to use for auto-towing. I guess here in St Louis we can just go over to Scott AFB/Mid America and use their spare runway (cuz they sure don't use it much!). Othewise, our nice little 2300' grass strip is just a tad short for that super-efficient auto-tow. Bummer, dude.

This "winch, winch, winch" obsession demonstrated on this thread is a big part of the problem for auto-towing I imagine. Ridiculous, but a sad reality. Soaring would be more popular and less expensive if auto-towing was more prevalent. Think colleges for example. Every college could have a soaring program with auto-towing. If it was encouraged as a low cost, minimalist means of soaring, almost anyone could afford it.

Good luck getting ANY college to get involved in ANY soaring club these days!
"Hey professor, can we borrow your Porsche Cayenne this weekend, the college glider club is going to do some launches down main street in their new Arcus!"

Imagine how many more "clubs" could exist on a simple auto-tow strategy. Or, small groups could form without the full club organization required to afford, maintain and manage expensive winches, towplanes, etc. Or, if you want to justify a winch expenditure in your club for the future, why not try auto-towing at first to prove the concept, then go for a winch? Or, why not have both auto-towing and winching in your clubs "arsenal" simply to have the ability to teach/train/utilize all launching methods? We have wave camps, wouldn't an auto-tow camp be fun once in awhile? No, no, no...blasphemy? Maybe near some airport along a ridge or on a beach as the Brits posted earlier.

Knock yourself out - set it up!

What a depressing lack of vision and freedom displayed on this thread. Why the "kill auto-towing" press here boys. It makes no sense. There can be both, can there not?

Do you even read the responses? No-one is trying to "kill auto-towing" - in fact, several clubs actively use the method on special occasions, where there is suitable locations. But you asked why auto-towing wasn't more popular, and got a lot of educated, experienced answers. Deal with it!

And, if winches are so great, why are they not "gloriously" hard at work at every US club "in mass?" If I took you all at your word, winches should be roaring away everywhere, should they not? The truth is that winches are actually quite rare in the USA. Are they not? Why is this? Why is Europe apparently succeeding with winches when the USA is clearly not?

Two reasons: Cheap fuel and cheap Pawnees (compared to Europe). In case you haven't noticed, there is a resurgence of interest in hi-tech winches in the US as fuel prices and availability of avgas, and the dwindling supply of cheap towplanes, make winching appealing again.

I have my answer boys. I really do. It is: Few understand the benefits of auto-towing and this is why it is dead in the USA. Everything is boiled down to a club mentality. Nothing left to discuss here. Got it. Thank you!

Wow, you really have your head deep in the sand! Auto-towing is not at all dead in the US - and it's limitations are well recognized. Your reading comprehension is a bit suspect, though!

Perhaps go start a "Winches are great (wait, we're is ours again)" thread? Good luck with this. I'll certainly look forward to commenting, "in kind." A fact base discussion I'll look forward too.

Winches have already been discussed at length on RAS. Just curious, have you ever done a winch launch or a car launch?

Sean
7T

Kirk
66
(Pawnee tow pilot who also likes winch launches)

Sean
I don't know what you do for a living now. Whatever it is, you need to quit and go to law school. It's the only profession I know that pays exceptionally well for people that love to create arguments out of thin air just for the sheer fun of it. A few years after graduation, a man with your skill set, and natural talent, could afford any launch method he desired.

At the SSA Convention in Greenville this year,
http://ssaconvention.org/


Uli Neumann will give a talk on building a Winch.
http://ssaconvention.org/speakers/ulrich-neumann/

Our club's winch, the inspiration for his talk will also be on display on the convention floor in fron't of our club's booth next to the parachute packing tables.
https://vimeo.com/35481882

It didn't cost $200K, but we might consider selling it for that.


SF

On 10/28/2015 9:10 AM, Tango Whisky wrote:
Am Mittwoch, 28. Oktober 2015 15:53:08 UTC+1 schrieb Sean Fidler:
Shaking my head. You are missing the point entirely.

First, we are in the USA, not Europe. There are endless options for
auto-towing in the USA. See earlier post describing a great day in
Cadillac, MI.

This "winch, winch, winch" obsession demonstrated on this thread is a big
part of the problem for auto-towing I imagine. Ridiculous, but a sad
reality. Soaring would be more popular and less expensive if auto-towing
was more prevalent. Think colleges for example. Every college could
have a soaring program with auto-towing. If it was encouraged as a low
cost, minimalist means of soaring, almost anyone could afford it.

Imagine how many more "clubs" could exist on a simple auto-tow strategy.
Or, small groups could form without the full club organization required
to afford, maintain and manage expensive winches, towplanes, etc. Or, if
you want to justify a winch expenditure in your club for the future, why
not try auto-towing at first to prove the concept, then go for a winch?
Or, why not have both auto-towing and winching in your clubs "arsenal"
simply to have the ability to teach/train/utilize all launching methods?
We have wave camps, wouldn't an auto-tow camp be fun once in awhile? No,
no, no...blasphemy? Maybe near some airport along a ridge or on a beach
as the Brits posted earlier.

What a depressing lack of vision and freedom displayed on this thread.
Why the "kill auto-towing" press here boys. It makes no sense. There
can be both, can there not?

And, if winches are so great, why are they not "gloriously" hard at work
at every US club "in mass?" If I took you all at your word, winches
should be roaring away everywhere, should they not? The truth is that
winches are actually quite rare in the USA. Are they not? Why is this?
Why is Europe apparently succeeding with winches when the USA is clearly
not?

I have my answer boys. I really do. It is: Few understand the benefits
of auto-towing and this is why it is dead in the USA. Everything is
boiled down to a club mentality. Nothing left to discuss here. Got it.
Thank you!

Perhaps go start a "Winches are great (wait, we're is ours again)"
thread? Good luck with this. I'll certainly look forward to commenting,
"in kind." A fact base discussion I'll look forward too.

Sean 7T

Yep. Same thing as with steamboats. Few understand the benefits of using a
steamboat for a business trip from London to New York. That's why they are
dead, and everybody uses these expensive airplanes.

Bert Ventus cM TW


Chortle. Count me as one who's seen/done auto-towing and winching, the former
done safely and well on an airport in "along-the-runway" wind conditions, the
latter done both dodgily, and well. As soon as those monopolistic winch
manufacturers send me my royalty checks for shilling for 'em, I'll be happy to
vote for winching as by far the less troublesome and easy to do, with a
modicum of safety for all.

Meanwhile, knock yourself out having a blast auto-towing (use your own
vehicle, to be righteous to the unwashed you "rope in"). If you don't do
something spectacularly dumb (and already done by lots of others before), you
*will* have a blast...but if ignorance-based Darwinism is part of your plan
(Look Ma! No experience!), you may enrich those monopolistic coroners and
hospitals, and experience a major downer. Don't sweat insurance; it doesn't
matter so long as your intentions are good.

Please do report back on RAS, too.

Bob W.

You guys are getting a little frothy on the mouth insane now. Hlarious.

Is Auto-towing the soaring equivilent of the devil? Did I miss something?

I never said auto-towing was equal to winching.

You say "10x more winches than auto-towing" in the US. I agree, but this is an idiotic statement. I never said there were many auto-towing operatons.. My thread asks why are they not more popular. I argue Auto-towing may cheaper and easier than buying a winch and getting organized around them. Again, winches are fine but far from perfect solutions for soaring clubs. If they were...they would be everywhere, would they not?

Are there even 10 winches in the USA that are actively used? I doubt it. If so, please name them. Club, State, City...

1) CLUB, STATE, CITY...
2)
3)
4)
5)
6)
7)
8)
9)
10)

Thanks and here is a tissue to wipe the froth of your mouths...wow.

Sean
7T

Having used both launch methods, I can say unequivocally that a winch
launch is far batter than an auto tow. Why? Simply the power applied
to the cable. The car has to move itself as well as the glider. The
engine/transmission removed from the car will launch the glider higher
and quicker. All the talk about the cost of a winch vs. you donating
your car to be beaten to death has been, ahem, beaten to death, so I
won't comment further on that.

Europe uses more winches because of their small fields, expensive gas,
and who knows how expensive maintenance. The US has much more open
space and large, vacant airports for our use.

The Las Vegas Valley Soaring Association has ground launch weekends
twice per year, weather permitting. I know it would be a long drive
from Michigan, but why not venture out west come April?

On 10/28/2015 8:53 AM, Sean Fidler wrote:
Shaking my head. You are missing the point entirely.

First, we are in the USA, not Europe. There are endless options for auto-towing in the USA. See earlier post describing a great day in Cadillac, MI.

This "winch, winch, winch" obsession demonstrated on this thread is a big part of the problem for auto-towing I imagine. Ridiculous, but a sad reality. Soaring would be more popular and less expensive if auto-towing was more prevalent. Think colleges for example. Every college could have a soaring program with auto-towing. If it was encouraged as a low cost, minimalist means of soaring, almost anyone could afford it.

Imagine how many more "clubs" could exist on a simple auto-tow strategy. Or, small groups could form without the full club organization required to afford, maintain and manage expensive winches, towplanes, etc. Or, if you want to justify a winch expenditure in your club for the future, why not try auto-towing at first to prove the concept, then go for a winch? Or, why not have both auto-towing and winching in your clubs "arsenal" simply to have the ability to teach/train/utilize all launching methods? We have wave camps, wouldn't an auto-tow camp be fun once in awhile? No, no, no...blasphemy? Maybe near some airport along a ridge or on a beach as the Brits posted earlier.

What a depressing lack of vision and freedom displayed on this thread. Why the "kill auto-towing" press here boys. It makes no sense. There can be both, can there not?

And, if winches are so great, why are they not "gloriously" hard at work at every US club "in mass?" If I took you all at your word, winches should be roaring away everywhere, should they not? The truth is that winches are actually quite rare in the USA. Are they not? Why is this? Why is Europe apparently succeeding with winches when the USA is clearly not?

I have my answer boys. I really do. It is: Few understand the benefits of auto-towing and this is why it is dead in the USA. Everything is boiled down to a club mentality. Nothing left to discuss here. Got it. Thank you!

Perhaps go start a "Winches are great (wait, we're is ours again)" thread? Good luck with this. I'll certainly look forward to commenting, "in kind." A fact base discussion I'll look forward too.

Sean
7T

--
Dan, 5J

On Wednesday, October 28, 2015 at 5:53:08 PM UTC+3, Sean Fidler wrote:
Shaking my head. You are missing the point entirely.

First, we are in the USA, not Europe. There are endless options for auto-towing in the USA. See earlier post describing a great day in Cadillac, MI.

This "winch, winch, winch" obsession demonstrated on this thread is a big part of the problem for auto-towing I imagine. Ridiculous, but a sad reality. Soaring would be more popular and less expensive if auto-towing was more prevalent. Think colleges for example. Every college could have a soaring program with auto-towing. If it was encouraged as a low cost, minimalist means of soaring, almost anyone could afford it.

Imagine how many more "clubs" could exist on a simple auto-tow strategy. Or, small groups could form without the full club organization required to afford, maintain and manage expensive winches, towplanes, etc. Or, if you want to justify a winch expenditure in your club for the future, why not try auto-towing at first to prove the concept, then go for a winch? Or, why not have both auto-towing and winching in your clubs "arsenal" simply to have the ability to teach/train/utilize all launching methods? We have wave camps, wouldn't an auto-tow camp be fun once in awhile? No, no, no...blasphemy? Maybe near some airport along a ridge or on a beach as the Brits posted earlier.

What a depressing lack of vision and freedom displayed on this thread. Why the "kill auto-towing" press here boys. It makes no sense. There can be both, can there not?

And, if winches are so great, why are they not "gloriously" hard at work at every US club "in mass?" If I took you all at your word, winches should be roaring away everywhere, should they not? The truth is that winches are actually quite rare in the USA. Are they not? Why is this? Why is Europe apparently succeeding with winches when the USA is clearly not?

I have my answer boys. I really do. It is: Few understand the benefits of auto-towing and this is why it is dead in the USA. Everything is boiled down to a club mentality. Nothing left to discuss here. Got it. Thank you!

Perhaps go start a "Winches are great (wait, we're is ours again)" thread? Good luck with this. I'll certainly look forward to commenting, "in kind." A fact base discussion I'll look forward too.

Sean
7T

"why not try auto-towing at first to prove the concept, then go for a winch?"

Because most people DON'T HAVE A VERY LONG SMOOTH SPACE in which to do it. Simple as that.

Ya know, Guys, I gotta agree with Sean on this one. It doesn't matter
how educated, well thought out, experienced, or crazy your answers are.
He will continue to rattle your cages and stir the pot (to coin a few
phrases). I can hear his laughter and I'm enjoying the discussion, as
well. Frankly, I can't wait to meet Sean somewhere on the road at some
"glider thing". I'll bet he's quite entertaining, maybe even
level-headed, but that remains to be seen.

C'mon, Sean. Come to Roach Dry Lake, NV next April for the Ground
Launch Weekend. I'd love to meet you! I'll even have a nice, cold
Alien Ale for you (really, it's a local brand in Moriarty).

Regards,
Dan

On 10/28/2015 1:29 PM, Sean Fidler wrote:
You guys are getting a little frothy on the mouth insane now. Hlarious.

Is Auto-towing the soaring equivilent of the devil? Did I miss something?

I never said auto-towing was equal to winching.

You say "10x more winches than auto-towing" in the US. I agree, but this is an idiotic statement. I never said there were many auto-towing operatons. My thread asks why are they not more popular. I argue Auto-towing may cheaper and easier than buying a winch and getting organized around them. Again, winches are fine but far from perfect solutions for soaring clubs. If they were...they would be everywhere, would they not?

Are there even 10 winches in the USA that are actively used? I doubt it. If so, please name them. Club, State, City...

1) CLUB, STATE, CITY...
2)
3)
4)
5)
6)
7)
8)
9)
10)

Thanks and here is a tissue to wipe the froth of your mouths...wow.

Sean
7T



--
Dan, 5J

See new subject.
Jim

On Thursday, October 29, 2015 at 8:54:23 AM UTC-7, Dan Marotta wrote:
I'll even have a nice, cold
Alien Ale for you (really, it's a local brand in Moriarty).

Dan, 5J