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  #71  
Old July 12th 07, 07:54 AM posted to rec.aviation.owning,rec.aviation.piloting
Hilton
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Andrew,

Airworthy is not the same as flyable or safe for flight etc.

Hilton


"Andrew Gideon" wrote in message
news
On Wed, 11 Jul 2007 17:38:09 +0000, Hilton wrote:

NOTE: If one or both of these conditions are not met, the aircraft would
be considered unairworthy.


What about an otherwise airworthy aircraft whose airworthiness certificate
was destroyed in the laundry? Is that airplane airworthy?

My understanding (not having researched this; just what I was told) is
that it is not. That despite being itself in fine shape absent a
paperwork problem.

Not quite the same, but still not really TC or "condition for safe
operation" issue: what about a perfectly fine airplane that's out of
annual. Let's take it further, and say that it received a 100 hour
inspection on Jan 31 and was out of annual on Feb 1.

The only difference is the lack of an IA's signature. Unairworthy?

- Andrew



  #72  
Old July 12th 07, 03:31 PM posted to rec.aviation.owning,rec.aviation.piloting
Andrew Gideon
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On Thu, 12 Jul 2007 06:54:46 +0000, Hilton wrote:

Airworthy is not the same as flyable or safe for flight etc.


Yes, that is my point.

- Andrew

  #73  
Old July 15th 07, 10:47 PM posted to rec.aviation.owning,rec.aviation.piloting
Newps
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Roy Smith wrote:


10 kts too fast over the threshold is pretty significant. I don't fly the
177RG, but I found a checklist on the net that lists normal landing speeds
at 60-70 kts and Vfe (top of the white arc, which is what you said you were
doing on final) as 95. That's 25-35 kts too fast to land.



35 knots too fast isn't a flap issue. That's a serious training issue.
At least he wouldn't have been hurt in the wreck since he was so far
behind the airplane.
  #74  
Old July 15th 07, 10:50 PM posted to rec.aviation.owning,rec.aviation.piloting
Newps
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Jay Honeck wrote:


When you own an aircraft -- especially one with a big, heavy 6-
cylinder engine that is slightly nose-heavy -- you think twice before
"practicing" such things. Tires, struts, brakes, firewalls, props,
and engines all become HUGE impediments to "practicing" landings with
the stall horn squalling, since you're paying for them all.


That's really disappointing to hear. I didn't realize this attitude
even existed but this does explain some things I see. I have more fun
plunking my airplane down in small spots than just about anything else.
  #75  
Old July 15th 07, 10:54 PM posted to rec.aviation.owning,rec.aviation.piloting
Newps
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Jay Honeck wrote:



Which isn't to say we shy away from short fields. We routinely fly
into 2200 foot grass strips, so we're fairly proficient at it.


You should have no problem using a strip half that length with two of
you on board. Is your nosewheel/strut/firewall that delicate? That's
not Pipers reputation, that's Cessna's. Piper's rep is building planes
that are overweight, not fragile.


  #76  
Old July 15th 07, 10:56 PM posted to rec.aviation.owning,rec.aviation.piloting
Newps
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Matt Whiting wrote:




It is hard to miss Cessna flaps either. I have to admit to wondering
where Kobra mind was during that landing. Full flaps in any Cessna I've
flown is simply hard to ignore, but I haven't flown a 177.


I owned one. You can't miss them if you happen to be in the aircraft
during a landing.
  #77  
Old July 15th 07, 11:34 PM posted to rec.aviation.owning,rec.aviation.piloting
Roger (K8RI)
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Posts: 727
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On Mon, 09 Jul 2007 22:43:01 -0700, "Robert M. Gary"
wrote:

On Jul 9, 10:16 pm, "Aluckyguess" wrote:
I land without flaps all the time when I am buy my self. I think I land
smother. I have done this in my Cherokee 180, BE 35, A36 and a skipper I
trained in for a short time."Kobra" wrote in message

. ..



Aviators,


My wife and I flew to Williamsburg (JGG) in our 177RG on Sat. and stayed
until Sunday.


On base at Williamsburg I noticed that the airspeed was really high. I
raised the nose and pulled some power. I had 20 degrees of flaps in and
that is what I usually land with. On final the airspeed was just coming
out of the green and touching the white arc with only 15 inches manifold
pressure. On short final I dropped the last 10 degrees, but despite that,
man I came across the threshold like a bat-out-of-hell.


The runway was only 3000 feet, but somehow I got it down and stopped after
heavy brake burning. I just figured I used some really bad technique or
picked up a tailwind.


I looked at the wind sock and it was stone dead and limp.


On my pre-flight for the trip home I found out why all this happened.
Sometime after lift-off to JGG the flaps went TU. I had no flaps on
landing and I never noticed!! I can hardly believe I don't consciencely
or unconsciencely look to see if the flaps are deploying. Why didn't I
notice that the flap indicator didn't move or that the plane didn't change
pitch or that it didn't push me against the shoulder harness as usual. I
just didn't catch the fact that no flaps came out.


Now I had to get home. I called my mechanic and he said it could be many
things (it wasn't the breaker). He also said I was a complete wimp (he
used a different word that began with a p) if I couldn't land that plane
without the flaps on our 3,500 feet of runway.


I took off and started to ponder the situation:


No flaps
No daylight with 3 miles vis. in haze and mist (ASOS said 10 miles but no
way could you see more than 3 miles)
No landing light (it burned out two weeks ago)
No wind (so no headwind to help slow the airplane's ground speed on
landing)
and I've done a grand total of two no-flap landings in my life. One with
my primary CFI and one during my check out when I bought the plane. Both
during the day with a headwind.


Well, obviously everything went fine and I exited on the second taxiway
off 19 at N14, my homebase. I landed as slow as I could, but the nose was
so high that seeing ahead of the airplane was almost impossible.


I used runway 19 because runway 1 has trees on the approach and I wanted
to come in as flat as possible.


That's why they teach slips.


Anyway...how many different things can cause this? Where should I start
looking?


I also recommend that everyone do some no flap landings each year.


Kobra- Hide quoted text -


- Show quoted text -


W/o flaps you will land in a more nose high attitude, which tends to
make for smoother landings, in my experience.


A Bo landed properly (landed, not flown on) with no flaps is so nose
high the only view you have of the airport is out the side windows.
In the past I'd practice them every few weeks. A no flap landing is
much faster than a proper landing and can easily use twice as much
runway as well. It also adds new meaning to the word, "float".

We had a DE here on the field who used to say, "anyone can fly one on
but it takes a pilot to land one".

'
-Robert, CFII

  #78  
Old July 15th 07, 11:49 PM posted to rec.aviation.owning,rec.aviation.piloting
Roger (K8RI)
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On Tue, 10 Jul 2007 20:14:04 -0500, "Dan Luke"
wrote:


"Matt Whiting" wrote:

The Arrow I now fly which has a 3-blade prop is much worse than my 182 in
the glide ratio department. I can barely make a 180 power-off landing with
it. You have to turn base as soon as you cut power abeam the landing spot
or you'll never make it!


As a CFI giving me a checkout in an Arrow put it: "You can cut the power and
glide a Cessna in, but a Piper comes down like dropped car keys."


You can also dead stick a Cherokee 180 with a little practice. If you
want steep try landing a Glasair III power off. It has a little bitty
wing with nearly 30# per sq foot of wing loading. The Cherokee is
about 17# (give or take depending on year and version) At best glide
you are probably looking at descent greater than 2200 fpm yet you
should be able to grease it on.

Even a Bonanza power off with gear out and full flaps has an
impressive rate of descent.OTOH with gear and flaps up best glide at
roughly 120 MPH gives a rate of descent of only 500 to 600 fpm which
gives a glide ratio between 17.6 and 21 to one.

Engine out is gear up and no flaps until the runway is made. Then you
hit the gear switch and flap switch to full. As you need to get rid
of a LOT of speed it's a good idea to practice this so you know "when
the runway is made" because if you wait until you are over the end of
the runway you are going to use a LOT of it, probably over 3000 feet.
OTOH a short filed landing will use less than 1200 and with a bit of
practice you can shorten that. Of course, final for a short field is
STEEP.

Flaps are a good portion of the energy management.
  #79  
Old July 15th 07, 11:51 PM posted to rec.aviation.owning,rec.aviation.piloting
Roger (K8RI)
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On Thu, 12 Jul 2007 04:17:41 GMT, Darrel Toepfer
wrote:

Matt Whiting wrote:

The Arrow wasn't all that bad with the original two-blade prop. But
when the hub failed inspection requiring prop replacement, a decision
was made to go with the 3-blade as it was cheaper (go figure). What a
mistake. The 3-blade vibrates much more, doesn't perform any better
on takeoff, climb or cruise, and performs MUCH worse during glide.


I'd look into having the prop indexed (ie. moved one blade on the hub) to
fix the vibration issue...

With the 3 blade, climb should be better, cruise will suffer, takeoff noise
should be reduced too...

My neighbors Baron lost nearly 8 knots on cruise, he's alot quieter when
taking off over the house, and climbs very well out of short strips
though...


On the Deb I lost about 4 MPH on cruise and gained over 250 fpm on
climb. It also made energy management and landings much easier. Now
when ATC says "keep the speed up as long as praticable" it'll raise
some eyebrows. :-)) Love it!
  #80  
Old July 15th 07, 11:59 PM posted to rec.aviation.owning,rec.aviation.piloting
Roger (K8RI)
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On Tue, 10 Jul 2007 12:38:14 -0700, Jay Honeck
wrote:

Spend an hour or two landing on the numbers with the stall horn squalling.


It's funny how much easier this was to do when I was renting
airplanes. Heck, I'd routinely drag it in at minimum forward air
speed and plunk it on the numbers, just to see how short I could land.


This should be a part of every ones practice.

When you own an aircraft -- especially one with a big, heavy 6-
cylinder engine that is slightly nose-heavy -- you think twice before
"practicing" such things. Tires, struts, brakes, firewalls, props,


Nope, not even with a Beech retract. I'd probably do two (or more) of
these about every time I'd go out and practice. After about the
second one I'd find the "airport bums" (group I hang out with) hanging
on the fence, grading the landings.

and engines all become HUGE impediments to "practicing" landings with
the stall horn squalling, since you're paying for them all.


I bought 'em to use and I used them to lean both the limits of the
airplane and myself.


This post, IMHO, above all else, is a real tribute to the utility of
manual, Johnson-bar flap actuators. Hard to miss when THOSE don't
work.


When I add flaps I look at them. It's become a habit.
OTOH the Johnson bar flaps in the Cherokee 180 could make for a very
impressive, short roll out after a STEEP descent.


:-)

 




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