Prop to High RPM on downwind

In article ,
Mitty wrote:
So (1) is everyone taught to do it on final? (2) Why?

1) Yes

2) To have something to break up the monotony of "gear. gear?? gear!!
better check the gear... gear? ok, gear down. gear is down. still down.
not gonna land gear up."

--
Ben Jackson

http://www.ben.com/

zatatime wrote in message . ..
On 21 Nov 2004 20:04:44 -0600, Andrew Sarangan
wrote:


Going prop forward after the governor has hit the limit is a good
practice. It makes less noise, and it demonstrates that you are smooth
at the controls.
Now i"m confused. It seems like we agree. I may not have been clear,
or may have missed something, but this is what I meant when I said to
go full forward after throttle reduction.



I was not specifically responding to your comment. It was in response
to the original poster who wanted to bring the prop forward on
downwind prior to power reduction. Whether the prop is brought forward
at downwind, base or final is not important as long as it is done
after power reduction. Earlier the better I suppose. On a VFR traffic
pattern, I bring the prop forward after power reduction just as I am
turning base. On an instrument approach, I would do that after the
power reduction at the final approach fix.

I must be stupid or missing something. Does everybody in this ng come into the
pattern at cruise airspeed? I was taught, and teach, that you come into the
pattern about 10 knots above your desired airspeed on final. If you do that,
your power is already back for level flight to where the prop is in the stops
anyway.

With the 182, it is 80 knots turning from the 45 to downwind, 75 on base, and 70
on final. I don't understand why pushing the prop to full flat has any noise
effect whatsoever.

Jim



Jim Weir (A&P/IA, CFI, & other good alphabet soup)
VP Eng RST Pres. Cyberchapter EAA Tech. Counselor
http://www.rst-engr.com

"Jim Weir" wrote in message
...
I must be stupid or missing something. Does everybody in this ng come into
the
pattern at cruise airspeed? I was taught, and teach, that you come into
the
pattern about 10 knots above your desired airspeed on final. If you do
that,
your power is already back for level flight to where the prop is in the
stops
anyway.

With the 182, it is 80 knots turning from the 45 to downwind, 75 on base,
and 70
on final. I don't understand why pushing the prop to full flat has any
noise
effect whatsoever.

Jim

Exactly

zatatime wrote in message . ..
On Sun, 21 Nov 2004 23:51:25 GMT, Mitty wrote:

I've been taught to set the prop to high RPM on final, but I don't like this
very much because then, when I run my checklist for the first time on downwind,
I have to leave one item "open."

So what's wrong with doing it on downwind? (This in a Cherokee 6 or and Arrow)
It seems to work fine, does not disarrange the engine, etc. I suppose there
is some small noise increase, but hardly much.

So (1) is everyone taught to do it on final? (2) Why? (3) What's wrong with
doing it on downwind?

TIA


Full forward (high RPM) is in case of a go around. Going high pitch
mid-field will create a really loud racket on the ground. Waiting
until short final is too late in my opinion since we're human and can
forget things. To avoid this I go full forward (high RPM) when I make
my initial power reduction (generally abeam the numbers). This causes
no noise increase, and time for me to double check as I fly the
pattern.

Hope this helps.
z


This one seems to work best for Me. Reduce Power, Increase RPM
setting. No Noise increase due to reduced power and it is already set
when I get to final.

Brian

"Chris" wrote in message
...
[...]
With the 182, it is 80 knots turning from the 45 to downwind, 75 on base,
and 70
on final. I don't understand why pushing the prop to full flat has any
noise
effect whatsoever.

Exactly

Exactly, except for those airplanes that cannot maintain level flight at
pattern speed with gear and flaps out at final descent power settings.

Which is, by the way, all airplanes with a constant speed prop. The power
setting for final descent is necessarily lower than that required for level
flight within the pattern, even if you slowed ALL the way to your final
approach speed. RPM will thus be higher, assuming the pitch is set to full
fine pitch (high RPM). Higher RPM means more noise.

If Jim's 182 flies along level in the pattern at the same airspeed and prop
RPM that he uses for final descent, I have no idea how he accomplishes a
final descent at all. A plane like that would be stuck up in the pattern
indefinitely.

Pete

"Jim Weir" wrote in message
...
I must be stupid or missing something. Does everybody in this ng come into
the
pattern at cruise airspeed? I was taught, and teach, that you come into
the
pattern about 10 knots above your desired airspeed on final.

Do not high-volume airports prefer "local procedures" that encourage cruise
or near-cruise for the small types until just about base turn, just to keep
the traffic from backing up???

Whew! Glad I didn't ask anything political!

OK, things to clarify:

In the Arrow on downwind I've already pulled out a lot of power and flattening
the prop really does have minimal noise effect.

In the Six, which has a three-blade prop, I have to carry more power of course.
Next time I fly it, I am going to listen more carefully while flattening the
prop on downwind and see if there is much noise effect. I haven't been aware
that there is. That airplane, though, is quieter than anything else in our
fleet (Archers, Warriors, the Arrow) because of the prop. So maybe not an issue
there either, even with the O-540.

I like to run my checklist, really a "flow," on downwind, base and turning
final. And I like all three to be the same because the point of doing it
multiple times is that if I get distracted by ATC, traffic, or airplane
problems, any one of them will have gotten the job done. It's a matter of
style, I guess.

Things learned/confirmed:

The issue is only noise; no engine issues that I heard anyway.

I like Bob Gardner's suggestion that going full forward may not be necessary at
all unless the tactical situation demands it. One more thing to remember on
final, however.

I like the several suggestions that the go-around mantra be "everything forward"
-- in fact I wish I had been drilled on that one while training for my Private.

Thanks,
Mitty


On 11/21/04 5:51 PM, Mitty wrote the following:
I've been taught to set the prop to high RPM on final, but I don't like
this very much because then, when I run my checklist for the first time
on downwind, I have to leave one item "open."

So what's wrong with doing it on downwind? (This in a Cherokee 6 or and
Arrow) It seems to work fine, does not disarrange the engine, etc. I
suppose there is some small noise increase, but hardly much.

So (1) is everyone taught to do it on final? (2) Why? (3) What's wrong
with doing it on downwind?

TIA

In article ,
Mitty wrote:

Whew! Glad I didn't ask anything political!

OK, things to clarify:

In the Arrow on downwind I've already pulled out a lot of power and
flattening
the prop really does have minimal noise effect.

Just monitor your tach when you do this. You should not go over about
2300 RPM, or you are pushing the prop forward at too high an airspeed.




In the Six, which has a three-blade prop, I have to carry more power of
course.
Next time I fly it, I am going to listen more carefully while flattening
the
prop on downwind and see if there is much noise effect. I haven't been aware
that there is. That airplane, though, is quieter than anything else in our
fleet (Archers, Warriors, the Arrow) because of the prop. So maybe not an
issue
there either, even with the O-540.

I like to run my checklist, really a "flow," on downwind, base and turning
final. And I like all three to be the same because the point of doing it
multiple times is that if I get distracted by ATC, traffic, or airplane
problems, any one of them will have gotten the job done. It's a matter of
style, I guess.

Things learned/confirmed:

The issue is only noise; no engine issues that I heard anyway.

No -- you CAN overspeed the engine if you push the prop full forward at
too high airspeed. Monitor the tach!



I like Bob Gardner's suggestion that going full forward may not be necessary
at
all unless the tactical situation demands it. One more thing to remember on
final, however.

I like the several suggestions that the go-around mantra be "everything
forward"
-- in fact I wish I had been drilled on that one while training for my
Private.


Too much drill, not enough reasons for the drill. I do not add full prop
until I am at gear speed.



On 11/21/04 5:51 PM, Mitty wrote the following:
I've been taught to set the prop to high RPM on final, but I don't like
this very much because then, when I run my checklist for the first time
on downwind, I have to leave one item "open."

So what's wrong with doing it on downwind? (This in a Cherokee 6 or and
Arrow) It seems to work fine, does not disarrange the engine, etc. I
suppose there is some small noise increase, but hardly much.

So (1) is everyone taught to do it on final? (2) Why? (3) What's wrong
with doing it on downwind?

TIA

Unless you have been assigned a lower altitude by ATC, try setting up
your pattern so you arrive 1500 feet above field elevation when abeam
the approach end of the runway.
If you are on speed (80kts for the C182), you can reduce power to idle
and bring in 30 degrees flaps. This will position you for a constant
rate, 180 degree turn to the runway. Slowing to 75 kts, 90 degrees
through the turn (base) and 70 kts, wings level, final. Bring in the
last 10 degrees of flaps and touch down with the airspeed decaying
through 55 kts.

Cherokee Six and the Arrow, bring in two notches of flaps (25 degrees),
airspeed 90 kts abeam the approach end of the runway, reduce power to
idle. Slow to 85kts at the 90 degree point. Roll level at 80 kts on
final. Bring in the last notch of flaps (40 degrees), slowing to 70 over
the threshhold.

If you fly "airline" (ie- wide) patterns, you will have to carry some
power to make the runway.
Wind dictates how wide and how far to extend the downwind.
Get used to flying a steep approach. The more comfortable you are with
it, the more fields will be available to you.