Where is the LX S80?

On Tuesday, 21 October 2014 17:59:01 UTC+3, jfitch wrote:
On Tuesday, October 21, 2014 5:33:24 AM UTC-7, krasw wrote:

On Thursday, 9 October 2014 04:18:53 UTC+3, jfitch wrote:



On Wednesday, October 8, 2014 3:30:33 PM UTC-7, wrote:







What are the differences in the inertial nagivation systems between the Butterfly vario and the S80?































The LX literature was confusing on how wind calculations are made and it says in one place that the S80 makes continuous wind calculations on its own but in another place it says that the S80 requires the compass module to improve wind calculations.















There is no information in the manual about inertial vertical air mass movement nor inertially derived wind - the two most impressive things about the Butterfly (Air).















It looks like it does have a very nice Flarm display and flarm warnings - the two least impressive things about the Butterfly.







I really can't think any scenario where I would not absolutely wan't to see variometer info and Flamr radar at same time, on separate displays. Main job of the variometer is to tell you what the glider and airmass are doing vertically. That seems to be very diffult thing to do. Flarm radar display is best shown on big moving map, with additional LED display on top of your panel.



Why separate displays? On the Butterfly, all the vario information is always shown, regardless of whatever screen you are looking at - traffic, AHRS included.

Hardly, as variometer display is only narrow tape on side of display. Not very practical in real life.

Why do we have separate instruments at all? Because it is most effective way to display data to pilot. Nowadays everyone seems to be doing only lists of different features on different instruments, with very little thought into what is important, and how does the most essential parts of instruments work (like variometer, on variometer, trivial as it sounds). And how unimportant data only makes things more confusing.

This image makes my point to perfection:

http://lxnav.com/downloads/images/S80/S80_front.png

No imagine flying under cloudstreet in gaggle at 200 kph and read some info from that screen...

On Tuesday, October 21, 2014 11:18:58 AM UTC-7, krasw wrote:
On Tuesday, 21 October 2014 17:59:01 UTC+3, jfitch wrote:

On Tuesday, October 21, 2014 5:33:24 AM UTC-7, krasw wrote:



On Thursday, 9 October 2014 04:18:53 UTC+3, jfitch wrote:







On Wednesday, October 8, 2014 3:30:33 PM UTC-7, wrote:















What are the differences in the inertial nagivation systems between the Butterfly vario and the S80?































































The LX literature was confusing on how wind calculations are made and it says in one place that the S80 makes continuous wind calculations on its own but in another place it says that the S80 requires the compass module to improve wind calculations.































There is no information in the manual about inertial vertical air mass movement nor inertially derived wind - the two most impressive things about the Butterfly (Air).































It looks like it does have a very nice Flarm display and flarm warnings - the two least impressive things about the Butterfly.















I really can't think any scenario where I would not absolutely wan't to see variometer info and Flamr radar at same time, on separate displays. Main job of the variometer is to tell you what the glider and airmass are doing vertically. That seems to be very diffult thing to do. Flarm radar display is best shown on big moving map, with additional LED display on top of your panel.







Why separate displays? On the Butterfly, all the vario information is always shown, regardless of whatever screen you are looking at - traffic, AHRS included.



Hardly, as variometer display is only narrow tape on side of display. Not very practical in real life.



Why do we have separate instruments at all? Because it is most effective way to display data to pilot. Nowadays everyone seems to be doing only lists of different features on different instruments, with very little thought into what is important, and how does the most essential parts of instruments work (like variometer, on variometer, trivial as it sounds). And how unimportant data only makes things more confusing.



This image makes my point to perfection:



http://lxnav.com/downloads/images/S80/S80_front.png



No imagine flying under cloudstreet in gaggle at 200 kph and read some info from that screen...

Actually I find the "narrow tape" on the side of the Butterfly display perfectly adequate, especially in those situations where for example an imminent collision is warned of.

In fact, current thinking in man-machine interface very much favors a single display, with those things requiring the most human attention most prominently displayed automatically. In fighter aircraft, commercial aircraft, F1 cars, etc., the trend is towards a single display glass cockpit.

There is no doubt that this can be poorly done, as your S80 example illustrates. I have no idea what that display is supposed to tell me. But one bad example does not condemn the method.

On Tuesday, 21 October 2014 21:31:48 UTC+3, jfitch wrote:
On Tuesday, October 21, 2014 11:18:58 AM UTC-7, krasw wrote:

On Tuesday, 21 October 2014 17:59:01 UTC+3, jfitch wrote:



On Tuesday, October 21, 2014 5:33:24 AM UTC-7, krasw wrote:







On Thursday, 9 October 2014 04:18:53 UTC+3, jfitch wrote:















On Wednesday, October 8, 2014 3:30:33 PM UTC-7, wrote:































What are the differences in the inertial nagivation systems between the Butterfly vario and the S80?































































































































The LX literature was confusing on how wind calculations are made and it says in one place that the S80 makes continuous wind calculations on its own but in another place it says that the S80 requires the compass module to improve wind calculations.































































There is no information in the manual about inertial vertical air mass movement nor inertially derived wind - the two most impressive things about the Butterfly (Air).































































It looks like it does have a very nice Flarm display and flarm warnings - the two least impressive things about the Butterfly.































I really can't think any scenario where I would not absolutely wan't to see variometer info and Flamr radar at same time, on separate displays.. Main job of the variometer is to tell you what the glider and airmass are doing vertically. That seems to be very diffult thing to do. Flarm radar display is best shown on big moving map, with additional LED display on top of your panel.















Why separate displays? On the Butterfly, all the vario information is always shown, regardless of whatever screen you are looking at - traffic, AHRS included.







Hardly, as variometer display is only narrow tape on side of display. Not very practical in real life.







Why do we have separate instruments at all? Because it is most effective way to display data to pilot. Nowadays everyone seems to be doing only lists of different features on different instruments, with very little thought into what is important, and how does the most essential parts of instruments work (like variometer, on variometer, trivial as it sounds). And how unimportant data only makes things more confusing.







This image makes my point to perfection:







http://lxnav.com/downloads/images/S80/S80_front.png







No imagine flying under cloudstreet in gaggle at 200 kph and read some info from that screen...



Actually I find the "narrow tape" on the side of the Butterfly display perfectly adequate, especially in those situations where for example an imminent collision is warned of.



In fact, current thinking in man-machine interface very much favors a single display, with those things requiring the most human attention most prominently displayed automatically. In fighter aircraft, commercial aircraft, F1 cars, etc., the trend is towards a single display glass cockpit.


In commercial airliners the trends is to display only information that is essential and should be displayed. If you look at the screens of modern airbus etc. (screen area is probably hundredfold compared to BF Vario BTW), they are not that confusing at all.

On Tuesday, October 21, 2014 11:03:48 AM UTC-4, jfitch wrote:
On Monday, October 20, 2014 4:24:46 PM UTC-7, wrote:

On Friday, October 10, 2014 3:50:54 AM UTC+11, wrote:



Excellent questions and observations.







I am focused on the S80 and Butterfly primarily because they have an artificial horizon but also would like a unit that can filter out horizontal gusts that cause me/us to think we have entered a strong thermal. It also would seem that the instantaneous wind readings would be very helpful when flying convergence lines.







You have a built in filter that can eliminate false readings due to gusts. It's called your backside. If you can't feel the acceleration, it's not there.



Acceleration due to a a vertical or horizontal gust are not discernible by the human backside. Both result in an increase in lift: the former due to an increase in the angle of attack and the latter due to an increase in air speed. Both can be used to gain energy, but you will find circling in the latter a pointless exercise. Which is why every variometer manufacturer is trying to differentiate them.

I do not agree. The scream on the vario not associated with the seat feel "true" lift is obvious when you practice enough. All these instruments are trying to do is make the vario agree with what we should feel in the seat.
This could help the less experienced or less active pilot but likely will have little benefit to the pilot that flies a lot.
UH

On Tuesday, October 21, 2014 12:59:31 PM UTC-7, wrote:
On Tuesday, October 21, 2014 11:03:48 AM UTC-4, jfitch wrote:

On Monday, October 20, 2014 4:24:46 PM UTC-7, wrote:



On Friday, October 10, 2014 3:50:54 AM UTC+11, wrote:







Excellent questions and observations.















I am focused on the S80 and Butterfly primarily because they have an artificial horizon but also would like a unit that can filter out horizontal gusts that cause me/us to think we have entered a strong thermal. It also would seem that the instantaneous wind readings would be very helpful when flying convergence lines.















You have a built in filter that can eliminate false readings due to gusts. It's called your backside. If you can't feel the acceleration, it's not there.







Acceleration due to a a vertical or horizontal gust are not discernible by the human backside. Both result in an increase in lift: the former due to an increase in the angle of attack and the latter due to an increase in air speed. Both can be used to gain energy, but you will find circling in the latter a pointless exercise. Which is why every variometer manufacturer is trying to differentiate them.



I do not agree. The scream on the vario not associated with the seat feel "true" lift is obvious when you practice enough. All these instruments are trying to do is make the vario agree with what we should feel in the seat.

This could help the less experienced or less active pilot but likely will have little benefit to the pilot that flies a lot.

UH

Do not agree with what?

The aerodynamics is accepted by pretty much everyone. The seat of the pants feel is simply vertical acceleration (and sometimes a little lateral mixed in). This could be displayed on a very inexpensive accelerometer. If what you say is true, then you don't need a variometer at all. I hope the vario manufacturers are trying to do more (and they are). Specifically, concisely present information allowing maximum extraction of energy from the surrounding air. There are many reasons why a barometric variometer does not (and cannot) duplicate the accelerations you feel.

Off topic but, if the screens in the Airbus display only necessary data,
then why wasn't the simple message: "LOWER THE FREAKING NOSE" displayed
to that crew over the Atlantic?

Dan Marotta

On 10/21/2014 1:57 PM, krasw wrote:
On Tuesday, 21 October 2014 21:31:48 UTC+3, jfitch wrote:
On Tuesday, October 21, 2014 11:18:58 AM UTC-7, krasw wrote:

On Tuesday, 21 October 2014 17:59:01 UTC+3, jfitch wrote:
On Tuesday, October 21, 2014 5:33:24 AM UTC-7, krasw wrote:
On Thursday, 9 October 2014 04:18:53 UTC+3, jfitch wrote:
On Wednesday, October 8, 2014 3:30:33 PM UTC-7, wrote:
What are the differences in the inertial nagivation systems between the Butterfly vario and the S80?
The LX literature was confusing on how wind calculations are made and it says in one place that the S80 makes continuous wind calculations on its own but in another place it says that the S80 requires the compass module to improve wind calculations.
There is no information in the manual about inertial vertical air mass movement nor inertially derived wind - the two most impressive things about the Butterfly (Air).
It looks like it does have a very nice Flarm display and flarm warnings - the two least impressive things about the Butterfly.
I really can't think any scenario where I would not absolutely wan't to see variometer info and Flamr radar at same time, on separate displays. Main job of the variometer is to tell you what the glider and airmass are doing vertically. That seems to be very diffult thing to do. Flarm radar display is best shown on big moving map, with additional LED display on top of your panel.
Why separate displays? On the Butterfly, all the vario information is always shown, regardless of whatever screen you are looking at - traffic, AHRS included.
Hardly, as variometer display is only narrow tape on side of display. Not very practical in real life.
Why do we have separate instruments at all? Because it is most effective way to display data to pilot. Nowadays everyone seems to be doing only lists of different features on different instruments, with very little thought into what is important, and how does the most essential parts of instruments work (like variometer, on variometer, trivial as it sounds). And how unimportant data only makes things more confusing.
This image makes my point to perfection:
http://lxnav.com/downloads/images/S80/S80_front.png
No imagine flying under cloudstreet in gaggle at 200 kph and read some info from that screen...


Actually I find the "narrow tape" on the side of the Butterfly display perfectly adequate, especially in those situations where for example an imminent collision is warned of.



In fact, current thinking in man-machine interface very much favors a single display, with those things requiring the most human attention most prominently displayed automatically. In fighter aircraft, commercial aircraft, F1 cars, etc., the trend is towards a single display glass cockpit.

In commercial airliners the trends is to display only information that is essential and should be displayed. If you look at the screens of modern airbus etc. (screen area is probably hundredfold compared to BF Vario BTW), they are not that confusing at all.

On Tuesday, October 21, 2014 4:23:53 PM UTC-7, Dan Marotta wrote:
Off topic but, if the screens in the
Airbus display only necessary data, then why wasn't the simple
message: "LOWER THE FREAKING NOSE" displayed to that crew over the
Atlantic?



That wasn't considered necessary information for trained pilots.....

On Tuesday, October 21, 2014 2:21:38 PM UTC-7, jfitch wrote:
On Tuesday, October 21, 2014 12:59:31 PM UTC-7, wrote:

On Tuesday, October 21, 2014 11:03:48 AM UTC-4, jfitch wrote:



On Monday, October 20, 2014 4:24:46 PM UTC-7, wrote:







On Friday, October 10, 2014 3:50:54 AM UTC+11, wrote:















Excellent questions and observations.































I am focused on the S80 and Butterfly primarily because they have an artificial horizon but also would like a unit that can filter out horizontal gusts that cause me/us to think we have entered a strong thermal. It also would seem that the instantaneous wind readings would be very helpful when flying convergence lines.































You have a built in filter that can eliminate false readings due to gusts. It's called your backside. If you can't feel the acceleration, it's not there.















Acceleration due to a a vertical or horizontal gust are not discernible by the human backside. Both result in an increase in lift: the former due to an increase in the angle of attack and the latter due to an increase in air speed. Both can be used to gain energy, but you will find circling in the latter a pointless exercise. Which is why every variometer manufacturer is trying to differentiate them.







I do not agree. The scream on the vario not associated with the seat feel "true" lift is obvious when you practice enough. All these instruments are trying to do is make the vario agree with what we should feel in the seat.

At 23:23 21 October 2014, Dan Marotta wrote:
Off topic but, if the screens in the Airbus display only necessary data,
then why wasn't the simple message: "LOWER THE FREAKING NOSE" displayed
to that crew over the Atlantic?

Dan Marotta

Airbus know better, and consider that their airplane's computers are better
at flying than the pilots. The pilots are there simply to satisfy the
regulators and the public. From this position why would you need to tell
the pilot anything at all?

On Wednesday, October 22, 2014 7:31:30 AM UTC-4, wrote:
On Tuesday, October 21, 2014 2:21:38 PM UTC-7, jfitch wrote:

On Tuesday, October 21, 2014 12:59:31 PM UTC-7, wrote:



On Tuesday, October 21, 2014 11:03:48 AM UTC-4, jfitch wrote:







On Monday, October 20, 2014 4:24:46 PM UTC-7, wrote:















On Friday, October 10, 2014 3:50:54 AM UTC+11, wrote:































Excellent questions and observations.































































I am focused on the S80 and Butterfly primarily because they have an artificial horizon but also would like a unit that can filter out horizontal gusts that cause me/us to think we have entered a strong thermal. It also would seem that the instantaneous wind readings would be very helpful when flying convergence lines.































































You have a built in filter that can eliminate false readings due to gusts. It's called your backside. If you can't feel the acceleration, it's not there.































Acceleration due to a a vertical or horizontal gust are not discernible by the human backside. Both result in an increase in lift: the former due to an increase in the angle of attack and the latter due to an increase in air speed. Both can be used to gain energy, but you will find circling in the latter a pointless exercise. Which is why every variometer manufacturer is trying to differentiate them.















I do not agree. The scream on the vario not associated with the seat feel "true" lift is obvious when you practice enough. All these instruments are trying to do is make the vario agree with what we should feel in the seat.







This could help the less experienced or less active pilot but likely will have little benefit to the pilot that flies a lot.







UH







Do not agree with what?







The aerodynamics is accepted by pretty much everyone. The seat of the pants feel is simply vertical acceleration (and sometimes a little lateral mixed in). This could be displayed on a very inexpensive accelerometer. If what you say is true, then you don't need a variometer at all. I hope the vario manufacturers are trying to do more (and they are). Specifically, concisely present information allowing maximum extraction of energy from the surrounding air. There are many reasons why a barometric variometer does not (and cannot) duplicate the accelerations you feel.



Hmmm...



There seems to be some confusion here.



Humans can, with varying precision, detect linear and angular acceleration and at least the first derivative thereof (the physics term is "jerk"). Humans are relatively poor at judging vertical position (altitude) and velocity (climb rate) with enough precision to be useful in soaring most of the time.



The flight dynamics that result from changes in vertical versus horizontal air movement, while somewhat similar, are not identical. Experienced pilots generally can pick up the difference much of the time, but I think it is quite possible to use a combination of air data and acceleration information to compensate a vario so that its transient response to horizontal gusts reinforces, rather than conflicts with, the seat of the pants sensation and judgement of experienced pilots. I think this would be of benefit to all experience levels, but obviously of greater benefit to pilots who aren't practiced in the art of sorting the difference.



9B

9B said what I was trying to communicate better than I did.
UH