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#21
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In the age of video conferencing it is high time that congress be disbursed
back their districts where they HAVE to talk to their constituents - instead the professional procurers hanging out in the hallways... Let the terroristas figure out how to have a mass event in hundreds of individual districts... Denny Who, exactly, are they trying to protect? If the only motive is to protect individual elected officials, then I contend that a Cessna with 500 lbs of explosives is a very BAD weapon. The pilot would have to know exactly where the official(s) was, and would have to get relatively close to them (in aeronautical terms). In addition, our Constitution provides for the replacement of elected officials in an orderly fashion. |
#22
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The cynical steak in me says that the real reason for the stadiums/Orlando
TFR is so that the money men don't have to share the advertising to 50,000 people with some two bit, pilot towing an "eat at joe's" sign... Denny The stadium TFRs, however, do nothing to mitigate this security threat or provide additional safety to the stadium attendees. Absolutely nothing. |
#23
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"Dennis O'Connor" wrote in message
... The cynical steak in me says that the real reason for the stadiums/Orlando TFR is so that the money men don't have to share the advertising to 50,000 people with some two bit, pilot towing an "eat at joe's" sign... Is that a sirloin or filet? Seriously though, I don't think you're being all that cynical at all. IMHO, much of the aftermath of 9/11 has been politically and economically motivated, with very little concern at all for genuine security issues. Chalk it up to human nature, or whatever, but plenty of people jumped to take advantage of the situation. It's not a stretch at all to think that people with a vested interest in advertising revenue for sporting events took advantage and lobbied for the restriction of advertisers that don't cut them in. Pete |
#24
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In article ,
Judah wrote: A suicide bomber in Jerusalem, with 30 pounds of explosives strapped to his belt, can murder and injure dozens of innocent people in restaurants, night clubs, markets, and bus stations. You don't believe that 500 pounds of explosives in a suicide-bomber's Cessna is a potential security threat? 500 pounds of explosives in a suicide-bomber's Cessna is a potential security threat, but so is 30 pounds of explosives strapped to a belt. Are you advocating we strip-search every person entering a public building? If not, why single out the Cessna? -- Paul Baechler |
#25
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Captain Wubba wrote:
I don't think they will stand the test of time either. But that is partly a point I was trying to make earlier. It takes time for 'appropriate' meausres to weed themselves out from the bogus ones. But I disagree that GA is being 'unfairly' singled out. The last significant attack on the US came from aviation. So it is quite natural that the government will react *against* aviation. Just like if the scumbags had destoyed the WTC with a bunch of rented U-Hauls, we'd be seeing restrictions on renting U-Hauls. snip There weren't any unusual restrictions against rental trucks imposed after Oklahoma City. mistaken as that appearance might be). So, over time, we show how GA benefits people. We do Angel Flights, and Young Eagle Flights, and people will see that there isn't a threat from my Cessna 172. And the reluctance to eliminate silly TFRs will eventually disappear. Realistically speaking, the average citizen doesn't pay any attention to Angel Flights or Young Eagle flights. Those sort of things reach out to a relatively small group (as compared to the population of the country). I doubt that the "average" person will ever stop think of us as a threat. But the reality is that planes were used to murder 3000 people. And an airplane was stolen by a kid and flown into a skycraper. snip Big ass airliners killed 3000 people, not 2500 lb. Cessnas. We simply must pick our battles. I suspect you aren't living in the Washington FRZ/ADIZ or underneath one of the other TFRs. -- Jay __!__ Jay and Teresa Masino ___(_)___ http://www2.ari.net/jmasino/ ! ! ! Checkout http://www.oc-adolfos.com/ for the best Italian food in Ocean City, MD and... Checkout http://www.brolow.com/ for authentic Blues music on Delmarva |
#27
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Judah wrote:
IMHO the Ryder Truck story ain't it. If you don't believe me, next time you get pulled over for running a traffic light, call your governor and ask him to dismiss your case. After all, there is no light at the busy intersection a few blocks down! Non sequitor. That's effectively the same case you are making with the Ryder Truck I don't think so. The point is: in an open society, there is the need to assess risk accurately, in order to balance freedom and risk. There is also a need for accountability, to demand that the effort and expense put into security measures be properly directed to reduce risk effectively. IMO, the TFR and the Washington ADIZ fail both tests. That is the point of bringing up the physical and economic damage a Ryder truck full of explosives in the right place could do: we know this is a method these groups might consider, because they've used truck bombs in the past. Yet we've changed absolutely nothing in the truck rental process. Driver's license, credit card, here's the keys, there's the truck. The "other side of the debate" is the fact that 500 lbs of explosives in a Cessna is scary to the general public. And why do you feel is this the case? Sydney |
#28
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"John Harlow" wrote in
: This whole thing is either going to blow over in another year or two, or it's going to get worse. Do you think that you are going to be able to do anything about it if the TSA decides to put in Permanent Restrictions that ARE effective at protecting the country from a GA Suicide Bomber? You have totally missed the points. 1 - TSRs _only_ impact law abiding people. Circles on a sectional will not stop someone out to kill themselves. True for small TFRs like the stadium TFRs. But not true for the ADIZ and larger TFRs (like 30NM Presidential ones). If a controller sees a 1200 squawk within 30NM of Washington, DC, what do you think happens next? 2 - GA had *nothing* to do with 9/11, and GA is the *only* group affected by TSRs. GA is what the people are afraid of because the TSA has been able to convince people that waving a metal detector wand in front of all the passengers on airlines and taking away tweasers is security enough to cover them, and now they are safe. "But what about those little planes who don't go through security?" people ask. So the TSA's answer is, "We put restrictions on them, and now you are safe again." What "restrictions" could they possibly put in place to effectively prevent a "GA suicide bomber" anyway? Pull a Daley and bulldoze all the grass strips and farms in the country? How about metal detectors and airline-style security systems in all airports? Or Permanent Flight Restrictions in the areas that are now Temporary, or more ADIZ Zones preventing GA pilots from flying over populated areas without discrete transponder codes and two-way communication with ATC? |
#29
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On Wed, 09 Jul 2003 11:04:33 -0400, John Harlow wrote:
In the US the only real choices at the presidential level are Democrats and Republicans Unfortunately, it only seems that way because most people don't think other parties stand a chance. However, I think as more people get fed up with personal liberties (and incomes) getting gobbled up by government, more will seriously consider alternatives. Check out www.lp.org if you have a few minutes. Have you ever heard about Harry Browne? The same dick who grabbed control of Libertarian party and turned it into his pocket toy. It has nothing to with libertarians now. The most important thing about alternative parties you should know is that they are populated with and governed by political rejects who have a lot of ambition but no ability to make it in life (that is, in the two majors). This is the reason they keep losing, BTW. -- Pete |
#30
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1 - TSRs _only_ impact law abiding people. Circles on a sectional will
not stop someone out to kill themselves. True for small TFRs like the stadium TFRs. But not true for the ADIZ and larger TFRs (like 30NM Presidential ones). If a controller sees a 1200 squawk within 30NM of Washington, DC, what do you think happens next? Well, it has happend many times so far and I've seen no action taken (i.e. blowing them out of the sky) which would have stopped a suicide bomber. So, how have TSRs been effective? None whatsoever. They're just a nusiance. 2 - GA had *nothing* to do with 9/11, and GA is the *only* group affected by TSRs. GA is what the people are afraid of Where do you get THIS from? because the TSA has been able to convince people that waving a metal detector wand in front of all the passengers on airlines and taking away tweasers is security enough to cover them, and now they are safe. "But what about those little planes who don't go through security?" people ask. What people? What is your source for such statements? So the TSA's answer is, "We put restrictions on them, and now you are safe again." Take the kid who crashed into the Bank Of America building in florida. No TSR would have stopped that, BTW. And actually it showed how little capacity a small plane has for destruction. I believe a person's window and desk was demolished. Frankly, it was good for GA. What "restrictions" could they possibly put in place to effectively prevent a "GA suicide bomber" anyway? Pull a Daley and bulldoze all the grass strips and farms in the country? How about metal detectors and airline-style security systems in all airports? Or Permanent Flight Restrictions in the areas that are now Temporary, or more ADIZ Zones preventing GA pilots from flying over populated areas without discrete transponder codes and two-way communication with ATC? Yes. This would definitely stop all law abiding suicide bombers. Bottom line is: the only *real* way to prevent this is to ground all aircraft and shoot down any which may get in the air. |
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