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Paraglider pilot missing in eastern Nevada



 
 
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  #21  
Old September 2nd 20, 01:30 AM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
2G
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Default Paraglider pilot missing in eastern Nevada

On Tuesday, September 1, 2020 at 10:22:05 AM UTC-7, Ramy wrote:
Tom you realize you don’t know what you talking about? Paragliders fly much faster and farther than you think. In fact some of these guys often fly 300-500km in paragliders.
Also the safety record of “these idiots” as you call them is in fact better than gliders. There are many more paraglider pilots and paraglider flights than sailplanes, with lower fatality rate. Sure they get injured much more often, but most of their accidents are survivable. We lost more glider pilots in Nevada than paraglider pilots. They certainly carry a lot of water with them, and can easily land on any dirt road and walk. And since many of them are younger and in better shape than many of us, they can walk out 20+ miles to the nearest road. They fly with 2M ham radios which reaches far more than “few miles” I believe further than our hand held radios, and can also use ham relays and other technologies.. And most of them fly with trackers.
Perhaps non soaring pilots can make judgments on anyone who chose to fly light aircrafts without engines in the middle of nowhere, but not us.

Ramy


The authorities put in over 4,000 hours of time looking for this guy w/o success. That's TWO MAN YEARS (https://www.usnews.com/news/best-sta...nd-paraglider). There were cu-nims in the area the day he flew, unsuitable conditions for paragliders in my opinion. This is from Wikipedia (not me):
Due to the paramotor's [same aerodynamics as a paraglider] slow forward speed and nature of a soft wing, it is not safe in high winds, turbulence, or intense thermal activity.
And:
Over the years 1994−2010, an average of seven in every 10,000 active paraglider pilots have been fatally injured

The range of the radios was estimated by his friend who flew with him that day. Ham radios are not aviation radios, so you can't communicate with other aircraft, particularly on 121.5. As you well know, 20 miles in that country can just make you that much more lost - and that's assuming they land w/o injury. I don't know how much water he was carrying, but it certainly wasn't enough for a full day (1 gallon). The guy covered about 54 miles in 3 hours, or averaged about 18 mph.

This is Oroc/Johnston's own account of looking for another missing paraglider pilot (who did survive):
https://xcmag.com/news/the-last-flig...kiwi-johnston/
So, he knew exactly how hard it is to find these guys. And his buddies waited a FULL DAY to report them missing, and, then, ONLY at the urging of an Ely glider pilot - not that it made much difference in the end.

I have done actual retrieves of fellow glider pilots in this terrain, and know how really bad it is. You may not want to judge these guys, but I am trying to save lives here. As such, I make NO apologies for these criticisms. You can do as YOU wish!

  #22  
Old September 2nd 20, 03:11 AM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
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Default Paraglider pilot missing in eastern Nevada

I won't fly in the desert with less than two and a half gallons of water and enough material to make and seed 10 solar stills. I spent 8 years flying in the desert and mountains. Both will kill you if you do not respect them.

  #23  
Old September 2nd 20, 03:29 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
Dan Marotta
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Default Paraglider pilot missing in eastern Nevada

Dammit Tom, you've got to stop clouding speculation with facts!

On 9/1/2020 6:30 PM, 2G wrote:
On Tuesday, September 1, 2020 at 10:22:05 AM UTC-7, Ramy wrote:
Tom you realize you don’t know what you talking about? Paragliders fly much faster and farther than you think. In fact some of these guys often fly 300-500km in paragliders.
Also the safety record of “these idiots” as you call them is in fact better than gliders. There are many more paraglider pilots and paraglider flights than sailplanes, with lower fatality rate. Sure they get injured much more often, but most of their accidents are survivable. We lost more glider pilots in Nevada than paraglider pilots. They certainly carry a lot of water with them, and can easily land on any dirt road and walk. And since many of them are younger and in better shape than many of us, they can walk out 20+ miles to the nearest road. They fly with 2M ham radios which reaches far more than “few miles” I believe further than our hand held radios, and can also use ham relays and other technologies. And most of them fly with trackers.
Perhaps non soaring pilots can make judgments on anyone who chose to fly light aircrafts without engines in the middle of nowhere, but not us.

Ramy

The authorities put in over 4,000 hours of time looking for this guy w/o success. That's TWO MAN YEARS (https://www.usnews.com/news/best-sta...nd-paraglider). There were cu-nims in the area the day he flew, unsuitable conditions for paragliders in my opinion. This is from Wikipedia (not me):
Due to the paramotor's [same aerodynamics as a paraglider] slow forward speed and nature of a soft wing, it is not safe in high winds, turbulence, or intense thermal activity.
And:
Over the years 1994−2010, an average of seven in every 10,000 active paraglider pilots have been fatally injured

The range of the radios was estimated by his friend who flew with him that day. Ham radios are not aviation radios, so you can't communicate with other aircraft, particularly on 121.5. As you well know, 20 miles in that country can just make you that much more lost - and that's assuming they land w/o injury. I don't know how much water he was carrying, but it certainly wasn't enough for a full day (1 gallon). The guy covered about 54 miles in 3 hours, or averaged about 18 mph.

This is Oroc/Johnston's own account of looking for another missing paraglider pilot (who did survive):
https://xcmag.com/news/the-last-flig...kiwi-johnston/
So, he knew exactly how hard it is to find these guys. And his buddies waited a FULL DAY to report them missing, and, then, ONLY at the urging of an Ely glider pilot - not that it made much difference in the end.

I have done actual retrieves of fellow glider pilots in this terrain, and know how really bad it is. You may not want to judge these guys, but I am trying to save lives here. As such, I make NO apologies for these criticisms. You can do as YOU wish!


--
Dan, 5J
  #24  
Old September 2nd 20, 09:18 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
andy l
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Posts: 64
Default Paraglider pilot missing in eastern Nevada

I don't know the area at all (and I'm in a different country), but it struck me the previous claims about amateur radio kit was a bit of a stretch.

Propagation won't be significantly different at 144 MHz than it is at 118-137 MHz - mainly line of sight, with sometimes tropospheric ducting extending range in high pressure areas, and handheld versions of either will be similar power. I'd speculate, though I could be corrected, that what seems to be described here as desert might have not much talkthrough repeater coverage.

On Wednesday, 2 September 2020 at 15:29:43 UTC+1, Dan Marotta wrote:
Dammit Tom, you've got to stop clouding speculation with facts!

  #25  
Old September 3rd 20, 12:03 AM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
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Posts: 145
Default Paraglider pilot missing in eastern Nevada

On Tuesday, September 1, 2020 at 5:30:42 PM UTC-7, 2G wrote:
On Tuesday, September 1, 2020 at 10:22:05 AM UTC-7, Ramy wrote:
Tom you realize you don’t know what you talking about? Paragliders fly much faster and farther than you think. In fact some of these guys often fly 300-500km in paragliders.
Also the safety record of “these idiots” as you call them is in fact better than gliders. There are many more paraglider pilots and paraglider flights than sailplanes, with lower fatality rate. Sure they get injured much more often, but most of their accidents are survivable. We lost more glider pilots in Nevada than paraglider pilots. They certainly carry a lot of water with them, and can easily land on any dirt road and walk.. And since many of them are younger and in better shape than many of us, they can walk out 20+ miles to the nearest road. They fly with 2M ham radios which reaches far more than “few miles” I believe further than our hand held radios, and can also use ham relays and other technologies. And most of them fly with trackers.
Perhaps non soaring pilots can make judgments on anyone who chose to fly light aircrafts without engines in the middle of nowhere, but not us.

Ramy


The authorities put in over 4,000 hours of time looking for this guy w/o success. That's TWO MAN YEARS (https://www.usnews.com/news/best-sta...nd-paraglider). There were cu-nims in the area the day he flew, unsuitable conditions for paragliders in my opinion. This is from Wikipedia (not me):
Due to the paramotor's [same aerodynamics as a paraglider] slow forward speed and nature of a soft wing, it is not safe in high winds, turbulence, or intense thermal activity.
And:
Over the years 1994−2010, an average of seven in every 10,000 active paraglider pilots have been fatally injured

The range of the radios was estimated by his friend who flew with him that day. Ham radios are not aviation radios, so you can't communicate with other aircraft, particularly on 121.5. As you well know, 20 miles in that country can just make you that much more lost - and that's assuming they land w/o injury. I don't know how much water he was carrying, but it certainly wasn't enough for a full day (1 gallon). The guy covered about 54 miles in 3 hours, or averaged about 18 mph.

This is Oroc/Johnston's own account of looking for another missing paraglider pilot (who did survive):
https://xcmag.com/news/the-last-flig...kiwi-johnston/
So, he knew exactly how hard it is to find these guys. And his buddies waited a FULL DAY to report them missing, and, then, ONLY at the urging of an Ely glider pilot - not that it made much difference in the end.

I have done actual retrieves of fellow glider pilots in this terrain, and know how really bad it is. You may not want to judge these guys, but I am trying to save lives here. As such, I make NO apologies for these criticisms. You can do as YOU wish!


2G, if he crashed why didn't they find him, or anything else near his last inreach coordinates? Surely there would have been a canopy somewhere? So, yes, you are speculating. As usual.

  #26  
Old September 3rd 20, 12:50 AM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
AS
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Posts: 653
Default Paraglider pilot missing in eastern Nevada

On Wednesday, September 2, 2020 at 7:03:56 PM UTC-4, wrote:
On Tuesday, September 1, 2020 at 5:30:42 PM UTC-7, 2G wrote:
On Tuesday, September 1, 2020 at 10:22:05 AM UTC-7, Ramy wrote:
Tom you realize you don’t know what you talking about? Paragliders fly much faster and farther than you think. In fact some of these guys often fly 300-500km in paragliders.
Also the safety record of “these idiots” as you call them is in fact better than gliders. There are many more paraglider pilots and paraglider flights than sailplanes, with lower fatality rate. Sure they get injured much more often, but most of their accidents are survivable. We lost more glider pilots in Nevada than paraglider pilots. They certainly carry a lot of water with them, and can easily land on any dirt road and walk. And since many of them are younger and in better shape than many of us, they can walk out 20+ miles to the nearest road. They fly with 2M ham radios which reaches far more than “few miles” I believe further than our hand held radios, and can also use ham relays and other technologies. And most of them fly with trackers.
Perhaps non soaring pilots can make judgments on anyone who chose to fly light aircrafts without engines in the middle of nowhere, but not us.

Ramy


The authorities put in over 4,000 hours of time looking for this guy w/o success. That's TWO MAN YEARS (https://www.usnews.com/news/best-sta...nd-paraglider). There were cu-nims in the area the day he flew, unsuitable conditions for paragliders in my opinion. This is from Wikipedia (not me):
Due to the paramotor's [same aerodynamics as a paraglider] slow forward speed and nature of a soft wing, it is not safe in high winds, turbulence, or intense thermal activity.
And:
Over the years 1994−2010, an average of seven in every 10,000 active paraglider pilots have been fatally injured

The range of the radios was estimated by his friend who flew with him that day. Ham radios are not aviation radios, so you can't communicate with other aircraft, particularly on 121.5. As you well know, 20 miles in that country can just make you that much more lost - and that's assuming they land w/o injury. I don't know how much water he was carrying, but it certainly wasn't enough for a full day (1 gallon). The guy covered about 54 miles in 3 hours, or averaged about 18 mph.

This is Oroc/Johnston's own account of looking for another missing paraglider pilot (who did survive):
https://xcmag.com/news/the-last-flig...kiwi-johnston/
So, he knew exactly how hard it is to find these guys. And his buddies waited a FULL DAY to report them missing, and, then, ONLY at the urging of an Ely glider pilot - not that it made much difference in the end.

I have done actual retrieves of fellow glider pilots in this terrain, and know how really bad it is. You may not want to judge these guys, but I am trying to save lives here. As such, I make NO apologies for these criticisms. You can do as YOU wish!


2G, if he crashed why didn't they find him, or anything else near his last inreach coordinates? Surely there would have been a canopy somewhere? So, yes, you are speculating. As usual.


Well, remember how long it took to find Steve Fossett in September of 2007? He went down in a power plane with big, rigid wings. They even initiated 'crowd searching' by having volunteers analyzing high-res areal photos of the target area and I think he was eventually found by hikers.
If this fellow here went down, the para-sail could be wadded up under a shrub or tree and it would take for someone to trip over it to find him. Also, this is definitely terrain, where you are no longer on top of the food chain. There are critters out there that will find you and will eat you - as happened to Steve Fossett!

Uli
'AS'
  #27  
Old September 3rd 20, 01:48 AM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
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Default Paraglider pilot missing in eastern Nevada

Not to hijack the thread, but I was seriously disappointed in the quality of radio communication when I left hang gliders for sailplanes. With 2M amateur band radios and the repeater system in use worldwide, like MANY savvy and dedicated hang glider pilots, I enjoyed crystal clear comms with fellow pilots and hundreds of discrete simplex and duplex frequencies. I often "dialed up" the freqs used in Telluride while flying in New Mexico just to talk to my buddies who were in the air in Colorado.

Once I got into sailplanes, I was forced to accept the low quality RX/TX, minimal frequency choices and lack of a repeater network. I almost felt like smoke signals would be about as good.

So I carry a tiny 2M radio just in case. (Along with cell phone, InReach, spare battery, etc.)
  #28  
Old September 3rd 20, 03:53 AM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
2G
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Posts: 1,439
Default Paraglider pilot missing in eastern Nevada

On Wednesday, September 2, 2020 at 4:03:56 PM UTC-7, wrote:
On Tuesday, September 1, 2020 at 5:30:42 PM UTC-7, 2G wrote:
On Tuesday, September 1, 2020 at 10:22:05 AM UTC-7, Ramy wrote:
Tom you realize you don’t know what you talking about? Paragliders fly much faster and farther than you think. In fact some of these guys often fly 300-500km in paragliders.
Also the safety record of “these idiots” as you call them is in fact better than gliders. There are many more paraglider pilots and paraglider flights than sailplanes, with lower fatality rate. Sure they get injured much more often, but most of their accidents are survivable. We lost more glider pilots in Nevada than paraglider pilots. They certainly carry a lot of water with them, and can easily land on any dirt road and walk. And since many of them are younger and in better shape than many of us, they can walk out 20+ miles to the nearest road. They fly with 2M ham radios which reaches far more than “few miles” I believe further than our hand held radios, and can also use ham relays and other technologies. And most of them fly with trackers.
Perhaps non soaring pilots can make judgments on anyone who chose to fly light aircrafts without engines in the middle of nowhere, but not us.

Ramy


The authorities put in over 4,000 hours of time looking for this guy w/o success. That's TWO MAN YEARS (https://www.usnews.com/news/best-sta...nd-paraglider). There were cu-nims in the area the day he flew, unsuitable conditions for paragliders in my opinion. This is from Wikipedia (not me):
Due to the paramotor's [same aerodynamics as a paraglider] slow forward speed and nature of a soft wing, it is not safe in high winds, turbulence, or intense thermal activity.
And:
Over the years 1994−2010, an average of seven in every 10,000 active paraglider pilots have been fatally injured

The range of the radios was estimated by his friend who flew with him that day. Ham radios are not aviation radios, so you can't communicate with other aircraft, particularly on 121.5. As you well know, 20 miles in that country can just make you that much more lost - and that's assuming they land w/o injury. I don't know how much water he was carrying, but it certainly wasn't enough for a full day (1 gallon). The guy covered about 54 miles in 3 hours, or averaged about 18 mph.

This is Oroc/Johnston's own account of looking for another missing paraglider pilot (who did survive):
https://xcmag.com/news/the-last-flig...kiwi-johnston/
So, he knew exactly how hard it is to find these guys. And his buddies waited a FULL DAY to report them missing, and, then, ONLY at the urging of an Ely glider pilot - not that it made much difference in the end.

I have done actual retrieves of fellow glider pilots in this terrain, and know how really bad it is. You may not want to judge these guys, but I am trying to save lives here. As such, I make NO apologies for these criticisms. You can do as YOU wish!

2G, if he crashed why didn't they find him, or anything else near his last inreach coordinates? Surely there would have been a canopy somewhere? So, yes, you are speculating. As usual.


That is a VERY GOOD question. Remember, they couldn't find Steve Fossett's crash site even though they had over-flown it several times searching for him. Most likely Johnston's canopy deflated and he became entangled in it, preventing the use of his emergency chute (just like his friend's, Xavier, accident). This would make for a very small crash site footprint, which may be in rocks. And it would also depend upon the color of his wing, which could easily blend in with the surroundings.

Tom
  #29  
Old September 3rd 20, 05:11 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
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Default Paraglider pilot missing in eastern Nevada

On Wednesday, September 2, 2020 at 8:48:37 PM UTC-4, wrote:
Not to hijack the thread, but I was seriously disappointed in the quality of radio communication when I left hang gliders for sailplanes. With 2M amateur band radios and the repeater system in use worldwide, like MANY savvy and dedicated hang glider pilots, I enjoyed crystal clear comms with fellow pilots and hundreds of discrete simplex and duplex frequencies. I often "dialed up" the freqs used in Telluride while flying in New Mexico just to talk to my buddies who were in the air in Colorado.

Once I got into sailplanes, I was forced to accept the low quality RX/TX, minimal frequency choices and lack of a repeater network. I almost felt like smoke signals would be about as good.

So I carry a tiny 2M radio just in case. (Along with cell phone, InReach, spare battery, etc.)


Besides the lack of repeaters for aviation frequencies, the low quality reception is due to the use of AM, while other VHF users, including ham radio, use FM. The reason for sticking with AM, beside the historical inertia since the 1940's, is that reflections of the radio waves off a rotating propeller would add a frequency wobble (due to Doppler effect) that would cause audible noise in an FM receiver. Or so I'm told. Anybody tried ham radio - or broadcast FM - reception in a powered plane?

I wonder why they don't make aviation radios that you can switch between AM (talking to ATC) and FM (while talking with compatible buddies in gliders)? The same bandwidth around the same frequency should be legal?
  #30  
Old September 3rd 20, 07:32 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
Dan Daly[_2_]
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Default Paraglider pilot missing in eastern Nevada

On Thursday, September 3, 2020 at 12:11:57 PM UTC-4, wrote:
On Wednesday, September 2, 2020 at 8:48:37 PM UTC-4, wrote:
Not to hijack the thread, but I was seriously disappointed in the quality of radio communication when I left hang gliders for sailplanes. With 2M amateur band radios and the repeater system in use worldwide, like MANY savvy and dedicated hang glider pilots, I enjoyed crystal clear comms with fellow pilots and hundreds of discrete simplex and duplex frequencies. I often "dialed up" the freqs used in Telluride while flying in New Mexico just to talk to my buddies who were in the air in Colorado.

Once I got into sailplanes, I was forced to accept the low quality RX/TX, minimal frequency choices and lack of a repeater network. I almost felt like smoke signals would be about as good.

So I carry a tiny 2M radio just in case. (Along with cell phone, InReach, spare battery, etc.)


Besides the lack of repeaters for aviation frequencies, the low quality reception is due to the use of AM, while other VHF users, including ham radio, use FM. The reason for sticking with AM, beside the historical inertia since the 1940's, is that reflections of the radio waves off a rotating propeller would add a frequency wobble (due to Doppler effect) that would cause audible noise in an FM receiver. Or so I'm told. Anybody tried ham radio - or broadcast FM - reception in a powered plane?

I wonder why they don't make aviation radios that you can switch between AM (talking to ATC) and FM (while talking with compatible buddies in gliders)? The same bandwidth around the same frequency should be legal?


On Maritime Patrol aircraft we had VHF-AM (ATC) and VHF-FM (Maritime radio) among others (UHF/HF/Satcom). P3's have 4 very large propellers. There was no frequency wobble or audible noise on VHF-FM. I think you might have been led astray.
 




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