We Are All Spaniards

Doug Carter wrote in message ...
Alex wrote:
You seem to speak about countries bombed by the US / Allies. I am
speaking about countries where the US played behind the scenes and
helped in the country's destruction, not of their buildings, but of
their people. And being unofficial and behind the scenes, and there
being no bombed buildings, there is no rebuilding involved. It's not
even half empty. It's empty. Period.

I was sort of hoping for specific cases with verifiable
assertions of fact instead of vague demogarary.

As I said to Rob, go search google. There you can find verifiable
assertions. I don't know where you can read your government's
declasified documents to actually verify what you find in the net, but
I'm sure you know.

Direct U.S. foreign aid runs about $15-20b/year (before
special accounts like Iraq). Unless the U.S. is
endeavoring to destroy "most" countries out of pure malice
then this wanton destruction would seem to be rather short
sighted economics.

I never said the motivation was pure malice. I'm sure Nixon and
Kissinger thought it was very rational to plant puppet dictatorships
in South America, and I'm sure Bush had a very rational reason to
invade Irak (whatever that reason is). I'm just saying that their
decissions have usually dreadful effects on people around the world.
The image of US as the good guy, as Hollywood pretends to portray
movie after movie, as the US propaganda, is simply false.

Also, countries are not monolitic entities that always act rationally.
For example, one theory of why Bush invaded Irak is that his father's
friends are making loads of money getting the reconstruction
contracts. They say they even signed up those contracts before the
bombs fell! So, in other words, it doesn't have to make economic sense
for the US, as long as it benefits the individuals in power.

Well said.

There are doers and whiners. These are synonyms for
winners and losers.


Jay Honeck wrote:

Well, I enjoy a nice standard of living, true enough. Although my yearly
income is currently far less than that of an entry-level grade school
teacher.
But I got here by working since I was 13. This is now the third business
I've started from scratch, and working 80 hour weeks is the norm, not the
exception.

The only thing that separates people like me from the rest of the world's
population is the fact that America lets someone who works hard succeed --
period. THAT is what makes the United States the envy of the world.
Work hard, be persistent, and success will likely follow.

Right now I employ several excellent people who, had they made better
choices in the past, would be working in higher-paying jobs. But they are
*working* and succeeding, some are attending university classes to better
themselves (and make themselves more employable) and eventually they will
work their way up to a better, higher paying position, probably in another
company. They haven't given up, and they -- unlike so many people I talk to
and have interviewed -- do not feel that the world "owes" them a nice
standard of living.

In my experience, there are two types of failures. The first kind are
involved with drugs and alcohol, or who suffer a mental illness. They are
basket cases for a myriad of reasons, and I don't regard them as anything
but sick people.

The second group are folks who truly worry me. They are the ones who burn
with resentment that "the Man" has denied them something, who portray
themselves as "victims," and who feel "entitled" to a better life. In my
experience, these are the same workers who routinely show up late, cheat on
their timecards, steal and lie.

Does this mean regular working people don't suffer occasional set-backs? Of
course not. George, and millions just like him, will find work, eventually,
and they will get on with their lives. And I've had more than my share of
ups and downs, too.

It's called "life"... And no one gets off of this planet alive.

Alex wrote:
Doug Carter wrote in message ...

I was sort of hoping for specific cases with verifiable
assertions of fact instead of vague demogarary.


As I said to Rob, go search google. There you can find verifiable
assertions. I don't know where you can read your government's
declasified documents to actually verify what you find in the net, but
I'm sure you know.


I understand; you have no actual data, just emotional
outrage driven by the last vague collection of "facts" you
picked up somewhere.


I never said the motivation was pure malice. I'm sure Nixon and
Kissinger thought it was very rational to plant puppet dictatorships
in South America,

You are sure, *but* you have no data, no facts, no clue
other than what you pick up on www.black.helicopter.com.

For example, one theory of why Bush invaded Irak is that his father's
friends are making loads of money getting the reconstruction
contracts. They say they even signed up those contracts before the
bombs fell!

I suppose you are referring to the famous "Dick Cheny's"
Halliburton. The Johnson family has a far greater
interest in Halliburton than Dick Cheny ever hoped to.
Perhaps Dick is actually a mole for the Democratic party
and power base!

By the way, do you have a mailto address for *They*?

Alex wrote:

What? I thought we'd extended NAFTA to South America, and joined GATT
and the WTO... We've been buying Mexican and Venezuelan oil for
decades, etc, etc, etc...


Ok, I was talking about southamerican countries where the US installed
dictatorships. Trade was not the motivation and the current lack of
trade agreements in those countries proves it.


In 2002 the U.S. exported commodities worth some $29
billions to South America and imported $48 billions worth.
See:
http://www.ita.doc.gov/td/industry/o...ea/rsamer.html

If trade is not the motivation to install dictatorships
what was it?

In article c9Wac.155168$Cb.1606465@attbi_s51, Jay Honeck wrote:
It's called "life"... And no one gets off of this planet alive.

Well, not quite. I get off this planet as regularly as possible. Sure I
might not escape the atmosphere, but I do get off the planet.

Oh, and tell that to someone like Buzz Aldrin :-)

--
Dylan Smith, Castletown, Isle of Man
Flying: http://www.dylansmith.net
Frontier Elite Universe: http://www.alioth.net
"Maintain thine airspeed, lest the ground come up and smite thee"

"Jay Honeck" wrote in message news:c9Wac.155168$Cb.1606465@attbi_s51...
The only thing that separates people like me from the rest of the world's
population is the fact that America lets someone who works hard succeed --
period. THAT is what makes the United States the envy of the world.
Work hard, be persistent, and success will likely follow.

Get off your horse, Jay! In most places, if you work hard, you
succeed. I don't think you can say the US is the envy of the world.
Maybe Canada. But definetely not the US! There's a lot of positive
things about the US, but then again there's lot of negative things
about it too... I wouldn't be so patronizing if I were you.

The second group are folks who truly worry me. They are the ones who burn
with resentment that "the Man" has denied them something, who portray
themselves as "victims," and who feel "entitled" to a better life. In my
experience, these are the same workers who routinely show up late, cheat on
their timecards, steal and lie.

I'm not sure why you bought this into the discussion. If you are
implying that third world coutries expect to be saved by the US, look
again. Quite on the contrary, most contries are happy to live without
US "help". The only thing that makes the US attractive is the big
market.

"Doug Carter" wrote in message
...
Well said.

There are doers and whiners. These are synonyms for
winners and losers.



Quite!
And, as I've quoted befo

--
"It's said that criminals behave as they do
because of their lack of economic opportunities.
Actually, it's more that they have no economic
opportunities BECAUSE they are criminals."

(Alex) wrote:

I'm afraid you'll have to prove this one with a bit more than
something like the shrill content of "FSTV".

Rob, honestly. Just because you ignore something doesn't mean I have
to prove it to you. Search for the information yourself. For example,
do the following search in google: ["Plan Condor" "CIA"] THere

Nosir. Packing me off to guerillanews.com does not prove your point.
At best, it will parrot your point, maybe supply some supporting
information.

Doesn't follow. I'm more unique than virtually every American in the
respect that I've actually lived overseas.

South America is overseas?

I can see where this is going, and I'm just not interested in that
kind of conversation.

Rob

Doug Carter wrote in message ...
Alex wrote:

What? I thought we'd extended NAFTA to South America, and joined GATT
and the WTO... We've been buying Mexican and Venezuelan oil for
decades, etc, etc, etc...


Ok, I was talking about southamerican countries where the US installed
dictatorships. Trade was not the motivation and the current lack of
trade agreements in those countries proves it.

In 2002 the U.S. exported commodities worth some $29
billions to South America and imported $48 billions worth.
See:
http://www.ita.doc.gov/td/industry/o...ea/rsamer.html

Doug, please!!! I said there are no trade AGREEMENTS, not that there
was no trade whatsoever! I was answering Rob's totally naive
assumption that the US would only interfere with foreign governments
to help people, enhance their living standard, make trade agreements,
etc.

If trade is not the motivation to install dictatorships
what was it?

Do you really need me to spell it out for you?

The US installed numerous dictatorships in South America for one
reason: the fear that somehow communism would take hold of what US
considered its "backyard". Your dear politicians decided it was better
to have tens of thousands of innocent people tortured and killed so
you could live comfortably in your cozy homes. Even when there was no
intention of these countries of turning "Cuba".

Have you ever heard of a movie called "Missing"? This is a 1982
nonfiction movie, with Jack Lemmon and Sissy Spacek. Unless you fear
your beliefs can be shaken by a simple movie, I dare you to watch it.

Before you tell me that a movie can lie, please remember that you are
talking with a witness of the kind of horror that this movie shows.
And it doesn't even show all that happened. Once you have seen it, add
torture and violation of pregnant women, appropriation of babies and
denial of their true identity... I live in a country that has gone
through that. I have been personally affected.

And just to show you how futile the US tactics regarding "lefties"
were, the current president of Argentina is precisely the kind of
"lefty" the US was most worried about back in the 70's. He survived
the US backed local military and now is in power. Does that represent
a threat to the US? Of course not, as it didn't 30 years ago, but your
politicians were so paranoid about it that they went along with the
killings.

McCarthy was considered crazy and you all still remember how it hurt
the US. We were killed by the thousands by that very same paranoia,
yet you managed to convince yourself that it didn't happen, that the
US stands only for freedom and peace. Even in the face of current
events, where literally the same "preventive attack" tactics are being
used, you still defend it.

It makes me sick.

Rob Perkins wrote in message . ..
(Alex) wrote:

I'm afraid you'll have to prove this one with a bit more than
something like the shrill content of "FSTV".

Rob, honestly. Just because you ignore something doesn't mean I have
to prove it to you. Search for the information yourself. For example,
do the following search in google: ["Plan Condor" "CIA"] THere

Nosir. Packing me off to guerillanews.com does not prove your point.
At best, it will parrot your point, maybe supply some supporting
information.

You're incredible, Rob. Google returns 2130 hits and you pick the one
that has less credibility to rub it on my face. Like I'm responsible
for each and every freaking site that Google indexes. You're
priceless!

Ok, I'll do your work for you. The second and fourth sites found in
Google (the first one being the gerrillanews site), a

http://www.counterpunch.org/solo10012003.html
http://www.crimesofwar.org/special/condor.html

From the first:

"Argentina--30,000 reasons to cry Three years after destroying
democracy by instigating the military coup against Salvador Allende in
Chile in 1973, Henry Kissinger was in Santiago for a meeting of the
Organization of American States. There he met the Argentinian military
junta's foreign minister. According to Robert Hill, then U.S.
Ambassador in Argentina, "Kissinger asked how long it would take ...
to clean up the (terrorist) problem....Kissinger gave the Argentines
the green light ... The Secretary wanted Argentina to finish its
terrorist plan before year end." [2] Hill should know. It was he who
served as intermediary between organizers of the Guatemalan death
squads and leading figures in the Argentinian government.[3]"

"Between 1976 and 1983, under the military dictatorship, the
Argentinian armed forces killed over 30,000 civilian members of the
country's political opposition. Around 500 babies of women who gave
birth in detention were distributed among their parents' murderers. In
over 300 camps and detention centres, victims were tortured to death
and then dumped in mass graves or flown out to be dropped into the
Atlantic from military transport planes. Their property and goods were
divided up among their torturers and murderers--over US$70m worth."

From the second:

"Recently declassified documents add weight to the thesis that U.S.
forces secretly aided and facilitated Condor operations. The U.S.
government considered the Latin American militaries to be allies in
the Cold War, worked closely with their intelligence organizations,
and promoted coordinated action and modernization of their
capabilities. As shown here, U.S. executive agencies at least
condoned, and sometimes actively assisted, some Condor
"countersubversive" operations."

And that's without leaving the first page of results. You are one lazy
person, Rob.