Missed approach procedure...

If the missed approach on the IAP says something like:

heading of 270 to 4000
Intercept the XXX VOR R-180
Direct to XXX VOR

What should you do if you get to R-180 before you get to 4000?

Keep climbing on 270 to 4000?

Turn and track the R-180 while climbing?

The IAP has no minimum climb gradient specified.

What minimum climb gradient is assumed if none is specified?

On Fri, 07 Nov 2003 15:54:41 -0800, wrote:

If the missed approach on the IAP says something like:

heading of 270 to 4000
Intercept the XXX VOR R-180
Direct to XXX VOR

What should you do if you get to R-180 before you get to 4000?

Keep climbing on 270 to 4000?

Turn and track the R-180 while climbing?

Follow the procedure (keep climbing on 270 until 4000 feet then turn
back to intercept the radial. It is possible that unless you are at
4000 you may not want to be on that radial.


The IAP has no minimum climb gradient specified.

What minimum climb gradient is assumed if none is specified?

200 feet per nautical mile.

"ArtP" wrote in message
...
On Fri, 07 Nov 2003 15:54:41 -0800, wrote:

If the missed approach on the IAP says something like:

heading of 270 to 4000
Intercept the XXX VOR R-180
Direct to XXX VOR

What should you do if you get to R-180 before you get to 4000?

Keep climbing on 270 to 4000?

Turn and track the R-180 while climbing?

Follow the procedure (keep climbing on 270 until 4000 feet then turn
back to intercept the radial. It is possible that unless you are at
4000 you may not want to be on that radial.

I think it far more likely that ATC will expect the pilot to remain on the
specified course and if an obstruction was a problem there would be a
minimum gradient specified or a minimum crossing.

I would interpret the above missed instruction as "climb and maintain 4000,
maintain heading of 270 to intercept the 180 radial inbound..." without a
second thought.

Perhaps an example from "nospam" of an actual plate would be more
instructive.

-Greg





The IAP has no minimum climb gradient specified.

What minimum climb gradient is assumed if none is specified?

200 feet per nautical mile.

On Sat, 08 Nov 2003 02:01:13 GMT, "Greg Goodknight"
wrote:


"ArtP" wrote in message
.. .
On Fri, 07 Nov 2003 15:54:41 -0800, wrote:

If the missed approach on the IAP says something like:

heading of 270 to 4000
Intercept the XXX VOR R-180
Direct to XXX VOR

What should you do if you get to R-180 before you get to 4000?

Keep climbing on 270 to 4000?

Turn and track the R-180 while climbing?

Follow the procedure (keep climbing on 270 until 4000 feet then turn
back to intercept the radial. It is possible that unless you are at
4000 you may not want to be on that radial.

I think it far more likely that ATC will expect the pilot to remain on the
specified course and if an obstruction was a problem there would be a
minimum gradient specified or a minimum crossing.

According to the AIM (Instrument Departures) a climb gradient
would only be specified if a climb of greater than 200 feet per
nautical mile were required. Without an indication of a climbing turn
via I would continue on the specified heading until the specified
altitude were reached.


I would interpret the above missed instruction as "climb and maintain 4000,
maintain heading of 270 to intercept the 180 radial inbound..." without a
second thought.

Take a look at FQD LOC RWY 1 for an example of a climb then a
climbing turn. Take a look at RWI VOR/DME 22 for an example of a climb
via an intercepted radial (the method you are describing). Take a look
at RDU NDB RWY 5R for another example.


Perhaps an example from "nospam" of an actual plate would be more
instructive.

I agree.

"ArtP" wrote in message
...
On Sat, 08 Nov 2003 02:01:13 GMT, "Greg Goodknight"
wrote:


"ArtP" wrote in message
.. .
On Fri, 07 Nov 2003 15:54:41 -0800, wrote:

If the missed approach on the IAP says something like:

heading of 270 to 4000
Intercept the XXX VOR R-180
Direct to XXX VOR

What should you do if you get to R-180 before you get to 4000?

Keep climbing on 270 to 4000?

Turn and track the R-180 while climbing?

Follow the procedure (keep climbing on 270 until 4000 feet then turn
back to intercept the radial. It is possible that unless you are at
4000 you may not want to be on that radial.

I think it far more likely that ATC will expect the pilot to remain on
the
specified course and if an obstruction was a problem there would be a
minimum gradient specified or a minimum crossing.

According to the AIM (Instrument Departures) a climb gradient
would only be specified if a climb of greater than 200 feet per
nautical mile were required. Without an indication of a climbing turn
via I would continue on the specified heading until the specified
altitude were reached.

Perhaps if you found just one missed approach, or any procedure that
specifies passing through a radial and doubling back after a specified
altitude without the benefit of any course guidance; remember, the
hypothetical was just flying a heading until the radial was intercepted. I
can't imagine a course reversal ever being implied in free space.

The hypothetical seemed flawed to me, hence my request for an real example
from "nospam". If I was faced with the actual wording posed and ATC was not
available, I would not be playing FAR Bingo, I'd fly the course specified
and not invent a new one because of a possibility of an implied altitude
problem.

-Greg



I would interpret the above missed instruction as "climb and maintain
4000,
maintain heading of 270 to intercept the 180 radial inbound..." without a
second thought.

Take a look at FQD LOC RWY 1 for an example of a climb then a
climbing turn. Take a look at RWI VOR/DME 22 for an example of a climb
via an intercepted radial (the method you are describing). Take a look
at RDU NDB RWY 5R for another example.


Perhaps an example from "nospam" of an actual plate would be more
instructive.

I agree.

Perhaps an example from "nospam" of an actual plate would be more
instructive.

Take a look at the ILS to RWY 24 and (K)CRQ

This is where I saw the missed. It is not a good example as the missed
takes you out over the ocean and in fact either way you look at it, it
would be safe.

I'm just trying to understand in the general sense what the rules are.
In reading the recent AOPA magazine it had a sumary of accidents in
CA and one was someone getting a radar vector and assuming that he
could let down to the crossing altitude of the next segment.
He did this at night and it was fatal.

I understand that not understanding the subleties of what the rules
are for flying IFR can also be Fatal so I'm just trying to understand.

Another approach with a similar missed that is unlclear:

KCNO ILS RWY 26R

Missed:
Climb to 1400 then climbing left turn to 4000 direct PDZ and hold.

Looking at the plate missed seems to be about 4 mi from PDZ.
DH is 836 so at 200ft /mi 1400 gets you to 6 mi from PDZ
Assume that the turn gives you another 200 ft thats 1600 and 6 miles
at 200 per nm that gets you to PDZ and 2800.

The missed specifies 4000

So what do you do hold at PDZ and climb to 4000?

Again in this specific case it looks like that would be safe.

On Fri, 07 Nov 2003 20:45:57 -0800, wrote:


Take a look at the ILS to RWY 24 and (K)CRQ

This is where I saw the missed. It is not a good example as the missed
takes you out over the ocean and in fact either way you look at it, it
would be safe.

I would climb to 3000 then I would do the turn. If they wanted you to
turn before you reached 3000 they would have specified a climbing turn
or do what they did below (specify an altitude straight ahead and then
a climbing turn). When they specify a climb altitude before the turn,
you are expected to be at that altitude before you start the turn.


I'm just trying to understand in the general sense what the rules are.
In reading the recent AOPA magazine it had a sumary of accidents in
CA and one was someone getting a radar vector and assuming that he
could let down to the crossing altitude of the next segment.
He did this at night and it was fatal.

I understand that not understanding the subleties of what the rules
are for flying IFR can also be Fatal so I'm just trying to understand.

Another approach with a similar missed that is unlclear:

KCNO ILS RWY 26R

Missed:
Climb to 1400 then climbing left turn to 4000 direct PDZ and hold.

Looking at the plate missed seems to be about 4 mi from PDZ.
DH is 836 so at 200ft /mi 1400 gets you to 6 mi from PDZ
Assume that the turn gives you another 200 ft thats 1600 and 6 miles
at 200 per nm that gets you to PDZ and 2800.

The missed specifies 4000

So what do you do hold at PDZ and climb to 4000?


I would fly 255 until I reached 1400 feet. I would then do a
climbing left turn direct to PDZ. If by the time I got to PDZ I was
not at 4000 I would enter the hold and continue to climb until I
reached 4000.


Again in this specific case it looks like that would be safe.

wrote in message
...
Perhaps an example from "nospam" of an actual plate would be more
instructive.

Take a look at the ILS to RWY 24 and (K)CRQ

Had to look in the old logbook. Haven't flown there since 6/27/1974. Wonder
if it's changed much.


This is where I saw the missed. It is not a good example as the missed
takes you out over the ocean and in fact either way you look at it, it
would be safe.

You transcribed the meaning incorrectly. It says "Climb to 3000 via heading
245 and OCN R-145 to OCN VORTAC", which is, in essence, what I said I would
do. It doesn't say climb to 3000 on a heading of 245 and tben intercept. It
gives you a route (heading 245 and OCN R-145 to OCN) and an altitude
(3000')to climb to.



I'm just trying to understand in the general sense what the rules are.
In reading the recent AOPA magazine it had a sumary of accidents in
CA and one was someone getting a radar vector and assuming that he
could let down to the crossing altitude of the next segment.
He did this at night and it was fatal.

I understand that not understanding the subleties of what the rules
are for flying IFR can also be Fatal so I'm just trying to understand.

Another approach with a similar missed that is unlclear:

KCNO ILS RWY 26R

Gee, more of my old stomping grounds. I soloed at Chino on 1/16/1974.


Missed:
Climb to 1400 then climbing left turn to 4000 direct PDZ and hold.

This is also crystal clear and not at all similar. You climb to 1400 and
then continue a climb while turning direct to PDZ. There is no possibility
of overshooting a radial that needs to be intercepted.


Looking at the plate missed seems to be about 4 mi from PDZ.
DH is 836 so at 200ft /mi 1400 gets you to 6 mi from PDZ
Assume that the turn gives you another 200 ft thats 1600 and 6 miles
at 200 per nm that gets you to PDZ and 2800.

The missed specifies 4000

So keep climbing. Don't worry, SoCal Approach will be asking you about your
climb rate, and the initial climb to 1400 seems to be chosen to get you high
enough.


So what do you do hold at PDZ and climb to 4000?

Yep. Next time in your thought experiments, don't fly a C-150 under IFR with
full fuel and extra passengers in the baggage compartment and you'll climb
faster


Again in this specific case it looks like that would be safe.

yep!

cheers
-Greg

"ArtP" wrote in message
...
On Fri, 07 Nov 2003 20:45:57 -0800, wrote:


Take a look at the ILS to RWY 24 and (K)CRQ

This is where I saw the missed. It is not a good example as the missed
takes you out over the ocean and in fact either way you look at it, it
would be safe.

I would climb to 3000 then I would do the turn. If they wanted you to
turn before you reached 3000 they would have specified a climbing turn
or do what they did below (specify an altitude straight ahead and then
a climbing turn). When they specify a climb altitude before the turn,
you are expected to be at that altitude before you start the turn.

Assuming you are in radar contact (and that is a very good bet) if you
followed your own advice you would get a call from ATC asking you what
you're doing. The missed says to climb to 3000' via a specified route
consisting of a heading and a radial to intercept. If you are intercepting a
radial, a turn is implied.

-Greg

On Fri, 07 Nov 2003 20:45:57 -0800, wrote:

Perhaps an example from "nospam" of an actual plate would be more
instructive.

Take a look at the ILS to RWY 24 and (K)CRQ

This is where I saw the missed. It is not a good example as the missed
takes you out over the ocean and in fact either way you look at it, it
would be safe.

But it's also clear from the wording what you should do:

"Climb to 3000 via heading 245° *AND* OCN R-145 to OCN VORTAC"

I should say that it's clear to me g. Obviously it wasn't clear to you.

However, the sequence is that ATC gives you an altitude to climb to, and
then a route.

You fly 245 until you get to the R-145 and continue to climb on the R-145.

If they had wanted you to remain on the 245° heading until reaching 3000',
the wording would have been something like "Climb to 3000' via heading 245°
*then* via OCN R-145. If turn direction is important, it would be stated.



I'm just trying to understand in the general sense what the rules are.
In reading the recent AOPA magazine it had a sumary of accidents in
CA and one was someone getting a radar vector and assuming that he
could let down to the crossing altitude of the next segment.
He did this at night and it was fatal.

That's a different issue.

You should ALWAYS be at or above the minimum charted altitude for any route
of flight. (There may be a few rare exceptions).

If you are on an unpublished route or being radar vectored, the pilot
responsibilities include:

"(a) Complies with the minimum altitude for IFR; and

"(b) Maintains the last assigned altitude until established on a segment of
a published route or IAP, at which time published altitudes apply. "

You must BURN that into your head. Commercial airliners used to be
confused about this, too.

ATC has restrictions on what they can do, also, but ATC can make mistakes.


I understand that not understanding the subleties of what the rules
are for flying IFR can also be Fatal so I'm just trying to understand.

Another approach with a similar missed that is unlclear:

KCNO ILS RWY 26R

Missed:
Climb to 1400 then climbing left turn to 4000 direct PDZ and hold.


Again, just follow the directions in sequence:

1. Climb to 1400' (straight ahead is implied since it is not stated)
2. *THEN* climbing left turn to 4000'

If you are not at 4000' by PDZ, you should climb in the hold.

However, under ordinary circumstances with a minimum ROC and beginning your
missed approach at the MM, you should be pretty close to 4000' at or before
PDZ.

Hope this helps to clarify things.


Ron (EPM) (N5843Q, Mooney M20E) (CP, ASEL, ASES, IA)