Head orientation in turns--how is it taught for aviation?

On 2007-06-11 19:00:00 -0400, "Maxwell" said:


"Dudley Henriques" wrote in message
news:2007061116042375249-dhenriques@rcncom...
On 2007-06-11 12:39:10 -0400, "Maxwell" said:

No. Barrel rolls do NOT go negative generally. If you went negative you
would change the roll arc and destroy the roll. You can unload to 0 g
through the top however without destroying the roll arc, but if you do,
you have to reapply positive g almost immediately as you pass through
inverted to regain the roll arc. As I said, you can do a barrel roll at
any positive g; as tight or as little as the flight envelope for the
aircraft will allow up to 90 degrees of flight path direction change at
the roll apex.
Generally the roll profile will be the application of positive g above +1
from the roll initiation (either from level flight or from a slight dive
offset to gain energy if needed) followed by coordinated roll and back
pressure into the roll arc maintaining positive g with varying back
pressure to maintain the roll arc through the roll and through the
recovery back to the entry heading.
You can NOT at any time during a barrel roll, allow the g to go negative
as doing so will instantly destroy the arc of the roll.
Dudley Henriques


No it won't, and yes you can.

I'm sorry, but you are totally incorrect.
Dudley Henriques

Maxwell wrote:
You're ****ting us! Really!

An airplane leans in to the turns.



Well hell yes... When you want to turn an airplane, don't you just lean
over and it mysteriously goes there? Conversely, when you want to turn your
motorcycle at speed, don't you give the handlebars a good tweek in the
desired direction? What could be easier to understand? Unless you're a
narcissistic, arrogant, conceited, pious, prick..........

"ManhattanMan" wrote in
:

Maxwell wrote:
You're ****ting us! Really!

An airplane leans in to the turns.



Well hell yes... When you want to turn an airplane, don't you just
lean over and it mysteriously goes there? Conversely, when you want
to turn your motorcycle at speed, don't you give the handlebars a good
tweek in the desired direction?

Actually, when you want to go quickly in one direction or other on a
bike, you tweak the handlebars in the opposite direction to that of the
turn.


bertie

Bertie the Bunyip wrote:
"ManhattanMan" wrote in
:

Maxwell wrote:
You're ****ting us! Really!

An airplane leans in to the turns.



Well hell yes... When you want to turn an airplane, don't you just
lean over and it mysteriously goes there? Conversely, when you want
to turn your motorcycle at speed, don't you give the handlebars a
good tweek in the desired direction?

Actually, when you want to go quickly in one direction or other on a
bike, you tweak the handlebars in the opposite direction to that of
the turn.




Now you spoiled Mx's x-spurt answer....... durn.........

"ManhattanMan" wrote in news:6zmbi.559096
:

Bertie the Bunyip wrote:
"ManhattanMan" wrote in
:

Maxwell wrote:
You're ****ting us! Really!

An airplane leans in to the turns.



Well hell yes... When you want to turn an airplane, don't you just
lean over and it mysteriously goes there? Conversely, when you want
to turn your motorcycle at speed, don't you give the handlebars a
good tweek in the desired direction?

Actually, when you want to go quickly in one direction or other on a
bike, you tweak the handlebars in the opposite direction to that of
the turn.




Now you spoiled Mx's x-spurt answer....... durn.........


Trick is you have to go faster than about 20 mph for that.

Think he has?


Bertie

"ManhattanMan" wrote in news:6zmbi.559096
:

Bertie the Bunyip wrote:
"ManhattanMan" wrote in
:

Maxwell wrote:
You're ****ting us! Really!

An airplane leans in to the turns.



Well hell yes... When you want to turn an airplane, don't you just
lean over and it mysteriously goes there? Conversely, when you want
to turn your motorcycle at speed, don't you give the handlebars a
good tweek in the desired direction?

Actually, when you want to go quickly in one direction or other on a
bike, you tweak the handlebars in the opposite direction to that of
the turn.




Now you spoiled Mx's x-spurt answer....... durn.........


Sorry, BTW, I should have known you were trolling him.


Bertie

On 2007-06-10 22:41:49 -0400, "Maxwell" said:


wrote in message
ups.com...
There was a thread a while ago about how not only could one stay with
the force into the seat, but actually maintain 1 G straight into the
seat through a roll. If one is flying coordinated, keeping normal to
the airplane makes sense. Those how fly aerobatics have a different
set of criteria. For what it's worth, watching the in cockpit cameras
of some moderatedly skilled pilots, like the Blue Angels, shows them
"upright" with respect to the airplane except when G forces sling
their heads around, but they do fly coordinated most of the time.

But what do they know?


That is either untrue, or real misleading. The Blues fly with a different
purpose, keep the aircraft on trajectory. When they are flying a knife edge,
they are hardly coordinated, as with many other maneuvers.

A 1g barrel roll can be done, but the required trajectory of the aircraft is
not going to be one that is necessarily eye pleasing for ground
demonstration purposes.

Actually, when the Blues or anyone else is in knife edge, they are
indeed in coordinated flight. You hold the aircraft in knife edge with
top rudder and forward neutral stick; this control pressure combination
has to be perfectly coordinated to maintain knife edge.
You are confusing coordinated with meaning the control pressures must
be complementary which is a common mistake often made.
The first lesson we teach in aerobatics is that "coordinated" has
absolutely nothing whatsoever to do with the controls not being crossed.
Actually, any good flight instructor will teach this to a new primary
student during the first hour of dual :-)
Dudley Henriques

Bertie the Bunyip wrote:
"ManhattanMan" wrote in news:6zmbi.559096
:

Bertie the Bunyip wrote:
"ManhattanMan" wrote in
:

Maxwell wrote:
You're ****ting us! Really!

An airplane leans in to the turns.



Well hell yes... When you want to turn an airplane, don't you just
lean over and it mysteriously goes there? Conversely, when you
want to turn your motorcycle at speed, don't you give the
handlebars a good tweek in the desired direction?

Actually, when you want to go quickly in one direction or other on a
bike, you tweak the handlebars in the opposite direction to that of
the turn.




Now you spoiled Mx's x-spurt answer....... durn.........


Sorry, BTW, I should have known you were trolling him.



No loss! Any answer would have been devoid of reality anyway - can't
imagine Mx doing more than 20mph on a moped, on the back seat, eyes shut,
tears forming, never mind............

"ManhattanMan" wrote in
:

Bertie the Bunyip wrote:
"ManhattanMan" wrote in news:6zmbi.559096
:

Bertie the Bunyip wrote:
"ManhattanMan" wrote in
:

Maxwell wrote:
You're ****ting us! Really!

An airplane leans in to the turns.



Well hell yes... When you want to turn an airplane, don't you
just lean over and it mysteriously goes there? Conversely, when
you want to turn your motorcycle at speed, don't you give the
handlebars a good tweek in the desired direction?

Actually, when you want to go quickly in one direction or other on
a bike, you tweak the handlebars in the opposite direction to that
of the turn.




Now you spoiled Mx's x-spurt answer....... durn.........


Sorry, BTW, I should have known you were trolling him.



No loss! Any answer would have been devoid of reality anyway - can't
imagine Mx doing more than 20mph on a moped, on the back seat, eyes
shut, tears forming, never mind............


True, true.

Maybe in reality, he's actualy Jerry Lewis..


Bertie

Jim Logajan wrote in
:

Bertie the Bunyip wrote:
Nope. the only thing you can do at 1 G is straight and level flight.

Nope. I haven't worked out the vector math to see how many solutions
exist for other scenarios, but there are an infinite number of
solutions where the flight is straight but the aircraft is climbing
(or descending) at a constant velocity. So there is no requirment that
the flight be level.


OK, few excetions, but that's transient.


A useful experiment is to check your weight on an elevator - once it
reaches constant speed. (Obviously there are accelerations at the
beginning and end of the ride where the perception of force is
different than 1 G.)

Yeah yeah.



You can keep positive G around a barrel roll, but not 1 G

It's more complicated than that. What you say is true for circular
barrel rolls in level flight, but consider this scenario that also
yields 1 G and definitely not straight or level:

First, consider an aircraft in freefall.

Then that's not a barrel roll.



Bertie