Bill Gawthrop "F8" Accident - Sun 07/13/2014 - His Status

On Saturday, July 19, 2014 4:01:06 PM UTC-7, Frank Whiteley wrote:
On Saturday, July 19, 2014 10:37:43 AM UTC-6, wrote:

On Saturday, July 19, 2014 5:56:29 AM UTC-7, JJ Sinclair wrote:



Bill was not the first to hit the cliff at Truckee and







sadly, he won't be the last. I can remember 3 others. When a south wind comes to the cliff, it follows the terrain down, we call this "sink at the approach end of 19". When the reported wind is over 10 knots I don't fly past the cliff, simply fly my base leg parallel to and not past the cliff, turning final at 150 feet.







Speedy recovery, Bill







JJ







Wow, that's shocking. It must be time to do something about that.







One thing that would obviously help would be to remove the motivation to land short over the cliff. When I was there last there were two turnoffs that gliders used. One is actually before the airplane aim point marking and the other is just a little past it. How about creating a new turnoff area that is significantly further down field and then stop using those two close in turnoffs. I suppose it would either take some very stern policy or maybe mechanical barriers to eliminate the temptation of the more convenient access to the tie down area via the existing short turnoffs.







Sorry to be kibitzing from the peanut gallery.







Truly my best wishes are for Bill. His speedy recovery is the most important matter for now.



What happened to the third turnoff? The reason I ask is that on my first landing there in my DG-100 I announced I'd take the first, then second, and finally made the third. My first high altitude airport;^) The wheel brake wasn't very effective alas.



Frank Whiteley

By what you mean by "third turnout" it is still there, about 1,500 feet from the displaced threshold. It is really part of the second turnout to the left and you can roll into the third/straighter ahead one at higher speed if you cant make the sharp turn. And if somebody messes up there is another turnout before the runway intersection to the right 2,300' from the threshold to get off runway 20. The Soar Truckee ops folks are amongst the best around, so expect quick help if a glider ends up on the runway missing a turnout. I was always impressed with the pilot briefings and checkouts by Soar Truckee staff and proficiency of pilots flying out of there. Their yahoo newsgroup is the best place to discuss operations. Best wishes for Bill's recovery.

On Saturday, July 19, 2014 9:37:43 AM UTC-7, wrote:
On Saturday, July 19, 2014 5:56:29 AM UTC-7, JJ Sinclair wrote:

Bill was not the first to hit the cliff at Truckee and



sadly, he won't be the last. I can remember 3 others. When a south wind comes to the cliff, it follows the terrain down, we call this "sink at the approach end of 19". When the reported wind is over 10 knots I don't fly past the cliff, simply fly my base leg parallel to and not past the cliff, turning final at 150 feet.



Speedy recovery, Bill



JJ



Wow, that's shocking. It must be time to do something about that.



One thing that would obviously help would be to remove the motivation to land short over the cliff. When I was there last there were two turnoffs that gliders used. One is actually before the airplane aim point marking and the other is just a little past it. How about creating a new turnoff area that is significantly further down field and then stop using those two close in turnoffs. I suppose it would either take some very stern policy or maybe mechanical barriers to eliminate the temptation of the more convenient access to the tie down area via the existing short turnoffs.



Sorry to be kibitzing from the peanut gallery.



Truly my best wishes are for Bill. His speedy recovery is the most important matter for now.

There are plenty of places to turn off of runway 20 at Truckee, even 4000 ft down the runway. There is the normal glider launch staging pad, later the high speed glider turnoff, later the access to the parallel taxiway, later runway 29, later still access to the 29 taxiway, and finally the runup area at the end. The line staff will be happy to come tow you back without complaint.

According to the eyewitnesses to Bill's incident, even the base leg was unusually low, for reasons unknown. He was in the vicinity well above normal pattern altitude, it was not a low return to the airport.

Landing on 20, it is best to plan for a short, steep, full spoilers - full flaps final as Ramy suggests. There is almost no danger in running long, even very long, and severe consequences of coming up short.

On Sunday, July 20, 2014 8:48:30 AM UTC-7, jfitch wrote:
On Saturday, July 19, 2014 9:37:43 AM UTC-7, wrote:

On Saturday, July 19, 2014 5:56:29 AM UTC-7, JJ Sinclair wrote:



Bill was not the first to hit the cliff at Truckee and







sadly, he won't be the last. I can remember 3 others. When a south wind comes to the cliff, it follows the terrain down, we call this "sink at the approach end of 19". When the reported wind is over 10 knots I don't fly past the cliff, simply fly my base leg parallel to and not past the cliff, turning final at 150 feet.







Speedy recovery, Bill







JJ







Wow, that's shocking. It must be time to do something about that.







One thing that would obviously help would be to remove the motivation to land short over the cliff. When I was there last there were two turnoffs that gliders used. One is actually before the airplane aim point marking and the other is just a little past it. How about creating a new turnoff area that is significantly further down field and then stop using those two close in turnoffs. I suppose it would either take some very stern policy or maybe mechanical barriers to eliminate the temptation of the more convenient access to the tie down area via the existing short turnoffs.







Sorry to be kibitzing from the peanut gallery.







Truly my best wishes are for Bill. His speedy recovery is the most important matter for now.



There are plenty of places to turn off of runway 20 at Truckee, even 4000 ft down the runway. There is the normal glider launch staging pad, later the high speed glider turnoff, later the access to the parallel taxiway, later runway 29, later still access to the 29 taxiway, and finally the runup area at the end. The line staff will be happy to come tow you back without complaint.



According to the eyewitnesses to Bill's incident, even the base leg was unusually low, for reasons unknown. He was in the vicinity well above normal pattern altitude, it was not a low return to the airport.



Landing on 20, it is best to plan for a short, steep, full spoilers - full flaps final as Ramy suggests. There is almost no danger in running long, even very long, and severe consequences of coming up short.

I'm sure that you're right about the turnoff options but I'm also pretty sure that you missed my point. Anyway, no big deal. I'm sure the Truckee regulars and the Truckee operator will address the problem. If it can happen to F8, it can happen to anyone.

For what it's worth, I have about 5 flights in the 18m JS-1. These flights were conducted in wave and thermals and from my little experience in the JS-1, I was thoroughly impressed with it's handling characteristics, especially at slow speeds. It was extremely easy to fly and even in rotor, handled exceptionally well at slow speeds at various bank angles. There weren't any sneaky things about it throughout all flight regimes.
Personally I think it's totally coincidental that several accidents occurred in the JS-1C within a relatively short time period. I sat through Uys Jonker's talk at the convention and if my memory serves me correctly, he mentioned that during flight testing, the JS-1C was fully loaded with water, then water depleted from one wing, and then the aircraft intentionally spun into the heavy wing with a successful recovery. Pretty impressive. It's a really strong glider.
I'm not making any comparisons to other similar sailplanes. Just my take on the JS-1.

Thanks,
Gordon Boettger

Planning to come in high and use a steep approach with full spoilers is a fine idea, but what does the guy do that finds himself low and slow a few feet below the cliff? Isn't that where Bill found himself? If you don't fly over the cliff when the wind is up, you can't hit the cliff.
JJ

On Monday, July 21, 2014 11:16:13 AM UTC-7, JJ Sinclair wrote:
Planning to come in high and use a steep approach with full spoilers is a fine idea, but what does the guy do that finds himself low and slow a few feet below the cliff? Isn't that where Bill found himself? If you don't fly over the cliff when the wind is up, you can't hit the cliff.

JJ

A glider did once "crash" land in the lower area there of the Martis Valley/Glenshire. Amazingly he walked away. Many rocks and obstacles to avoid there not to mention the downwash.

On Monday, July 21, 2014 11:16:13 AM UTC-7, JJ Sinclair wrote:
Planning to come in high and use a steep approach with full spoilers is a fine idea, but what does the guy do that finds himself low and slow a few feet below the cliff? Isn't that where Bill found himself? If you don't fly over the cliff when the wind is up, you can't hit the cliff.

JJ

JJ, I agree that low and slow below the cliff is the worst place to be, but this should not happen if turning base high enough, unless you hit a microburst as happen to you, in this case I would not go beyond the threshold. Of course if someone found himself too low on downwind should of course turn base early and land long on the runway. I think trying to stay in front of the thershold and at the same time make the high speed turn off is the worst combination. Either turn base early ad land long, or turn high base to final behind the threshold with plenty of spoilers and eneregy, and manage your energy once you pass the cliff to make the high speed turnoff.

Ramy

On Friday, July 18, 2014 3:00:35 PM UTC-6, WaltWX wrote:
Bill Gawthrop who won the U.S. Open Nationals at Montague on July 3rd, is doing well after the crash of his beautiful JS-1c Jet at Truckee, CA. I have not talked directly with Bill, only his wife Dianne. The circumstances of the crash remain unclear, but seem to be unrelated to any mechanical issues. Wind shear or a downdraft near the approach end of Truckee runway 20 may have been a factor. Bill was returning from a 800km flight up to and beyond Crater Lake Oregon. This was his first soaring flight since the Nationals.



Dianne reported to me at 1pm today from the Reno Renown Regional Medical Center that Bill took his first walk. He has four broken vertebrae that are stable fractures and will not require surgery. His ankle braces/boots "...are very fashionable". Rehabilitation starts at a nearby center tomorrow, Saturday July 19th. Bill will be in Rehab there in Reno for awhile.



Bill, we wish you the best in your recovery. Looking forward to having you join us again in the sky!



Walt Rogers WX

I received an email from F8 yesterday, Sunday, July 20th. Bill appears to be in good spirits. He said another 6 to 8 weeks of therapy and was expecting to return to competition again next summer. Again Bill, Godspeed in your recovery and looking forward to racing with you somewhere next summer.

Best..#711.

You say "it should not happen", but it did happen (and 3 other times too). I think a change in procedures is called for. How about the Soar Truckee announcing, "Alternate approach procedures are in affect", any time the south wind is over 10 knots. All pilots briefed to fly base leg over and not beyond the cliff, turning final about 150 feet. Many of the old Truckee guys did this and made the glider turn off easily.

My micro-burst landing never came close to the cliff. I was hit with unbelievable sink just after announcing, "JJ is on a left downwind to 19 Truckee".. I immediately turned 90 degrees left and sped up to 80knots. Both vario's remained pegged full down as I watched the trees rising on my canopy. At about 100 feet the sink stopped and I cleared the trees, but I was now approaching the runway at right angles. Just then I was hit with a severe roll to the left. Full right stick and rudder stopped the left roll at about a 45 degree left attitude. It just so happened that a 45 degree left turn was just what was needed to line up with 19. The left roll subsided at about 50 feet and I relaxed the right stick and rudder I was holding and found the controls centered about 10 feet AGL, flared, touched down smoothly, and made the glider turn-off. It should be obvious that I was little more than concerned observer to the foregoing.
JJ

On Monday, July 21, 2014 3:19:05 PM UTC-7, JJ Sinclair wrote:
You say "it should not happen", but it did happen (and 3 other times too).. I think a change in procedures is called for. How about the Soar Truckee announcing, "Alternate approach procedures are in affect", any time the south wind is over 10 knots. All pilots briefed to fly base leg over and not beyond the cliff, turning final about 150 feet. Many of the old Truckee guys did this and made the glider turn off easily.



My micro-burst landing never came close to the cliff. I was hit with unbelievable sink just after announcing, "JJ is on a left downwind to 19 Truckee". I immediately turned 90 degrees left and sped up to 80knots. Both vario's remained pegged full down as I watched the trees rising on my canopy. At about 100 feet the sink stopped and I cleared the trees, but I was now approaching the runway at right angles. Just then I was hit with a severe roll to the left. Full right stick and rudder stopped the left roll at about a 45 degree left attitude. It just so happened that a 45 degree left turn was just what was needed to line up with 19. The left roll subsided at about 50 feet and I relaxed the right stick and rudder I was holding and found the controls centered about 10 feet AGL, flared, touched down smoothly, and made the glider turn-off. It should be obvious that I was little more than concerned observer to the foregoing.

JJ

JJ,

It's runway 20 now that the earth's axis has shifted .

I am confused as to how your proposed change of operations would have aided your landing experience, since the end of the runway was never in play. Of course microburst can occur anywhere in the mountains, but 10 knots of south wind is average afternoon conditions at Truckee, with 600 to 800 glider landings each season. There have been a couple over the years come up short, in most of the cases weather was not much of a factor if a factor at all. It is normally more turbulent with a West wind, due to the trees to the west, but then one has the choice of runway 29.