Bill Gawthrop "F8" Accident - Sun 07/13/2014 - His Status

On 2014-07-31 14:31:59 +0000, JJ Sinclair said:

3. Cliff at approach end to runway 20 that has claimed 5 (and counting).

I just looked at a map.

That runway is 4500 ft long! I can't see any reason why you'd go
downwind of the cliff if conditions were at all dodgy. Well, certainly
not more than a 1:1 glide from it. There is absolutely zero chance of
damage from overshooting and landing long.

I appreciate that the gliding facilities are at the near end of the
runway, so you'd like to land reasonably short, but even if you aim to
touch down somewhere on the 1000 ft markers like the big boys do, a
glider should be able to take the (apparent) high speed exit 100m later
with ease.

On 7/31/2014 6:05 PM, Bruce Hoult wrote:
On 2014-07-31 14:31:59 +0000, JJ Sinclair said:

3. Cliff at approach end to runway 20 that has claimed 5 (and counting).

I just looked at a map.

That runway is 4500 ft long! I can't see any reason why you'd go downwind of
the cliff if conditions were at all dodgy. Well, certainly not more than a 1:1
glide from it. There is absolutely zero chance of damage from overshooting and
landing long.

I appreciate that the gliding facilities are at the near end of the runway, so
you'd like to land reasonably short, but even if you aim to touch down
somewhere on the 1000 ft markers like the big boys do, a glider should be able
to take the (apparent) high speed exit 100m later with ease.


Just happened to see this before signing off...

Never having been to Truckee, having no first-hand knowledge of any of its
crunches, and having many flights from Boulder, CO, where if you arrive short
from the east on west wind days (which tend to be gnarly due to upwind big
mountains and the dropoff at the end of the grass-covered alluvial fan atop
which the airport sits), and being an observer of human nature (think
"convenience", "doing things by rote", etc.) never rule out human nature as
the cause for aiming for the threshold of a runway.

I recall a "What were you THINKing?!?" conversation with a (rather
white-faced) glider guy who'd nearly put his ship in the lake on an approach
to the other end of the alluvial fan airport on a benign day while practicing
short-field, spot landings. Apparently, until he had the experience which
scared him, it'd never occurred to him that maybe he should've displaced his
aimimg point down the runway a bit from the actual threshold. (He did draw the
right conclusion on his own, I'm happy to report; I asked him!)

That noted, your mental reaction and mine tend to be similar...

Bob W.

P.S. Having experienced 3 microburst events (3 different locations) - each of
which led to "Right now!" landing patterns, I can honestly report that on 2 of
the 3 I merely targeted "somewhere along the runway" as my aiming point; the
remaining one (not so bad as the others) I targeted midfield. No damage on
any, but one Happy Camper after each. Patterns for the two worst ones began
above 3k' agl, and the (timed) less-bad one had me on the ground and stopped
within 60 seconds of encountering the m-burst...w/o ever using any of my
large-deflection landing flaps until on VERY short final. Paraphrasing Abe
Lincoln, were it not for the "honor of things" I'd just as soon forgone each
of the experiences...

On Thursday, July 31, 2014 5:18:01 PM UTC-4, JJ Sinclair wrote:
As I watched the whirling blade of my table saw, I had a thought; "I avoid loosing a finger in that spinning blade the same way I avoid the increased hazards of flying at Truckee"

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eiYoBbEZwlk#t=92

When I was contemplating the purchase of a table saw over a period of about a year or so, I spoke to four or five professional carpenters about the digits that had they lost to table saws. They all know the proper way to use the tool and they have years of practice. They all know that a properly maintained and adjusted tool is still inherently dangerous. In less than a minute of discussion, each one of them honestly attributed their accidents to 'operator error'. I ended up buying a SawStop like in the video.

A cliff at the end of a particular runway does not induce pilot error and there is no SawStop silver bullet for gliding, but there are factors under my control that will reduce my chances of making an error on a particular flight. For example, using good hydration and relief systems and planning to keep my flight duration under my personal limit.

It is striking to me a relative newbie, that there is so little discussion of the causes of pilot error wrt particular accidents. I agree that we should be respectful and not criticize an injured pilot. But, it would be useful to hear people reflect on mistakes that they made (and survived) 'back in the day'. Lots of you guys have had accidents and close calls. To what do you attribute your 'pilot error'? Did you change anything in your routine?

Do I really have to make all of the same mistakes on my own time?

On Thursday, July 31, 2014 5:05:55 PM UTC-7, Bruce Hoult wrote:
On 2014-07-31 14:31:59 +0000, JJ Sinclair said:



3. Cliff at approach end to runway 20 that has claimed 5 (and counting)..



I just looked at a map.



That runway is 4500 ft long! I can't see any reason why you'd go

downwind of the cliff if conditions were at all dodgy. Well, certainly

not more than a 1:1 glide from it. There is absolutely zero chance of

damage from overshooting and landing long.



I appreciate that the gliding facilities are at the near end of the

runway, so you'd like to land reasonably short, but even if you aim to

touch down somewhere on the 1000 ft markers like the big boys do, a

glider should be able to take the (apparent) high speed exit 100m later

with ease.

I continue the discussion not to change JJ's mind (that is already made up) but as an alternative viewpoint for others unfamiliar with the area.

Bruce you are absolutely correct that the runway is very long: to my knowledge no glider has ever run long (I've never seen one even pass the runway intersection, leaving more than a thousand feet in hand). You can plan your final to be about a 2:1 glide to the end, touch at about the VASI lights using full spoilers, and still easily make the turnoff. The other runway (29) is 7000 ft if you feel the 4650 ft of 20 is too crowded.

In my opinion, the characterization of the hazards at Truckee as a threat "like spinning blades", and to "avoid the threat when possible" is a grossly exaggerated metaphor. The hazard at the threshold of 20 is 100% mitigable - to zero risk - by a high steep approach. If you are unable or unwilling to plan a high steep approach perhaps you shouldn't be landing on the end of 20. Tens of thousands of operations have been able to accomplish it. Similarly returning to Truckee in the afternoon is 100% mitigable, reducing the risk to a short air retrieve from one of the many nearby airports. Again one must have the discipline to do it. Microburst is never 100% mitigable, anywhere, nevertheless at Truckee thunderstorms are usually fairly limited in size, not terribly frequent, well forecast, and there are usually many escapes to wait it out or land elsewhere.

Other sites in the area have hazards as well. While I agree with JJ's point that one should not ignore them, if you are looking for hazard free flying the western high desert is not the place to fly.

I would like to know how many tows Minden and Air Sailing do between October and April. Even Williams is closed two days a week, so really only a 8.5 month operation.

On Thu, 31 Jul 2014 18:45:52 -0700, son_of_flubber wrote:

Do I really have to make all of the same mistakes on my own time?

That seems to be the only way that significant numbers of people ever
learn anything outside of school (and maybe in school too). Myself not
necessarily excluded from this generalisation.


--
martin@ | Martin Gregorie
gregorie. | Essex, UK
org |

On 2014-08-01 07:10:51 +0000, jfitch said:

In my opinion, the characterization of the hazards at Truckee as a
threat "like spinning blades", and to "avoid the threat when possible"
is a grossly exaggerated metaphor. The hazard at the threshold of 20 is
100% mitigable - to zero risk - by a high steep approach. If you are
unable or unwilling to plan a high steep approach perhaps you shouldn't
be landing on the end of 20.

I think cliffs of various sizes are common at the end of many airports,
and certainly gliding fields.

Every summer we go for a gliding camp at the farm strip just above
center in this photo (with cars (and a gazebo) at the left of the near
end, and glider trailers near the middle. It's near Taihape in New
Zealand.

http://fbcdn-sphotos-f-a.akamaihd.ne..._5172763_n.jpg


There's quite a cliff at the near end, and a smaller one at the far end.

There's quite a slope away from the camera (which is looking west) so
normally we takeoff away from the camera and land towards it, but in
winds over about 15 knots we operate conventionally.

For normal landings we encourage people to use an aiming point
somewhere around the far end of the glider trailers (and there is a
windsock and a petrol trailer there) or at most the tree on the other
side of the strip.

In the event of a PTT early after takeoff, the done thing is to carry
on over the river and land in fields a km past it (right next to where
we actually put up our tents, as it happens).

I've got an iPhone 4 video showing operations from the side here
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_xrsNm9kJ5s


The center of the strip is at
http://maps.google.com/maps?t=h&z=17&q=-39.8114,175.99


Nearer to home, one of our students made a video including approaches
to both ends of a farm topdressing strip that is about 15 km from our
home field. It also has slope and (smallish, but deadly) drop-offs at
both ends.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MJapUCeDeOI

The actual aproaches start at 2:37 and 4:39 if you don't want to sit
through it all. Just after the first approach (from 2:58 to 3:11)
shows what you get on downwind if you choose to do a left hand circuit
for the 2nd approach (or in the other direction for a right hand
circuit for the first approach).

We take students starting to spread their wings but not ready for full
on cross country yet to this strip and give a log book endorsement that
they are to stay within final glide of either the home field or this
one. We'd certainly expect them to be able to handle any of the four
approaches (2x landing direction, 2x circuit direction) to it,
depending on conditions.

if you can't, you're not ready for proper cross country, with the
strong possibility of landing somewhere you've never seen before.

This strip is close enough to home that there is no tug repositioning
cost for an aerotow retrieve, if there is other towing going on at home
-- just the cost of a normal 2000 ft tow.

This strip is at http://maps.google.com/maps?t=h&z=17....8147,175.1465

Maybe I missed it...any update on Bill?

On Thursday, July 31, 2014 8:45:52 PM UTC-5, son_of_flubber wrote:

Do I really have to make all of the same mistakes on my own time?

No - it's a lot more entertaining if you come up with your own ;^)

Tony, I was wondering too.
But staying on topic is impossible.
Jim


On Friday, August 1, 2014 6:42:41 AM UTC-7, Tony wrote:
Maybe I missed it...any update on Bill?

On Friday, August 1, 2014 6:42:41 AM UTC-7, Tony wrote:
Maybe I missed it...any update on Bill?

Bill is out of the hospital in a rehab facility, walking, doing very well!