A aviation & planes forum. AviationBanter

If this is your first visit, be sure to check out the FAQ by clicking the link above. You may have to register before you can post: click the register link above to proceed. To start viewing messages, select the forum that you want to visit from the selection below.

Go Back   Home » AviationBanter forum » rec.aviation newsgroups » Piloting
Site Map Home Register Authors List Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read Web Partners

Outside reference in IMC



 
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #31  
Old May 21st 08, 02:48 AM posted to rec.aviation.piloting
[email protected]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 838
Default Outside reference in IMC

On May 20, 7:30*pm, "Bob F." wrote:
Extra credit points! *The statement below is incomplete (hint: qualification
is missing). *There are lots of places in US airspace where you could be IMC
and NOT fly under IFR rules, and no flight plan...where are they?


Where Mx has never departed with him flying a real plane.......
Unless secretarial chairs have the ability to leave the (G)round.
  #33  
Old May 21st 08, 03:58 AM posted to rec.aviation.piloting
Andrew Sarangan
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 382
Default Outside reference in IMC

On May 20, 9:11 pm, Marty Shapiro
wrote:
"Bob F." wrote m:

Extra credit points! The statement below is incomplete (hint:
qualification is missing). There are lots of places in US airspace
where you could be IMC and NOT fly under IFR rules, and no flight
plan...where are they?


Glass G airspace. Lot's of it out west.


Even in class G you must still follow all the IFR rules, except you
don't need a ATC clearance.



  #34  
Old May 21st 08, 04:36 AM posted to rec.aviation.piloting
[email protected]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 838
Default Outside reference in IMC

On May 20, 9:45*pm, romeomike wrote:

IMO, given that an overcast may obscure the horizon and not be "level"
or at the same altitude as you progress, I would think you would be
justified in logging it. I for one would want to be scanning instruments
to make sure I'm maintaining altitude, course, level wings, etc. It
wouldn't be quite as intense as if I were in the clouds, but justifiable
to the feds if they examined my log book. I'm sure there are scenarios
that would generate debate but maybe not this one?


While I personally don't log it in my logbook as IMC time, I think
like you, it's IMC since like you said, sloping clouds give an
illusion of a false horizon. In my training, my instructor said no,
it's not, and we were between layers!

The second reason I personally think it's IMC, is that you have no
ground reference to fly by and have to use instruments to navigate.
  #36  
Old May 21st 08, 05:39 AM posted to rec.aviation.piloting
[email protected]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 838
Default Outside reference in IMC

On May 20, 11:21*pm, romeomike wrote:

I'm not an ultimate authority on this, but I don't get your instructor's
point of view. If someone else can explain how in this scenario one can
safely fly without reference to instruments, you and I are sure to learn
something.


Yep, I didn't get it either but in the full scheme of things, I wasn't
complaining, as at least I had an instructor who wasn't afraid of
touching a cloud. He went on to the regionals, and my second
instructor wouldn't fly in ceilings less then 1000.and my airport
minimums was 1/2 that.

On the other hand, the second instructor had much better cockpit
management so I did have the best of both worlds.

  #38  
Old May 21st 08, 08:43 AM posted to rec.aviation.piloting
Marty Shapiro
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 287
Default Outside reference in IMC

Andrew Sarangan wrote in
:

On May 20, 9:11 pm, Marty Shapiro
wrote:
"Bob F." wrote
m:

Extra credit points! The statement below is incomplete (hint:
qualification is missing). There are lots of places in US airspace
where you could be IMC and NOT fly under IFR rules, and no flight
plan...where are they?


Glass G airspace. Lot's of it out west.


Even in class G you must still follow all the IFR rules, except you
don't need a ATC clearance.





All of them? Any FAR which states "when operating is controlled air space"
doesn't apply. That still leaves a few, but most of them are gone.

Communication with ATC? Not required in G.

Flight plan? Not required in G. No need to file or activate.

Altitude? Well, yes. But with no ATC communication requirement, you can
change it anytime you want. Unless I missed something in a quick scan,
91.179 doesn't address altitudes below 2,000' AGL and over a flat area,
such as a desert, you only need to be 1,000' AGL per 91.177. So, the rules
on altidude based on direction of flight does not necessarily apply. If
they did in G which only goes to 1,200' AGL, all IFR traffic there would be
one way.

Fuel on board? Well, I guess if you got ramped checked, you should have
statutory IFR reserves on departure, but since you're not required to have
a flight plan in G, what would be used to determine if you met IFR
reserves?

Malfunctions? No report required in G.

Instrument currency? Absolutely must have. No exceptions for class G!

SFAR 97 only applies to published routes, which are at least class E.

So, although it would be very stupid to do so, you can fly IFR in class G
airspace and not follow most of the IFR rules.

--
Marty Shapiro
Silicon Rallye Inc.

(remove SPAMNOT to email me)
  #39  
Old May 21st 08, 09:00 AM posted to rec.aviation.piloting
Marty Shapiro
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 287
Default Outside reference in IMC

romeomike wrote in news:1kkcg5-
:

wrote:


In my training, my instructor said no,
it's not, and we were between layers!



I'm not an ultimate authority on this, but I don't get your instructor's
point of view. If someone else can explain how in this scenario one can
safely fly without reference to instruments, you and I are sure to learn
something.


VFR over the top (not to be confused with the IFR clearance of VFR on top).

For example, fly from SJC or RHV to TVL. The central valley can be covered
in Tule fog but it could be CAVU above 1,000' AGL. You also have CAVU at
SJC, RHV, and TVL. Climb VFR and then cross the Tule fog.

Now put a ceiling of say FL 250 above you. Again SJC, RHV, and TVL are
CAVU. Clime to 9,500', and cross between the layers VFR.

In either cases, you can see the Sierra Nevada mountains or the coastal
hills on return while you are over the lower level ceiling. Even with 25
mile visibility, you'll have enough time to establish a heading prior to
crossing the central valley and just hold it until you see the hills.

Maybe one of our Canadian friends can tell us if Canada now allows VFR over
the top for private pilots. I know when I was a student it was pointed out
that Canada did not allow this while the U.S. did.

--
Marty Shapiro
Silicon Rallye Inc.

(remove SPAMNOT to email me)
  #40  
Old May 21st 08, 10:32 AM posted to rec.aviation.piloting
B A R R Y
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 517
Default Outside reference in IMC

On Tue, 20 May 2008 20:30:20 -0400, "Bob F."
wrote:

Extra credit points! The statement below is incomplete (hint: qualification
is missing). There are lots of places in US airspace where you could be IMC
and NOT fly under IFR rules, and no flight plan...where are they?


Class G space.
 




Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Sandblasting reference? Michael Horowitz Home Built 7 November 20th 07 08:01 AM
FAR Reference - Self Fueling Ben Smith Owning 8 April 8th 04 11:07 PM
Engineering reference: Richard Lamb Home Built 1 March 14th 04 04:18 PM
For General Reference El Roto Home Built 0 February 23rd 04 05:00 AM
looking for modern F-4 reference Rob van Riel Military Aviation 1 November 13th 03 09:39 PM


All times are GMT +1. The time now is 10:53 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.6.4
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Copyright ©2004-2024 AviationBanter.
The comments are property of their posters.