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  #41  
Old July 20th 08, 06:14 AM posted to rec.aviation.piloting
Bertie the Bunyip[_24_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 2,969
Default quick question -

george wrote in
:

On Jul 20, 8:29 am, Bertie the Bunyip wrote:
george wrote
innews:5320ec8d-3a86-41a6-a201-


om:



On Jul 20, 1:31 am, Bertie the Bunyip wrote:
Cubdriver usenet AT danford DOT net wrote
:


On Wed, 16 Jul 2008 17:01:17 -0700 (PDT), george
wrote:


It was a J2.
PA18s have electrics AFAIK they have electric start.
Sheer luxury


The J-2s, J-3s, and PA-11s were all built without electrics. The
PA-18 was built in a variety of styles, with engines ranging
from 95 hp to 150 hp. The early models had no flaps and a single
wing tank. Oddly enough, the best book on Piper aircraft (by
Roger Peperell) doesn't address the subject of electrics. Peter
Bowers's book says that as first offered, the "standard" version
of the PA-18 had no electrics, while the "deluxe" had a starter,
battery, etc. Flaps were added in the PA-18-125.


The early Super Cubs were less than $3000. I am just getting
acquainted with a Legend Cub, which is essentially a PA-11 with
electrics added, two wing tanks, no flaps, a cockpit three
inches wider than the original, and doors/windows on both sides.
Fully kitted out, it goes for about $130,000.


About half that increase is simply the devaluation of the dollar
since 1945. The other Cub I fly is a 1946 J-3 that went out the
door for $2300 in August that year. We are required to carry
$60,000 hull insurance in order to rent it. Its actual resale
value is probably something in the neighborhood of $40,000.


Even though the PA 18 is seen as a cub, it's really quite a
different airplane. The Cubs through the 11 were really parasol
aircraft with an encolsure added, wheras the Supercub was a true
cabin aricraft. ..


Yup. That was my bad I just posted without looking up the details
in the log book.


Oh i wasn't correcting, just pointing out some cub trivia.

However you want to see my handsome youthful (1966) features take a
look at
http://www.koekejunction.hnpl.net/Pages/Flying.htm

Rallye.
Shudder!
?I flew one of those that was lucky to do 300 fpm.


The Cub yes.
It was actually quite dangerous to fill the seats
However the MS885 was a pretty good short field machine and I used to
drop in on the farmers in the family.


I meant the Rallye, actually. Might have been a bad one though. It was
one of the 100hp ones which the one you were in looks to be the same.
It went up at a good angle but at a low rate. I think even a J3 would
outclimb it. I flew a J-2 two up once and it needed a calender for rate
of climb!


Bertie

  #42  
Old July 20th 08, 07:06 AM posted to rec.aviation.piloting
Marty Shapiro
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 287
Default quick question -

Bertie the Bunyip wrote in
:

george wrote in
:

On Jul 20, 1:31 am, Bertie the Bunyip wrote:
Cubdriver usenet AT danford DOT net wrote
:



On Wed, 16 Jul 2008 17:01:17 -0700 (PDT), george
wrote:

It was a J2.
PA18s have electrics AFAIK they have electric start.
Sheer luxury

The J-2s, J-3s, and PA-11s were all built without electrics. The
PA-18 was built in a variety of styles, with engines ranging from
95 hp to 150 hp. The early models had no flaps and a single wing
tank. Oddly enough, the best book on Piper aircraft (by Roger
Peperell) doesn't address the subject of electrics. Peter Bowers's
book says that as first offered, the "standard" version of the
PA-18 had no electrics, while the "deluxe" had a starter, battery,
etc. Flaps were added in the PA-18-125.

The early Super Cubs were less than $3000. I am just getting
acquainted with a Legend Cub, which is essentially a PA-11 with
electrics added, two wing tanks, no flaps, a cockpit three inches
wider than the original, and doors/windows on both sides. Fully
kitted out, it goes for about $130,000.

About half that increase is simply the devaluation of the dollar
since 1945. The other Cub I fly is a 1946 J-3 that went out the
door for $2300 in August that year. We are required to carry
$60,000 hull insurance in order to rent it. Its actual resale value
is probably something in the neighborhood of $40,000.

Even though the PA 18 is seen as a cub, it's really quite a different
airplane. The Cubs through the 11 were really parasol aircraft with
an encolsure added, wheras the Supercub was a true cabin aricraft. ..


Yup. That was my bad I just posted without looking up the details in
the log book.


Oh i wasn't correcting, just pointing out some cub trivia.

However you want to see my handsome youthful (1966) features take a
look at
http://www.koekejunction.hnpl.net/Pages/Flying.htm



Rallye.
Shudder!
?I flew one of those that was lucky to do 300 fpm.



You didn't fly the right Rallye!

The Rallye product line light air frames ran the gamut from a 2 seat 100 HP
Rolls-Royce engine through a 4 seat 180 HP Lycoming O-360. The more common
2 seaters, and the Koliber clone, have 150 HP engines. The 4 seat heavy
air frames, which included 2 hard points on each wing, were either the 220
HP Franklin engine or the 235 HP Lycoming 0-545. With either of the heavy
air frames, you get a pretty good climb rate.

--
Marty Shapiro
Silicon Rallye Inc.

(remove SPAMNOT to email me)
  #43  
Old July 20th 08, 07:12 AM posted to rec.aviation.piloting
Marty Shapiro
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 287
Default quick question -

Bertie the Bunyip wrote in
:

george wrote in
:

On Jul 20, 8:29 am, Bertie the Bunyip wrote:
george wrote
innews:5320ec8d-3a86-41a6-a201-


om:



On Jul 20, 1:31 am, Bertie the Bunyip wrote:
Cubdriver usenet AT danford DOT net wrote
:

On Wed, 16 Jul 2008 17:01:17 -0700 (PDT), george
wrote:

It was a J2.
PA18s have electrics AFAIK they have electric start.
Sheer luxury

The J-2s, J-3s, and PA-11s were all built without electrics. The
PA-18 was built in a variety of styles, with engines ranging
from 95 hp to 150 hp. The early models had no flaps and a single
wing tank. Oddly enough, the best book on Piper aircraft (by
Roger Peperell) doesn't address the subject of electrics. Peter
Bowers's book says that as first offered, the "standard" version
of the PA-18 had no electrics, while the "deluxe" had a starter,
battery, etc. Flaps were added in the PA-18-125.

The early Super Cubs were less than $3000. I am just getting
acquainted with a Legend Cub, which is essentially a PA-11 with
electrics added, two wing tanks, no flaps, a cockpit three
inches wider than the original, and doors/windows on both sides.
Fully kitted out, it goes for about $130,000.

About half that increase is simply the devaluation of the dollar
since 1945. The other Cub I fly is a 1946 J-3 that went out the
door for $2300 in August that year. We are required to carry
$60,000 hull insurance in order to rent it. Its actual resale
value is probably something in the neighborhood of $40,000.

Even though the PA 18 is seen as a cub, it's really quite a
different airplane. The Cubs through the 11 were really parasol
aircraft with an encolsure added, wheras the Supercub was a true
cabin aricraft. ..

Yup. That was my bad I just posted without looking up the details
in the log book.

Oh i wasn't correcting, just pointing out some cub trivia.

However you want to see my handsome youthful (1966) features take a
look at
http://www.koekejunction.hnpl.net/Pages/Flying.htm

Rallye.
Shudder!
?I flew one of those that was lucky to do 300 fpm.


The Cub yes.
It was actually quite dangerous to fill the seats
However the MS885 was a pretty good short field machine and I used to
drop in on the farmers in the family.


I meant the Rallye, actually. Might have been a bad one though. It was
one of the 100hp ones which the one you were in looks to be the same.
It went up at a good angle but at a low rate. I think even a J3 would
outclimb it. I flew a J-2 two up once and it needed a calender for rate
of climb!


Bertie



The deck angle for a Rallye in a Vx climb can be frightening when compared
to Cessna's and Pipers. At Vy, you have a noticeably steeper deck angle
than Warriors, Archers, C172s, C182s, and Arrows. When I'm carrying
passengers who are not pilots and have never been in a Rallye, I pitch for
a cruise climb on take off. It still beats Vy on most just about all the
single engine Pipers and Cessnas.

--
Marty Shapiro
Silicon Rallye Inc.

(remove SPAMNOT to email me)
  #44  
Old July 20th 08, 07:18 AM posted to rec.aviation.piloting
Bertie the Bunyip[_24_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 2,969
Default quick question -

Marty Shapiro wrote in
:

Bertie the Bunyip wrote in
:

george wrote in
news:550d2736-60f8-4b70-b33a-50cf54871587

@f40g2000pri.googlegroups.com
:

On Jul 20, 8:29 am, Bertie the Bunyip wrote:
george wrote
innews:5320ec8d-3a86-41a6-a201-


om:



On Jul 20, 1:31 am, Bertie the Bunyip wrote:
Cubdriver usenet AT danford DOT net wrote
:

On Wed, 16 Jul 2008 17:01:17 -0700 (PDT), george
wrote:

It was a J2.
PA18s have electrics AFAIK they have electric start.
Sheer luxury

The J-2s, J-3s, and PA-11s were all built without electrics.
The PA-18 was built in a variety of styles, with engines
ranging from 95 hp to 150 hp. The early models had no flaps
and a single wing tank. Oddly enough, the best book on Piper
aircraft (by Roger Peperell) doesn't address the subject of
electrics. Peter Bowers's book says that as first offered, the
"standard" version of the PA-18 had no electrics, while the
"deluxe" had a starter, battery, etc. Flaps were added in the
PA-18-125.

The early Super Cubs were less than $3000. I am just getting
acquainted with a Legend Cub, which is essentially a PA-11
with electrics added, two wing tanks, no flaps, a cockpit
three inches wider than the original, and doors/windows on
both sides. Fully kitted out, it goes for about $130,000.

About half that increase is simply the devaluation of the
dollar since 1945. The other Cub I fly is a 1946 J-3 that went
out the door for $2300 in August that year. We are required to
carry $60,000 hull insurance in order to rent it. Its actual
resale value is probably something in the neighborhood of
$40,000.

Even though the PA 18 is seen as a cub, it's really quite a
different airplane. The Cubs through the 11 were really parasol
aircraft with an encolsure added, wheras the Supercub was a true
cabin aricraft. ..

Yup. That was my bad I just posted without looking up the details
in the log book.

Oh i wasn't correcting, just pointing out some cub trivia.

However you want to see my handsome youthful (1966) features take
a look at
http://www.koekejunction.hnpl.net/Pages/Flying.htm

Rallye.
Shudder!
?I flew one of those that was lucky to do 300 fpm.

The Cub yes.
It was actually quite dangerous to fill the seats
However the MS885 was a pretty good short field machine and I used
to drop in on the farmers in the family.


I meant the Rallye, actually. Might have been a bad one though. It
was one of the 100hp ones which the one you were in looks to be the
same. It went up at a good angle but at a low rate. I think even a J3
would outclimb it. I flew a J-2 two up once and it needed a calender
for rate of climb!


Bertie



The deck angle for a Rallye in a Vx climb can be frightening when
compared to Cessna's and Pipers. At Vy, you have a noticeably steeper
deck angle than Warriors, Archers, C172s, C182s, and Arrows. When I'm
carrying passengers who are not pilots and have never been in a
Rallye, I pitch for a cruise climb on take off. It still beats Vy on
most just about all the single engine Pipers and Cessnas.


Yeahm but you have a big engine one, don;t you?

Been years since I've flown one, but the slats should alter the chord
line and give a high deck angle with no flaps out.


Bertie
  #45  
Old July 20th 08, 07:23 AM posted to rec.aviation.piloting
Bertie the Bunyip[_24_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 2,969
Default quick question -

Marty Shapiro wrote in
:

Bertie the Bunyip wrote in
:

george wrote in
news:5320ec8d-3a86-41a6-a201-


:

On Jul 20, 1:31 am, Bertie the Bunyip wrote:
Cubdriver usenet AT danford DOT net wrote
:



On Wed, 16 Jul 2008 17:01:17 -0700 (PDT), george
wrote:

It was a J2.
PA18s have electrics AFAIK they have electric start.
Sheer luxury

The J-2s, J-3s, and PA-11s were all built without electrics. The
PA-18 was built in a variety of styles, with engines ranging from
95 hp to 150 hp. The early models had no flaps and a single wing
tank. Oddly enough, the best book on Piper aircraft (by Roger
Peperell) doesn't address the subject of electrics. Peter
Bowers's book says that as first offered, the "standard" version
of the PA-18 had no electrics, while the "deluxe" had a starter,
battery, etc. Flaps were added in the PA-18-125.

The early Super Cubs were less than $3000. I am just getting
acquainted with a Legend Cub, which is essentially a PA-11 with
electrics added, two wing tanks, no flaps, a cockpit three inches
wider than the original, and doors/windows on both sides. Fully
kitted out, it goes for about $130,000.

About half that increase is simply the devaluation of the dollar
since 1945. The other Cub I fly is a 1946 J-3 that went out the
door for $2300 in August that year. We are required to carry
$60,000 hull insurance in order to rent it. Its actual resale
value is probably something in the neighborhood of $40,000.

Even though the PA 18 is seen as a cub, it's really quite a
different airplane. The Cubs through the 11 were really parasol
aircraft with an encolsure added, wheras the Supercub was a true
cabin aricraft. ..

Yup. That was my bad I just posted without looking up the details in
the log book.


Oh i wasn't correcting, just pointing out some cub trivia.

However you want to see my handsome youthful (1966) features take a
look at
http://www.koekejunction.hnpl.net/Pages/Flying.htm


Rallye.
Shudder!
?I flew one of those that was lucky to do 300 fpm.



You didn't fly the right Rallye!

The Rallye product line light air frames ran the gamut from a 2 seat
100 HP Rolls-Royce engine through a 4 seat 180 HP Lycoming O-360. The
more common 2 seaters, and the Koliber clone, have 150 HP engines.
The 4 seat heavy air frames, which included 2 hard points on each
wing, were either the 220 HP Franklin engine or the 235 HP Lycoming
0-545. With either of the heavy air frames, you get a pretty good
climb rate.


Oh yeah. Obviously! The little engine ones went OK and I even flew an ST
and did some aerobatics in it, which it did farily well compared to
similar airplanes. In Europe they're nicknamed the "tin parachute" for
their ability to settle to earth with the stick fully back at a minimal
rate. The idea being that someone who gets stuck in IMC without the
ability to fly out of it can close the power, pull the stick back and
probably have a better chance than thye would if they continued to push
onwards. The engine out scenario was supposed to be the same. I wouldn't
like to try it, however!

Bertie
  #46  
Old July 20th 08, 07:40 AM posted to rec.aviation.piloting
Marty Shapiro
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 287
Default quick question -

Bertie the Bunyip wrote in
:

Oh yeah. Obviously! The little engine ones went OK and I even flew an ST
and did some aerobatics in it, which it did farily well compared to
similar airplanes. In Europe they're nicknamed the "tin parachute" for
their ability to settle to earth with the stick fully back at a minimal
rate. The idea being that someone who gets stuck in IMC without the
ability to fly out of it can close the power, pull the stick back and
probably have a better chance than thye would if they continued to push
onwards. The engine out scenario was supposed to be the same. I wouldn't
like to try it, however!

Bertie


I've played with this one year when when I did the return to service flight
after an annual. Power off, stick full back, full flaps, you are
descending at about 1,050 fpm with an indicated air speed of about 35 MPH
(it bounces between 30 and 40) and the nose bobbling on the horizon.

Note that the descent rate in this mode is the same as that of a Cirrus
with the chute popped. Now if SOCATA had beefed up the seats to handle the
impact, they would have had a true tin parachute.

--
Marty Shapiro
Silicon Rallye Inc.

(remove SPAMNOT to email me)
  #47  
Old July 20th 08, 08:02 AM posted to rec.aviation.piloting
Marty Shapiro
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 287
Default quick question -

Bertie the Bunyip wrote in
:

Yeahm but you have a big engine one, don;t you?

Been years since I've flown one, but the slats should alter the chord
line and give a high deck angle with no flaps out.


Yes, I have the 235. I've never flown the smaller ones.

The deck angle is even higher with the flaps out. When I want to pop it
off the runway, I use 1/2 flaps (at this setting, they are pretty much only
about 15 degrees down, but at maximum extension)and pitch for Vx. Trim for
Vx and then simply raising the flaps will lower the nose slightly and put
me right on Vy.

The slats, as you know, are automatic, and will pretty much stay out in a
climb until you lower the nose to about 85-90 MPH indicated. The slats are
in for a cruise climb (106 MPH).

--
Marty Shapiro
Silicon Rallye Inc.

(remove SPAMNOT to email me)
  #48  
Old July 20th 08, 10:20 AM posted to rec.aviation.piloting
Bertie the Bunyip[_24_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 2,969
Default quick question -

Marty Shapiro wrote in
:

Bertie the Bunyip wrote in
:

Oh yeah. Obviously! The little engine ones went OK and I even flew an
ST and did some aerobatics in it, which it did farily well compared
to similar airplanes. In Europe they're nicknamed the "tin parachute"
for their ability to settle to earth with the stick fully back at a
minimal rate. The idea being that someone who gets stuck in IMC
without the ability to fly out of it can close the power, pull the
stick back and probably have a better chance than thye would if they
continued to push onwards. The engine out scenario was supposed to be
the same. I wouldn't like to try it, however!

Bertie


I've played with this one year when when I did the return to service
flight after an annual. Power off, stick full back, full flaps, you
are descending at about 1,050 fpm with an indicated air speed of about
35 MPH (it bounces between 30 and 40) and the nose bobbling on the
horizon.

Note that the descent rate in this mode is the same as that of a
Cirrus with the chute popped. Now if SOCATA had beefed up the seats
to handle the impact, they would have had a true tin parachute.




hmm, that sounds survivable allright. and the lighter airplanes would
probably be even just a bit less. Doesn't sound like something your
chiropractor woudl approve of, but it would be better than spearing in
out of a spiral dive, which is the more traditional way of getting out
of situation A.


Bertie

  #49  
Old July 20th 08, 10:22 AM posted to rec.aviation.piloting
Bertie the Bunyip[_24_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 2,969
Default quick question -

Marty Shapiro wrote in
:

Bertie the Bunyip wrote in
:

Yeahm but you have a big engine one, don;t you?

Been years since I've flown one, but the slats should alter the chord
line and give a high deck angle with no flaps out.


Yes, I have the 235. I've never flown the smaller ones.

The deck angle is even higher with the flaps out. When I want to pop
it off the runway, I use 1/2 flaps (at this setting, they are pretty
much only about 15 degrees down, but at maximum extension)and pitch
for Vx. Trim for Vx and then simply raising the flaps will lower the
nose slightly and put me right on Vy.

The slats, as you know, are automatic, and will pretty much stay out
in a climb until you lower the nose to about 85-90 MPH indicated. The
slats are in for a cruise climb (106 MPH).



hmmm, strange that the angle would be higher with flaps out, The mean chord
line should change and require a lower deck angle for a given airspeed.


Bertie

  #50  
Old July 20th 08, 09:44 PM posted to rec.aviation.piloting
george
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 803
Default quick question -

On Jul 20, 6:23 pm, Bertie the Bunyip wrote:

Oh yeah. Obviously! The little engine ones went OK and I even flew an ST
and did some aerobatics in it, which it did farily well compared to
similar airplanes. In Europe they're nicknamed the "tin parachute" for
their ability to settle to earth with the stick fully back at a minimal
rate. The idea being that someone who gets stuck in IMC without the
ability to fly out of it can close the power, pull the stick back and
probably have a better chance than thye would if they continued to push
onwards. The engine out scenario was supposed to be the same. I wouldn't
like to try it, however!


Yup.
I heard the same story about some-one in France lost above cloud who
used that technique.
As I soloed in the Rallye featured in the photo I have a lot of regard
for that particular aeroplane.
As to stability there -was- a private owner who would drop the control
lock over the stick and concentrate on his navigation.

Marty
What are the new Socatta (I think they're called) like to fly?
and do they have lockable slots ?
Used to be quite distracting on a crosscountry for the passengers with
them banging away
..


 




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