quick question -

Bertie the Bunyip wrote in
:

Marty Shapiro wrote in
:

Bertie the Bunyip wrote in
:

Yeahm but you have a big engine one, don;t you?

Been years since I've flown one, but the slats should alter the
chord line and give a high deck angle with no flaps out.

Yes, I have the 235. I've never flown the smaller ones.

The deck angle is even higher with the flaps out. When I want to pop
it off the runway, I use 1/2 flaps (at this setting, they are pretty
much only about 15 degrees down, but at maximum extension)and pitch
for Vx. Trim for Vx and then simply raising the flaps will lower the
nose slightly and put me right on Vy.

The slats, as you know, are automatic, and will pretty much stay out
in a climb until you lower the nose to about 85-90 MPH indicated. The
slats are in for a cruise climb (106 MPH).


hmmm, strange that the angle would be higher with flaps out, The mean
chord line should change and require a lower deck angle for a given
airspeed.


Bertie


That's a very good point, Bertie.

When doing power on stalls, it works exactly as one would expect. I have a
significantly higher angle of attack to get to stall buffet with the flaps
in than with them out. In fact, with flaps in, you need to get up to
nearly 30 degrees nose high just to start getting stall buffet. I remember
the first time I did this I thought I was going to roll backwards out of my
seat. But in this case I'm comparing no flaps to full flaps, which is
almost 45 degrees.

Remember that the Rallye also has Fowler flaps. In the maximum effort take
off, 1/2 flaps basically only lowers them 15 degrees while reaching maximum
rearward extension. I'm wondering if in this case the change in speed from
75 MPH (Vx) to 81 MPH (Vy) offets the effect of the 15 degree downward to a
greater extent. Anything less than 1/2 flaps and all you have done is
extend them rearward with no downward angle.

--
Marty Shapiro
Silicon Rallye Inc.

(remove SPAMNOT to email me)

george wrote in news:1d794c95-8b8f-49e7-9e3a-
:

On Jul 20, 6:23 pm, Bertie the Bunyip wrote:

Oh yeah. Obviously! The little engine ones went OK and I even flew an ST
and did some aerobatics in it, which it did farily well compared to
similar airplanes. In Europe they're nicknamed the "tin parachute" for
their ability to settle to earth with the stick fully back at a minimal
rate. The idea being that someone who gets stuck in IMC without the
ability to fly out of it can close the power, pull the stick back and
probably have a better chance than thye would if they continued to push
onwards. The engine out scenario was supposed to be the same. I wouldn't
like to try it, however!

Yup.
I heard the same story about some-one in France lost above cloud who
used that technique.
As I soloed in the Rallye featured in the photo I have a lot of regard
for that particular aeroplane.
As to stability there -was- a private owner who would drop the control
lock over the stick and concentrate on his navigation.

Marty
What are the new Socatta (I think they're called) like to fly?
and do they have lockable slots ?
Used to be quite distracting on a crosscountry for the passengers with
them banging away
.



If by new SOCATAs you mean the Islander series (Tampico, Trinidad, Tobago),
which were the successors to the Rallye, I have never flown one. I
believe they do not have leading edge slats.

I don't have the problem of the slats deploying in cruise unless I hit
moderate or more turbulence or chop. The heavy airframe Rallyes have slat
dampeners, which may also explain why they don't bang when they do
deploy/retract compared to the light airframe models.

I've flown quite a few Angel Flights in the Rallye and just explain the
slats to the passengers as part of my passenger briefing just before take
off and again just before I do my pre-landing check list. So far, it has
not been a problem.

I really love the Rallye, but in many ways I'm glad that I did NOT learn to
fly in one. It lets you get a way with too much that most aircraft won't.
I'm glad I used a Cessna to learn stalls and MCA, where, when I made a
mistake, it was very, very obvious. With the Rallye, you just mush. But
it is a very stable platform and that, coupled with its great visibility,
makes it a pleasure to fly cross country. Again, my point of view is based
on the heavy airframe models, specifically the 235. It might very well be
different for the light airframes, but I don't have any experience with
them.

I wouldn't try that control lock trick in the 4-seaters which have yokes,
not control sticks. The control lock is the tow bar. The rudder "pedals"
are two tubes. The upper tube is the brakes and the lower tube is the
rudder. There is a gap between the upper and lower tubes. The lower tubes
on the pilots side are hollow. You insert the handle of the tow bar into
the lower tubes and then slide a pin through the control column on the
yoke. Not something I'd want to do in flight.

--
Marty Shapiro
Silicon Rallye Inc.

(remove SPAMNOT to email me)

On Jul 21, 11:06 am, Marty Shapiro
wrote:
george wrote in news:1d794c95-8b8f-49e7-9e3a-
:



On Jul 20, 6:23 pm, Bertie the Bunyip wrote:

Oh yeah. Obviously! The little engine ones went OK and I even flew an ST
and did some aerobatics in it, which it did farily well compared to
similar airplanes. In Europe they're nicknamed the "tin parachute" for
their ability to settle to earth with the stick fully back at a minimal
rate. The idea being that someone who gets stuck in IMC without the
ability to fly out of it can close the power, pull the stick back and
probably have a better chance than thye would if they continued to push
onwards. The engine out scenario was supposed to be the same. I wouldn't
like to try it, however!

Yup.
I heard the same story about some-one in France lost above cloud who
used that technique.
As I soloed in the Rallye featured in the photo I have a lot of regard
for that particular aeroplane.
As to stability there -was- a private owner who would drop the control
lock over the stick and concentrate on his navigation.

Marty
What are the new Socatta (I think they're called) like to fly?
and do they have lockable slots ?
Used to be quite distracting on a crosscountry for the passengers with
them banging away
.

If by new SOCATAs you mean the Islander series (Tampico, Trinidad, Tobago),
which were the successors to the Rallye, I have never flown one. I
believe they do not have leading edge slats.

I don't have the problem of the slats deploying in cruise unless I hit
moderate or more turbulence or chop. The heavy airframe Rallyes have slat
dampeners, which may also explain why they don't bang when they do
deploy/retract compared to the light airframe models.

I've flown quite a few Angel Flights in the Rallye and just explain the
slats to the passengers as part of my passenger briefing just before take
off and again just before I do my pre-landing check list. So far, it has
not been a problem.

I really love the Rallye, but in many ways I'm glad that I did NOT learn to
fly in one. It lets you get a way with too much that most aircraft won't.
I'm glad I used a Cessna to learn stalls and MCA, where, when I made a
mistake, it was very, very obvious. With the Rallye, you just mush. But
it is a very stable platform and that, coupled with its great visibility,
makes it a pleasure to fly cross country. Again, my point of view is based
on the heavy airframe models, specifically the 235. It might very well be
different for the light airframes, but I don't have any experience with
them.

I wouldn't try that control lock trick in the 4-seaters which have yokes,
not control sticks. The control lock is the tow bar. The rudder "pedals"
are two tubes. The upper tube is the brakes and the lower tube is the
rudder. There is a gap between the upper and lower tubes. The lower tubes
on the pilots side are hollow. You insert the handle of the tow bar into
the lower tubes and then slide a pin through the control column on the
yoke. Not something I'd want to do in flight.


Thanks. These control locks were inserted around the bottom of the
instrument panel and dropped over the LH stick.
My favourite was the metal plate with blocks of wood top and bottom
that you slid between the elevators and tailplane

Marty Shapiro wrote in
:

Bertie the Bunyip wrote in
:

Marty Shapiro wrote in
:

Bertie the Bunyip wrote in
:

Yeahm but you have a big engine one, don;t you?

Been years since I've flown one, but the slats should alter the
chord line and give a high deck angle with no flaps out.

Yes, I have the 235. I've never flown the smaller ones.

The deck angle is even higher with the flaps out. When I want to
pop it off the runway, I use 1/2 flaps (at this setting, they are
pretty much only about 15 degrees down, but at maximum extension)and
pitch for Vx. Trim for Vx and then simply raising the flaps will
lower the nose slightly and put me right on Vy.

The slats, as you know, are automatic, and will pretty much stay out
in a climb until you lower the nose to about 85-90 MPH indicated.
The slats are in for a cruise climb (106 MPH).


hmmm, strange that the angle would be higher with flaps out, The mean
chord line should change and require a lower deck angle for a given
airspeed.


Bertie


That's a very good point, Bertie.

When doing power on stalls, it works exactly as one would expect. I
have a significantly higher angle of attack to get to stall buffet
with the flaps in than with them out. In fact, with flaps in, you
need to get up to nearly 30 degrees nose high just to start getting
stall buffet. I remember the first time I did this I thought I was
going to roll backwards out of my seat. But in this case I'm
comparing no flaps to full flaps, which is almost 45 degrees.

Remember that the Rallye also has Fowler flaps. In the maximum effort
take off, 1/2 flaps basically only lowers them 15 degrees while
reaching maximum rearward extension. I'm wondering if in this case
the change in speed from 75 MPH (Vx) to 81 MPH (Vy) offets the effect
of the 15 degree downward to a greater extent. Anything less than 1/2
flaps and all you have done is extend them rearward with no downward
angle.


Yeah, could be. We have a similar setup on most jets where they travle
backwards for the first couple of settings. The slats come out at the
same time so the airplane tends to sit a couple of degrees more deck
angle than it does clean.

Bertie the Bunyip wrote in
:

Marty Shapiro wrote in
:

Bertie the Bunyip wrote in
:

Marty Shapiro wrote in
:

Bertie the Bunyip wrote in
:

Yeahm but you have a big engine one, don;t you?

Been years since I've flown one, but the slats should alter the
chord line and give a high deck angle with no flaps out.

Yes, I have the 235. I've never flown the smaller ones.

The deck angle is even higher with the flaps out. When I want to
pop it off the runway, I use 1/2 flaps (at this setting, they are
pretty much only about 15 degrees down, but at maximum extension)and
pitch for Vx. Trim for Vx and then simply raising the flaps will
lower the nose slightly and put me right on Vy.

The slats, as you know, are automatic, and will pretty much stay out
in a climb until you lower the nose to about 85-90 MPH indicated.
The slats are in for a cruise climb (106 MPH).


hmmm, strange that the angle would be higher with flaps out, The mean
chord line should change and require a lower deck angle for a given
airspeed.


Bertie


That's a very good point, Bertie.

When doing power on stalls, it works exactly as one would expect. I
have a significantly higher angle of attack to get to stall buffet
with the flaps in than with them out. In fact, with flaps in, you
need to get up to nearly 30 degrees nose high just to start getting
stall buffet. I remember the first time I did this I thought I was
going to roll backwards out of my seat. But in this case I'm
comparing no flaps to full flaps, which is almost 45 degrees.

Remember that the Rallye also has Fowler flaps. In the maximum effort
take off, 1/2 flaps basically only lowers them 15 degrees while
reaching maximum rearward extension. I'm wondering if in this case
the change in speed from 75 MPH (Vx) to 81 MPH (Vy) offets the effect
of the 15 degree downward to a greater extent. Anything less than 1/2
flaps and all you have done is extend them rearward with no downward
angle.


Yeah, could be. We have a similar setup on most jets where they travle
backwards for the first couple of settings. The slats come out at the
same time so the airplane tends to sit a couple of degrees more deck
angle than it does clean.



Don't you have control of the slats on the jets you fly? On the Rallye
they are automatic based on angle of attack.

--
Marty Shapiro
Silicon Rallye Inc.

(remove SPAMNOT to email me)

Marty Shapiro wrote in
:

Bertie the Bunyip wrote in
:

Marty Shapiro wrote in
:

Bertie the Bunyip wrote in
:

Marty Shapiro wrote in
:

Bertie the Bunyip wrote in
:

Yeahm but you have a big engine one, don;t you?

Been years since I've flown one, but the slats should alter the
chord line and give a high deck angle with no flaps out.

Yes, I have the 235. I've never flown the smaller ones.

The deck angle is even higher with the flaps out. When I want to
pop it off the runway, I use 1/2 flaps (at this setting, they are
pretty much only about 15 degrees down, but at maximum extension)
and
pitch for Vx. Trim for Vx and then simply raising the flaps will
lower the nose slightly and put me right on Vy.

The slats, as you know, are automatic, and will pretty much stay
out
in a climb until you lower the nose to about 85-90 MPH indicated.
The slats are in for a cruise climb (106 MPH).


hmmm, strange that the angle would be higher with flaps out, The
mean
chord line should change and require a lower deck angle for a given
airspeed.


Bertie


That's a very good point, Bertie.

When doing power on stalls, it works exactly as one would expect. I
have a significantly higher angle of attack to get to stall buffet
with the flaps in than with them out. In fact, with flaps in, you
need to get up to nearly 30 degrees nose high just to start getting
stall buffet. I remember the first time I did this I thought I was
going to roll backwards out of my seat. But in this case I'm
comparing no flaps to full flaps, which is almost 45 degrees.

Remember that the Rallye also has Fowler flaps. In the maximum
effort
take off, 1/2 flaps basically only lowers them 15 degrees while
reaching maximum rearward extension. I'm wondering if in this case
the change in speed from 75 MPH (Vx) to 81 MPH (Vy) offets the
effect
of the 15 degree downward to a greater extent. Anything less than
1/2
flaps and all you have done is extend them rearward with no downward
angle.


Yeah, could be. We have a similar setup on most jets where they
travle
backwards for the first couple of settings. The slats come out at the
same time so the airplane tends to sit a couple of degrees more deck
angle than it does clean.



Don't you have control of the slats on the jets you fly? On the
Rallye
they are automatic based on angle of attack.


We do, but on most airplanes they come out when you select flaps.
Ususally, there are two slat positions, depending on the type of slat.
The first stage of slats comes out when you select the first stage of
flap and the second stage of slats comes out when you select the final
stages.
On airbusses, though, at least most of them, the frist selection
position selects slats only,and this is often the position you take off
in. No flaps and slats at 15 deg. Other guys not familiar with this wil
shout at you that your flaps are up as you taxi onto the runway if they
happen to be behind you.


Bertie