Buying LS3a or ASW20a? ~$25k cross country glider. Which one and why?

"Jesus flap".....never heard that before.....but......having flown an early -20(a), yes, every spring after getting used to things, I would come down final VERY high....then, full brakes and full flaps....Frikkin felt like standing on the rudder pedals but limited speed increase...impressive!
The 20C was close, but not quite as good.

Winglets help on the low speed end depending on what design....some are more high speed others are low/mid range speeds.
For most thermal spots, I would lean to a 20C since some auto hookups.
Strong thermals and ridge, I would lean to a 20B due to wingloading.

The 20 B & C have automatic elevator hookup - caveat that the extremely hamhanded could possibly misalign.

There's been some attrition of the "a" model and a few pilots because of failed elevator hookups.

On Wed, 03 Apr 2019 14:17:04 -0700, George Haeh wrote:

There's been some attrition of the "a" model and a few pilots because of
failed elevator hookups.

I never minded the elevator hook-up because at least it was out in the
open and easy to see while you connected it. OTOH I really disliked
fumbling in the dark inside that tiny hatch with six connections to make.
At least mine had Weedekind sleeves fitted: doing the job without them
and trying to fit the safety clips one-handed doesn't bear thinking about.

BTW, some numbers for the OP: after soloing I flew the club's SZD Juniors
for a year before converting to a Pegasus 101 (at Williams) with 83
hours, mostly winch launches, so 223 flights). For the next three years I
flew the club's Peg 90 and Discuses, greatly preferring the Peg (better
all-round vis and comfort). Then I bought an early ASW-20 - at that time
I had 272 hours and 411 launches. I reckon it took me another 35 hours
before being fully comfortable with it, i.e. being in the right flap
setting at all times.


--
Martin | martin at
Gregorie | gregorie dot org

Dont rule out the Ventus, although getting one for 25k it will surely be run out. It made a huge difference in handling when I added a tail tank and got the cg back to 85-90%. Winglets make low speed handling better too.

CH 3500 hrs in Ventus B now in a ASW27

On Wed, 3 Apr 2019 09:16:48 -0700 (PDT), Mike the Strike
wrote:

The first iteration of the ASW-20 (there never was an "a" model as such) had a very aggressive flap setting, known by many of us as the "Jesus flap". That's what you said the first time you deployed it - lots and lots of drag, big change in attitude and no extra lift. I believe that most early spin accidents with the ASW-20 resulted from the combination of rearward CG plus early deployment of full landing flap in the pattern followed by a stall/spin on turning.

Err... probably not.
The 20 is extremely tame in landing flap setting (4 and 5) due to its
extreme wing twist (both ailerons actually go up).

The only flap setting where it enters a spin is 4, the thermalling
setting.



Cheers
Andreas

I have flown both and I feel the control harmony of the -3a was just fabulous. I miss it. The two guys I know who sold an LS to "upgrade" to a Schempp-Hirth product were disgusted with their new acquisitions and ditched them promptly. Done many inspections on German ships from 3 other mfg. and IMHO none I have seen yet are superior in construction and design to the LS.

I have about 3,000 hours on various ASWs incl. ASW 20, 20B,(both without winglets) and now ASW 27. I found the ASW 20 to be a wonderful machine, but, as others have said, the full landing flap has to be used carefully. My brother was more of an S-H man having owned a Standard Cirrus, Mini-Nimbus and then a Ventus B. He did very well with them in competitions. Finally, he bought a share in an ASW 20C. After his first flight his only comment was " now I know why you guys did so well in the ASW 20s". He found the handling to be quite a bit better than that of the Ventus B. I also found that the ASW 20B and Ventus B were equals in almost all conditions but the ASW had the handling edge.

On Sunday, 31 March 2019 23:04:06 UTC-4, Michael N. wrote:
I'm looking for a glider for cross country in the $25k range.

I'd like to get a flapped 15 meter, and have been doing a lot of searching and reading on the groups and have kind of narrowed my decision down to an ASW20 or LS3a

I have about 200 hours in gliders all glass, but never anything with flaps, however I also owned and have several hundred hours in a Mooney M20C so have good experience in complex aircraft that require good in flight planning for various aspects of flight.

I was also considering the following, and will list some of my reasons for weeding them out of my choice list.

Ventus B: Great performance, but my understanding from reading (no actual experience) is that they are not forgiving or maybe a better way of putting it, is they require full time attention which can be fatiguing on long flights.

DG 200 or 202, good aircraft but you have to pay annual fees just to buy parts?

Mini Nimbus: also good aircraft, just not up to the same performance level as an ASW20

That kind of leaves the ASW20 or LS3 in this price range and category. Unless I am missing something.

So which would you have and why?
I am leaning towards an ASW20 purchase, but am finding some very well equipped LS3a's in the same price range as a moderately equipped ASW20.

Assuming similar clamshell style trailers and self rigging gear, which is the better buy or which would you have and why?

Also, anyone knowing of an ASW20 or LS3 for sale not already on Wings and Wheels, I'd like to hear about it.

Thanks, I know this topic has been brought up before, but I am in the final stages of preparing for a purchase before the 2019 season gets into full swing and would like to get some final advice before pulling the trigger on this purchase.

One remark I would like to make to Micheal N. that has not been made so far on this thread as to do with the 3000 hrs inspection that a certified A/C might require. In the cohort of gliders that you are considering (70s - 80s) you may find A/C getting close to this milestone. This may have to be considered in your purchase decision.

In my case, getting the inspection and maintenance for a life extension to 6000 hrs was a "piece of cake". That was due in part because of the great maintenance job that the two previous owners did on our ASW-20 (wink,wink, THX Uli), and also for the great engineering and support from AS. The few pieces that we had to change (rudder cable, forward and aft carry-through pins, rudder bottom hinge) were easy to obtain, relatively inexpensive and a charm to install. A member at my club, who also had to get the 6000 hrs life extension for his non-AS german glider would have a completely different and more expensive story to tell.

My point, for Micheal N., is not to do any "my glider vs your glider" bashing, but to point out that this may be an important variable to add in your purchase equation. As a first owner, you should be aware of this.

As for the "Jesus Flaps"... they are a lot of fun but you have to used with care. Only deploy when you know you are making the field. I have read, I believe in the POH, that the ASW-20 with full spoilers and the "JF" gets an incredible 4:1 glide ratio. From the cockpit, this almost look like going straight down :-0


On Wednesday, 3 April 2019 18:48:53 UTC-4, wrote:
I have about 3,000 hours on various ASWs incl. ASW 20, 20B,(both without winglets) and now ASW 27. I found the ASW 20 to be a wonderful machine, but, as others have said, the full landing flap has to be used carefully. My brother was more of an S-H man having owned a Standard Cirrus, Mini-Nimbus and then a Ventus B. He did very well with them in competitions. Finally, he bought a share in an ASW 20C. After his first flight his only comment was " now I know why you guys did so well in the ASW 20s". He found the handling to be quite a bit better than that of the Ventus B. I also found that the ASW 20B and Ventus B were equals in almost all conditions but the ASW had the handling edge.

Originally Posted by KarlBoutin

One remark I would like to make to Micheal N. that has not been made so far on this thread as to do with the 3000 hrs inspection that a certified A/C might require. In the cohort of gliders that you are considering (70s - 80s) you may find A/C getting close to this milestone. This may have to be considered in your purchase decision.

In my case, getting the inspection and maintenance for a life extension to 6000 hrs was a "piece of cake". That was due in part because of the great maintenance job that the two previous owners did on our ASW-20 (wink,wink, THX Uli), and also for the great engineering and support from AS. The few pieces that we had to change (rudder cable, forward and aft carry-through pins, rudder bottom hinge) were easy to obtain, relatively inexpensive and a charm to install. A member at my club, who also had to get the 6000 hrs life extension for his non-AS german glider would have a completely different and more expensive story to tell.

My point, for Micheal N., is not to do any "my glider vs your glider" bashing, but to point out that this may be an important variable to add in your purchase equation. As a first owner, you should be aware of this.

As for the "Jesus Flaps"... they are a lot of fun but you have to used with care. Only deploy when you know you are making the field. I have read, I believe in the POH, that the ASW-20 with full spoilers and the "JF" gets an incredible 4:1 glide ratio. From the cockpit, this almost look like going straight down :-0


On Wednesday, 3 April 2019 18:48:53 UTC-4, wrote:
I have about 3,000 hours on various ASWs incl. ASW 20, 20B,(both without winglets) and now ASW 27. I found the ASW 20 to be a wonderful machine, but, as others have said, the full landing flap has to be used carefully. My brother was more of an S-H man having owned a Standard Cirrus, Mini-Nimbus and then a Ventus B. He did very well with them in competitions. Finally, he bought a share in an ASW 20C. After his first flight his only comment was " now I know why you guys did so well in the ASW 20s". He found the handling to be quite a bit better than that of the Ventus B. I also found that the ASW 20B and Ventus B were equals in almost all conditions but the ASW had the handling edge.

Lurker for a while as well as a new 20a driver . I was dying to try the flaps I heard about so much . I did a test pattern at 2,000 ft to familiarize myself with the descent angle . And Damn for me it's like being back in a 1-26 with the spoilers out save for better visibility over the nose . I tossed in a slip as well but it didn't seem to make much difference . I pulled spoilers in and flared a bit higher as I had 3/4 of a 2000' runway and stopped in 600' after touchdown without brakes . I can honestly say knowing the option is there for an off field landing helps reduce stress. But as others noted make sure you have the field made and only use them when on final .

This thread makes me want to go find a LS