A aviation & planes forum. AviationBanter

If this is your first visit, be sure to check out the FAQ by clicking the link above. You may have to register before you can post: click the register link above to proceed. To start viewing messages, select the forum that you want to visit from the selection below.

Go Back   Home » AviationBanter forum » rec.aviation newsgroups » Piloting
Site Map Home Register Authors List Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read Web Partners

MAC oover Denver



 
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #1  
Old May 13th 21, 08:05 PM posted to rec.aviation.piloting
Larry Dighera
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 3,953
Default MAC oover Denver

Two small airplanes collide midair above Denver, no one injured, authorities
say

Apparently, the two aircraft were cleared to land on intersecting runways,
and the Cirrus pilot overshot his approach.
https://denver.cbslocal.com/2021/05/...voir-colorado/

A very close call indeed. From the look of the wreckage, if either the wing
or empennage of the Metroliner had been hit, it would have likely impacted
the ground in a ball of fire.

It seems like ATC should have some means of sequencing aircraft landing on
intersecting runways so that they don't both reach the intersection at the
same point in time.

Perhaps it would be prudent to decline such clearances ...

Larry
Ads
  #2  
Old May 13th 21, 10:05 PM posted to rec.aviation.piloting
Tobias Dussa
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 2
Default MAC oover Denver

Larry Dighera writes:
Apparently, the two aircraft were cleared to land on intersecting runways,


Not intersecting, but parallel. 17L and 17R. ATC recording is
available on YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f5tb2dVWJqc

More details on AvHerald: http://avherald.com/h?article=4e74b6e5

Cheers,
Toby.
--
I am Gates of Borg. Resistance is futile. You will be assimilated.
From now on, you will finance... us.
  #3  
Old May 14th 21, 03:10 PM posted to rec.aviation.piloting
Larry Dighera
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 3,953
Default MAC oover Denver


http://www.avweb.com/flight-safety/a...oliner-midair/

No Injuries Reported In SR-22, Metroliner Midair (Updated)
Kate O'Connor May 12, 202121

Image: Arapahoe County Sheriff’s Office
No injuries were reported in a midair collision involving a Key Lime Air SW4
Metroliner and a Cirrus SR-22 over Colorado’s Cherry Creek State Park on
Wednesday. According to the Arapahoe County Sheriff’s Office, there were two
people onboard the Cirrus and the aircraft’s CAPS whole-airframe parachute
was deployed. The only person onboard the Metroliner was the pilot, who was
able to land the aircraft at Centennial Airport (KAPA) following the
accident with near catastrophic damage to the aircraft’s rear fuselage
section.

“About 10:25 a.m. today, the sheriff’s office as well as South Metro Fire
began receiving calls of a plane crash near Belleview Avenue and South
Cherry Creek Drive,” said Arapahoe County Sheriff’s Office deputy John
Bartmann. “Deputies responded and found a single-engine plane had collided
with another plane midair. The other plane was able to land at Centennial
Airport without any issues and without any injuries.”

ADS-B tracking data from FlightAware shows that the Metroliner was inbound
from the west, being vectored for Runway 17L at Centennial, south of Denver.
The Cirrus, which was rented from KAPA-based Independence Aviation, was
returning to the airport after a flight to the north and was being vectored
for Runway 17R from the northwest. As heard in the audio below from
LiveATC.net, controllers were working the runways on different frequencies.
The Metroliner, identified as Key Lime Flight 970, was a repositioning
flight inbound to KAPA from Harriet Alexander Field (KANK) in Salida,
Colorado.

According to the audio, the Cirrus had been cleared to land on 17R behind a
Cessna, with another Cessna following. The Cirrus pilot called the first
Cessna in sight and when the Metro was also pointed out, he appeared to
confirm that traffic was in sight, too. The controller’s last transmission
was to warn the Cirrus pilot not to overshoot the final to 17R. Moments
later, the controller apparently saw the CAPs deployment and asked if the
Cirrus required assistance. The Metro pilot may have been unaware of the
collision. He declared an emergency after reporting an apparent engine
failure and continued to the airport to land without further incident.

Audio: LiveATC.net – Key Lime Flight 970
https://s30121.pcdn.co/wp-content/up...2021-1600Z.mp3

Audio: LiveATC.net – Cirrus SR-22 (6DJ)
https://s30121.pcdn.co/wp-content/up...2021-1600Z.mp3

The NTSB is investigating the accident and expects to publish its
preliminary report in the next 14 days. This story will be updated as more
information becomes available.

FlightAware ADS-B data, Centennial midair collision.

Image: The Aviation Herald

Submit Your Photo To Our Picture Of The Week Contest
Gallery April 15, 2021
21 COMMENTS
Rich K May 12, 2021 at 3:18 pm
And just last week, AvWeb ran a survey about “see and avoid”. From the looks
of the picture, the Cirrus didn’t do either. Amazing that the Metroliner
still has a tail!

Log in to leave a comment
Jeffrey S May 12, 2021 at 3:44 pm
Now THAT’S a well-designed airplane!

Log in to leave a comment
Rob May 12, 2021 at 3:55 pm
Nor did the Metroliner. Interesting how this can happen in Class D airspace.
I guess the local controller just sequences airplanes for landing. Seems
like the engineers all deserve a pat on the back!

Log in to leave a comment
Eric Reed May 12, 2021 at 9:52 pm
Looking at the ADS-B data, it appears the Cirrus was about 30 knots faster
maybe coming up from behind and to the right. The Metroliner pilot
definitely would not have seen him coming.
The Cirrus had reported Metroliner in sight, but by the time he was flying
through his final he may have been above with it straight in front of him.
Ultimately, it would have been the Cirrus pilots responsibility to maintain
visual separation.

Log in to leave a comment
Arthur Foyt May 13, 2021 at 8:37 am
I keep hearing “don’t fly through the final”. That’s ambiguous phraseology
since a final is always a cone shape that only narrows near the runway.

They need to be very clear and say “do not cross centerline”.

Log in to leave a comment
J.P. Fester May 14, 2021 at 8:34 am
Arthur, with all due respect, any pilot worth his beans, knows that you
SIMPLY don’t fly through the final of another runway! I wouldn’t even
attempt to blame this on the controllers. This accident happened because of
shear inattention of the Cirrus pilot. End of story.

roger anderson May 14, 2021 at 9:37 am
That’s all tower controllers do in the pattern, sequence you with who to
follow. It becomes you responsibility for separation then. The local
controller only has responsibility to provide runway separation, insuring
only the allowed number of folks are using it at once. Now this isn’t to say
Local would not reach out and add additional help of any type if they
recognize an immanent safety situation. But unfortunately, from the tower
cab and out to distances in the extended pattern, the eyeballs just can’t
see details of all that is going on. And it can happen so quick, considering
the tower controller isn’t just staring at one situation and must be looking
around at numerous activities at any time, they just can’t be there for
everyone every time. I say that from 38 years of ATC .

Log in to leave a comment
Matt W May 12, 2021 at 7:26 pm
Judging by the ATC video I saw, there is a lot more involved here than “see
and avoid”. Sure shows how rugged that Metroliner is, along with the cool
radio response of the cargo pilot. Glad to hear no injuries.

Log in to leave a comment
Tom O May 12, 2021 at 8:36 pm
I thought ADS-B would prevent Mid-Air Collision.. Oh, another Government
Program gone to $#*&..

Log in to leave a comment
Tom O May 12, 2021 at 8:37 pm
I thought ADS-B would prevent Mid-Air Collisions.. Ooop’s.. Another
Government Program gone to $#*&..

Log in to leave a comment
Arthur Foyt May 12, 2021 at 11:18 pm
The real beauty of the audio is listening to what’s being said in the
background. The Female controller is heard asking several times “what do you
want me to do”.

Log in to leave a comment
William Kalichman May 13, 2021 at 12:06 pm
ADSB may help sometimes and for many people and applications is worth
having. It’s not ADSB I’m opposed to rather the government mandate. Best way
to make me or a patriot resist is to make a mandate.

I saw a good video on this last night on YouTube.

It *appears* the Cirrus overshot the centerline and ran over the Metroliner.

Looking at the damage on the Metroliner it seems impossible it hit anyone;
rather was the one hit.

World class driving and coolness on the Metroliner’s pilot’s part.

Also looks like a CAPS save for the Cirrus.

Log in to leave a comment
John Mc May 13, 2021 at 12:37 pm
Wow, it’s a good thing the control cables for the Metroliner’s tail go
through the belly and not overhead. Hard to believe there was enough
structure left to hold the tail in place. It appears there is a visible sag
of the aft structure in the ground photo.

Log in to leave a comment
Matt W May 13, 2021 at 5:50 pm
The floor may have been reinforced since it is a cargo hauler.

Log in to leave a comment
Larry S May 13, 2021 at 4:58 pm
Here’s a question no one has yet asked … did the Cirrus’ ELT go off ??
Sounds like another subject for a subsequent PBgram ?? . Here’s a perfect
example of ‘when ADS-B ‘out’ stops … that’s where the airplane is.

Also, did either or both airplanes have and use ADS-B ‘in?’ Does all the
Cirrus’ automation give a verbal “traffic, traffic” call out?

Log in to leave a comment
Cameron Garner May 13, 2021 at 5:21 pm
The pattern is no place for flying ‘heads-down’!!

Log in to leave a comment
Matt W May 13, 2021 at 5:56 pm
All the fancy ADS-B garbage does no good when you don’t follow ATC
instructions after acknowledging traffic that was already pointed out. When
doing close parallel visual approaches with traffic already known, you need
your eyes looking out the window, not heads down trying to interpret a
display. And when told to not overshoot the final on the runway you are
cleared for you make sure you don’t overshoot!

Log in to leave a comment
Wise OldMan May 14, 2021 at 3:56 am
…and Bertorelli insulted a YouTube commenter and told others the guy was
full of sh*t for correctly mentioning that Bertorelli and his Bristell demo
pilot had their heads inside 98% of the sunny Florida day video instead of
adequately clearing for traffic, then Bertorelli refused to apologize or
retract the insult when the relevant AC’s, AIM and FARs were pointed out to
him. Still hasn’t.

Log in to leave a comment
John Patson May 14, 2021 at 5:21 am
A good reason why you should try to avoid sitting at the back…
Old joke about trains has a little old lady asking a conductor which was the
most dangerous carriage to sit in.
“The last one,” he says
And she says “Then why don’t you take it off?”

Log in to leave a comment
Alpha Sierra May 14, 2021 at 8:08 am
There are many things to learn from this. When ATC pointed out the
metroliner traffic, the Cirrus pilot hesitantly acknowledged something, but
it didn’t come across as a positive confirmation. When in doubt, it is
better to say you don’t have it in sight. Once you report something as in
sight, then it becomes your problem. Second lesson is, be super careful when
parallel runway operations are taking place. Third lesson, don’t fly an
unusual pattern – too fast or too wide. If you have to, make sure everyone
in the pattern knows what you are doing. The metroliner pilot did a great
job. I will send my family flying with him any day. The Cirrus pilot needs
more training. The stars must have been aligned for him that day.

Log in to leave a comment
Jim Holdeman May 14, 2021 at 9:37 am
High density altitude, parallel runways, ATC controlling both runways on
different frequencies, calm winds on ground but a significant tailwind at
pattern altitude for right traffic assigned to 17R when on base, low wing
Cirrus airplane slightly higher than the Metroliner on a five mile straight
in final, following his assigned, identified, and verified Cessna target
aircraft in front of him, with all of these converging airplanes flying VFR
depending in their visuals for traffic separation, and ATC allowing all of
these converging aircraft, including a student on first solo, to arrive at
the same time in the same airspace. What could possibly go wrong?

Lots of opportunity for an accident chain to develop. I doubt of the Cirrus
pilot ever saw the Metroliner being in a right hand bank above and slightly
behind the Metroliner overtaking while descending. The Metroliner had no
idea he was virtually sawed in half by another airplane. All he knew was
that he had lost the right engine. See and avoid works when you see and
avoid. Hard to avoid what you don’t see. Ground speed as well as distance
goes up very fast at high density altitudes adding ingredients making a base
to final turn with a tailwind a distinct possibility for overshooting the
runway centerline. Not as serious of a problem for a 172 the Cirrus is
following. But using the assigned 172 target aircraft ahead for one’s visual
ques in a slick SR22 continues to whittle down any safety margins left when
three airplanes all converge with in a couple of hundred of feet of each
other on short final. I wonder how many tower people were looking outside of
their “cockpit” as well.

No one issue here. A bunch of issues all happening at the same time. It will
be interesting to see how the relationship of the NTSB and FAA come together
to sort this mess out.


On Thu, 13 May 2021 23:05:19 +0200, Tobias Dussa wrote:

Larry Dighera writes:
Apparently, the two aircraft were cleared to land on intersecting runways,


Not intersecting, but parallel. 17L and 17R. ATC recording is
available on YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f5tb2dVWJqc

More details on AvHerald: http://avherald.com/h?article=4e74b6e5

Cheers,
Toby.

 




Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Denver [email protected] Piloting 0 November 15th 08 07:34 AM
Denver GA airport cpw Piloting 8 May 31st 08 01:57 PM
MegaScenery Denver Pooty Lizard Simulators 0 June 6th 05 10:38 PM
Denver to Taos NM Paul kgyy Piloting 6 March 26th 05 03:32 AM
WTD: CFI-G, Denver area (USA) David Campbell Soaring 0 July 5th 04 09:23 PM


All times are GMT +1. The time now is 04:17 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.6.4
Copyright ©2000 - 2021, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Copyright ©2004-2021 AviationBanter.
The comments are property of their posters.