Cirrus vs ASW

At 09:30 12 March 2006, Michel Talon wrote:

The best cheap glider is the Pegasus, by far. But as
others have said,
there are at present problems, since the producer Centrair
has
abandoned production, and there is a stupid 3000 hours
limit. While
these problems are not cleared, it is perhaps not reasonable
to buy one.
It is certain that these problems will be cleared since
the Pegasus
is the basic club glider in France, there are a large
number in use,
and these clubs will do everything necessary to get
out of this trap.

I personally think the things ought to be scrapped
after 100 hours! A Standard Cirrus is much preferable,
giving very similar performance, but with decent German
manufacturing standards and a long service life. It
has nice, light, responsive handling, climbs well in
small thermals and has a big and comfortable cockpit.


The only issue is the all-flying tailplane versions.
The elevator loads do not change with speed, and the
glider lacks stick free stability in pitch. However
I have many hundreds of hours in Standard Cirri and
I have never found these issues to be a problem in
practice. If you could be put into the glider at 2000
feet and told to get on with flying it, you probably
wouldn't even notice the difference.

It is probably not a suitable glider for the really
ham fisted, or aerobatic freaks, and you should avoid
letting go of the stick for more than a second or so.
Other than that, it is a brilliant and relatively cheap
soaring club class glider and I don't think there is
anything to beat it for the money.

Derek Copeland (satisfied Standard Cirrus owner)

Derek Copeland wrote:

I personally think the things ought to be scrapped
after 100 hours! A Standard Cirrus is much preferable,
giving very similar performance, but with decent German
manufacturing standards ^^^^^^^^^^^^

I see that you are posting from UK! Do you remember
that Joan of Arc was living 6 hundred years and Napoleon
2 hundred years ago? You can spare us this bull****.

has nice, light, responsive handling, climbs well in
small thermals

So does the Pegase.

and has a big and comfortable cockpit.

This is the only thing true in your rant.

Other than that, it is a brilliant and relatively cheap
soaring club class glider and I don't think there is
anything to beat it for the money.

Other than that it has killed a fair number of pilots.


--

Michel TALON

At 08:18 14 March 2006, Michel Talon wrote:
Derek Copeland wrote:

I personally think the things ought to be scrapped
after 100 hours! A Standard Cirrus is much preferable,
giving very similar performance, but with decent German
manufacturing standards ^^^^^^^^^^^^

I see that you are posting from UK! Do you remember
that Joan of Arc was living 6 hundred years and Napoleon
2 hundred years ago? You can spare us this bull****.

has nice, light, responsive handling, climbs well
in
small thermals

So does the Pegase.

and has a big and comfortable cockpit.

This is the only thing true in your rant.

Other than that, it is a brilliant and relatively
cheap
soaring club class glider and I don't think there
is
anything to beat it for the money.

Other than that it has killed a fair number of pilots.


--

Michel TALON


Michel,

Derek Piggott describes the Pegase in his 'Help with
Chosing Your Next Glider' as follows:

Gereral handling - 5 out of 5.
Stalling characteristics - 4/5
Cockpit size - 4/5
Rigging & ground handling - average.

Comment - 'Very nice in all respects. Similar in performance
to ASW-19 but more feel to ailerons.

I wanted to buy one at one time but could not find
one in good enough condition.
Bought a Standard Jantar-3 instead - and am very satisfied
- other than with the wheel brake.

Owned an Open Cirrus for years - lovely to fly - pig
to rig.

Flew a club D75 Cirrus - now that really was a pig
!

Vive la Difference !

Bald Pilot.

UK.

Pilot Bald wrote:

Derek Piggott describes the Pegase in his 'Help with
Chosing Your Next Glider' as follows:

Gereral handling - 5 out of 5.
Stalling characteristics - 4/5
Cockpit size - 4/5
Rigging & ground handling - average.

This i agree totally. Rigging is not a strong point of the Pegase
(at least the first version). Cockpit size of the Cirrus is certainly
better.



Comment - 'Very nice in all respects. Similar in performance
to ASW-19 but more feel to ailerons.


From my own feeling, the Pegase is much better than the ASW19 in
all respects. Soft wings make it more comfortable, and it is much more stable
at low speed. I find it a better climber. A fantastic climber was the
ASW15.


Owned an Open Cirrus for years - lovely to fly - pig
to rig.

Flew a club D75 Cirrus - now that really was a pig

I have flown the Cirrus also, it has good qualities and is comfortable.
But it is spin prone, and this is a serious problem.


Vive la Difference !

Yes. I think the glider which has essentially 0 default from this period
is the LS4. Unfortunately people know that and it is more expensive.


--

Michel TALON

At 08:18 14 March 2006, Michel Talon wrote:
I see that you are posting from UK! Do you remember
that Joan of Arc was living 6 hundred years and Napoleon
2 hundred years ago? You can spare us this bull****.
----------------------------
Can I take it that you are French?
-----------------------------
has nice, light, responsive handling, climbs well
in
small thermals

So does the Pegase.

and has a big and comfortable cockpit.

This is the only thing true in your rant.
--------------------------------
I think that you have already admitted that, like the
Peg, the Standard Cirrus has nice, light and responsive
handling and climbs well in small thermals!

Standard Cirri have cleaned up at most recent Club
Class competitions.
--------------------------------
Other than that, it is a brilliant and relatively
cheap
soaring club class glider and I don't think there
is
anything to beat it for the money.

Other than that it has killed a fair number of pilots.
---------------------------------
When? I don't believe that the Standard Cirrus is any
more dangerous than any other type. It gives you plenty
of warning before it stalls and will normally spin
only if you force it to.

Derek copeland

At 12:37 14 March 2006, Michel Talon wrote:
Pilot Bald wrote:

Michel TALON

Michel,

This business of 3000 hour lifespan limitation is,
undoubtedly, a major hurdle.

I have some experience of this in relation to the Polish
Puchacz (6000 hours) but the matter seems to have been
resolved - at least in part.

Centrair will have to address itself to this problem
- but, as you say, there are many club Pegase in France
- so that pressure on the manufacturer will be substantial
and, I am sure, successful.

Centrair must have plenty of evidence that the structure
does not disintegrate after 3000 hours ??!!

It would be a great pity to see such a fine glider
grounded by default - and, of course, potential buyers
will be severely put off until the matter is resolved.

I wish all owners the best of luck.

Bald Pilot,

UK.

I have some experience of this in relation to the Polish
Puchacz (6000 hours) but the matter seems to have been
resolved - at least in part.

Send it away to Poland, and it comes back brand-spankin
clean with life extension to 12000hours. Its effectively
a new glider, and looks very attractive. Wasnt crazily
expensive, but the guy who had to tow it there....
:-s

Pilot Bald wrote:

This business of 3000 hour lifespan limitation is,
undoubtedly, a major hurdle.

Yes.


Centrair must have plenty of evidence that the structure
does not disintegrate after 3000 hours ??!!


Obviously if Centrair was still in business the life would be extended
exactly the same as all german gliders. The problem is that
Centrair is no more in the glider business, they subcontract parts for
other aviation factories:
http://www.indre.cci.fr/implanter/sa...=CAA&fic_id=24
I have found this by googling:

The FAA has published a recent Airworthiness Directive stating that all
Pegasus gliders are limited to 3000 total flight hours. This arose because the
original certification paperwork for the Pegasus in the U.S. stated there was
a 3000 hour life and did not include a procedure for a major inspection at
3000 hours to extend the life beyond that point. In Europe, the Pegasus has a
12,000 hour life limit with major inspections required each 3000 hours. Once
Centrair comes up with a 3000 hour inspection procedure that satisfies the
FAA, the FAA should publish a new AD setting forth that procedure and allowing
Pegasus gliders to be used beyond 3000 hours if the inspection is complied
with. Hopefully, that new AD should come out in a few months.

Of course this 12000 hours limit is a reasonable limit and extends to a period
where nobody will still want to fly such an old beast.

Clearly Centrair treats its american customers in an indecent way, and
this is a major problem for them. Am i surprised of this lack of seriousness?
Not really, knowing all those stories about the Marianne and other Centrair
fiascos. To extend the discussion one of the main problems in France is the
poor state of small industries (what we call PME). Conversely Germany
has a very strong net of such small industries, which innovate, export, etc.
The Pegasus was a success, not because of Centrair, but because of the wing
studies by public researchers, and subsidies by the French glider
associations. When all that run out, so did Centrair.


--

Michel TALON

The Pegasus was also a success because of the lessons learnt when producing
the ASW20 under licence.

The Pegasus is clearly an unflapped version of the ASW20, just as the LS8 is
an unflapped version of the LS6.

W.J. (Bill) Dean (U.K.).
Remove "ic" to reply.


"Michel Talon" wrote in message
...


Pilot Bald wrote:

This business of 3000 hour lifespan limitation is,
undoubtedly, a major hurdle.


Yes.

snip

Clearly Centrair treats its American customers in an indecent way, and
this is a major problem for them. Am I surprised of this lack of
seriousness? Not really, knowing all those stories about the Marianne
and other Centrair fiascos. To extend the discussion one of the main
problems in France is the poor state of small industries (what we call
PME). Conversely Germany has a very strong net of such small industries,
which innovate, export, etc. The Pegasus was a success, not because of
Centrair, but because of the wing studies by public researchers, and
subsidies by the French glider associations. When all that run out, so
did Centrair.

Michel TALON

The Pegasus has a completely different airfoil (developed by the French
research institute ONERA) than the Schleicher gliders, and it's the reason
that a Pegasus has a significantly higher performance than an ASW19. But for
the rest, I agree :-)

"W.J. (Bill) Dean (U.K.)." wrote in message
...
The Pegasus was also a success because of the lessons learnt when
producing
the ASW20 under licence.

The Pegasus is clearly an unflapped version of the ASW20, just as the LS8
is
an unflapped version of the LS6.

W.J. (Bill) Dean (U.K.).
Remove "ic" to reply.


"Michel Talon" wrote in message
...


Pilot Bald wrote:

This business of 3000 hour lifespan limitation is,
undoubtedly, a major hurdle.


Yes.

snip

Clearly Centrair treats its American customers in an indecent way, and
this is a major problem for them. Am I surprised of this lack of
seriousness? Not really, knowing all those stories about the Marianne
and other Centrair fiascos. To extend the discussion one of the main
problems in France is the poor state of small industries (what we call
PME). Conversely Germany has a very strong net of such small
industries,
which innovate, export, etc. The Pegasus was a success, not because of
Centrair, but because of the wing studies by public researchers, and
subsidies by the French glider associations. When all that run out, so
did Centrair.

Michel TALON