Cirrus vs ASW

I do have several hundred hours in 2 Standard cirruses,
and although I can't say that I haven't had the odd
fright and even a couple of very minor accidents in
them, these have always been down to me getting into
stupid situations, rather than any fault with the handling
of the glider.

Any production glider will have gone through much testing
by its makers and then the airworthiness authorities,
to make sure that it is quite safe for averagely skillful
glider pilots to fly. The Standard Cirrus is no exception
to the rule. For quite a few years it was the 'bees
knees' standard class glider and it is still probably
the best 'Club Class' glider even today. Over 700 of
them were built between 1969 and 1985 and most of these
are still flying.

All flying tailplanes were a fashion in the 1960s,
as they avoided any drag from kinks between the tailplane
and the elevator throughout the speed range. However
it is almost impossible to properly seal the joint
between the tailplane and the fin, and it was realised
that you could get the same performance from a fixed
tailplane with a separate elevator, without the poor
stick free stability in pitch and the low stick loads
per g which characterised the all-flying tailplane.
However as long as you fly smoothly and don't let go
of the stick for long periods, I don't believe that
these are major problems.

The controls are all pretty light on the Standard Cirrus,
and I remember my briefing for my first flight on type
was 'If the controls feel as though they are not connected,
don't worry about it'. I didn't and instantly liked
it. The comfortable cockpit and the light controls
mean that you can fly it all day without getting tired.


Overall it is a classic glider and one of the few glass
single seaters that looks distinctive in the air.

BTW, there have been far more accidents caused by pilots
failing to connect the elevator on ASW19s and 20s than
there have been for the Standard Cirrus, which should
self connect if you put the tailplane on properly.
The secret is to set the trim fully forward and to
offer up the tailplane nose down so that the elevator
drive hook is engaged first. Then lower the rear and
operate the spring loaded catch. If you do get it
wrong the tailplane will sit more nose up than normal
with the stick jammed forward. This should become obvious
when do a positive control check.

Derek Copeland
------------------------------------------------
At 22:36 23 March 2006, Marc Ramsey wrote:
Bruce wrote:
As a DG Driver may we assume you do not have 'hundreds
of hours in
ASW20s and Std Cirrus'? If so I assume you are one
of those making
pronouncements based on hearsay?

Actually, I have about 200 hours in various ASW-20
models, including an
ASW-20BL which I owned for a couple of years. You'll
note I explicitly
indicated that I could not comment on the characteristics
of the
Standard Cirrus, as I've never even sat in one and
made glider noises.
The one thing I did say was with respect to my general
dislike of
gliders with manual elevator hookups. We had recent
accident here in
the US that indicates one can indeed take off (but
not land) with the
elevator disconnected in a Standard Cirrus.

For your future reference if I say anything about the
K-21, Grob 103,
ASW-20, Ventus B, Duo, LAK-17A, and yes, DG-101, 300,
and 303, it is
based on anything from 50 to 300 hours of experience.
I don't think you
can point to too many of my posts where I talk about
about gliders I've
never flown. I just bought a DG-600 (a glider with
a bad reputation,
BTW), so expect further pronouncements.

Both the preceding posts contain wisdom. My first
flight in a single
seater of any sort was in my Std Cirrus. Though the
CFI and other
instructors allowed me to take the flight the responsibility
for taking
it was mine. Same with any person making a first flight
on type in a
single seater. The famous inscription at the Temple
of Apollo at the
entrance to the oracle of Delphi says - 'Know thyself'
As Bob said, you
are responsible for your own safety. Objective self
assessment is your
only rational option.

Absolutely. My argument is with the notion that because
one has had
good experiences with a particular glider, anyone who
makes a few
negative comments must therefore be talking out of
their arse, even if
they actually have as much or more experience in type.
There is a lot
of personal preference at work here. ALL gliders have
positives and
negatives. If someone asks, they need to hear both
sides.

Marc

Marc,

You and I said about the same thing in different ways. However, I don't
agree that persons speaking from their experience will always impart
wisdom. I posted the truth, that I have 1 flight of 2 hours in a
Standard Cirrus. That has nothing to do with the meat of the matter. I
don't personally care for Jantars, but someone looking at one to buy it
has to figure out for himself/herself whether or not that ship is what
they want, and can handle. How does one go about that? I would talk to
several folks that have them, currently. If they all describe the same
thing that's likely to kill you, then you'd be foolhardy to buy it.
When I first flew the 1-35 I mentioned, all the nay-sayers were porch
sitters that hadn't flown it. How did they know whether it had bad
habits? The person that told me it's "just another airplane with it's
own traits" did me a favor. I was glad in a way that almost no one else
flew it, because it was a club ship that I could keep all afternoon. I
had a ball.

So, because you missed the point of my rant, here it is: Just because
you don't like something doesn't make it bad, or wrong for me. Just
because something's dangerous for you doesn't make it dangerous for me.
Just because something is beyond your skill level, doesn't make it
beyond mine. Yes, designs have improved, but that doesn't make the
older ones inherantly dangerous. Are there dangerous gliders out there?
Yes, absolutely, and especially in the wrong hands, and even more
especially with the wrong advice. The former owner of my PIK was told
to begin his first takeoff with +45 degrees of flap... what a surprise
he had! There are certainly gliders out there that I wouldn't fly,
because they are beyond my skill level. I know which ones they are. I'm
not bashing them here nor anywhere else.

I may be crazy, bit I'm not stupid. Stupid may be listening to someone
telling you of his experiences, while not telling you the whole story.
I read an account of a guy in a 1-35 that had an accident at initial
rollout. What I got from it was that he had no business in that ship.
Unfortunately, the writeup villified that airplane. That's just one
example of not getting the whole story. Eric was forthcoming with his
experiences, and is a well-intentioned gentleman from everything I have
read on RAS. I just don't think he's a good judge of whether or not the
original poster would be fine with a Cirrus or not. Only that person
can figure that out. And, whether or not I've owned a Standard Cirrus
has naught to do with that argument.

Jack Womack

I was hoping not to feel the need to get into the usual All-Flying Tail
of Death thread that happens every time we bring up the Std. Cirrus.
As a pilot who's first personal glass ship was a Std. Cirrus, Serial
Number 17, I both learned cross-country in one but flew my two diamond
distance flights in it. Why is serial number 17 important? Because it
was the first Std. Cirrus George Moffat owned, so probably the one most
people have read comments on. It was suppose to have all kinds of
nasty habits that would kill the inexperienced pilot.

With a sane flight training plan I transitioned without much trouble.
I set a 10 flight, 25 hour minimum of local flying to get familiar with
the plane. I stalled it, spun it and most importantly learned to slip
it and land it at the correct air speeds.

The plane never dropped a wing without clear warning, flew beautifully
and was one of the best handling gliders I have ever flown. It would
land on a dime flown correctly. Just don't fly it 10 knots too fast
on final or it will float. The Std Cirrus will climb with a Std.
Libelle and out climb anything else I flew against. With a slip it
would groove a thermal and climb amazingly. It will run well and is
probably the best of that generation of gliders.

The only weakness was the inability to take your hands off the stick.
But you learn to fly that way, trim it very carefully at slow speed if
you need to take care of some business in the cockpit. Keep one eye
one it to see if it starts to wander in pitch.

It is light on the controls, but not severe. The wings are a crews
dream, some of the lightest of any glass ship. Rigs easily if done
with finesse, nearly impossibly if you try brute force. The tail must
be respected. Check and double check the connection and inspect the
guide bearings before each flight.

I logged 500 hours in the ship and loved every minute. She took me
everyplace a glass ship could and never had any bad habits. As a
graduate student on a budget my 1/3 of the ship was all I could afford
and I would not hesitate to recommend one to any competent pilot. As
PIC you must know your ability and take a positive approach to learning
a new ship. You must also fly often enough to maintain those skills,
especially when you are first stating to fly.

I went on to own the big brother and flew an additional 500 hours in
the Nimbus 2 (A model) with the same tail.

Tim
Ventus B (former Std Cirrus and Nimbus 2 owner)

Marc Ramsey wrote:
Bruce wrote:

As a DG Driver may we assume you do not have "hundreds of hours in
ASW20s and Std Cirrus"? If so I assume you are one of those making
pronouncements based on hearsay?


Actually, I have about 200 hours in various ASW-20 models, including an
ASW-20BL which I owned for a couple of years. You'll note I explicitly
indicated that I could not comment on the characteristics of the
Standard Cirrus, as I've never even sat in one and made glider noises.
The one thing I did say was with respect to my general dislike of
gliders with manual elevator hookups. We had recent accident here in
the US that indicates one can indeed take off (but not land) with the
elevator disconnected in a Standard Cirrus.

Sorry Marc - clumsy attempt at humour. I know you are experienced on a number of
types. Just did strike me that you were in danger of doing exactly what you were
criticizing...


For your future reference if I say anything about the K-21, Grob 103,
ASW-20, Ventus B, Duo, LAK-17A, and yes, DG-101, 300, and 303, it is
based on anything from 50 to 300 hours of experience. I don't think you
can point to too many of my posts where I talk about about gliders I've
never flown. I just bought a DG-600 (a glider with a bad reputation,
BTW), so expect further pronouncements.

Both the preceding posts contain wisdom. My first flight in a single
seater of any sort was in my Std Cirrus. Though the CFI and other
instructors allowed me to take the flight the responsibility for
taking it was mine. Same with any person making a first flight on type
in a single seater. The famous inscription at the Temple of Apollo at
the entrance to the oracle of Delphi says - "Know thyself" As Bob
said, you are responsible for your own safety. Objective self
assessment is your only rational option.


Absolutely. My argument is with the notion that because one has had
good experiences with a particular glider, anyone who makes a few
negative comments must therefore be talking out of their arse, even if
they actually have as much or more experience in type. There is a lot
of personal preference at work here. ALL gliders have positives and
negatives. If someone asks, they need to hear both sides.

Marc

Agreed, listen to them all critically. Both sides, everyone tends to love what
they own, warts and all, and it is common to generalse a personal dislike or
inability into a design fault in what we are unfamiliar or unsuccessful with.

It just irritates me hearing all these arguments that eventually come down to
this urge to dumb things down to the point where the skill and challenge
disappears.

Many gliders are currently beyond my capabilities. I look forward to changing
the part I have control over. I also know the newer designs have better
handling, but their prices are also beyond me.

As an aside, the only DG600 owner I know is extremely content with his, flies
his backside numb and takes pains to point out the superior finnish compared to
my Schempp product. Hope you enjoy yours as much.

--
Bruce Greeff
Std Cirrus #57
I'm no-T at the address above.