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FAR:Safety Pilot & High Performance/Complex?



 
 
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  #1  
Old August 7th 03, 04:25 PM
Jim
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Default FAR:Safety Pilot & High Performance/Complex?

It is my understanding (always subject to correction) that as a safety pilot
you may log PIC time because you are indeed a required crew member for the
operation. However, to log PIC time you also must be qualified to act as
PIC of that particular aircraft.
--
Jim Burns III

Remove "nospam" to reply


"FryGuy" wrote in message
1...
I have a couple of questions that are unclear to me regarding being a
safety pilot and operating high performance and/or complex aircraft. I've
tried looking these up in the 2003 FAR but I wasn't able to find a good
answer to my questions. If you could give me the reference in the FAR if
there is one I would appreciate it. Here they a

1) I have a friend who needs to go practice some IFR approaches to stay
current. I am a private pilot ASEL. I'm pretty sure that it is not a
problem with me being his safety pilot but he told me I can log the time
PIC. Is this correct?

2) What are the requirements for complex and high performance aircraft? I
thought that an endorsement was required for planes with retractable gear
and a adjustable prop and another for planes with a greater than 200
horsepower engine. In my log book I see an endorsement line for the HP
(there isn't a FAR reference though) but not for the complex. I looked up
"complex" in the FAR and could not find anything regarding this.

3) Ok, now the combination of the two. Lets say I do need an endorsment
for the complex/HP aircraft. Can I log time as the safety pilot in this
plane if I haven't yet gotten the endorsment for complex/HP? 91.109.b.2
says the safety pilot just needs to be a private pilot with the

appropriate
category and class ratings.

Thanks for the information!

Jeff Frey



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  #2  
Old August 7th 03, 05:56 PM
John T
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Default

"Jim" wrote in message
news

However, to log PIC time you also
must be qualified to act as PIC of that particular aircraft.


It is not required that you be qualified to be PIC of a particular aircraft,
only the category and class of the aircraft. As an example, if you don't
have a high performance endorsement, you will be hard pressed to find an FBO
to rent you a C182. However, you could still be a safety pilot in that
plane (and log PIC for the time actually spent as safety pilot) if you have
a PP-ASEL certificate.

--
John T
http://tknowlogy.com/tknoFlyer
__________



  #3  
Old August 7th 03, 06:06 PM
John T
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Default

"FryGuy" wrote in message
1

1) I am a private pilot ASEL. I'm pretty sure that it is
not a problem with me being his safety pilot but he told me I can log
the time PIC. Is this correct?


Yes, you may log the time actually spent as a safety pilot as PIC.

2) What are the requirements for complex and high performance
aircraft?


Separate endorsements are needed for high performance and complex airplanes.

14 CFR 61.31
(e) Additional training required for operating complex airplanes. (1) Except
as provided in paragraph (e)(2) of this section, no person may act as pilot
in command of a complex airplane (an airplane that has a retractable landing
gear, flaps, and a controllable pitch propeller; or, in the case of a
seaplane, flaps and a controllable pitch propeller)...
(f) Additional training required for operating high-performance airplanes.
(1) Except as provided in paragraph (f)(2) of this section, no person may
act as pilot in command of a high-performance airplane (an airplane with an
engine of more than 200 horsepower)...

3) Can I log time as the safety
pilot in this plane if I haven't yet gotten the endorsment for
complex/HP? 91.109.b.2 says the safety pilot just needs to be a
private pilot with the appropriate category and class ratings.


You've answered your own question. The safety pilot needs to be rated
in the category and class of the aircraft.

--
John T
http://tknowlogy.com/tknoFlyer
__________



  #4  
Old August 7th 03, 06:10 PM
John T
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Default

"John T" wrote in message
ws.com

3) Can I log time as the safety
pilot in this plane if I haven't yet gotten the endorsment for
complex/HP? 91.109.b.2 says the safety pilot just needs to be a
private pilot with the appropriate category and class ratings.


You've answered your own question. The safety pilot needs to be
rated in the category and class of the aircraft.


Actually, now that I re-read the FAR sections I quoted (61.31), I think Jose
may be right. This sounds like a good question to fire off to the local
FSDO and/or AOPA.

--
John T
http://tknowlogy.com/tknoFlyer
__________



  #5  
Old August 7th 03, 06:28 PM
john smith
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Default

FryGuy wrote:

I have a couple of questions that are unclear to me regarding being a
safety pilot and operating high performance and/or complex aircraft. I've
tried looking these up in the 2003 FAR but I wasn't able to find a good
answer to my questions. If you could give me the reference in the FAR if
there is one I would appreciate it. Here they a

1) I have a friend who needs to go practice some IFR approaches to stay
current. I am a private pilot ASEL. I'm pretty sure that it is not a
problem with me being his safety pilot but he told me I can log the time
PIC. Is this correct?


Cannot log PIC but can log Second in command.

2) What are the requirements for complex and high performance aircraft? I
thought that an endorsement was required for planes with retractable gear
and a adjustable prop and another for planes with a greater than 200
horsepower engine. In my log book I see an endorsement line for the HP
(there isn't a FAR reference though) but not for the complex. I looked up
"complex" in the FAR and could not find anything regarding this.


Depends on the owner's insurance company's requirements for that
particular aircraft.

3) Ok, now the combination of the two. Lets say I do need an endorsment
for the complex/HP aircraft. Can I log time as the safety pilot in this
plane if I haven't yet gotten the endorsment for complex/HP? 91.109.b.2
says the safety pilot just needs to be a private pilot with the appropriate
category and class ratings.


Airplane, single engine land. What does your certificate say? Does it
say high-performance or complex?
  #6  
Old August 7th 03, 06:38 PM
Jim
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I "think" John Lynch's take on the question is that you must have the
appropriate endorsements to log PIC when acting as safety pilot. If the
safety pilot does not act as the legal PIC he/she does not need the proper
endorsements, however they may not log the safety pilot time as PIC. New
question: Is there ever a case when you can log PIC time when you aren't
both properly rated and endorsed?


QUESTION: According to 91.109(b), a safety pilot must possess at
least a private certificate with appropriate category & class ratings. Is
it necessary for that safety pilot to be "current" in the aircraft
(landings, etc.)? Requirements of 61.55 specifically exempt safety pilots
[ 61.55(d)(4)], but where are the safety pilot criteria actually spelled
out. Section 61.57 refers to pilot-in-command requirements, but a safety
pilot is not PIC, only a required crew member. Further, has there ever been
an interpretation that the safety pilot must be Instrument Rated for that
type of VFR operation?



ANSWER: Ref. 61.31(d)(1); 61.51(e)(1)(iii), 61.51(f)(2),
61.3(c); 61.56(c), 61.57(c); A safety pilot is a "required crewmember"
and must hold at least a valid private pilot certificate with category and
class ratings appropriate to the aircraft being flown per 91.109(b) and a
valid medical certificate per 61.3(c). A valid pilot certificate is one
which has not been revoked or under suspension.



That person who is serving as a safety pilot may choose to act as the legal
pilot-in-command (per 14 CFR part 1) and log the time as PIC [per
61.51(e)(1)(iii)], or otherwise log the time as SIC time [per
61.51(f)(2)], but is not even required to log the time at all. However, the
safety pilot's name must be logged by the person practicing instrument
flight [per 61.51(g)(3)(ii)]. If the safety pilot is going to act as the
legal PIC for the flight that person must ". . . Hold the appropriate
category, class, and type rating (if a class rating and type rating are
required) for the aircraft to be flown;" [per 61.31(d)(1)]. ). And if
the flight is conducted in a high performance, complex, tail wheel, etc.
aircraft and the safety pilot is acting as the legal PIC that pilot must
have the appropriate endorsements that are required by 61.31(e), (f)
and/or (i), as appropriate. This could be a reason why a safety pilot might
only be able to serve as an SIC and log it as SIC time.



And assuming the operation is a simulated instrument flight (as in the case
the flight is performed in VMC conditions under VFR), the safety pilot would
not need to hold an instrument rating. If any portion of the flight were
conducted on an IFR flight plan (e.g., in and out of the clouds and/or even
on an IFR flight plan) at least one of the pilots must have an instrument
rating and the 1.1 PIC must be instrument current in accordance with
61.57(c) and be Flight Review current in accordance with 61.56(c).



"John T" wrote in message
ws.com...
"Jim" wrote in message
news

However, to log PIC time you also
must be qualified to act as PIC of that particular aircraft.


It is not required that you be qualified to be PIC of a particular

aircraft,
only the category and class of the aircraft. As an example, if you don't
have a high performance endorsement, you will be hard pressed to find an

FBO
to rent you a C182. However, you could still be a safety pilot in that
plane (and log PIC for the time actually spent as safety pilot) if you

have
a PP-ASEL certificate.

--
John T
http://tknowlogy.com/tknoFlyer
__________





  #7  
Old August 7th 03, 06:53 PM
Jim
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Default

Bingo. Nice job Todd.
--
Jim Burns III

Remove "nospam" to reply

"Todd Pattist" wrote in message
...
Robert Moore wrote:

"John T" wrote
Actually, now that I re-read the FAR sections I quoted (61.31),
I think Jose may be right. This sounds like a good question to
fire off to the local FSDO and/or AOPA.


Yes John, you were incorrect, and we have beat this subject
to death at least three times during the past six months.


Actually, John T was wrong with both his answers. The first
time he answered the wrong question and got it wrong. The
second time he answered the same wrong question and got it
right, but it's still not the correct answer to the original
third question that was asked. The correct answer to the
original third question is "yes."

The question that was asked was:

"3) Ok, now the combination of the two. Lets say I do need
an endorsment for the complex/HP aircraft. Can I log time
as the safety pilot in this plane if I haven't yet gotten
the endorsement for complex/HP? 91.109.b.2 says the safety
pilot just needs to be a private pilot with the appropriate
category and class ratings."

The answer is yes, he can log the time as "safety pilot"
provided he has the appropriate category and class ratings.
The time should be logged as SIC (Second in Command) time
because the applicable regulations require two pilots. SIC
time is not useful for much, but it is recognized in the
FAR's. As the other posts point out, it cannot be logged as
PIC time, but that isn't the question that was asked (even
though it's likely that was the question that he *meant* to
ask :-)

Todd Pattist
(Remove DONTSPAMME from address to email reply.)
___
Make a commitment to learn something from every flight.
Share what you learn.



  #8  
Old August 7th 03, 08:29 PM
John T
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Posts: n/a
Default

"FryGuy" wrote in message
1

1) I'm pretty sure that it is
not a problem with me being his safety pilot but he told me I can log
the time PIC. Is this correct?

3) Ok, now the combination of the two. Lets say I do need an
endorsment for the complex/HP aircraft. Can I log time as the safety
pilot in this plane if I haven't yet gotten the endorsment for
complex/HP?


According to AOPA:
quote
We have a letter of interpretation from the FAA on this topic. According to
the letter, a safety pilot who does not have a complex or high-performance
endorsement can act as such, assuming they are appropriately rated in the
aircraft (ASEL, etc). However, because they do not have the appropriate
endorsement, they cannot act as PIC. This means the safety pilot would have
to log SIC for the flight.
/quote

--
John T
http://tknowlogy.com/tknoFlyer
__________



  #9  
Old August 7th 03, 08:39 PM
John T
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Default

"Jim" wrote in message


I "think" John Lynch's take on the question is that you must have the
appropriate endorsements to log PIC when acting as safety pilot. If
the safety pilot does not act as the legal PIC he/she does not need
the proper endorsements, however they may not log the safety pilot
time as PIC.


Yeah, I already posted a retraction on my first answer. SIC would be
allowed under these circumstances, though.

--
John T
http://tknowlogy.com/tknoFlyer
__________



  #10  
Old August 7th 03, 08:47 PM
John T
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Default

"john smith" wrote in message


Airplane, single engine land. What does your certificate say? Does it
say high-performance or complex?


Would the certificate ever say "high-performance" or "complex"? Or would
that be just the logbook?

--
John T
http://tknowlogy.com/tknoFlyer
__________



 




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