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#131
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The Swedish Model: How to build a jet fighter.
"Dave Kearton" wrote...
Maybe he can mop up all enemy resistance. Maybe he's really thinking of a fighter "sweep"? Hmmmm, how long before someone pans that ? Pan Pan! Imminent pun failure! |
#132
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The Swedish Model: How to build a jet fighter.
"WaltBJ" wrote...
Roll rate: 720 degrees per second - what a head-bouncer! We could get the Zipper to roll a but faster by stomping on teh rudder to yaw it - the A-model's manual rudder took a good hard stomp, though. When I was an A-4 instructor, I was amazed at the number of pilots who thought full stick deflection in the A-4 gave you that 720 deg/sec rate (I suspect it was more like 3/4 that). Many of them were even MORE amazed when I showed them what happened when you stomp the rudder as well to get the REAL max rate... |
#133
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The Swedish Model: How to build a jet fighter.
"Douglas Eagleson" wrote:
A spiral or corkscrew as a maneuver allows an escape. You need elevator deflection, while entering the simple aileron roll, as a rule to cause the high angle of attack necessary to slow the aircraft and corkscrew breakoff to the anywhere direction. Hmmm... Sounds REMOTELY like a high-G barrel roll that can be used ONLY as a last-ditch maneuver against a close-in gun attack... OTOH, if the bullets aren't already flying, you haven't escaped ANYTHING -- you've just ****ed away your energy and allowed the attacker to shoot you when you stop maneuvering (which you WILL do, else you'll soon hit the ground out of control). There is nothing about this maneuver, BTW, that favors a canard airplane... High angle of attack roll rate is critical to either following the target or breaking off. So is timing... Again, the maneuver you describe has limited use in ONE situation. Matching the target is advised and it is as follows. "Matching the target"?!? If you are doing anything like that, you ARE the target!!! If you are NOT the target at the start, you certainly will be at the end! 1. elevator deflect and roll positive g. 2. As 180 degree roll is passed a person needs to do a single elevator motion. And if you get it wrong the maneuver turns into a dive. 3. SO push on the elevator to mAKE THE FORWARD CORCKSCREW POSSIBLE. Now you make it sound like a Lomcevak(sp?) (except you forgot the rudder input), which is NOT a useful tactical maneuver! So it is a hard thing to get the hang of and it has negative gs. A special modification was to aerodynamics. What can be changed. A dive as arule is always sort of expected. SO a vertical exit from the corkscrew appear the false exit. A fake exit is possible aerodynamically. A simple vertical followed by a return to the corkscrew really making it impossible to follow. Indeed, a dive is always "expected" after a pilot ****es away all his kinetic energy... An attacker would not WANT to follow such a ridiculous maneuver! As pointed out by another REAL pilot, the attacker only needs to lag up high and keep sight, and shoot you when you emerge from the folly! ALWAYS lossing the trailing aircraft. More like "never" than "ALWAYS"! |
#134
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The Swedish Model: How to build a jet fighter.
"Douglas Eagleson" wrote:
A basic thing to remember a. A simple test again who knows the answer? What maneuver can attach to the wing of the trailing opponent and deflect the ailerons? The question is nonsense, so it is unanswerable. A certain supesonic maneuver will generate a class of wake that will always attack the trailing aircrafts ability to maintian control. ANY time a trailing aircraft crosses the wake vortex, full control will momentarily be overridden by the vortex! Nothing new here, and nothing unrecoverable! A canard aircraft will always appear to fall out of the sky, btw. It will stall the front first. Flying into a sonic front as a rule was always to worry the pilot because some people can intentionally form a special wake front for you. More utter nonsense! |
#135
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The Swedish Model: How to build a jet fighter.
JR Weiss wrote:
"Dave Kearton" wrote... Maybe he can mop up all enemy resistance. Maybe he's really thinking of a fighter "sweep"? Hmmmm, how long before someone pans that ? Pan Pan! Imminent pun failure! It's too fine a May day for such things. Dan, U.S. Air Force, retired |
#136
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The Swedish Model: How to build a jet fighter.
On Fri, 30 May 2008 11:17:12 -0700, "JR Weiss"
wrote: "Douglas Eagleson" wrote: A spiral or corkscrew as a maneuver allows an escape. You need elevator deflection, while entering the simple aileron roll, as a rule to cause the high angle of attack necessary to slow the aircraft and corkscrew breakoff to the anywhere direction. Hmmm... Sounds REMOTELY like a high-G barrel roll that can be used ONLY as a last-ditch maneuver against a close-in gun attack... OTOH, if the bullets aren't already flying, you haven't escaped ANYTHING -- you've just ****ed away your energy and allowed the attacker to shoot you when you stop maneuvering (which you WILL do, else you'll soon hit the ground out of control). There is nothing about this maneuver, BTW, that favors a canard airplane... Been there, done that, in front of a MiG-17 who WAS firing from about 500 feet behind me. In an F-105D, at the western end of Phantom Ridge where it spills out into the Red River Delta, starting the maneuver at about 800 feet AGL. Worked as advertized, but wouldn't like to have been there more than once in a lifetime! Wasted way too many heartbeats. All was as you say, Sensei. Ed Rasimus Fighter Pilot (USAF-Ret) "When Thunder Rolled" "Palace Cobra" www.thunderchief.org |
#137
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The Swedish Model: How to build a jet fighter.
On Fri, 30 May 2008 19:43:04 GMT, Ed Rasimus
wrote: Been there, done that, in front of a MiG-17 who WAS firing from about 500 feet behind me. In an F-105D, at the western end of Phantom Ridge where it spills out into the Red River Delta, starting the maneuver at about 800 feet AGL. Worked as advertized, but wouldn't like to have been there more than once in a lifetime! Wasted way too many heartbeats. It is my understanding that the thud was the fastest plane in the world at low altitude, while the 104 was faster at high altitude. Nice if you plan to run away, although there is never enough fuel to do the supersonic bit for long. Casady |
#138
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The Swedish Model: How to build a jet fighter.
"Ed Rasimus" wrote...
Hmmm... Sounds REMOTELY like a high-G barrel roll that can be used ONLY as a last-ditch maneuver against a close-in gun attack... OTOH, if the bullets aren't already flying, you haven't escaped ANYTHING -- you've just ****ed away your energy and allowed the attacker to shoot you when you stop maneuvering (which you WILL do, else you'll soon hit the ground out of control). Been there, done that, in front of a MiG-17 who WAS firing from about 500 feet behind me. In an F-105D, at the western end of Phantom Ridge where it spills out into the Red River Delta, starting the maneuver at about 800 feet AGL. Worked as advertized, but wouldn't like to have been there more than once in a lifetime! Wasted way too many heartbeats. All was as you say, Sensei. I'm honored! |
#140
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The Swedish Model: How to build a jet fighter.
On May 31, 8:53 am, Ed Rasimus wrote:
On Fri, 30 May 2008 22:37:46 GMT, (Richard Casady) wrote: On Fri, 30 May 2008 19:43:04 GMT, Ed Rasimus wrote: Been there, done that, in front of a MiG-17 who WAS firing from about 500 feet behind me. In an F-105D, at the western end of Phantom Ridge where it spills out into the Red River Delta, starting the maneuver at about 800 feet AGL. Worked as advertized, but wouldn't like to have been there more than once in a lifetime! Wasted way too many heartbeats. It is my understanding that the thud was the fastest plane in the world at low altitude, while the 104 was faster at high altitude. Nice if you plan to run away, although there is never enough fuel to do the supersonic bit for long. Casady Your understanding was correct. It didn't really take A/B to get going really quickly on the deck. We often came down the last fifty miles to a target at 540 indicated with a full load of eight 750 pound bombs and did nuclear deliveries on the range with a 600 KIAS run-in, all without burner. You could get supersonic quite easily with a short blast of burner and it didn't take long to get clear of anything. Ed Rasimus Fighter Pilot (USAF-Ret) "When Thunder Rolled" "Palace Cobra"www.thunderchief.org Just imagine though what life would have been like though for the Navy Spad pilots tasked with throwing some instant sunshine over their shoulder. |
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