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World Class: Recent Great News



 
 
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  #21  
Old March 11th 04, 04:13 AM
Eric Greenwell
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Tom Claffey wrote:

There are probably 5 times as many ASH25's in the world as PW5's so
the Piwi has proven to be a failure by the lack of buyers, even clubs
who bought them initially have sold them.
Tom Claffey


I really don't have dog in this fight, but wouldn't that be over 1000
ASH 25s? I'm thinking that's WAYYYY more than were produced! I mean,
there were "only" about 1000 ASW 20s produced, and I sure see a lot more
of those than 25s.
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Eric Greenwell
Washington State
USA

  #22  
Old March 11th 04, 06:00 AM
Mark James Boyd
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In article ,
Tom Claffey wrote:
Mark,
These light gliders are a good idea, however the whole concept is for
a one design class so that Pilot performance only counts. The
Sparrowhawk and Russia are interesting gliders but are NOT the World
Class glider, the PW5 is. As someone who has flown one at above World
record performance [undeclared] on my one flight in it [and my Wife
achieved 4 World Records next day on a below average, blue Nevada
day]I agree the Piwi is not suitable for the reasons Ben says. He is
also correct in his comments on gaggles in heavy Standard class
gliders verses light gliders.
To get a true one design comp going we need 40:1 + performance


One wonders how the 505 works out in sailing...

I know Fossett didn't cross the Atlantic in record
time in a 505, but that doesn't convince me it is a worthless
class...it convinces me Fossett is rich...

Yes I'm aware the PW-5 is the current World Class glider.
I'm interested in what the next one will be...
--

------------+
Mark Boyd
Avenal, California, USA
  #23  
Old March 11th 04, 06:03 AM
Mark James Boyd
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In article ,
Eric Greenwell wrote:
Ben Flewett wrote:

Taking that argument to it's logical conclusion we
should nominate a hang-glider as the new World Class
glider.

The World Class was never supposed to be an entry level
glider - it was supposed to be a glider that anyone
and everyone could and WOULD want to compete in. The
idea was to have a GLIDER we could all compete in -
not a paper dart.


Some revisionist history going on he I was on SSA Board of Directors
when the World Class was proposed, and these NEVER were the goals. NO
ONE, at the time, espoused the idea that everyone, or even a large
minority, would want to fly the World Class Glider.
--
-----
change "netto" to "net" to email me directly

Eric Greenwell
Washington State
USA


Perhaps the goals included a glider which, like the
505 dinghy, could be (relatively) cheaply acquired and
sailed competitively by sailors of all levels
(especially entry-level) as opposed to an America's Cup
racer...

--

------------+
Mark Boyd
Avenal, California, USA
  #24  
Old March 11th 04, 06:28 AM
tango4
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With the demise and DG's aquisition of LS perhaps Herr Weber could be
persuaded to donate the LS4 manufacturing rights to the IGC. He has already
stated that the LS4 will not be part of the ongoing stable at DG. When an
existing design was suggested at the time of the design competition there
was opposition because those already owning the type would be at some
advantage. This would now be offset by the fact that the owners of LS4 are
currently in an aircraft 'without a manufacturer', surely this affects
peoples decisions to buy used LS4's.

Could LS4's be produced to a world class price? I doubt it but they might
come close if produced in China and Eastern Europe. Perhaps supplied
unpainted or almost ready to fly. Instruments not fitted etc.

The one design idea is supported by almost everyone who comments on the WC
subject. The price does not actually appear to be the right selection tool!
Almost everyone wants an honest 1:40 cross country capable class. The LS4
could deliver that in a very capable manner.

Ian
( Not an LS4 owner - but I used to be and loved the ship! )





  #25  
Old March 11th 04, 10:27 AM
Ben Flewett
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Yes, winter is getting to me.

Even if there was a $100k prize I still wouldn't starting
flying PW5s.

And I note, with amusement, that you are selling your
Hyundai.



At 21:18 10 March 2004, Going Fer It wrote:
Ben - winter getting to you dear Boy......


Of course we could make the World Class the competition
that hotshots
want to fly.

...
...
...
...

Make the International winner $100,000 richer and I
suspect you wont
have any complaints from top guns wanting to earn a
bit of extra coin
:-)

Who gives a toss about what they look like, topguns
will then say its
the $100K they will earn that will make them want to
compete.

BMW owners will always look down their noses at Hyundai
owners........




Ben Flewett wrote in message news:...
All valid points but....

You get what you pay for and nobody wants to buy a
PW5 because they are overpriced rubbish. That is
why
the World Class concept has failed in it's current
format.

I am a great fan of the World Class concept and will
happily sell my D2 and buy a World Class glider.
But
I am not spending $20,000 on a glider that goes no
better than the $4000 K6 I owned when I was an 18
year
old student - especially as it would mean I couldn't
fly against a large number of top pilots as I can
in
the D2.




At 20:54 09 March 2004, G.Kurek wrote:
I'm not a big fan of a flying sperm cell either, but
you can forget
that Discus or LS4 will ever become a world class.
One of the major
requirement for that class is: can you produce NEW,
laminate, low cost
glider that will be widely accessible to everyone
that
wants to fly?
NOT, can you buy a 30 year old LS3 at the similar
price
or if you can
buy new Discus for $70,000, making gliding even less
accessible for
regular folk. Now take a wild guess dont you see any
LS4, or Discus in
majority, if not all American clubs? Is it because
Pewee is better? Or
is it because Pewee is cheaper to aquire and operate?
If that wasn't
the requirement Poles would probably propose Jantar.





  #26  
Old March 11th 04, 10:47 AM
Ben Flewett
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Mark,

So am I! That's my whole point! I would like to see
the World Class concept take off but we need a better
glider as the PW5 is too many steps backwards (over
40 years) for most pilots to accept.

You talk about the Sparrowhawk or AC4 as candidates
for the next World class glider. I haven't flown either
of these (and never will). But why would you change
the PW5 for some other piece of rubbish when history
has shown that pilots will not accept such a regression
in performance? In fact, why bother making the change
at all - it's just a giant leap sideways.

The LS4 or Discus 1 would be ideal in my opinion.

Ben.


At 06:06 11 March 2004, Mark James Boyd wrote:
Yes I'm aware the PW-5 is the current World Class glider.
I'm interested in what the next one will be...
--

------------+
Mark Boyd
Avenal, California, USA




  #27  
Old March 11th 04, 10:55 AM
Ben Flewett
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Larry,

I am not 'hurling vitriol' at the PW5 design. If people
want to fly PW5s then good for them - it's none of
my business.

I am simply pointing out the the World Class concept
has failed because we have selected the PW5. It would
be nice if thousands of budding glider pilots stepped
forward and started flying PW5s but it has not happened.
Fact.

I believe the World Class concept could be great for
our sport but we need to select a better glider that
pilots will WANT to fly on mass.

Ben.



At 01:42 11 March 2004, Larry Pardue wrote:

'Ben Flewett' wrote in message
...
All valid points but....

You get what you pay for and nobody wants to buy a
PW5 because they are overpriced rubbish. That is
why
the World Class concept has failed in it's current
format.


I am biased as a PW-5 owner but am at a complete loss
to understand why so
much vitriol is hurled at the design. Everyone makes
their choices and pays
their money and that is fine. It would just never
occur to me to denigrate
all the designs I did not choose and believe me they
all have their
drawbacks.

I could say:

I would never buy a motorglider. You pay all that
money and get an
unreliable smoky engine where the new prop bearings
may seize and that
sounds like a lawnmower and that can't fly with any
kind of reasonably low
wingloading. Also you don't deserve any records you
set or contests you win
because of the motor advantage.

I wouldn't buy any of those modern, expensive German
gliders. They are
finished with junk that is easy to apply and smooth
but that disintegrates
in a few years requiring a refinishing that cost as
much as a used glider.
This is not to mention the spar shrinkage that may
happen in just a year or
so of southwest US heat. Then of course I will have
to replace it in 5
years to stay competitive.

I wouldn't buy any cheap Eastern European open class
glider. How would you
ever find the help to do that heavy rigging and it
is not competitive in any
class except maybe Sports.

I wouldn't buy any 2nd or 3rd generation back 15 meter
or standard class
ship. What classes are they competitive in now? Either
none or maybe
Sports Class if you are lucky. Yeh, I guess you can
fly with your buddies
if that interests you. Hard to get better if you are
trying to fly with,
instead of faster, than your buddies.

I could say all that and parts of it would be true.
Why would I want to?
I'm not offended when people make other choices, I
just enjoy the beauty and
technology of the gliders they purchase.

So there you have it. The 1-26 was and is a successful
one-design class, in
the US only. The low performance can be a disadvantage
in some areas and it
can not use a compact trailer. The PW-5 has the advantage
of more modern
materials and more performance and of being an international
class. The big
idea is it is a one-design class, not that it should
compete with the LS-4.
A side advantage is that it is inexpensive. What new
glider is cheaper?
Not fair to compare to used gliders. It is far from
being the prettiest
glider out there and I sure do appreciate the beauty
of an ASW-28, but I can
live with that for the advantages it does have. The
class hasn't grown as
fast as hoped, but it seems to be doing about as well
as Open Class (or
Standard last year) and I don't hear a lot of uproar
again that class.

My B1 model has a polyurethane finish that I expect
to last for a long long
time. It has automatic hookups. It seems as well
built as any recent
German glider I have seen. It does not have any indication
of spar
shrinkage, after some hot summers. It is extremely
easy to handle on the
ground and to rig and derig. It is and will remain,
as long as the class
endures, a cutting edge glider in the World Class and,
at least for now,
Sports Class, all without messing with the considerable
hassles of water
ballast. This means I don't have to replace it every
few years.

I am very happy with the glider and hope everyone else
is happy with their
choices.

Larry Pardue 2I

Shaking in my boots about competing against John Byrd
on an EQUAL BASIS this
summer.






  #29  
Old March 11th 04, 02:34 PM
cernauta
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"tango4" wrote:

With the demise and DG's aquisition of LS perhaps Herr Weber could be
persuaded to donate the LS4 manufacturing rights to the IGC.


Could LS4's be produced to a world class price? I doubt it but they might
come close if produced in China and Eastern Europe. Perhaps supplied
unpainted or almost ready to fly. Instruments not fitted etc.


That's a very interesting idea, if Herr Weber would be so generous we
would all have to be grateful to him for a long time.
And I think it would open a huge market for DG, in the sale of spare
parts. If the "World LS4 Class" is to be successful, a relevant
minority of pilots might prefer parts coming from a certified and
long-established manufacturer.

Aldo Cernezzi
  #30  
Old March 11th 04, 03:07 PM
Eric Greenwell
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Mark James Boyd wrote:

In article ,
Eric Greenwell wrote:

Ben Flewett wrote:


Taking that argument to it's logical conclusion we
should nominate a hang-glider as the new World Class
glider.

The World Class was never supposed to be an entry level
glider - it was supposed to be a glider that anyone
and everyone could and WOULD want to compete in. The
idea was to have a GLIDER we could all compete in -
not a paper dart.


Some revisionist history going on he I was on SSA Board of Directors
when the World Class was proposed, and these NEVER were the goals. NO
ONE, at the time, espoused the idea that everyone, or even a large
minority, would want to fly the World Class Glider.
--


Perhaps the goals included a glider which, like the
505 dinghy, could be (relatively) cheaply acquired and
sailed competitively by sailors of all levels
(especially entry-level) as opposed to an America's Cup
racer...


Here is the history page of the World Class Soaring Association. The
goals they outline there match what I remember when the idea was
proposed and moved to reality.

http://www.wcsa.org/history.htm
World Class Soaring Association
--
-----
change "netto" to "net" to email me directly

Eric Greenwell
Washington State
USA

 




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