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Canadian holding procedures



 
 
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  #1  
Old July 6th 04, 09:17 PM
Derrick Early
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Default Canadian holding procedures

What are the holding procedures in Canada? On the approach plates, they say
something like "Climb to 1900 on track of 297 deg. LEFT turn to 2T NDB."
However, they don't show any holding pattern. Do they expect you to enter a
hold at the beckon? What radial do you use?


  #2  
Old July 7th 04, 01:54 AM
Defly
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What are the holding procedures in Canada? On the approach plates, they say
something like "Climb to 1900 on track of 297 deg. LEFT turn to 2T NDB."
However, they don't show any holding pattern. Do they expect you to enter a
hold at the beckon? What radial do you use?


I'm guessing here, but based on what you've written it sounds like a missed
approach procedure and that the intent is that you'll climb to the altitude on
that heading then once at the altitude fly direct to the fix. My assumption
would be you'd hold on the heading you arrived on, right turns, or you'd get
further instruction from the controller. Another thought is that if the fix is
on the final approach course you'd hold on the approach heading outside the fix
and make the turns on the same side as the procedure turn.
  #3  
Old July 7th 04, 03:51 PM
gwengler
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I'm guessing here, ...

Guessing is probably one of the most dangerous things when flying IFR.
What makes you assume that there is a holding pattern if there is
none mentioned in the missed approach instructions? We don't have
holdings at a missed approach in Canada. You just go to your missed
approach fix as described in the missed approach instructions or per
special missed approach clearance received from ATC. As soon as you
are on the missed you talk to ATC who will clear you for another
approach or any other request (for example to go to another airport
which may or may not be your alternate). If you are in uncontrolled
airspace and unable to communicate with ATC you follow IFR procedures
as outlined in the Canadian A.I.P. Under no circumstances would you
start an un-authorized holding pattern.

Gerd Wengler, ATP
  #4  
Old July 7th 04, 06:09 PM
Defly
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I'm guessing here, ...


Guessing is probably one of the most dangerous things when flying IFR.
What makes you assume that there is a holding pattern if there is
none mentioned in the missed approach instructions? We don't have
holdings at a missed approach in Canada. You just go to your missed
approach fix as described in the missed approach instructions or per
special missed approach clearance received from ATC. As soon as you
are on the missed you talk to ATC who will clear you for another
approach or any other request (for example to go to another airport
which may or may not be your alternate). If you are in uncontrolled
airspace and unable to communicate with ATC you follow IFR procedures
as outlined in the Canadian A.I.P. Under no circumstances would you
start an un-authorized holding pattern.

Gerd Wengler, ATP


Thanks for the explanation. You'll notice I wasn't flying IFR when I was
guessing. I never guess when I'm flying IFR - only when I'm muddling around on
the message boards, and I never do anything unauthorized when I'm flying
  #5  
Old July 7th 04, 06:41 PM
Derrick Early
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Default

Thank you for providing a copy of Mr. Wengler's message. His message didn't make it to the news group. Now I understand. They don't have a holding pattern at the missed approach fix.

"Defly" wrote in message ...

I'm guessing here, ...


Guessing is probably one of the most dangerous things when flying IFR.
What makes you assume that there is a holding pattern if there is
none mentioned in the missed approach instructions? We don't have
holdings at a missed approach in Canada. You just go to your missed
approach fix as described in the missed approach instructions or per
special missed approach clearance received from ATC. As soon as you
are on the missed you talk to ATC who will clear you for another
approach or any other request (for example to go to another airport
which may or may not be your alternate). If you are in uncontrolled
airspace and unable to communicate with ATC you follow IFR procedures
as outlined in the Canadian A.I.P. Under no circumstances would you
start an un-authorized holding pattern.

Gerd Wengler, ATP


Thanks for the explanation. You'll notice I wasn't flying IFR when I was
guessing. I never guess when I'm flying IFR - only when I'm muddling around on
the message boards, and I never do anything unauthorized when I'm flying
  #6  
Old July 8th 04, 05:17 AM
Martin Kosina
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What makes you assume that there is a holding pattern if there is
none mentioned in the missed approach instructions? We don't have
holdings at a missed approach in Canada. You just go to your missed
approach fix as described in the missed approach instructions or per
special missed approach clearance received from ATC. As soon as you
are on the missed you talk to ATC who will clear you for another
approach or any other request (for example to go to another airport
which may or may not be your alternate). If you are in uncontrolled
airspace and unable to communicate with ATC you follow IFR procedures
as outlined in the Canadian A.I.P. Under no circumstances would you
start an un-authorized holding pattern.



OK, so what *are* all those right-turn holding patterns depicted at
each MAP in the "CAP Instrument Procedures" ? (I am looking
specifically at CAP-2, for example NDB/DME 16 at Nanaimo, but almost
all have it).

Thx,

Martin
  #7  
Old July 8th 04, 02:33 PM
gwengler
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OK, so what *are* all those right-turn holding patterns depicted at
each MAP in the "CAP Instrument Procedures" ? (I am looking
specifically at CAP-2, for example NDB/DME 16 at Nanaimo, but almost
all have it).


On this approach (NDB DME 16, Nanaimo, BC), there is no holding
pattern depicted at the MAP look closely. I don't know what you are
looking at but these holding patterns are rare. They are only found
in mountainous areas and are for shuttling procedures. Some are to
shuttle down for the approach and some are to shuttle up for a safe
altitude.
In this specific case you fly to ARMAC which is the IF. If you're too
high for example coming from the west (minimum safe altitude 7000)
you shuttle down to 2400 as per the holding pattern (thin line). Once
you're there you proceed normally as you would far a procdedure turn
(i.e. race track pattern). Inbound you can then descend to 2000.

Gerd Wengler, ATP
  #8  
Old July 9th 04, 09:19 AM
Martin Kosina
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OK, so what *are* all those right-turn holding patterns depicted at
each MAP in the "CAP Instrument Procedures" ? (I am looking
specifically at CAP-2, for example NDB/DME 16 at Nanaimo, but almost
all have it).


On this approach (NDB DME 16, Nanaimo, BC), there is no holding
pattern depicted at the MAP ? look closely.


Sorry, technically, "holding pattern" may be the wrong term. I meant
the racetrack course depicted NE of the NDB, 005 degrees outbound,
whatever that's called.

I don't know what you are looking at but these holding patterns are rare.
They are only found in mountainous areas and are for shuttling procedures.
Some are to shuttle down for the approach and some are to shuttle up for a
safe altitude.


There is one like it on almost every page of this book (CAP-2). Then
again, most of BC *is* mountainous, so maybe that's why...

In this specific case you fly to ARMAC which is the IF. If you're too
high for example coming from the west (minimum safe altitude 7000)
you shuttle down to 2400 as per the holding pattern (thin line). Once
you're there you proceed normally as you would far a procdedure turn
(i.e. race track pattern). Inbound you can then descend to 2000.


I see, the "shuttle" is used to descend or climb from/to the enroute
structure. Makes sense. So an approach clearance automatically implies
authorization to commence the descend "shuttle", as depicted... right
? What about the case when the shuttle is not needed (i.e. you are
already close to the PT outbound segment altitude), are you free to
skip and just proceed outbound ?

Also, on a missed approach, what exactly is the clearance limit if one
does not land (you said there is no such thing as holding there,
unless specified) ? The descriptions always end on something like "...
climbing turn to XY NDB" but, with some exceptions, stop short of the
"...and hold" phraseology that we are so used to on U.S. IAPs. The
mantra here is that if you reach your clearance limit, you enter a
published hold, or a standard holding pattern.

I don't mean this as an argument, just surpised by the statement that
there is no such thing as default holding at the MAP in Canada, and
I'd like to understand this better. The concept of a clearance limit
is an important one in the US airspace system and we are taught to pay
close attention to it, that's why the curiosity :-)

Thanks !

Martin
  #9  
Old July 9th 04, 04:15 PM
Icebound
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"Martin Kosina" wrote in message
om...

Also, on a missed approach, what exactly is the clearance limit if one
does not land (you said there is no such thing as holding there,
unless specified) ? The descriptions always end on something like "...
climbing turn to XY NDB" but, with some exceptions, stop short of the
"...and hold" phraseology that we are so used to on U.S. IAPs. The
mantra here is that if you reach your clearance limit, you enter a
published hold, or a standard holding pattern.



Leafing through a bunch of Canadian plates, I see that some DO specify
explicit holds (Terrace, Campbell River). These appear to be those where
the terrain prohibits a MAP that would put you into position for another
approach.

The MAPs that don't specify a hold... seem to (always?) put you in at
altitude and into a position suitable for a second approach.

Somebody needs to confirm whether that is on purpose so that you can begin
the second approach immediately??? (in the absence of instructions to the
contrary, of course)





 




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