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Avgas in France has reached $7.50/gal !

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Old April 23rd 05, 06:19 PM
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"Dylan Smith" wrote in message
In article , Chris wrote:
IFR is not a big issue in Europe for the private pilot. So expensive IFR
systems like WAAS and GPS enabled approaches are irrelevant. Its
that the much hailed Cirrus cannot fly IFR in much of European airspace
in the UK its just a VFR machine.

That's due to assinine regulations put out by our "beloved" CAA. That's
why Cirrus airplanes in Britain are all on the N-register. Indeed, if I
was interested in buying an IFR plane, regardless of what it was (even
if it was a Diamond) I'd have it on the N register to avoid the stupid,
pointless CAA regulations that *decrease* safety, not increase it.

But even a Cirrus on the N register is not legit, no DME, no ADF, no f*****g

Old April 23rd 05, 06:21 PM
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"Dave Stadt" wrote in message

"Chris" wrote in message

"Jay Honeck" wrote in message
news:[email protected]_s21...
Decimated since when? Post a reference statistic and time as a

Well, let's start with the fact that France's efforts at flight
our own. Is 1903-ish far enough back for you?

What taxes particularly are you referring to?

Avgas taxes. The price of avgas in France (as the subject of this

states) has now exceeded $7.50 per gallon, solely as a result of their
very aggressive tax policies.

Where does France get its processed petroleum products and what
make the cost of avgas what it is?

I presume that they get their petroleum from the same worldwide supply

the U.S. -- yet our avgas is "only" $3.30-ish per gallon.

You just pulled thos whole argument out of your ass, dear, and while
might make an interesting thesis for a classroom debate, you should

defending it unless you have a lot of facts to back up your

As opposed to your well-thought out, carefully crafted



The facts are clear. It is your unwillingness to accept them that is
puzzling. Why -- especially in an aviation forum -- are you (and
Martin, and a couple of other folks) defending a foreign tax system
more than DOUBLES the price of aviation? This makes no sense to me.

And why are people required to choose aviation as a pursuit based on

population of their country?

They're not. But based on the population of France, there should be

times more pilots -- ESPECIALLY given their proud heritage of flight.

I'm still waiting for an answer: If it's NOT the outrageous cost of

that has nearly killed general aviation in France, what is it? Why,
the land of Bleriot and Saint-Exupery, are there so (relatively) few
and women feeling the call to the skies, if NOT for price


The French are more culturally mature and have perhaps outgrown such
childish pursuits.

You forgot the :-). It was a joke wasn't it?

Does everything need to be spelt out is such detail. Of course it was a joke

Old April 23rd 05, 06:25 PM
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"Jay Honeck" wrote in message
news:[email protected]_s22...
Move to the city - then there'll be plenty of nearby kids. That will
always be a problem in a rural area. If you live in high-density housing
in a large city, there will always be random outdoor activities for
groups of kids.

We live in a city of 65,000, in a metropolitan area of over 120,000.

Cute expression - 65,000 equals a city. That's a town, not much more than a

120,000 a metropolitan area - that's just a big town.

What does it take to become a city in the US?

Old April 23rd 05, 06:37 PM
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"Jim" wrote in message ...
Jay Honeck wrote:

So, to summarize: Yes, there is fewer GA in Europe. But even if you
wipe all avgas taxes, there wouldn't be more.

You admit that predatory taxation has added 25% to the cost of GA in
(which is a gross under-estimation, BTW) -- and in the same breath say
it has NO impact on it?

That is the most absurd assertion I've seen in Usenet -- and I've seen
whoppers over the years.

Well let's go back to the premise of the post, that avgas costs $7.50 a
in France. Avgas in France would be priced in Euros, so somebody's
Euros to US dollars using the current conversion rate. That's
accurate, but doesn't tell the whole story. The dollar is very weak to
euro right now, which affects Americans buying European goods and
buying American goods, but doesn't affect Europeans buying domestic
products as
much. For example, if the price of the dollar versus euros fell tomorrow
1/2 of what it is today, it would appear that avgas would cost USD 15.00 a
gallon. This would appear to American to be much more expensive, but
would not
really change what avgas would cost to a French(wo)man in France.

European countries tend to tax consumption higher, the US doesn't. One
avgas is kept expensive is because autogas is very expensive to encourage
public transit and excellent high speed rail service. If avgas would be
lower then autogas, there would be an incentive to burn avgas on the road
(which wouldn't do cat converter much good.) Note that Jet-A is much
in Europe. This is another reason driving the diesel piston aviation
and several European companies are leading this technology.

Aviation gasoline will continue to get more expensive in the US, and
may not be available at any price. It can be found (in the US as of last
week) selling at $4.82/US Gallon so you can say that the US is working
hard to
catch up with France, and that's without all of those European taxes as
Avgas is a boutique fuel that must be specially handled and is produced
very limited quantities compared to other products, with a lot of
liability for
the slightest mishap. More and more corporate and other high consumption
aviation gas consumption has been shifted to aircraft that burn Jet A,
decreasing the economies of scale for 100ll. Also very importantly, it
contains a *lot* of tetraethyl lead (despite that LL designation), and
autogas was eventually banned by 1996 in the US for a good reason.

Surprisingly essence avec plomb (super) is still available in France,
it does cost more then sans plomb so it isn't purchased nearly as much. .

On the price of gasoline. In the UK 82% of the price of gasoline is made up
of taxes. Therefore when the cost of the raw material doubles in price the
impact on the final price of the gasoline autogas or avgas is much smaller
than in the US.

Added to the fact that oil is priced in dollars anyway, the deterioration in
the value of the dollar has mitigated to some extent the increase in the oil

The other fact is that TEL is made in the UK and guess what, the dollar's
decline has made that more expensive. So the cost of AVGAS in the US is
doubly hit. Whereas TEL costs in Europe have not changed.

Old April 23rd 05, 06:42 PM
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"Jay Honeck" wrote in message
news:[email protected]_s72...
Good Lord help us all! I suppose they will be made with China steel.
is the softest, inconsistent crap have ever seen, let alone all the other
made in China crap.

Now you've done it, Jim, you racist pig. How DARE you launch a wholesale
assault on another culture?


Hey, I wonder how many years (months?) it will be before GA in China
over-takes what's left of GA in France?

More to the point will be how quickly GA in China will overtake Ga in the US

Old April 23rd 05, 06:45 PM
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"Dave Stadt" wrote in message

"Morgans" wrote in message

"Jay Honeck" wrote

Sorry, Martin. Here's more bad news for Europe and Austria:

From AOPA's member news area:
"And with that, Dries dropped a bomb. Diamond, he said, is establishing

it calls the Diamond China Project, a new manufacturing facility that

be built "about 300 kilometers east of Beijing." Site construction

month ago, and it will be twice the size of Diamond's Austrian

facility -
and capable of employing 1,700 employees and building 600 aircraft a

Eventually, all propeller-driven Diamond aircraft will be built at the
Chinese plant, starting with DA40s. The first DA40 will roll out the
so-called "Aviation City" factory doors by year-end."

Good Lord help us all! I suppose they will be made with China steel.

is the softest, inconsistent crap have ever seen, let alone all the other
made in China crap.
Jim in NC

Get used to it, China is the up and coming manufacturing world power.
will do what Japan did in the '60s and '70s at a scale that will make what
Japan did look like childs play.

the 20th Century was the century of the US, the 21st will be that of China.
Get used to it.

Old April 23rd 05, 06:58 PM
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"George Patterson" wrote in message
news:[email protected]
Morgans wrote:

How many years will it be until China's quality comes up, like Japan

About -15.

The question is, how long will it take for Americans to aquire enough
information about Chinese manufacturers to make informed decisions about
their products? The Chinese don't seem to have made any effort to brand
their products.

Why should they. Go to china and see for yourself whets happening there. The
cars on the roads are all western brands made in China, mainly in Shanghai
with the support of the western car companies, Ford, GM, VW etc.
They are soaking up the technology as they have just done with Rover.
The rate of progress is geometric not linear.

With their currency pegged to the dollar they are doing OK and with foreign
reserves conservatively valued at $600bn its easy to see why they do not
want to float the RMB.

Currently the are the second biggest consumer of gasoline and they have not
started yet, they use about a third of all the worlds concrete and about a
quarter of all the worlds steel.

and they can only get better and better and anyone who knows the Chinese,
will know they have a work ethic miles stronger than anything in the west.

and they despise the Japanese.

Old April 23rd 05, 07:07 PM
Martin Hotze
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On Sat, 23 Apr 2005 18:42:53 +0100, Chris wrote:

More to the point will be how quickly GA in China will overtake Ga in the US

this will be a completely different GA then: flying presonal jets with high
tech equipment, not 20 or more years old spam cans with antique equipment.

Old April 23rd 05, 07:18 PM
Dave Stadt
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"Matt Barrow" wrote in message

"Morgans" wrote in message

"Dylan Smith" wrote in message
In article , Morgans wrote:
Good Lord help us all! I suppose they will be made with China

is the softest, inconsistent crap have ever seen, let alone all the

made in China crap.

Unlikely - Diamond's planes are made of plastic!

OHMYGOD!! They'll sneak it through the metal detectors!! :~)

I know you are kidding, but I am sure there are some VERY important

parts in the "plastic" airplane, too. ;-)

The relief tubes?

Matthew W. Barrow
Site-Fill Homes, LLC.
Montrose, CO

This just in..........Chrysler (or whatever name they are going by now days)
is openly discussing moving some manufacturing to China.


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