Gliders in the Grand Canyon

d&tm writes:

Is that a recent rule? I vividly remember my trip to the Grand Canyon in
1985 It was our honeymoon and I havent been able to get back since.
We took a 1 hour flight in a Twin Otter of Grand Canyon Airlines. It went
way down into canyon, and it was quite specatacular looking out the window
to see a rock wall.

The rules are post-1985. Today you cannot go below 14,500 feet MSL, except in
designated corridors, all of which have a minimum floor of 10,5000 feet MSL.

In other words, you can no longer go down into the canyon, except for take-off
and landing there.

Richard Riley writes:

There's an old Irish saying: 'If everybody says you're drunk, you'd
better sit down.'

Another saying is that the majority is not always right. However, there's no
majority here, only some posters who are far more active than others. Being
active doesn't make one right.

Where can a general aviation aircraft take off and land IN the Grand Canyon?

Mxsmanic wrote:


In other words, you can no longer go down into the canyon, except for take-off
and landing there.

Mxsmanic wrote:
Richard Riley writes:

There's an old Irish saying: 'If everybody says you're drunk, you'd
better sit down.'

Another saying is that the majority is not always right. However, there's no
majority here, only some posters who are far more active than others. Being
active doesn't make one right.

And we all know how important being right is to you.

--
Jim Pennino

Remove .spam.sux to reply.

d&tm, the "VFR CHART" depicting the rules of SFAR 50-2 was first printed on
4 April 1991.

I too took a great tour operated canyon flight in 1983.

The current charting depicts where GA VFR pilots can cross the canyon below
14,500MSL, normal crossing altitudes in those corridors follow standard VFR
navigation rules but limit altitudes to no lower than 10,500MSL. Any
crossings above 14,500 are not restricted.

There are designated "tour routes" for specific "tour operators" that follow
the path of the canyon, but 90% or more of those routes are maintained at or
above the "rim level" of the canyon. There are a few heliports down in the
canyon for specific uses in specific areas.

There are no charted airports "within the designated canyon protection
airspace" that I can readily see. Even Grand Canyon airport is outside of
the SFAR airspace. Flight areas restricted to 14,500 MSL are colored purple
(magenta) for easy recognition, other sections depicted within SFAR airspace
have the altitudes annotated, as in 8900MSL-SURFACE, in which case you can
cross that area at 9000MSL or higher with proper altitude for direction of
flight. Surface areas along the canyon rim are between 5000-7000MSL or
higher.

As for gliders down below the rim of the canyon? No sane glider pilot would
ever allow himself to get into that position. Having flown in Death Valley
in gliders, get too low, everything is hot, and there are not enough rising
air currents to get up and out of trouble.

Gliders do venture out "over" the Grand Canyon on a regular basis, venturing
there from the Phoenix or Prescott AZ area, and recently down from Parowan
UT and Zion Park areas to the North Rim and return.

Someone did set an altitude record climb in Death Valley many years ago for
his Diamond Badge. A very rare, 3 Diamonds in one flight, Departing Minden
NV for distance, forcing himself low in Death Valley to again climb high
enough for Diamond Altitude while remaining outside Class A airspace
(18,000MSL in USA) and returning to Minden NV. Diamond Distance, Diamond
Goal and Diamond Altitude.

BT

"d&tm" wrote in message
...


Is that a recent rule? I vividly remember my trip to the Grand Canyon in
1985 It was our honeymoon and I havent been able to get back since.
We took a 1 hour flight in a Twin Otter of Grand Canyon Airlines. It went
way down into canyon, and it was quite specatacular looking out the window
to see a rock wall. I will also never forget hearing on the news about
3 months later that one of these planes ( I never did find out if it was
the same one) had a midair with a helicopter killing all onboard.
Terry
PPL Downunder

On Jun 3, 8:59 am, Richard Riley wrote:
On Sat, 02 Jun 2007 15:05:06 +0200, Mxsmanic
wrote:

If there were no airspace restrictions, would it be possible/safe to fly
gliders in the Grand Canyon? There's not much of a place to land in the
canyon, of course, but I don't know if there are thermals or something (?)
that would allow a glider to climb back up out of the canyon after gliding
below the rim. Is it possible? Has anyone done it?

I know. I learned to fly in gliders and flew right seat many times in
a sight-seeing Twin Otter at the canyon.

I won't tell you. From what you've posted previously, you'd only use
my answer as a starting point to insult me, belittle my experience and
claim I don't know what I'm talking about.

OK then, if him asking the question bothers you so much, then how
about if I asked?

If there were no airspace restrictions, would it be possible/safe to
fly
gliders in the Grand Canyon? There's not much of a place to land in
the
canyon, of course, but I don't know if there are thermals or something
(?)
that would allow a glider to climb back up out of the canyon after
gliding
below the rim. Is it possible? Has anyone done it?

RomeoMike writes:

Where can a general aviation aircraft take off and land IN the Grand Canyon?

I count at least four airfields, plus Grand Canyon West and Grand Canyon
National Park airports (but these two aren't actually in the canyon).

Again, NAME one place "down into the canyon" where one can take off and
land a general aviation aircraft.

Mxsmanic wrote:
RomeoMike writes:

Where can a general aviation aircraft take off and land IN the Grand Canyon?

I count at least four airfields, plus Grand Canyon West and Grand Canyon
National Park airports (but these two aren't actually in the canyon).

On Jun 3, 5:16 pm, Mxsmanic wrote:
writes:
Since according to you MSFS acurately simulates everything including
wake turbulance and posters here are not believeable, why are you
asking instead of just using MSFS to answer the question?

Because I know very little about flying gliders, and trial and error is a slow
way to learn.

Do you know anything about gliders?

FFS hasn't this pillock learnt anything while he's been polluting the
group

RomeoMike writes:

Again, NAME one place "down into the canyon" where one can take off and
land a general aviation aircraft.

I should think that any real pilot would already have the references at hand,
but if you need help, here are four airports in the canyon:

Marble Canyon
Cliff Dweller's Lodge
Tuweep
Grand Canyon Bar Ten