BRS chutes. Why doesn't everyone use them?

On Sun, 23 Jan 2011 12:18:03 -0600, Jim Logajan
wrote:


A PowerFLARM costs ~US$1800 per plane and can prevent only midair collision
accidents - but presumably only if a large proportion of other aircraft
invest the same amount. How much does one's safety improve for that
investment?

A BRS costs ~US$3100 to ~US$4500 per plane and can can prevent injury or
death after midair collision accidents and in other situations. No other
aircraft need to invest in it to make it work for your aircraft. What
fraction of fatal accidents would a BRS have turned into non-fatal
accidents? How much does one's safety improve for that investment?

Close to NIL.

- A BRS can NOT be retrofitted to any existing gliders apart from the
few that were designed for it (which are, at the moment, only special
versions of Ventus 2 and Discus 2).

- Why let the accident (=collison) happen in the first place? FLARM
lowers the probability of a collision a lot, a BRS doesn't.

- A BRS is NOT going to save you from a low-level stall, nor a CFIT.

- NO BRS has ever been tested in an extreme situation (one wing or
tailplane gon, violent spin, high positive or negative g-loads).

- Read the limitations on current BRS systems (especially, read the
limitations for the Cirrus). Prepare to be amazed.


What is the scenario where a BRS is a reliable help?
At the moment, straight and level flight below Vne. Usually such a
condition means a controllable glider.
Ask yourself if you would deploy a BRS in such a situation.



A better solution than a BRS?
Soteira by Akaflieg Darmstadt - a rocket that pulles the pilot and his
parachute out of the glider. No speed limits, no g-load limits, low
probability to get tangled in a spinning glider. Zero-zero capability.



Cheers
Andreas

- NO BRS has ever been tested in an extreme situation (one wing or
tailplane gon, violent spin, high positive or negative g-loads).


Huh? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JrVxp_gyTcI

Tony

Originally Posted by Eric Greenwell[_4_]

On 1/21/2011 10:49 PM, Eric Greenwell wrote:
On 1/21/2011 4:35 PM, bildan wrote:

I'd like the NOAH idea better if it was available as a mere "butt
raiser" which lifts the pilots rump up and forward a few inches. I
think just a little lift would make a huge difference in ease of
egress. Raising the pilot in a reclining position, as the current
NOAH unit does, only works with canopy mounted panels.

And pedestal mounted panels like the DG single seaters, and swivel
panels like the Ventus uses. Maybe not good with a Nimbus 3 canopy
mounted to the cockpit sills, and similar panels. Maybe they have a
version with limited inflation - worth asking.

That should be "panel mounted to the cockpit sills", not "canopy".

I did consider the NOAH system years ago, but decided the need for it
was so unlikely, it wasn't worth the cost to install and maintain. I do
make sure I can get out of my glider easily under 1 G conditions by
pushing myself out of the cockpit after landing, wearing the parachute.

--
Eric Greenwell - Washington State, USA (change ".netto" to ".us" to
email me)

Has anyone here ever had to exit a glider in the air? Know anyone that has? It seems to me that a mid-air in a thermal or in the pattern is the biggest danger. And I just can't imagine getting out of a harness and out of a plane in the few seconds it would take if you broke a wing on another plane.

On Mon, 24 Jan 2011 01:36:45 +0100, Andreas Maurer
wrote:

A better solution than a BRS?
Soteira by Akaflieg Darmstadt - a rocket that pulles the pilot and his
parachute out of the glider. No speed limits, no g-load limits, low
probability to get tangled in a spinning glider. Zero-zero capability.


Andreas is a reliable source of rational opinions and solutions.
Here I just want to add a link to the Soteira system. Some partial
experiments have been successfully tested. If development goes on, it
might work safely from zero altitude and speed.
Please remember that up until now, a crash in a glider means that
most of the damage to the pilot is created by the mass of the glider
_behind the pilot_.

http://www.akaflieg.tu-darmstadt.de/...onsprinzip.php

aldo cernezzi

On 1/23/2011 6:32 PM, Sparkorama wrote:


Has anyone here ever had to exit a glider in the air?

Yes. (No collision involved; I believed it 'pitch-broken' though it probably
wasn't.)

Know anyone that has? It seems to me that a mid-air in a thermal or in the pattern is the
biggest danger. And I just can't imagine getting out of a harness and
out of a plane in the few seconds it would take if you broke a wing on
another plane.

Yes.

Dick Johnson...at least twice. 'Way back when' he bailed from an
overstressed/'exploding' Bowlus Baby Albatross while cu-nim soaring. In the
1960's he (low-altitude) bailed from a spinning Austria. SSA members can find
writeups of both events in "Soaring" magazine archives.

Dave Lawrence...overspeeded/flutter-destroyed the BRS-equipped Sparrowhawk
being tested at Mississippi State University. Saved via personal 'chute. Ditto
"Soaring" (and I believe "Aviation Week") writeup(s).

This arena is certainly rich for thought/discussion...with no universal
conclusions other than odds are that if you manage to extricate yourself from
an uncontrollable ship with*out* a 'chute, little long-term good will likely
result. Balance of risks would seem to apply...

Thoughtfully,
Bob W.

On Sun, 23 Jan 2011 20:31:50 -0500, Tony V
wrote:


- NO BRS has ever been tested in an extreme situation (one wing or
tailplane gon, violent spin, high positive or negative g-loads).


Huh? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JrVxp_gyTcI


Hey Tony,

we are talking about gliders, not ultralights!

There have been quite a few successful BRS recoveries indeed - but an
ultralight is a lot slower than any glider (BRS systems are usually
restricted to 150 kts which a tail- or wingless glider will quickly
exceed), smaller, and lighter, and unfortunately at least in Germany
there have been lots of attempted BRS activations in ultralight
aircraft (two seats, maximum takeoff weight about 900 lbs, cruise
speed between 100 and 140 kts) where the BRS didn't work - because it
hadn't been tested in that part of the flight envelope.

Sorry, but in aviation I don't trust such complex systems if they
haven't been thoroughly tested.

If you take a closer look the BRS in this case didn't work correctly
either - the lines got tangled in the tail, therefore the aircraft
impacted vertically. Fortunately the parachute of the BRS was
oversized, it opened and the structure was rigid enough to prevent the
engine to be crushed into the leg area of the cockpit - but it was a
close case.


Statistics clearly show that the problem is to leave the aircraft (be
it a glider or an F-16).

Why try to save the whole aircraft with a huge and complex parachute
(whose size causes a pretty narrow escape envelope) with the need to
handle impact forces and masses behind the pilot (which try to crush
him on impact) if the only problem is to get him out of the cockpit?

Get the pilot out of the cockpit somehow and let him use his proven
parachute that has proven lots of times to work reliably in the speed
range of a (broken) glider.
Soteira.


Cheers
Andreas

On Mon, 24 Jan 2011 01:32:50 +0000, Sparkorama
wrote:


Has anyone here ever had to exit a glider in the air? Know anyone that
has? It seems to me that a mid-air in a thermal or in the pattern is the
biggest danger. And I just can't imagine getting out of a harness and
out of a plane in the few seconds it would take if you broke a wing on
another plane.

You are correct.

A friend of mine had an inflight collision. She lost 8 ft of the left
wing of her ASW-27 which entered a spiral dive.

The collision happened at about 4.000 ft over the ground. Time from
collision to impact 56 (!!!!!) seconds. During this time she was
unable to leave the glider.

I'm really a huge fan of the ASW-27, but in my opinion its very high
cockpit walls definitely were a factor for her inability to bail out.

On the ground I get out of the 25 in less than five seconds with the
parachute starpped on.


Andreas

I had to bail out of a glider in 1990.this was an LS1f when the ailerons
became locked up at full left aileron after a yank and bank.....
I was only at the time somewhere between 1500-2000' AGL....after one
complete roll it was obvious the controls were not going to come free so I
jettisoned the canopy, undid the belts and pushed out...I had still enough
time to clear the risers, steer the parachute and make a safe landing in the
woods down through the trees .....I attribute my success to this to having
been prepared and knowing my equipment, the glider and the parachute. I had
several years before this made 3 static line jumps so the fear of actually
having to bail out was reduced and I had some idea what to expect...did I
say I wasn't scared? absolutely not, this was an emergency! I said several
"Hail Mary's" and some stuff I made up!..but I was as prepared as I could be
.....that is the difference from those who have had to bail out (and I know
of several other) and those we have held funerals for...hesitation to bail
out would be expected if you only wore a parachute because others flying
gliders do....read the manuals, practice and go through the motions just as
you would need to if the emergency were to come...trust me, you won't have
time to read them when it happens!
I'm not a big fan of having BRS in every aircraft, I think it too can give a
false sense of security....witness the number of successful BRS uses on just
the Cirrus aircraft alone....how many of these pilots simply popped the
chute when they panicked, got over their heads and into weather they weren't
qualified or current enough to handle..we can't verify every one but there
have been some instances where these and I'm sure some UL or LSA BRS
deployments that were just a Panic reaction to a bad situation..even if I
had a BRS I would still wear a parachute....I buy life insurance too, when I
quit buying life insurance then too I'll leave the parachute on the ground.
tim
Please visit the Wings & Wheels website at www.wingsandwheels.com

"Andreas Maurer" wrote in message
...
On Mon, 24 Jan 2011 01:32:50 +0000, Sparkorama
wrote:


Has anyone here ever had to exit a glider in the air? Know anyone that
has? It seems to me that a mid-air in a thermal or in the pattern is the
biggest danger. And I just can't imagine getting out of a harness and
out of a plane in the few seconds it would take if you broke a wing on
another plane.

You are correct.

A friend of mine had an inflight collision. She lost 8 ft of the left
wing of her ASW-27 which entered a spiral dive.

The collision happened at about 4.000 ft over the ground. Time from
collision to impact 56 (!!!!!) seconds. During this time she was
unable to leave the glider.

I'm really a huge fan of the ASW-27, but in my opinion its very high
cockpit walls definitely were a factor for her inability to bail out.

On the ground I get out of the 25 in less than five seconds with the
parachute starpped on.


Andreas

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On Mon, 24 Jan 2011 01:36:45 +0100, Andreas Maurer wrote:

- NO BRS has ever been tested in an extreme situation (one wing or
tailplane gon, violent spin, high positive or negative g-loads).

With all due respect, this is not correct. There are two BRS uses I'm
aware of where it was popped after the aircraft shed a wing and both are
the subject of videos:

- An Archaeopteryx ultra-light glider lost a wing when over-stressed
in a loop at the 2010 Coupe Icarus. http://vimeo.com/17923312

- An RANS-7 lost a wing during an aerobatic display in Argentina.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jgfG2DfPB6I

I'd agree that retro-fitting is problematic: I can't imagine how you'd
get a BRS into any glider with exposed spar stubs, e.g. a Libelle, ASW-19
or Discus 1. Even where it apparently just slots in there may be problems
that aren't obvious until you fire it. I've always been worried by photos
of a BRS installation in an HP-14 (I think it was a 14) that show the BRS
webbing straps wrapped round the centre section spar. The thing that
bothers me is that the straps pass round the protruding edge of an alloy
L extrusion, so there's apparently nothing to stop it from cutting the
webbing during the initial opening shock. I'm not an engineer so this may
be perfectly fine, but the sight still makes my teeth itch each time I
see that photo.


--
martin@ | Martin Gregorie
gregorie. | Essex, UK
org |

On Jan 24, 5:23*am, Martin Gregorie
wrote:
On Mon, 24 Jan 2011 01:36:45 +0100, Andreas Maurer wrote:
- NO BRS has ever been tested in an extreme situation (one wing or
tailplane gon, violent spin, high positive or negative g-loads).

With all due respect, this is not correct. There are two BRS uses I'm
aware of where it was popped after the aircraft shed a wing and both are
the subject of videos:

- An Archaeopteryx ultra-light glider lost a wing when over-stressed
* in a loop at the 2010 Coupe Icarus.http://vimeo.com/17923312

- An RANS-7 lost a wing during an aerobatic display in Argentina.
*http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jgfG2DfPB6I

I'd agree that retro-fitting is problematic: I can't imagine how you'd
get a BRS into any glider with exposed spar stubs, e.g. a Libelle, ASW-19
or Discus 1. Even where it apparently just slots in there may be problems
that aren't obvious until you fire it. I've always been worried by photos
of a BRS installation in an HP-14 (I think it was a 14) that show the BRS
webbing straps wrapped round the centre section spar. The thing that
bothers me is that the straps pass round the protruding edge of an alloy
L extrusion, so there's apparently nothing to stop it from cutting the
webbing during the initial opening shock. I'm not an engineer so this may
be perfectly fine, but the sight still makes my teeth itch each time I
see that photo.

--
martin@ * | Martin Gregorie
gregorie. | Essex, UK
org * * * |

What do you mean by exposed spar stubs? How are they more exposed,
and to what, in the 19 rather than say the 24, 27, 28, and 29.

Andy