Tow Signals

Tony wrote:
Im not sure what kind of turbulence you are flying in, but the thermals
we have here will not come anywhere close to mimicking a wing rock. my
kind of wing rock is +/- 30 degrees of bank rapidly.

That's a point I hadn't thought about before. In remembering the few
times I was rocked off in training, I can't tell you if the tow pilot
rocked quickly from 30 degrees to 30 degrees, more slowly doing 45/45,
or whatever.

I *have* seen tow planes upset enough on tow (either wave season towing
out of Minden or summer thermals in the great basin) that I thought
"this could be a rock-off but I better wait and see..."

Back at sea level, I think it's quite a bit more clear.

Jeremy

you get one wing rock..
if I really need you gone and you dealy
you will be holding the rope..

BT

"Tony" wrote in message
ups.com...
My sentiments seem to echo Burts because he taught me to tow.

the towpilot rocks the wings cause you need to get off now, not
because you need to fiddle with a couple handles, pick your nose, and
then get off.
you should be happy that your towpilot gives you the courtesy of
rocking the wings. If I in the towplane am experiencing an engine
problem, first thing is to pull the red handle.
Im not sure what kind of turbulence you are flying in, but the thermals
we have here will not come anywhere close to mimicking a wing rock. my
kind of wing rock is +/- 30 degrees of bank rapidly.

Ramy wrote:
All good advises from Burt and Tony, but since we are all human, and
human makes human mistakes, wouldn't you all agree that an amendment to
the "wing rocking" signal to first check airbrakes and then release
could save lives? It can take 5-10 seconds before recognizing that the
tow plane is rocking the wings and not just hitting turbulance, which
is plenty of time to take a quick look at the spoiler. This will also
cover the case where the tow pilot gives the wrong signal by mistake,
I'm sure this has happened before.

Ramy


Burt Compton - Marfa wrote:
Us a pretakeoff checklist - just like you did once on your FAA
Checkride!

CBSIFTCBE works - or any checklist that includes "airbrakes (spoilers)
closed and locked."

Left hand in a fist - behind the airbrake handle may alert you that
airbrakes are creeping open. The free video from the Soaring SAfety
Foundation has a good segment on signals and checklists. Order from
www.soaringsafety.org


Our procedure at Marfa, TX USA (developed from the towpilot's point of
view):

Ground crew refuses to hook up towrope until pilot closes and locks
airbrakes.

IF glider pilot wishes to use airbrakes open on takeoff for better
aileron control with water ballast, then ground crew confirms the
towpilot is aware of this.

Glider pilot radios towpilot "canopy and airbrakes closed and locked".

Towpilot (just before takeoff) repeats back to glider pilot "understand
your canopy and airbrakes are closed and locked."

If you do not follow our procedures - we don't launch.

No one gets a tow without a "Marfa Aerotow Briefing". Casual or "know
it all" glider pilots are refused a tow unless our procedures are
completed.

Sorry but as your towpilot we gotta do it my way. This cat has used up
8 of my 9 lives over the past 39 years towing gliders. Many glider
pilots view the tow as a means to an end- "just get me up there" like a
ski lift operator. Do the checklists, follow the procedures, and
remember the "joy of soaring"starts after you release!

Burt CFIG / DPE
Marfa Gliders west Texas
www.flygliders.com

Burt Compton - Marfa wrote:
Casual or "know
it all" glider pilots are refused a tow unless our procedures are
completed.

I assume you never tow at contests.


Andy

Burt Compton - Marfa wrote:
Us a pretakeoff checklist - just like you did once on your FAA
Checkride!

CBSIFTCBE works - or any checklist that includes "airbrakes (spoilers)
closed and locked."

Burt, If I may jump in here.I think what Ramy had in mind on this
thread was the misinterpretation of tow signals and not the use of
checklists.Are you sugesting that if a pilot uses a checklist he or she
will never have a tow emergency?The "airbrakes closed and locked" runs
contrary to some sailplane P.O.H.s that suggest starting the take off
roll in something other than the final take off configuration.I will
readily admit that it works great when towing trainers though.



Our procedure at Marfa, TX USA (developed from the towpilot's point of
view):

Obviously the tow pilot doesnt have to worry about aileron authority.

Ground crew refuses to hook up towrope until pilot closes and locks
airbrakes.

IF glider pilot wishes to use airbrakes open on takeoff for better
aileron control with water ballast, then ground crew confirms the
towpilot is aware of this.

Glider pilot radios towpilot "canopy and airbrakes closed and locked".

Towpilot (just before takeoff) repeats back to glider pilot "understand
your canopy and airbrakes are closed and locked."

If you do not follow our procedures - we don't launch.

This is a good idea but you fail to mention how the procedure differs
when a pilot uses spoilers (Or negative flap).One of the three local
tow operations used this procedure but then altered it by using the
phraseology of "Canopy locked, controls checked" meaning 1;a positive
control check has been acomplished by the line person who hooked you
up, and 2; The controls are in the proper configuration for initiating
the take off (incuding the trim). This way a pilot does not have to
anounce something over the radio that isnt right.I think it sets up a
much better habit pattern.


Sorry but as your towpilot we gotta do it my way.

No problem here, lets just not do it in a maner that conflicts with the
POH.Getting back to Ramy's post, I think it is an excellent idea to
look at the spoiler handle if there is any confusion what so ever with
the tow planes signals.

Burt CFIG / DPE
Marfa Gliders west Texas
K Urban

Yes, this is exactly my point. All posters have good advises, but
still, the only way to prevent this kind of confusion, which keeps
happening over and over again and occasionly cost life, it to amend the
standard procedure for tow signals to first glimpse at the spoiler
handle, or better yet, at the spoiler itself, in most cases it will be
easier and quicker then looking at the exact handle position. No need
to look at both spoilers. If only one is open then it is another
serious problem.

Ramy

KM wrote:
Burt Compton - Marfa wrote:
Us a pretakeoff checklist - just like you did once on your FAA
Checkride!

CBSIFTCBE works - or any checklist that includes "airbrakes (spoilers)
closed and locked."

Burt, If I may jump in here.I think what Ramy had in mind on this
thread was the misinterpretation of tow signals and not the use of
checklists.Are you sugesting that if a pilot uses a checklist he or she
will never have a tow emergency?The "airbrakes closed and locked" runs
contrary to some sailplane P.O.H.s that suggest starting the take off
roll in something other than the final take off configuration.I will
readily admit that it works great when towing trainers though.



Our procedure at Marfa, TX USA (developed from the towpilot's point of
view):

Obviously the tow pilot doesnt have to worry about aileron authority.

Ground crew refuses to hook up towrope until pilot closes and locks
airbrakes.

IF glider pilot wishes to use airbrakes open on takeoff for better
aileron control with water ballast, then ground crew confirms the
towpilot is aware of this.

Glider pilot radios towpilot "canopy and airbrakes closed and locked".

Towpilot (just before takeoff) repeats back to glider pilot "understand
your canopy and airbrakes are closed and locked."

If you do not follow our procedures - we don't launch.

This is a good idea but you fail to mention how the procedure differs
when a pilot uses spoilers (Or negative flap).One of the three local
tow operations used this procedure but then altered it by using the
phraseology of "Canopy locked, controls checked" meaning 1;a positive
control check has been acomplished by the line person who hooked you
up, and 2; The controls are in the proper configuration for initiating
the take off (incuding the trim). This way a pilot does not have to
anounce something over the radio that isnt right.I think it sets up a
much better habit pattern.


Sorry but as your towpilot we gotta do it my way.

No problem here, lets just not do it in a maner that conflicts with the
POH.Getting back to Ramy's post, I think it is an excellent idea to
look at the spoiler handle if there is any confusion what so ever with
the tow planes signals.

Burt CFIG / DPE
Marfa Gliders west Texas
K Urban

where and when?

"Ramy" wrote in message
oups.com...
There had been yet another fatality recently as a result of
misinterpreting the open spoilers signal. True we all passed the
written test and know that wiggeling the rudder means check spoilers
and rocking the wings means release, yet so many students and
experienced pilots alike continiue to confuse this signal and releasing
the tow rope instead, often resulting in accidents. It is not hard to
understand why: The tow plane barely climb, the glider pilot suspects
something must be wrong with the tow plane, then he/she sees the rudder
signal which confirms his thought that something is wrong, then
releases the tow rope in panic, since this is what we were taught to do
if something is wrong with the tow plane.
I think that there is a relatively simple solution for this:
1 - If radio is available (and it always should) - use it instead of
the rudder signal!
2 - If this doesn't doesn't work, the signal should be avoided until
the glider is at least 200
feet, unless of course, the tow plane is in immediate danger.
3 - If the glider pilot sees the tow plane signaling something (wigling
the rudder or rocking the wings)
the FIRST look at the spoilers, then release the tow rope if necessary.
In this case, the pilot will do the correct action regardless of the
signal. I think this is what needs to be taught.

I am not an instructor myself, so this is just my humble opinion...

Ramy

http://www.ntsb.gov/NTSB/brief.asp?e...23X01379&key=1

The instructor passed away after a month or so later and it may not be
directly related to the accident injuries, and of course we should not
jump to any conclusion how and why it happened, but I think we can all
learn from it and try to prevent something similar from happening
again.
I myself always look at my spoilers whenever I feel that the tow plane
is not climbing as well as I would expect, usually happens after I was
towing at sea level for a while...

Ramy


BT wrote:
where and when?

"Ramy" wrote in message
oups.com...
There had been yet another fatality recently as a result of
misinterpreting the open spoilers signal. True we all passed the
written test and know that wiggeling the rudder means check spoilers
and rocking the wings means release, yet so many students and
experienced pilots alike continiue to confuse this signal and releasing
the tow rope instead, often resulting in accidents. It is not hard to
understand why: The tow plane barely climb, the glider pilot suspects
something must be wrong with the tow plane, then he/she sees the rudder
signal which confirms his thought that something is wrong, then
releases the tow rope in panic, since this is what we were taught to do
if something is wrong with the tow plane.
I think that there is a relatively simple solution for this:
1 - If radio is available (and it always should) - use it instead of
the rudder signal!
2 - If this doesn't doesn't work, the signal should be avoided until
the glider is at least 200
feet, unless of course, the tow plane is in immediate danger.
3 - If the glider pilot sees the tow plane signaling something (wigling
the rudder or rocking the wings)
the FIRST look at the spoilers, then release the tow rope if necessary.
In this case, the pilot will do the correct action regardless of the
signal. I think this is what needs to be taught.

I am not an instructor myself, so this is just my humble opinion...

Ramy

Nothing will take the place of really learning and
understanding the signals, reviewing them regularly
and testing for them on every BFR.

If every tow pilot gave the rudder wag on every tenth
tow, pilots would begin to recognize this signal for
what it is.


At 19:31 12 October 2006, Ramy wrote:
Yes, this is exactly my point. All posters have good
advises, but
still, the only way to prevent this kind of confusion,
which keeps
happening over and over again and occasionly cost life,
it to amend the
standard procedure for tow signals to first glimpse
at the spoiler
handle, or better yet, at the spoiler itself, in most
cases it will be
easier and quicker then looking at the exact handle
position. No need
to look at both spoilers. If only one is open then
it is another
serious problem.

Ramy

KM wrote:
Burt Compton - Marfa wrote:
Us a pretakeoff checklist - just like you did once
on your FAA
Checkride!

CBSIFTCBE works - or any checklist that includes
'airbrakes (spoilers)
closed and locked.'

Burt, If I may jump in here.I think what Ramy had
in mind on this
thread was the misinterpretation of tow signals and
not the use of
checklists.Are you sugesting that if a pilot uses
a checklist he or she
will never have a tow emergency?The 'airbrakes closed
and locked' runs
contrary to some sailplane P.O.H.s that suggest starting
the take off
roll in something other than the final take off configuration.I
will
readily admit that it works great when towing trainers
though.



Our procedure at Marfa, TX USA (developed from the
towpilot's point of
view):

Obviously the tow pilot doesnt have to worry about
aileron authority.

Ground crew refuses to hook up towrope until pilot
closes and locks
airbrakes.

IF glider pilot wishes to use airbrakes open on takeoff
for better
aileron control with water ballast, then ground crew
confirms the
towpilot is aware of this.

Glider pilot radios towpilot 'canopy and airbrakes
closed and locked'.

Towpilot (just before takeoff) repeats back to glider
pilot 'understand
your canopy and airbrakes are closed and locked.'

If you do not follow our procedures - we don't launch.

This is a good idea but you fail to mention how the
procedure differs
when a pilot uses spoilers (Or negative flap).One
of the three local
tow operations used this procedure but then altered
it by using the
phraseology of 'Canopy locked, controls checked' meaning
1;a positive
control check has been acomplished by the line person
who hooked you
up, and 2; The controls are in the proper configuration
for initiating
the take off (incuding the trim). This way a pilot
does not have to
anounce something over the radio that isnt right.I
think it sets up a
much better habit pattern.


Sorry but as your towpilot we gotta do it my way.

No problem here, lets just not do it in a maner that
conflicts with the
POH.Getting back to Ramy's post, I think it is an
excellent idea to
look at the spoiler handle if there is any confusion
what so ever with
the tow planes signals.

Burt CFIG / DPE
Marfa Gliders west Texas
K Urban

But what if the tow pilot give the wrong signal? Or what if the tow
pilot had difficult climbing, did not realize the glider spoilers are
open (no mirrors) and rocked the wings instead of wigeling the rudder?
My suggestion to take a quick glimpse at the spoiler before releasing
will solve this scenario as well. Tow pilots can make mistakes as well,
especially if they did not practice the signal often. I had quiet a few
cases where I radioed to the tow pilots to turn towards 1 or 2 o'clock
and instead they turned towards 11 or 10 o'clock... (I know we all wear
digital watches these days ;-)
One quick glimpse at the spoiler before pulling the release will not
hurt anyone and only can save lives. The pilot in the accident
mentioned may have cleared the wires if he closed the spoilers first.

Ramy

Nyal Williams wrote:
Nothing will take the place of really learning and
understanding the signals, reviewing them regularly
and testing for them on every BFR.

If every tow pilot gave the rudder wag on every tenth
tow, pilots would begin to recognize this signal for
what it is.


At 19:31 12 October 2006, Ramy wrote:
Yes, this is exactly my point. All posters have good
advises, but
still, the only way to prevent this kind of confusion,
which keeps
happening over and over again and occasionly cost life,
it to amend the
standard procedure for tow signals to first glimpse
at the spoiler
handle, or better yet, at the spoiler itself, in most
cases it will be
easier and quicker then looking at the exact handle
position. No need
to look at both spoilers. If only one is open then
it is another
serious problem.

Ramy

KM wrote:
Burt Compton - Marfa wrote:
Us a pretakeoff checklist - just like you did once
on your FAA
Checkride!

CBSIFTCBE works - or any checklist that includes
'airbrakes (spoilers)
closed and locked.'

Burt, If I may jump in here.I think what Ramy had
in mind on this
thread was the misinterpretation of tow signals and
not the use of
checklists.Are you sugesting that if a pilot uses
a checklist he or she
will never have a tow emergency?The 'airbrakes closed
and locked' runs
contrary to some sailplane P.O.H.s that suggest starting
the take off
roll in something other than the final take off configuration.I
will
readily admit that it works great when towing trainers
though.



Our procedure at Marfa, TX USA (developed from the
towpilot's point of
view):

Obviously the tow pilot doesnt have to worry about
aileron authority.

Ground crew refuses to hook up towrope until pilot
closes and locks
airbrakes.

IF glider pilot wishes to use airbrakes open on takeoff
for better
aileron control with water ballast, then ground crew
confirms the
towpilot is aware of this.

Glider pilot radios towpilot 'canopy and airbrakes
closed and locked'.

Towpilot (just before takeoff) repeats back to glider
pilot 'understand
your canopy and airbrakes are closed and locked.'

If you do not follow our procedures - we don't launch.

This is a good idea but you fail to mention how the
procedure differs
when a pilot uses spoilers (Or negative flap).One
of the three local
tow operations used this procedure but then altered
it by using the
phraseology of 'Canopy locked, controls checked' meaning
1;a positive
control check has been acomplished by the line person
who hooked you
up, and 2; The controls are in the proper configuration
for initiating
the take off (incuding the trim). This way a pilot
does not have to
anounce something over the radio that isnt right.I
think it sets up a
much better habit pattern.


Sorry but as your towpilot we gotta do it my way.

No problem here, lets just not do it in a maner that
conflicts with the
POH.Getting back to Ramy's post, I think it is an
excellent idea to
look at the spoiler handle if there is any confusion
what so ever with
the tow planes signals.

Burt CFIG / DPE
Marfa Gliders west Texas
K Urban

I don't fly both ends of the rope, but it seems to me that we at the
trailing end have fewer adverse effects that can be caused by the pilot
at the other end. In other words, we could cause the tug pilot more
problems that he can cause us. The two times I've been waved off, there
was no mistake about what was intended. To solve the spoiler open
thing... I just fly ships that don't have them (yukin' it up, here)...
Seriously, know and use the signal. Someone posted that there's no
excuse for not having a $200- portable... There's no excuse for not
knowing these important signals. Radios are great but... Radios DO
malfunction... Transmissions DO get walked on... And... you don't get
too much for $200- in a portable. That being the opinion of someone
that does radio for a living.

Jack Womack
PIK-20B N77MA (TE)