Cherokee 140 Oil Temp Sending Unit

[Mike Spera]

I am in a quest to troubleshoot an oil temp that has crept up a bit in the
last 100 hours or so. Checked all the baffling and"usual stuff". I was going
to check the accuracy of the gauge via testing.

2 things that I cannot find: the part number of the oil temp sending unit
and a supplier. This part does not appear either in the engine parts list or
the airplane parts list. Engine is a 150hp E-3D.

Any info would be appreciated.
Thanks,

Mike

[[email protected]]

On Sep 5, 3:00 pm, "Mike Spera" > wrote:
> I am in a quest to troubleshoot an oil temp that has crept up a bit in the
> last 100 hours or so. Checked all the baffling and"usual stuff". I was going
> to check the accuracy of the gauge via testing.
>
> 2 things that I cannot find: the part number of the oil temp sending unit
> and a supplier. This part does not appear either in the engine parts list or
> the airplane parts list. Engine is a 150hp E-3D.
>
> Any info would be appreciated.
> Thanks,
>
> Mike

Spiking oil temp can sometimes be blamed on poor engine and/or
alternator grounding. That little sender is a thermistor whose
resistance drops as it gets warm, allowing the electrical system to
draw more current out of the engine case, through the gauge and into
the bus.

Now, the alternator is generating electricity. It charges the battery
and powers the bus by "pulling" electrons from the bus and dumping
them into the crankcase to which it is bolted and into the firewall,
to which it should be grounded by a separate cable. If the cable
connections are bad, or if the crankcase-to-engine mount strap
connections are bad, or if the engine mount's interface with the
firewall is bad, those electrons look for other ways to get to the
airframe. They'll travel along control cables, wire shielding, and
yes, through the oil temp sender and through the gauge, having a
boosting effect and making the gauge read higher. You might get
alternator noise in your headset, too.

Cessna had a similar problem and now they recommend a separate, small
ground wire from the case near the sender to the gauge frame itself.
That keeps the potential as close to ground as possible and improves
accuracy. But if engine grounding is poor, hard starting will show up
and some of those little ground wires and engine control cables will
get hot.

I'd start by cleaning all the ground connections. Then see if the temp
is still too high.

Sometimes oil coolers get sludged up and internally coated with
varnish and crud, insulating the hot oil from the cooling airflow.

Dan

[[email protected]]

On Sep 5, 6:58*pm, wrote:
> On Sep 5, 3:00 pm, "Mike Spera" > wrote:
>
> > I am in a quest to troubleshoot an oil temp that has crept up a bit in the
> > last 100 hours or so. Checked all the baffling and"usual stuff". I was going
> > to check the accuracy of the gauge via testing.
>
> > 2 things that I cannot find: the part number of the oil temp sending unit
> > and a supplier. This part does not appear either in the engine parts list or
> > the airplane parts list. Engine is a 150hp E-3D.
>
> > Any info would be appreciated.
> > Thanks,
>
> > Mike
>
> Spiking oil temp can sometimes be blamed on poor engine and/or
> alternator grounding. That little sender is a thermistor whose
> resistance drops as it gets warm, allowing the electrical system to
> draw more current out of the engine case, through the gauge and into
> the bus.
>
> Now, the alternator is generating electricity. It charges the battery
> and powers the bus by "pulling" electrons from the bus and dumping
> them into the crankcase to which it is bolted and into the firewall,
> to which it should be grounded by a separate cable. If the cable
> connections are bad, or if the crankcase-to-engine mount strap
> connections are bad, or if the engine mount's interface with the
> firewall is bad, those electrons look for other ways to get to the
> airframe. They'll travel along control cables, wire shielding, and
> yes, through the oil temp sender and through the gauge, having a
> boosting effect and making the gauge read higher. You might get
> alternator noise in your headset, too.
>
> Cessna had a similar problem and now they recommend a separate, small
> ground wire from the case near the sender to the gauge frame itself.
> That keeps the potential as close to ground as possible and improves
> accuracy. But if engine grounding is poor, hard starting will show up
> and some of those little ground wires and engine control cables will
> get hot.
>
> I'd start by cleaning all the ground connections. Then see if the temp
> is still too high.
>
> Sometimes oil coolers get sludged up and internally coated with
> varnish and crud, insulating the hot oil from the cooling airflow.
>
> Dan

Should have pointed out one more possibility: The Vernatherm, which
controls the oil cooler bypass. As the oil warms up the vernatherm
pushes a valve into a port so that the oil has to go through the
cooler instead of bypassing it. If the Vernatherm is shot, the oil
will get hot.

If your engine has an oil screen, the vernatherm is the big nut on the
back of the screen housing right next to the temp pickup. If it has a
spin-on filter, it's in the bottom of the filter adapter, opposite the
temp sender which is on top.

Dan

[Scott Braddock]

Mike Spera wrote:
/snip/
> 2 things that I cannot find: the part number of the oil temp sending unit
> and a supplier. This part does not appear either in the engine parts list or
> the airplane parts list. Engine is a 150hp E-3D.
>
> Any info would be appreciated.
> Thanks,
>
> Mike
>
>
Mike,

My Feb. 1995 Cherokee parts catalog shows the sending unit on Figure 68,
"Electrical System Installation", item #63: "Gauge-Engine Unit, Oil
Temperature" Depending on your Serial # ( <20550, or >20550 ), it shows
Piper part # 462-046, or 550-487 (mfg's part #'s 1514976, or 362-EW).
Bear in mind all of those #'s have probably been superceded by now, but
perhaps a Piper dealer or Lycoming distributor can take you from there.

Happy Flying!
Scott Skylane

[Mike Spera]

Scott,

That's the gauge you are looking at, not the sending unit. I don't need the
gauge.

Thanks,
Mike

> Mike,
>
> My Feb. 1995 Cherokee parts catalog shows the sending unit on Figure 68,
> "Electrical System Installation", item #63: "Gauge-Engine Unit, Oil
> Temperature" Depending on your Serial # ( <20550, or >20550 ), it shows
> Piper part # 462-046, or 550-487 (mfg's part #'s 1514976, or 362-EW). Bear
> in mind all of those #'s have probably been superceded by now, but perhaps
> a Piper dealer or Lycoming distributor can take you from there.
>
> Happy Flying!
> Scott Skylane

[Mike Spera]

Dan,

When I said I checked the "usual stuff", I meant that I already did all the
things you suggested. Oil cooler and Vernatherm replaced with new units, all
connections checked, alternator running properly, gauge and sending unit
properly grounded, baffles sealing, etc.

I am looking for the part number of the sending unit and a source. If it is
cheap enough I may get one and swap it. Getting an immersion heater in a
vessel with the sending unit and a thermometer is a lot of stuff to juggle,
especiall once the heater starts heating up the water.. Done it before. For
a 10 buck sender, I would just replace it. However, if the thing is $50 then
I'll bite the bullet and do the test.

Thanks for the clues,
Mike


> wrote in message
...
On Sep 5, 6:58 pm, wrote:
> On Sep 5, 3:00 pm, "Mike Spera" > wrote:
>
> > I am in a quest to troubleshoot an oil temp that has crept up a bit in
> > the
> > last 100 hours or so. Checked all the baffling and"usual stuff". I was
> > going
> > to check the accuracy of the gauge via testing.
>
> > 2 things that I cannot find: the part number of the oil temp sending
> > unit
> > and a supplier. This part does not appear either in the engine parts
> > list or
> > the airplane parts list. Engine is a 150hp E-3D.
>
> > Any info would be appreciated.
> > Thanks,
>
> > Mike
>
> Spiking oil temp can sometimes be blamed on poor engine and/or
> alternator grounding. That little sender is a thermistor whose
> resistance drops as it gets warm, allowing the electrical system to
> draw more current out of the engine case, through the gauge and into
> the bus.
>
> Now, the alternator is generating electricity. It charges the battery
> and powers the bus by "pulling" electrons from the bus and dumping
> them into the crankcase to which it is bolted and into the firewall,
> to which it should be grounded by a separate cable. If the cable
> connections are bad, or if the crankcase-to-engine mount strap
> connections are bad, or if the engine mount's interface with the
> firewall is bad, those electrons look for other ways to get to the
> airframe. They'll travel along control cables, wire shielding, and
> yes, through the oil temp sender and through the gauge, having a
> boosting effect and making the gauge read higher. You might get
> alternator noise in your headset, too.
>
> Cessna had a similar problem and now they recommend a separate, small
> ground wire from the case near the sender to the gauge frame itself.
> That keeps the potential as close to ground as possible and improves
> accuracy. But if engine grounding is poor, hard starting will show up
> and some of those little ground wires and engine control cables will
> get hot.
>
> I'd start by cleaning all the ground connections. Then see if the temp
> is still too high.
>
> Sometimes oil coolers get sludged up and internally coated with
> varnish and crud, insulating the hot oil from the cooling airflow.
>
> Dan

Should have pointed out one more possibility: The Vernatherm, which
controls the oil cooler bypass. As the oil warms up the vernatherm
pushes a valve into a port so that the oil has to go through the
cooler instead of bypassing it. If the Vernatherm is shot, the oil
will get hot.

If your engine has an oil screen, the vernatherm is the big nut on the
back of the screen housing right next to the temp pickup. If it has a
spin-on filter, it's in the bottom of the filter adapter, opposite the
temp sender which is on top.

Dan

[Scott Braddock]

Mike Spera wrote:
> Scott,
>
> That's the gauge you are looking at, not the sending unit. I don't need the
> gauge.
>
> Thanks,
> Mike
>
>> Mike,
>>
>> My Feb. 1995 Cherokee parts catalog shows the sending unit on Figure 68,
>> "Electrical System Installation", item #63: "Gauge-Engine Unit, Oil
>> Temperature" Depending on your Serial # ( <20550, or >20550 ), it shows
>> Piper part # 462-046, or 550-487 (mfg's part #'s 1514976, or 362-EW). Bear
>> in mind all of those #'s have probably been superceded by now, but perhaps
>> a Piper dealer or Lycoming distributor can take you from there.
>>
>> Happy Flying!
>> Scott Skylane
>
>
Mike,

I believe the part #'s I gave you are the correct ones. If you have
access to the drawing, you will see it clearly indicates the sending
unit, which screws in to the accessory case. Notice they call it
"Gauge, *Engine Unit*, Oil Temp". The actual gauge, that you see in the
cockpit, is listed in Figure 16 & 17, "Instrument Panel Installation",
under items # 28 & 35, respectively: "Instrument - Oil Temperature",
again, depending on serial no.

Happy Flying!
Scott Skylane

[Ross]

Mike Spera wrote:
> Dan,
>
> When I said I checked the "usual stuff", I meant that I already did all the
> things you suggested. Oil cooler and Vernatherm replaced with new units, all
> connections checked, alternator running properly, gauge and sending unit
> properly grounded, baffles sealing, etc.
>
> I am looking for the part number of the sending unit and a source. If it is
> cheap enough I may get one and swap it. Getting an immersion heater in a
> vessel with the sending unit and a thermometer is a lot of stuff to juggle,
> especiall once the heater starts heating up the water.. Done it before. For
> a 10 buck sender, I would just replace it. However, if the thing is $50 then
> I'll bite the bullet and do the test.
>
> Thanks for the clues,
> Mike
>
>
> > wrote in message
> ...
> On Sep 5, 6:58 pm, wrote:
>> On Sep 5, 3:00 pm, "Mike Spera" > wrote:
>>
>>> I am in a quest to troubleshoot an oil temp that has crept up a bit in
>>> the
>>> last 100 hours or so. Checked all the baffling and"usual stuff". I was
>>> going
>>> to check the accuracy of the gauge via testing.
>>> 2 things that I cannot find: the part number of the oil temp sending
>>> unit
>>> and a supplier. This part does not appear either in the engine parts
>>> list or
>>> the airplane parts list. Engine is a 150hp E-3D.
>>> Any info would be appreciated.
>>> Thanks,
>>> Mike
>> Spiking oil temp can sometimes be blamed on poor engine and/or
>> alternator grounding. That little sender is a thermistor whose
>> resistance drops as it gets warm, allowing the electrical system to
>> draw more current out of the engine case, through the gauge and into
>> the bus.
>>
>> Now, the alternator is generating electricity. It charges the battery
>> and powers the bus by "pulling" electrons from the bus and dumping
>> them into the crankcase to which it is bolted and into the firewall,
>> to which it should be grounded by a separate cable. If the cable
>> connections are bad, or if the crankcase-to-engine mount strap
>> connections are bad, or if the engine mount's interface with the
>> firewall is bad, those electrons look for other ways to get to the
>> airframe. They'll travel along control cables, wire shielding, and
>> yes, through the oil temp sender and through the gauge, having a
>> boosting effect and making the gauge read higher. You might get
>> alternator noise in your headset, too.
>>
>> Cessna had a similar problem and now they recommend a separate, small
>> ground wire from the case near the sender to the gauge frame itself.
>> That keeps the potential as close to ground as possible and improves
>> accuracy. But if engine grounding is poor, hard starting will show up
>> and some of those little ground wires and engine control cables will
>> get hot.
>>
>> I'd start by cleaning all the ground connections. Then see if the temp
>> is still too high.
>>
>> Sometimes oil coolers get sludged up and internally coated with
>> varnish and crud, insulating the hot oil from the cooling airflow.
>>
>> Dan
>
> Should have pointed out one more possibility: The Vernatherm, which
> controls the oil cooler bypass. As the oil warms up the vernatherm
> pushes a valve into a port so that the oil has to go through the
> cooler instead of bypassing it. If the Vernatherm is shot, the oil
> will get hot.
>
> If your engine has an oil screen, the vernatherm is the big nut on the
> back of the screen housing right next to the temp pickup. If it has a
> spin-on filter, it's in the bottom of the filter adapter, opposite the
> temp sender which is on top.
>
> Dan
>
>

It's not that hard to calibrate the system. I put the sending unit and a
calibrated temperature probe on a DMM in a cup of oil and heated it to
180F and marked the gauge on the panel so I would know exactly where
that magic number occurred. It did take three folks, two to work the
heated oil and one in the plane to mark the gauge with a small piece of
tape.

--

Regards, Ross
C-172F 180HP
Sold :(
KSWI

[Mike Isaksen]

"Scott Braddock" wrote in message
> Mike,
> I believe the part #'s I gave you are the correct ones. Happy Flying!
> Scott Skylane

This Piper Forum post agrees with those numbers:

http://forums.piperowner.org/read/4/5724/5725/quote=1

[Robert M. Gary]

On Sep 5, 2:00*pm, "Mike Spera" > wrote:
> I am in a quest to troubleshoot an oil temp that has crept up a bit in the
> last 100 hours or so. Checked all the baffling and"usual stuff". I was going
> to check the accuracy of the gauge via testing.
>
> 2 things that I cannot find: the part number of the oil temp sending unit
> and a supplier. This part does not appear either in the engine parts list or
> the airplane parts list. Engine is a 150hp E-3D.
>
> Any info would be appreciated.
> Thanks,
>
> Mike

Not to be too obvious but have you looked at the oil cooler? They
require periodic "rod outs", about every 10 years. There are places
you can send it to that will clear out all the channels and return it
yellow taged. Just did mine about 8 years ago and will probably plan
to do it again in the next couple years on my IO-360.

-Robert

[Mike Spera]

O.K., I'll chase those numbers down.

Thanks,

Mike
"Scott Braddock" > wrote in message
mmunications...
> Mike Spera wrote:
>> Scott,
>>
>> That's the gauge you are looking at, not the sending unit. I don't need
>> the gauge.
>>
>> Thanks,
>> Mike
>>
>>> Mike,
>>>
>>> My Feb. 1995 Cherokee parts catalog shows the sending unit on Figure 68,
>>> "Electrical System Installation", item #63: "Gauge-Engine Unit, Oil
>>> Temperature" Depending on your Serial # ( <20550, or >20550 ), it shows
>>> Piper part # 462-046, or 550-487 (mfg's part #'s 1514976, or 362-EW).
>>> Bear in mind all of those #'s have probably been superceded by now, but
>>> perhaps a Piper dealer or Lycoming distributor can take you from there.
>>>
>>> Happy Flying!
>>> Scott Skylane
>>
>>
> Mike,
>
> I believe the part #'s I gave you are the correct ones. If you have
> access to the drawing, you will see it clearly indicates the sending unit,
> which screws in to the accessory case. Notice they call it "Gauge,
> *Engine Unit*, Oil Temp". The actual gauge, that you see in the cockpit,
> is listed in Figure 16 & 17, "Instrument Panel Installation", under items
> # 28 & 35, respectively: "Instrument - Oil Temperature", again, depending
> on serial no.
>
> Happy Flying!
> Scott Skylane