Why didn't Bush fight?

[ArtKramr]

Anyone have a reasion? Any reason?


Arthur Kramer
344th BG 494th BS
England, France, Belgium, Holland, Germany
Visit my WW II B-26 website at:
http://www.coastcomp.com/artkramer

[Steven P. McNicoll]

Anyone have a reason? Any reason?

[B2431]

I thought you said you would stop initiating off topic posts. I see your word
is meaningless.

Dan, U.S. Air Force, retired

[ArtKramr]

>Subject: Re: Why didn't Bush fight?
>From: (B2431)
>Date: 8/29/2004 11:09 AM Pacific Standard Time
>Message-id: >
>
>I thought you said you would stop initiating off topic posts. I see your
>word
>is meaningless.
>
>Dan, U.S. Air Force, retired
>

It is dead on topic. This ia a military aviation NG. You mean Bush doesn't
qualify as a military aviator? well I guess you have a point there.



Arthur Kramer
344th BG 494th BS
England, France, Belgium, Holland, Germany
Visit my WW II B-26 website at:
http://www.coastcomp.com/artkramer

[Kyle Boatright]

"Steven P. McNicoll" > wrote in message
nk.net...
> Anyone have a reason? Any reason?

I added Art to the wastebin a couple of months ago. He has a lot to offer
the group as an ex-WWII aircrew, but his signal to noise ratio is way outta
whack.

[B2431]

>From: (ArtKramr)
>Date: 8/29/2004 1:45 PM Central Daylight Time
>Message-id: >
>
>>Subject: Re: Why didn't Bush fight?
>>From: (B2431)
>>Date: 8/29/2004 11:09 AM Pacific Standard Time
>>Message-id: >
>>
>>I thought you said you would stop initiating off topic posts. I see your
>>word
>>is meaningless.
>>
>>Dan, U.S. Air Force, retired
>>
>
>It is dead on topic. This ia a military aviation NG. You mean Bush doesn't
>qualify as a military aviator? well I guess you have a point there.
>
>
>
>Arthur Kramer

Read your subject line. You are still pushing your agenda. You never intended
this to be a military aviation thread and you know it. I say again: your word
is worthless.

Dan, U.S. Air Force, retired

[Bob Coe]

"ArtKramr" > wrote
>
> Anyone have a reasion? Any reason?

Fight what? You still babbling about 35 years ago? Is that
when your brain quit?

[George Shirley]

Kyle Boatright wrote:
> "Steven P. McNicoll" > wrote in message
> nk.net...
>
>>Anyone have a reason? Any reason?
>
>
> I added Art to the wastebin a couple of months ago. He has a lot to offer
> the group as an ex-WWII aircrew, but his signal to noise ratio is way outta
> whack.
>
>
And I kill filed him a year ago but people I do like keep replying to
him so, much as I hate to, I guess I'll have to killfile them to keep
from seeing Kramer's stupid libdem posts.

George

[Jack G]

Art's brain didn't make it out of WW II...

Jack G.

"Bob Coe" > wrote in message
news:hHqYc.15614$ni.8726@okepread01...
> "ArtKramr" > wrote
> >
> > Anyone have a reasion? Any reason?
>
> Fight what? You still babbling about 35 years ago? Is that
> when your brain quit?
>
>

[Kevin Brooks]

"ArtKramr" > wrote in message
...
> Anyone have a reasion? Any reason?

Weren't you the guy who siad he was going to stop starting purely political
threads?

Brooks
>
>
> Arthur Kramer (Liar, extraordinaire)

[Ragnar]

"ArtKramr" > wrote in message
...
> Anyone have a reasion? Any reason?

Anyone have a reason? Any reason?

[Leslie Swartz]

Dan:

Art represents the best argument against the draft I have come across in
over 26 years of service.

Steve Swartz


"B2431" > wrote in message
...
> I thought you said you would stop initiating off topic posts. I see your
word
> is meaningless.
>
> Dan, U.S. Air Force, retired

[Jack]

ArtKramr wrote:

> Anyone have a reasion? Any reason?

I got a reason and a raisin: for you I got a razzin'. Phhhht!


Jack

[George Shirley]

Ragnar wrote:
> "ArtKramr" > wrote in message
> ...
>
>>Anyone have a reasion? Any reason?
>
>
> Anyone have a reason? Any reason?
>
>
Alzheimer's Disease, senile dementia, syphillis?

George

[BUFDRVR]

Bob Coe wrote:

>Fight what? You still babbling about 35 years ago? Is that
>when your brain quit?

Try 24 years prior to that.


BUFDRVR

"Stay on the bomb run boys, I'm gonna get those bomb doors open if it harelips
everyone on Bear Creek"

[Jim Yanik]

"Kevin Brooks" > wrote in
:

>
> "ArtKramr" > wrote in message
> ...
>> Anyone have a reasion? Any reason?

Easy.Bush was in the National Guard;his unit was not activated,and he went
where he was assigned.


Meanwhile,Kerry applied for a student deferment(to study in
*France*!),didn't get it,joined the Naval RESERVES thinking they would not
be activated,they did get activated,and he ended up off the coast of
Vietnam on a warship.Then he moved to Swift Boats thinking they saw little
action(but served for his "combat record" and political ambition),but that
changed after he was re-assigned to them.Then a 4 month rush of wounds and
Purple Hearts,and he's on his way home.

--
Jim Yanik
jyanik-at-kua.net

[ArtKramr]

>Subject: Re: Why didn't Bush fight?
>From: Jim Yanik
>Date: 8/29/2004 4:30 PM Pacific Standard Time
>Message-id: >
>
>"Kevin Brooks" > wrote in
:
>
>>
>> "ArtKramr" > wrote in message
>> ...
>>> Anyone have a reasion? Any reason?
>
>Easy.Bush was in the National Guard;his unit was not activated,and he went
>where he was assigned.
>
>
>Meanwhile,Kerry applied for a student deferment(to study in
>*France*!),didn't get it,joined the Naval RESERVES thinking they would not
>be activated,they did get activated,and he ended up off the coast of
>Vietnam on a warship.Then he moved to Swift Boats thinking they saw little
>action(but served for his "combat record" and political ambition),but that
>changed after he was re-assigned to them.Then a 4 month rush of wounds and
>Purple Hearts,and he's on his way home.
>
>--
>Jim Yanik
>jyanik-at-kua.net
>

Same with a lot of guys who hit Omaha Beach, The Hurtgen Forest and Bastogne.

Bush ran away.


Arthur Kramer
344th BG 494th BS
England, France, Belgium, Holland, Germany
Visit my WW II B-26 website at:
http://www.coastcomp.com/artkramer

[Bob Coe]

"ArtKramr" > wrote
> >
> > Then a 4 month rush of wounds and Purple Hearts,and he's on his way home.
>
> Same with a lot of guys who hit Omaha Beach, The Hurtgen Forest and Bastogne.

I thought you were at 10,000 feet? How would you know?

[Brett]

"Bob Coe" > wrote:
> "ArtKramr" > wrote
> > >
> > > Then a 4 month rush of wounds and Purple Hearts,and he's on his way
home.
> >
> > Same with a lot of guys who hit Omaha Beach, The Hurtgen Forest and
Bastogne.
>
> I thought you were at 10,000 feet? How would you know?

Does he know hit the wrong troop positions on those days.

[Tank Fixer]

In article >,
on Sun, 29 Aug 2004 17:10:43 -0500,
George Shirley attempted to say .....

> Ragnar wrote:
> > "ArtKramr" > wrote in message
> > ...
> >
> >>Anyone have a reasion? Any reason?
> >
> >
> > Anyone have a reason? Any reason?
> >
> >
> Alzheimer's Disease, senile dementia, syphillis?


A nasty combo..



--
When dealing with propaganda terminology one sometimes always speaks in
variable absolutes. This is not to be mistaken for an unbiased slant.

[Kevin Brooks]

"Bob Coe" > wrote in message
news:RavYc.15665$ni.6189@okepread01...
> "ArtKramr" > wrote
> > >
> > > Then a 4 month rush of wounds and Purple Hearts,and he's on his way
home.
> >
> > Same with a lot of guys who hit Omaha Beach, The Hurtgen Forest and
Bastogne.
>
> I thought you were at 10,000 feet? How would you know?

One minute he is telling us he was at 10K feet, the next he is telling us he
was in the trenches during the Ardennes Campaign. Actually, Art's stories
are beginning to sound a lot like Kerry's--lots of contradictions created by
the storyteller himself, and repeated refusal to address those
contradictions.

Brooks
>
>

[B2431]

>From: "Bob Coe"
>Date: 8/29/2004 8:13 PM Central Daylight Time
>Message-id: <RavYc.15665$ni.6189@okepread01>
>
>"ArtKramr" > wrote
>> >
>> > Then a 4 month rush of wounds and Purple Hearts,and he's on his way
>home.
>>
>> Same with a lot of guys who hit Omaha Beach, The Hurtgen Forest and
>Bastogne.
>
>I thought you were at 10,000 feet? How would you know?

He read it in a book.

Dan, U.S. Air Force, retired

[Jack]

Olivers wrote:

> sanjian extrapolated from data available...
>
>>Jack wrote:
>>
>>>William Black wrote:
>>>
>>>>With the exception of a few like Kerry, who was almost certainly
>>>>considering a political career even then, did anyone WANT to go to
>>>>Vietnam to fight?
>>>
>>>Yes, plenty of USAF, Navy and Marine, and Army rated officers wanted
>>>to go there and did.
>>
>>You may be surprised to know how many of them agree with Mr. Black.
>
> It's important to realize that most active duty officers in the US
> military in the years in question were not "professionals" or as many of us
> reserve officers spoke of them, "Lifers"....

Having been in the USAF through those years I am well aware of both your
and Black's points. It should be noted that even though we might assume
that true volunteers for VN were in the minority even among rated
officers, those who did volunteer were not only those with political
and/or professional ambitions, but also included those with a sincere
desire to contribute to our country's stated goals, even as Reserve or
"non-professional" officers.

I have not decided for myself yet whether it was we true believers, or
those unfortunates who were not so much in control of their own
destinies, who mere more poorly served by the misapplication of American
power in SEA. Certainly all were misused, though some satisfied their
personal goals in spite of that and are the better for it.


Jack

[ian maclure]

On Sun, 29 Aug 2004 17:00:32 -0500, Leslie Swartz wrote:

> Dan:
>
> Art represents the best argument against the draft I have come across in
> over 26 years of service.

The thought that there are draft age people out there as seriously
wigged out as Art is a tad disturbing.

IBM

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[Steven P. McNicoll]

"Kyle Boatright" > wrote in message
...
>
> I added Art to the wastebin a couple of months ago. He has a lot to offer
> the group as an ex-WWII aircrew, but his signal to noise ratio is way
> outta
> whack.
>

Even his stuff about WWII B-26 ops is of little value as his memory is now
so poor he can't separate fact from fantasy.

[ArtKramr]

>Subject: Re: Why didn't Bush fight?
>From: "Steven P. McNicoll"
>Date: 8/30/2004 3:32 PM Pacific Standard Time
>Message-id: et>
>
>
>"ian maclure" > wrote in message
...
>> On Mon, 30 Aug 2004 09:21:01 -0500, Lone Haranguer wrote:
>>
>>> He got his Rhodes scholarship through his politcal work for Fulbright,
>>> not through academic merit.
>>> LZ
>>
>> And only got to use it because he hid out in ROTC until the
>> danger of being called up had passed.
>>
>
>Clinton was never in ROTC. He made a commitment to ROTC but reneged on it.


When it comes to reneging Bush is king of the hill. At least Clinton didn't
join the reserve and then go AWOL. Besides Clinton was a great president. Bush
was th worst in history. Wish Clinton were back in office right now.




Arthur Kramer
344th BG 494th BS
England, France, Belgium, Holland, Germany
Visit my WW II B-26 website at:
http://www.coastcomp.com/artkramer

[Kevin Brooks]

"ArtKramr" > wrote in message
...
> >Subject: Re: Why didn't Bush fight?
> >From: "Steven P. McNicoll"
> >Date: 8/30/2004 3:32 PM Pacific Standard Time
> >Message-id: et>
> >
> >
> >"ian maclure" > wrote in message
> ...
> >> On Mon, 30 Aug 2004 09:21:01 -0500, Lone Haranguer wrote:
> >>
> >>> He got his Rhodes scholarship through his politcal work for Fulbright,
> >>> not through academic merit.
> >>> LZ
> >>
> >> And only got to use it because he hid out in ROTC until the
> >> danger of being called up had passed.
> >>
> >
> >Clinton was never in ROTC. He made a commitment to ROTC but reneged on
it.
>
>
> When it comes to reneging Bush is king of the hill. At least Clinton
didn't
> join the reserve and then go AWOL. Besides Clinton was a great president.
Bush
> was th worst in history. Wish Clinton were back in office right now.

If that is the truth, then you can bear no animosity towards Bush for
serving in the Guard, right?

Of course that is not right--it would violate your sacred dual-standards
ethos.

Brooks

>
>
>
>
> Arthur Kramer

[Steven P. McNicoll]

"ArtKramr" > wrote in message
...
>
> Besides Clinton was a great president.
>

Actually, Clinton is the worst president the US has ever had.


>
> Bush was th worst in history.
>

While Bush is not a great president, he's far from the worst in history.


>
> Wish Clinton were back in office right now.
>

Of course you do, because you know if he was still president Saddam would
still be running Iraq and the Taliban would still be running Afghanistan.

[OXMORON1]

Art bellowed:
>When it comes to reneging Bush is king of the hill. At least Clinton didn't
>join the reserve and then go AWOL. Besides Clinton was a great president.
>Bush
>was th worst in history. Wish Clinton were back in office right now.
>

Hell Art, Clinton signed up for advanced ROTC then reneged on the agreement.
I will agreed that Clinton is not the worst President ever for the US, but he
sure made a lot of others look real good.

Rick Clark
MFE

[Tank Fixer]

In article >,
on 30 Aug 2004 22:39:17 GMT,
ArtKramr attempted to say .....

> >Subject: Re: Why didn't Bush fight?
> >From: "Steven P. McNicoll"
> >Date: 8/30/2004 3:32 PM Pacific Standard Time
> >Message-id: et>
> >
> >
> >"ian maclure" > wrote in message
> ...
> >> On Mon, 30 Aug 2004 09:21:01 -0500, Lone Haranguer wrote:
> >>
> >>> He got his Rhodes scholarship through his politcal work for Fulbright,
> >>> not through academic merit.
> >>> LZ
> >>
> >> And only got to use it because he hid out in ROTC until the
> >> danger of being called up had passed.
> >>
> >
> >Clinton was never in ROTC. He made a commitment to ROTC but reneged on it.
>
>
> When it comes to reneging Bush is king of the hill. At least Clinton didn't
> join the reserve and then go AWOL. Besides Clinton was a great president. Bush
> was th worst in history. Wish Clinton were back in office right now.

Clinton signed the agreement to go ROTC. Once safely in England he wrote
saying how he never intended to go in and loathed the military.

So much for your hero Art.




--
When dealing with propaganda terminology one sometimes always speaks in
variable absolutes. This is not to be mistaken for an unbiased slant.

[Tank Fixer]

In article >,
on 31 Aug 2004 00:24:30 GMT,
OXMORON1 attempted to say .....

> Art bellowed:
> >When it comes to reneging Bush is king of the hill. At least Clinton didn't
> >join the reserve and then go AWOL. Besides Clinton was a great president.
> >Bush
> >was th worst in history. Wish Clinton were back in office right now.
> >
>
> Hell Art, Clinton signed up for advanced ROTC then reneged on the agreement.
> I will agreed that Clinton is not the worst President ever for the US, but he
> sure made a lot of others look real good.
>

Made Milton Filmore look like agreat president...

--
When dealing with propaganda terminology one sometimes always speaks in
variable absolutes. This is not to be mistaken for an unbiased slant.

[Steve Hix]

In article >,
Tank Fixer > wrote:

> In article >,
> on 31 Aug 2004 00:24:30 GMT,
> OXMORON1 attempted to say .....
>
> > Art bellowed:
> > >When it comes to reneging Bush is king of the hill. At least Clinton
> > >didn't
> > >join the reserve and then go AWOL. Besides Clinton was a great president.
> > >Bush
> > >was th worst in history. Wish Clinton were back in office right now.
> > >
> >
> > Hell Art, Clinton signed up for advanced ROTC then reneged on the
> > agreement.
> > I will agreed that Clinton is not the worst President ever for the US, but
> > he
> > sure made a lot of others look real good.
> >
>
> Made Milton Filmore look like agreat president...

Not to mention Millard Fillmore. :}

[Peter Stickney]

In article >,
Tank Fixer > writes:
> In article >,
> on 30 Aug 2004 22:39:17 GMT,
> ArtKramr attempted to say .....
>
>> >Subject: Re: Why didn't Bush fight?
>> >From: "Steven P. McNicoll"
>> >Date: 8/30/2004 3:32 PM Pacific Standard Time
>> >Message-id: et>
>> >
>> >
>> >"ian maclure" > wrote in message
>> ...
>> >> On Mon, 30 Aug 2004 09:21:01 -0500, Lone Haranguer wrote:
>> >>
>> >>> He got his Rhodes scholarship through his politcal work for Fulbright,
>> >>> not through academic merit.
>> >>> LZ
>> >>
>> >> And only got to use it because he hid out in ROTC until the
>> >> danger of being called up had passed.
>> >>
>> >
>> >Clinton was never in ROTC. He made a commitment to ROTC but reneged on it.
>>
>>
>> When it comes to reneging Bush is king of the hill. At least Clinton didn't
>> join the reserve and then go AWOL. Besides Clinton was a great president. Bush
>> was th worst in history. Wish Clinton were back in office right now.
>
> Clinton signed the agreement to go ROTC. Once safely in England he wrote
> saying how he never intended to go in and loathed the military.
>
> So much for your hero Art.

Well, if the requirement be that the Candidate be a True War Hero,
they keep missing one of the best of the lot.
Consider, if you will, a man who volunteered and served nobly through
4 years of frontline Hell, decorated for Heroism, and wounded
severely. A sentimental man, who liked children and dogs, and wasn't
afraid to weep at a beautiful sunset. An accomplished politician,
willing to go to jail for his beliefs, and a strong man who'll make
sure that Those *******s Get Theirs!
Just the things the Usenet Democrats claim are the prime qualities of
a Presidential Candidate.

I give you, of course, Adolf Hitler.


Let us now invoke Godwin's Law, and declare these threads over.


Actually, on studying the 1940 Presidential campaign, the number of
Midwestern Progressives (Then the highly Liberal Wing of teh
Democratic Party) threw in with the Germans. Many accepted campaign
conributions (To the tune of about 5 Million 1940 Dollars), and quite
a few actually made it into the Abwehr's books as Paid Agents.
(Including John L. Louis, head of the United Mine Workers)

--
Pete Stickney
A strong conviction that something must be done is the parent of many
bad measures. -- Daniel Webster

[Tank Fixer]

In article >,
on Mon, 30 Aug 2004 18:15:58 -0700,
Steve Hix attempted to say .....

> In article >,
> Tank Fixer > wrote:
>
> > In article >,
> > on 31 Aug 2004 00:24:30 GMT,
> > OXMORON1 attempted to say .....
> >
> > > Art bellowed:
> > > >When it comes to reneging Bush is king of the hill. At least Clinton
> > > >didn't
> > > >join the reserve and then go AWOL. Besides Clinton was a great president.
> > > >Bush
> > > >was th worst in history. Wish Clinton were back in office right now.
> > > >
> > >
> > > Hell Art, Clinton signed up for advanced ROTC then reneged on the
> > > agreement.
> > > I will agreed that Clinton is not the worst President ever for the US, but
> > > he
> > > sure made a lot of others look real good.
> > >
> >
> > Made Milton Filmore look like agreat president...
>
> Not to mention Millard Fillmore. :}

DOH
Yeah, him too... ;')




--
When dealing with propaganda terminology one sometimes always speaks in
variable absolutes. This is not to be mistaken for an unbiased slant.

[Kevin Brooks]

"Peter Stickney" > wrote in message
...

<snip>

>
> Actually, on studying the 1940 Presidential campaign, the number of
> Midwestern Progressives (Then the highly Liberal Wing of teh
> Democratic Party) threw in with the Germans. Many accepted campaign
> conributions (To the tune of about 5 Million 1940 Dollars), and quite
> a few actually made it into the Abwehr's books as Paid Agents.
> (Including John L. Louis, head of the United Mine Workers)

That last bit is interesting, if not surprising. My Dad is a WWII vet, and
to this day the mere mention of John L. Lewis will invariably instigate a
long succession of unprintable words. John L. not only tried to sell us out
before we got into the war, but he threatened to strike while it was still
ongoing--striking for better wages at a time when the millions of men in
uniform were making a fraction of what the average UMW miner was bringing
home each week.

Brooks

>
> --
> Pete Stickney
> A strong conviction that something must be done is the parent of many
> bad measures. -- Daniel Webster

[Ian MacLure]

(ArtKramr) wrote in
:

[snip]

> When it comes to reneging Bush is king of the hill. At least Clinton
> didn't join the reserve and then go AWOL. Besides Clinton was a great

Bush served all of the term he was required to.
In fact most years he put in many times the hours he was
legally required to serve..

> president. Bush was th worst in history. Wish Clinton were back in
> office right now.

Klintoon is a lying pot-smoking philandering treasonous swine.
He left an economy coming apart to the incoming Bush administration.
Maybe you thought we hadn't noticed.

IBM

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[ArtKramr]

>Subject: Re: Why didn't Bush fight?
>From: Ian MacLure
>Date: 8/30/2004 10:19 PM Pacific Standard Time
>Message-id: >
>
>ZombyWoof > wrote in
:
>
>> On Sun, 29 Aug 2004 14:40:55 -0600, "S. O. Damocles" >
>> wrote something wonderfully witty:
>>
>>>ArtKramr wrote:
>>>> Anyone have a reasion? Any reason?
>>>
>>>Cowardice?
>>>
>> Could have been. But in order to know you have to be able to read a
>> mans soul. Can you do that?
>

When it comes to combat, men's souls ar easily read.


Arthur Kramer
344th BG 494th BS
England, France, Belgium, Holland, Germany
Visit my WW II B-26 website at:
http://www.coastcomp.com/artkramer

[OXMORON1]

I wrote:
>> > > I will agreed that Clinton is not the worst President ever for the US,
>but he sure made a lot of others look real good.
>> > >
Tank Fixer wrote:
>> > Made Milton Filmore look like agreat president...

He was caught with:
>> Not to mention Millard Fillmore. :}

He intoned
>DOH
>Yeah, him too... ;')
>
Darn Boy, I set 'em up for you and you blow the punch lines.

Rick Clark
Millard Fillmore appreciation Society

[Jack]

On 8/30/04 5:09 AM, in article , "William
Black" > wrote:

>
> "Jack" > wrote in message
> m...
>
>> You should have known that, but then your egregious cross-posting tells
>> us even more about you than does your apparent naivete.
>
> I didn't cross post anything, I didn't cut any groups either.
>
> You must be new to Usenet...
>
> (Awaits loud roar of anger that always erupts when someone is accused of
> being a newby)


No WB, I'm not new to USENET, but still capable of newby mistakes. For
example, I wondered where that last paragraph went concerning "egregious
cross-posting". I had thought that I deleted it.

As to cross-posting or cutting previously cross-posted NGs from a response,
I believe (whether it is USENET convention or not) that the list of NGs to
which a post is sent, even in response, is the responsibility of the poster.
I had no wish to post to or hear from anyone on alt.music.bush so I deleted
that NG from the address line of my response.

According to Google, the original thread seems to have come from ArtKramer
in soc.history.medieval --

Subject: Why didn't Bush fight in Viet Nam?
Date: 2004-02-17 07:02:54 PST

-- with no change in NG through all 15 messages.

But it seems it was Bob Coe's post which was "egregiously] cross-posted",
though I haven't yet found how the message made the jump from s.h.m. to
r.a.m. It's probably in Google somewhere for some meticulous person with a
lot of time on his hands to find.

Subject: babble, was Re: Why didn't Bush fight?

Newsgroups: alt.military.retired, alt.military.uk, alt.music.bush,
rec.aviation.military, sci.military.naval, soc.veterans,
us.military.army, us.military.national-guard
Date: 2004-08-29 13:59:09 PST

There have been several threads started with the word "Babble" in the title,
apparently as a follow-on not only to "Why didn't Bush fight in Viet Nam?"
and but also to others, so delving any further seems a waste of time. I'm
neither a proficient nor a determined miner of Google's USENET, so there is
more there than meets my eye no doubt, concerning the genealogy of the post
in question.

At worst, it seems to me that you only continued the cross-posting rather
than initiating it, and I suppose that including only one NG which I
considered inappropriate hardly makes it "egregious" anyway, so I apologize
to both you and Bob Cole for that.


--
Jack

[BUFDRVR]

ArtKramr wrote:

> Besides Clinton was a great president.

So the Kramer doctrine *now* says that you don't have to have military or
combat experience as long as your a great president????????????

You sorry, confused old man. How can you see into the future to determine if
someone is going to be a great president?

This really is beginning to look worse everyday....sad...


BUFDRVR

"Stay on the bomb run boys, I'm gonna get those bomb doors open if it harelips
everyone on Bear Creek"

[Tank Fixer]

In article >,
on 31 Aug 2004 14:02:40 GMT,
OXMORON1 attempted to say .....

> I wrote:
> >> > > I will agreed that Clinton is not the worst President ever for the US,
> >but he sure made a lot of others look real good.
> >> > >
> Tank Fixer wrote:
> >> > Made Milton Filmore look like agreat president...
>
> He was caught with:
> >> Not to mention Millard Fillmore. :}
>
> He intoned
> >DOH
> >Yeah, him too... ;')
> >
> Darn Boy, I set 'em up for you and you blow the punch lines.
>
> Rick Clark
> Millard Fillmore appreciation Society
>

I was suffering from coffee deficiency....

--
When dealing with propaganda terminology one sometimes always speaks in
variable absolutes. This is not to be mistaken for an unbiased slant.

[tscottme]

"Ragnar" > wrote in message
...
>
> "ArtKramr" > wrote in message
> ...
> > Anyone have a reasion? Any reason?
>
> Anyone have a reason? Any reason?
>

You mean there are people in the NG that haven't locked Kramer in the kill
file? Why? You can get all of the useful stories from Kramer by reading
his web pages and avoid 100% of his drivel. "It's a good thing."

--
Scott

"I have always felt that a politician is to be judged by the animosities he
excites among his opponents." - Sir Winston Churchill

[Tank Fixer]

In article >,
on Mon, 30 Aug 2004 22:27:41 -0400,
Peter Stickney attempted to say .....

> In article >,
> Tank Fixer > writes:
> > In article >,
> > on 30 Aug 2004 22:39:17 GMT,
> > ArtKramr attempted to say .....
> >
> >> >Subject: Re: Why didn't Bush fight?
> >> >From: "Steven P. McNicoll"
> >> >Date: 8/30/2004 3:32 PM Pacific Standard Time
> >> >Message-id: et>
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >"ian maclure" > wrote in message
> >> ...
> >> >> On Mon, 30 Aug 2004 09:21:01 -0500, Lone Haranguer wrote:
> >> >>
> >> >>> He got his Rhodes scholarship through his politcal work for Fulbright,
> >> >>> not through academic merit.
> >> >>> LZ
> >> >>
> >> >> And only got to use it because he hid out in ROTC until the
> >> >> danger of being called up had passed.
> >> >>
> >> >
> >> >Clinton was never in ROTC. He made a commitment to ROTC but reneged on it.
> >>
> >>
> >> When it comes to reneging Bush is king of the hill. At least Clinton didn't
> >> join the reserve and then go AWOL. Besides Clinton was a great president. Bush
> >> was th worst in history. Wish Clinton were back in office right now.
> >
> > Clinton signed the agreement to go ROTC. Once safely in England he wrote
> > saying how he never intended to go in and loathed the military.
> >
> > So much for your hero Art.
>
> Well, if the requirement be that the Candidate be a True War Hero,
> they keep missing one of the best of the lot.
> Consider, if you will, a man who volunteered and served nobly through
> 4 years of frontline Hell, decorated for Heroism, and wounded
> severely. A sentimental man, who liked children and dogs, and wasn't
> afraid to weep at a beautiful sunset. An accomplished politician,
> willing to go to jail for his beliefs, and a strong man who'll make
> sure that Those *******s Get Theirs!
> Just the things the Usenet Democrats claim are the prime qualities of
> a Presidential Candidate.

I was only asking him to consider his hero in light of the truth.


> I give you, of course, Adolf Hitler.

No thanks, not a democrat.....

>
> Let us now invoke Godwin's Law, and declare these threads over.
>
>
> Actually, on studying the 1940 Presidential campaign, the number of
> Midwestern Progressives (Then the highly Liberal Wing of teh
> Democratic Party) threw in with the Germans. Many accepted campaign
> conributions (To the tune of about 5 Million 1940 Dollars), and quite
> a few actually made it into the Abwehr's books as Paid Agents.
> (Including John L. Louis, head of the United Mine Workers)

Sad..


--
When dealing with propaganda terminology one sometimes always speaks in
variable absolutes. This is not to be mistaken for an unbiased slant.

[Bob Coe]

"ArtKramr" > wrote
> >>>> Anyone have a reasion? Any reason?
> >>>
> >>>Cowardice?
> >>>
> >> Could have been. But in order to know you have to be able to read a
> >> mans soul. Can you do that?
>
> When it comes to combat, men's souls ar easily read.

Really!!?? Interesting. I've never been able to read a mans soul, but I'd
be interested in learning how. Especially via the television.

[ArtKramr]

>Subject: Re: Why can't Art stay on-topic?
>From: "tscottme"
>Date: 8/31/2004 2:32 PM Pacific Standard Time
>Message-id: >
>
>"Ragnar" > wrote in message
...
>>
>> "ArtKramr" > wrote in message
>> ...
>> > Anyone have a reasion? Any reason?
>>
>> Anyone have a reason? Any reason?
>>
>
>You mean there are people in the NG that haven't locked Kramer in the kill
>file? Why? You can get all of the useful stories from Kramer by reading
>his web pages and avoid 100% of his drivel. "It's a good thing."
>
>--
>Scott
>

Excellant advice. Go tro my webpages and stop bothering me. I am back at school
now and have less time for crap.




Arthur Kramer
344th BG 494th BS
England, France, Belgium, Holland, Germany
Visit my WW II B-26 website at:
http://www.coastcomp.com/artkramer

[BUFDRVR]

Bob Coe wrote:

>> When it comes to combat, men's souls ar easily read.
>
>Really!!?? Interesting. I've never been able to read a mans soul, but I'd
>be interested in learning how.

Only Kramer can do it. He also has the power to determine who will make a good
president before the election, that way he knows which non-combat experienced
politicians to vote for. Its real easy though, if they have a (D) after there
name, its a sure sign, no matter their lack of military experience ;)


BUFDRVR

"Stay on the bomb run boys, I'm gonna get those bomb doors open if it harelips
everyone on Bear Creek"

[OXMORON1]

Art wrote:
>Excellant advice. Go tro my webpages and stop bothering me. I am back at
>school
>now and have less time for crap.
>
>
So, you admit to have been putting out crap?

Rick Clark

[Bob Coe]

"BUFDRVR" > wrote
> Bob Coe wrote:
>
> >> When it comes to combat, men's souls ar easily read.
> >
> >Really!!?? Interesting. I've never been able to read a mans soul, but I'd
> >be interested in learning how.
>
> Only Kramer can do it. He also has the power to determine who will make a good
> president before the election, that way he knows which non-combat experienced
> politicians to vote for. Its real easy though, if they have a (D) after there
> name, its a sure sign, no matter their lack of military experience ;)

The man is a God. I'm almost sure we should be kissing his feet and
throwing rose petals in front of his path :-)

[Jarg]

"ArtKramr" > wrote in message
...
> >Subject: Re: Why can't Art stay on-topic?
>
>
> Excellant advice. Go tro my webpages and stop bothering me. I am back at
school
> now and have less time for crap.
>
>
>
>
> Arthur Kramer
> 344th BG 494th BS
> England, France, Belgium, Holland, Germany
> Visit my WW II B-26 website at:
> http://www.coastcomp.com/artkramer
>

I for one sincerely hope you learn something while in school.

Jarg

[BUFDRVR]

Bob Coe wrote:

>The man is a God. I'm almost sure we should be kissing his feet and
>throwing rose petals in front of his path :-)

I have no doubt he would take that in stride.


BUFDRVR

"Stay on the bomb run boys, I'm gonna get those bomb doors open if it harelips
everyone on Bear Creek"

[Ed Majden]

in article et, Steven P.
McNicoll at wrote on 8/30/04 13:31:

>
> "Kyle Boatright" > wrote in message
> ...
>>
>> I added Art to the wastebin a couple of months ago. He has a lot to offer
>> the group as an ex-WWII aircrew, but his signal to noise ratio is way
>> outta
>> whack.
>>
>
> Even his stuff about WWII B-26 ops is of little value as his memory is now
> so poor he can't separate fact from fantasy.
>
>
Get off of Art's back. He has definitely earned the right to his
opinions as a WWII active duty vet. How many of you did the same??????
WWII is a long time ago and all these stories will soon be missed and lost.

Ed

retired RCAF/CAF with 1 Air Div Europe & NORAD fighter bases.

[Steven P. McNicoll]

"Ed Majden" > wrote in message
...
>
> Get off of Art's back.
>

Nobody is on Art's back.


>
> He has definitely earned the right to his opinions as a WWII active
> duty vet.
>

Everyone has a right to his opinion, it does not have to be earned.


>
> How many of you did the same??????
> WWII is a long time ago and all these stories will soon be missed and
> lost.
>

Art has said things that are demonstrably untrue, his stories are thus
unreliable.

[Kevin Brooks]

"Ed Majden" > wrote in message
...
> in article et, Steven
P.
> McNicoll at wrote on 8/30/04 13:31:
>
> >
> > "Kyle Boatright" > wrote in message
> > ...
> >>
> >> I added Art to the wastebin a couple of months ago. He has a lot to
offer
> >> the group as an ex-WWII aircrew, but his signal to noise ratio is way
> >> outta
> >> whack.
> >>
> >
> > Even his stuff about WWII B-26 ops is of little value as his memory is
now
> > so poor he can't separate fact from fantasy.
> >
> >
> Get off of Art's back. He has definitely earned the right to his
> opinions as a WWII active duty vet.

He has not earned the right to putting out false "facts", however. Nor, IMO,
has he "earned" any right to defame the efforts of the millions of other
vets who served during WWII, and afterwards, who performed duties other than
those exact ones that he supposedly performed.

> How many of you did the same??????

A lot of us have served; most of us were not even born when WWII was fought.
Most of us hold WWII vets in high regard--but that does not mean that every
WWII vet gets a "free ride" in terms of being allowed to lie, distort, libel
other veterans, etc. All of which Art has been proven to do.

> WWII is a long time ago and all these stories will soon be missed and
lost.

Only the true ones. But stories like, "We NEVER missed our target" (yeah,
right--unfortunately, the available records of the day don't bear that one
out), "The Guard was sitting at home when I went off to win the war" (nope
again--the Guard had been mobilized in its entirety some three years or so
before Art graduated from freakin' high school), "I was in the trenches
during the Ardennes...er, no, I was at 10,000 feet above those battles...",
etc., serve no purpose other than to perpetrate further historical
inaccuracy.

>
> Ed
>
> retired RCAF/CAF with 1 Air Div Europe & NORAD fighter bases.

But in Art's book, you did not do squat; he has gone on record as indicating
that the Cold War vets are mere dirt suitable only to be scraped from his
shoes.

Brooks

>

[Tank Fixer]

In article >,
on Wed, 01 Sep 2004 14:03:42 GMT,
Ed Majden attempted to say .....

> in article et, Steven P.
> McNicoll at wrote on 8/30/04 13:31:
>
> >
> > "Kyle Boatright" > wrote in message
> > ...
> >>
> >> I added Art to the wastebin a couple of months ago. He has a lot to offer
> >> the group as an ex-WWII aircrew, but his signal to noise ratio is way
> >> outta
> >> whack.
> >>
> >
> > Even his stuff about WWII B-26 ops is of little value as his memory is now
> > so poor he can't separate fact from fantasy.
> >
> >
> Get off of Art's back. He has definitely earned the right to his
> opinions as a WWII active duty vet. How many of you did the same??????
> WWII is a long time ago and all these stories will soon be missed and lost.

He certainly has the right to his opinions.
But lately Art isn't talking about WW2 but about his opinons of how great
Clinton was and how great Kerry would be as president..

--
When dealing with propaganda terminology one sometimes always speaks in
variable absolutes. This is not to be mistaken for an unbiased slant.

[ArtKramr]

>Subject: Re: Why doesn't Art think?
>From: "Steven P. McNicoll"
>Date: 9/1/2004 7:17 AM Pacific Standard Time
>Message-id: >
>
>
>"Ed Majden" > wrote in message
...
>>
>> Get off of Art's back.
>>
>
>Nobody is on Art's back.
>
>
>>
>> He has definitely earned the right to his opinions as a WWII active
>> duty vet.
>>
>
>Everyone has a right to his opinion, it does not have to be earned.
>
>
>>
>> How many of you did the same??????
>> WWII is a long time ago and all these stories will soon be missed and
>> lost.
>>
>
>Art has said things that are demonstrably untrue, his stories are thus
>unreliable.


How would you know wannabee?


Arthur Kramer
344th BG 494th BS
England, France, Belgium, Holland, Germany
Visit my WW II B-26 website at:
http://www.coastcomp.com/artkramer

[Kevin Brooks]

"ArtKramr" > wrote in message
...
> >Subject: Re: Why doesn't Art think?
> >From: "Steven P. McNicoll"
> >Date: 9/1/2004 7:17 AM Pacific Standard Time
> >Message-id: >
> >
> >
> >"Ed Majden" > wrote in message
> ...
> >>
> >> Get off of Art's back.
> >>
> >
> >Nobody is on Art's back.
> >
> >
> >>
> >> He has definitely earned the right to his opinions as a WWII active
> >> duty vet.
> >>
> >
> >Everyone has a right to his opinion, it does not have to be earned.
> >
> >
> >>
> >> How many of you did the same??????
> >> WWII is a long time ago and all these stories will soon be missed and
> >> lost.
> >>
> >
> >Art has said things that are demonstrably untrue, his stories are thus
> >unreliable.
>
>
> How would you know wannabee?

Art, for the last time...nobody around here has *any* desire to be like you,
since that would require a frontal lobotomy gone wrong, massive doses of
mind-numbing drugs, and psychiatric treatment to remove one's sense of
conscience. So the "wannabe" stuff is just fantasizing on your part.

Brooks

>
>
> Arthur Kramer

[Steven P. McNicoll]

"ArtKramr" > wrote in message
...
>
> How would you know
>

Because I've demonstrated them to be untrue.

[Ed Majden]

in article , Tank Fixer at
wrote on 9/1/04 10:45:

>
> He certainly has the right to his opinions.
> But lately Art isn't talking about WW2 but about his opinons of how great
> Clinton was and how great Kerry would be as president..

I guess you then must disagree with 50% of your own countrymen. Some
think President Bush stole the election so this number may in fact be more
than 50%. Note, I treat President Bush with great respect because of the
office he holds. I may disagree with some of his ideas however. Unlike some
of you that seem to have tunnel vision!
Ed

[OXMORON1]

Art bellowed:
>How would you know wannabee?
>
>

Art don't you know any other words to use? For a college student your
vocabulary is limited lately.
According to you everyone not an aircrew member in the 344BG, 494BS in the ETO
during WWII is a "wannabee" (with the possible favorable comments that you have
given to airborne troopers).
How about the 20th Maine at Gettysburg? No wait we can't mention them, they
were Militia, aka National Guard, therfore useless according to your comments.
How about the 45th Division in Italy or Korea? No wait again, useless National
Guard!
We know your feelings about groundcrew members and in the past week you have
called Bufdrvr an "Asshole" and told other people to go screw themselves. Not
appropriate behavior for an officer, but wait you never got higher than Flight
Officer, aka Warrant Officer, therefore you don't have to follow any rules of
decency.
Go the hell back to school!

Rick Clark

[Steven P. McNicoll]

"Ed Majden" > wrote in message
...
>
> I guess you then must disagree with 50% of your own countrymen. Some
> think President Bush stole the election so this number may in fact be more
> than 50%.
>

Actually, few think Bush stole the election, and nobody that understands how
the president is elected thinks so.

[Kevin Brooks]

"Ed Majden" > wrote in message
...
> in article , Tank Fixer
at
> wrote on 9/1/04 10:45:
>
> >
> > He certainly has the right to his opinions.
> > But lately Art isn't talking about WW2 but about his opinons of how
great
> > Clinton was and how great Kerry would be as president..
>
> I guess you then must disagree with 50% of your own countrymen.

What, you think 50% of us think Art has *not* been directing his new threads
at polical subjects?

Some
> think President Bush stole the election so this number may in fact be more
> than 50%.

Only idiots think the election was "stolen"; anybody capable of
comprehending what the electoral system is all about has no such thoughts.

Note, I treat President Bush with great respect because of the
> office he holds. I may disagree with some of his ideas however. Unlike
some
> of you that seem to have tunnel vision!

Like Art, you mean?

Brooks

> Ed
>

[Steven P. McNicoll]

"OXMORON1" > wrote in message
...
>
> Art don't you know any other words to use? For a college student your
> vocabulary is limited lately.
>

College student? I thought he was working toward a GED.

[Tank Fixer]

In article >,
on 01 Sep 2004 18:58:55 GMT,
OXMORON1 attempted to say .....

>
> How about the 20th Maine at Gettysburg? No wait we can't mention them, they
> were Militia, aka National Guard, therfore useless according to your comments.

Lead by a school teacher at that....


--
When dealing with propaganda terminology one sometimes always speaks in
variable absolutes. This is not to be mistaken for an unbiased slant.

[Tank Fixer]

In article >,
on Wed, 01 Sep 2004 18:55:26 GMT,
Ed Majden attempted to say .....

> in article , Tank Fixer at
> wrote on 9/1/04 10:45:
>
> >
> > He certainly has the right to his opinions.
> > But lately Art isn't talking about WW2 but about his opinons of how great
> > Clinton was and how great Kerry would be as president..
>
> I guess you then must disagree with 50% of your own countrymen. Some
> think President Bush stole the election so this number may in fact be more
> than 50%. Note, I treat President Bush with great respect because of the
> office he holds. I may disagree with some of his ideas however. Unlike some
> of you that seem to have tunnel vision!

1) I doubt it's 50%, more like a very vocal 20% or 30%, IMHO.

2) Not sure what tunnel vision you might be talking about. For me it's a
choice between one who has made some mistakes and one who, although in a
position to get a great deal done has for 20+ years done nothing.



--
When dealing with propaganda terminology one sometimes always speaks in
variable absolutes. This is not to be mistaken for an unbiased slant.

[Leslie Swartz]

Not likely . . . by his own admission, it has taken him 4 years to pass 2
years worth of "Constitutional Law."

Steve Swartz

"Jarg" > wrote in message
. com...
> "ArtKramr" > wrote in message
> ...
> > >Subject: Re: Why can't Art stay on-topic?
> >
> >
> > Excellant advice. Go tro my webpages and stop bothering me. I am back at
> school
> > now and have less time for crap.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Arthur Kramer
> > 344th BG 494th BS
> > England, France, Belgium, Holland, Germany
> > Visit my WW II B-26 website at:
> > http://www.coastcomp.com/artkramer
> >
>
> I for one sincerely hope you learn something while in school.
>
> Jarg
>
>

[Jack]

rrussell wrote:

> a politician should definitely be decisive and also courageous, but in a
> completely other way than soldiers. or am i just dreaming this up?

No, you are not dreaming: it is the electorate that are apparently
asleep. The real problems of today are something both parties feel they
should avoid.

This does not bode well for the future.


Jack

[sfb]

The real problems are too complex for the main stream media to report so
they focus on thirty year old so called scandals that have little or no
bearing on today's world.

"Jack" > wrote in message
...
> rrussell wrote:
>
>> a politician should definitely be decisive and also courageous, but in a
>> completely other way than soldiers. or am i just dreaming this up?
>
> No, you are not dreaming: it is the electorate that are apparently asleep.
> The real problems of today are something both parties feel they should
> avoid.
>
> This does not bode well for the future.
>
>
> Jack

[Colin Campbell]

>rrussell wrote:
>
>> a politician should definitely be decisive and also courageous, but in a
>> completely other way than soldiers. or am i just dreaming this up?

A soldier is expected to have both physical and moral courage. Why
should we not expect any less from our civilian leaders?


--
"It's not American foreign policy, or the plight of the
Palestinians, or America's longstanding support for Israel.
A group of people with money and weaponry have simply
decided that we, as a civilization, are unfit to live, and
want, eventally, to exterminate us."
'Christian Century' magazine

[Howard Berkowitz]

In article >,
(remove underscore) wrote:

> >rrussell wrote:
> >
> >> a politician should definitely be decisive and also courageous, but in
> >> a
> >> completely other way than soldiers. or am i just dreaming this up?
>
> A soldier is expected to have both physical and moral courage. Why
> should we not expect any less from our civilian leaders?
>
Moral, yes. One would hope that the Secret Service, Homeland Security,
NORAD, etc., all contribute to a lack of a requirement for physical
courage.

[Colin Campbell]

On Sun, 12 Sep 2004 11:14:16 -0400, Howard Berkowitz
> wrote:

>In article >,
(remove underscore) wrote:
>
>> >rrussell wrote:
>> >
>> >> a politician should definitely be decisive and also courageous, but in
>> >> a
>> >> completely other way than soldiers. or am i just dreaming this up?
>>
>> A soldier is expected to have both physical and moral courage. Why
>> should we not expect any less from our civilian leaders?
>>
>Moral, yes. One would hope that the Secret Service, Homeland Security,
>NORAD, etc., all contribute to a lack of a requirement for physical
>courage.

After 9/11 President Bush did not believe that he would survive his
term as President.

He felt that if he did what he believed needed to be done Al Queda
would eventually kill him - and he did it anyway.



--
"It's not American foreign policy, or the plight of the
Palestinians, or America's longstanding support for Israel.
A group of people with money and weaponry have simply
decided that we, as a civilization, are unfit to live, and
want, eventally, to exterminate us."
'Christian Century' magazine

[Guinnog65]

"Kevin Brooks" > wrote in message
...
>
> "Bob Coe" > wrote in message
> news:RavYc.15665$ni.6189@okepread01...
>> "ArtKramr" > wrote
>> > >
>> > > Then a 4 month rush of wounds and Purple Hearts,and he's on his way
> home.
>> >
>> > Same with a lot of guys who hit Omaha Beach, The Hurtgen Forest and
> Bastogne.
>>
>> I thought you were at 10,000 feet? How would you know?
>
> One minute he is telling us he was at 10K feet, the next he is telling us
> he
> was in the trenches during the Ardennes Campaign.

Where did he say that? I must have missed it.

>Actually, Art's stories
> are beginning to sound a lot like Kerry's--lots of contradictions created
> by
> the storyteller himself, and repeated refusal to address those
> contradictions.

Please don't feel you have to drag in the US elections to every single post.
It bores people.

[Kevin Brooks]

"Guinnog65" > wrote in message
...
> "Kevin Brooks" > wrote in message
> ...
>>
>> "Bob Coe" > wrote in message
>> news:RavYc.15665$ni.6189@okepread01...
>>> "ArtKramr" > wrote
>>> > >
>>> > > Then a 4 month rush of wounds and Purple Hearts,and he's on his way
>> home.
>>> >
>>> > Same with a lot of guys who hit Omaha Beach, The Hurtgen Forest and
>> Bastogne.
>>>
>>> I thought you were at 10,000 feet? How would you know?
>>
>> One minute he is telling us he was at 10K feet, the next he is telling us
>> he
>> was in the trenches during the Ardennes Campaign.
>
> Where did he say that? I must have missed it.

Then you missed it. he earlier told us how he and other airmen were
organized into a ground combat unit and manned trenches during the Battle of
the Bulge. Kind of depends on which day he is telling the story as to
whether he was at 10K up or 4 ft down.

>
>>Actually, Art's stories
>> are beginning to sound a lot like Kerry's--lots of contradictions created
>> by
>> the storyteller himself, and repeated refusal to address those
>> contradictions.
>
> Please don't feel you have to drag in the US elections to every single
> post. It bores people.

Uhmmm...you must have missed the thread's title, eh? Might want to brush up
on that whole "reading comprehension" thing.

Brooks

>
>