Question for Ed Rasimus or anyone else who knows the answer.

[ikke]

Ed,

As I'm planning to build a model of a Combat Martin F-105F, I was wondering
if you could shed some light on a question I cannot seem to find an answer
to, inspite of the dozen books on the F-105 in my library and the mass of
information on the Internet.
Here is what I already know: the F-105F's that were modified for the Combat
Martin programme received a large blade areal behind the rear cockpit and
also had the rear ejection seat removed to make room for the electronics
associated with the programme.
What I don't know: was the rear cockpit also stripped of side consoles,
stick and instrument panel? What shape and size were the block boxes that
replaced the bang seat? Pictures availlable show nothing above the canopy
sills. Would the entire back tub been covered with a tarp, like the "hell
hole" behind the F-18 pilot?
Perhaps you can point met to some pictures that show the interior of the
rear cockpit?

tia,

Steven

[Ed Rasimus]

On Mon, 30 Aug 2004 10:14:48 GMT, "ikke" > wrote:

>Ed,
>
>As I'm planning to build a model of a Combat Martin F-105F, I was wondering
>if you could shed some light on a question I cannot seem to find an answer
>to, inspite of the dozen books on the F-105 in my library and the mass of
>information on the Internet.
>Here is what I already know: the F-105F's that were modified for the Combat
>Martin programme received a large blade areal behind the rear cockpit and
>also had the rear ejection seat removed to make room for the electronics
>associated with the programme.
>What I don't know: was the rear cockpit also stripped of side consoles,
>stick and instrument panel? What shape and size were the block boxes that
>replaced the bang seat? Pictures availlable show nothing above the canopy
>sills. Would the entire back tub been covered with a tarp, like the "hell
>hole" behind the F-18 pilot?
>Perhaps you can point met to some pictures that show the interior of the
>rear cockpit?

You've probably already checked Dennis Jenkin's "F-105 Thunderchief",
pp 103-104 which offers a short description of the Combat Martin
program and a pair of pix of the airplane with the blade antenna.
That's all I know about the program as it was after my tenure in the
F-105 and by the time I returned to Korat in the F-4 all of the CM
aircraft had been modded to F-105G status.

The text from Jenkin's says only that the seat and instrument panel
were removed for the ALQ-59 comm jammer system. Certainly if the seat
had to be removed, it can be assumed that the stick would come out as
well--but, that's not a great mod. It's unlikely that the side
consoles would be removed, because the constraint of the fuselage
canopy rails would limit the size of the package that could be
inserted (unless the CM system was multiple boxes rather than a single
unit. I honestly don't know.

Jenkin's reports further that the CM system was never employed over
NVN and the airplanes were used as basic bomb-droppers, flown solo
from the front seat (no real problem here, since the F-model was
regularly flown that way in RTU by students). Because of the
sensitivity of the equipment, the airplane was restricted in bombing
parameters and target areas. (During the period in question, bombing
of NVN was halted.)

Why model a very minimal and apparently unsuccessful program? Why not
a T-stick II or Ryan's Raider F-model?


Ed Rasimus
Fighter Pilot (USAF-Ret)
"When Thunder Rolled"
"Phantom Flights, Bangkok Nights"
Both from Smithsonian Books
***www.thunderchief.org

[ikke]

Hi again Ed,

Thanks for your swift reply.
The book you mention isn't in my library, I'll try to get hold of a copy.
These however I *do* have, but while most of them mention CM, and some even
have pictures, none of them has a picture of that rear cockpit:

F-105 Thunderchief (Detail & Scale) Bert Kinzey
F-105 Thunderchief, Warbirds Illustrated 49, Robert F. Dorr
F-105 Thunderchief, Kev Darling
F-105 Thunderchief in action, Lou Drendel
F-105 Thunderchief in action, 2nd edition, Ken Neubeck
Republic F-105 Thunderchief, David Anderton
Thud, Lou Drendel
Walk Around F-105Thunderchief, Ken Neubeck
Century Series, Lou Drendel
Century series fighters, F-100 Super Sabre - F-106 Delta Dart, Peter R.
Foster
Wild Weasel, The SAM suppression story, Larry Davis
....and of course When thunder rolled.

As to why I would model a "fartin' Martin" : I'm currently modelling all
aircraft types that caried out the Wild Weasel mission.
Browsing through my documentation, I've found out that one of the aircraft
modified to CM was later converted to a G-model and survived the war.
In the 80ies Monogram made a kit of this particular G-type (nicknamed Mutley
the Flying Dog), which I bought during my military service some 20 years
ago.
I thought it would be neat to have the two of them next to eachother on the
shelf.
A Ryan's Raider is also on my list, provided I can find another of these
Monogram F-105F's.
The T-StickII is not very high on my list, as it was never used in SEA, and
the C&M conversion kit is more expensive than the kit itself.

Anyhow, once more my sincere gratitude for your answer.
Eventhough I'm not all that much the wiser, I think I now know enough to
tackle the matter.
After all: if *you* can't tell, who in IPMS Gent will be able to prove wrong
my efforts?

PS: take a look at my latest baby on:
http://users.pandora.be/IPMS.GENT/een%20verkennings%20phantom%20E.htm


Cheers,

Steven


"Ed Rasimus" > wrote in message
...
> On Mon, 30 Aug 2004 10:14:48 GMT, "ikke" > wrote:
>
> >Ed,
> >
> >As I'm planning to build a model of a Combat Martin F-105F, I was
wondering
> >if you could shed some light on a question I cannot seem to find an
answer
> >to, inspite of the dozen books on the F-105 in my library and the mass of
> >information on the Internet.
> >Here is what I already know: the F-105F's that were modified for the
Combat
> >Martin programme received a large blade areal behind the rear cockpit and
> >also had the rear ejection seat removed to make room for the electronics
> >associated with the programme.
> >What I don't know: was the rear cockpit also stripped of side consoles,
> >stick and instrument panel? What shape and size were the block boxes that
> >replaced the bang seat? Pictures availlable show nothing above the canopy
> >sills. Would the entire back tub been covered with a tarp, like the "hell
> >hole" behind the F-18 pilot?
> >Perhaps you can point met to some pictures that show the interior of the
> >rear cockpit?
>
> You've probably already checked Dennis Jenkin's "F-105 Thunderchief",
> pp 103-104 which offers a short description of the Combat Martin
> program and a pair of pix of the airplane with the blade antenna.
> That's all I know about the program as it was after my tenure in the
> F-105 and by the time I returned to Korat in the F-4 all of the CM
> aircraft had been modded to F-105G status.
>
> The text from Jenkin's says only that the seat and instrument panel
> were removed for the ALQ-59 comm jammer system. Certainly if the seat
> had to be removed, it can be assumed that the stick would come out as
> well--but, that's not a great mod. It's unlikely that the side
> consoles would be removed, because the constraint of the fuselage
> canopy rails would limit the size of the package that could be
> inserted (unless the CM system was multiple boxes rather than a single
> unit. I honestly don't know.
>
> Jenkin's reports further that the CM system was never employed over
> NVN and the airplanes were used as basic bomb-droppers, flown solo
> from the front seat (no real problem here, since the F-model was
> regularly flown that way in RTU by students). Because of the
> sensitivity of the equipment, the airplane was restricted in bombing
> parameters and target areas. (During the period in question, bombing
> of NVN was halted.)
>
> Why model a very minimal and apparently unsuccessful program? Why not
> a T-stick II or Ryan's Raider F-model?
>
>
> Ed Rasimus
> Fighter Pilot (USAF-Ret)
> "When Thunder Rolled"
> "Phantom Flights, Bangkok Nights"
> Both from Smithsonian Books
> ***www.thunderchief.org

[Ed Rasimus]

On Mon, 30 Aug 2004 15:06:08 GMT, "ikke" > wrote:

>Hi again Ed,
>
>Thanks for your swift reply.
>The book you mention isn't in my library, I'll try to get hold of a copy.
>These however I *do* have, but while most of them mention CM, and some even
>have pictures, none of them has a picture of that rear cockpit:
>
>F-105 Thunderchief (Detail & Scale) Bert Kinzey
>F-105 Thunderchief, Warbirds Illustrated 49, Robert F. Dorr
>F-105 Thunderchief, Kev Darling
>F-105 Thunderchief in action, Lou Drendel
>F-105 Thunderchief in action, 2nd edition, Ken Neubeck
>Republic F-105 Thunderchief, David Anderton
>Thud, Lou Drendel
>Walk Around F-105Thunderchief, Ken Neubeck
>Century Series, Lou Drendel
>Century series fighters, F-100 Super Sabre - F-106 Delta Dart, Peter R.
>Foster
>Wild Weasel, The SAM suppression story, Larry Davis
>...and of course When thunder rolled.
>
>As to why I would model a "fartin' Martin" : I'm currently modelling all
>aircraft types that caried out the Wild Weasel mission.
>Browsing through my documentation, I've found out that one of the aircraft
>modified to CM was later converted to a G-model and survived the war.
>In the 80ies Monogram made a kit of this particular G-type (nicknamed Mutley
>the Flying Dog), which I bought during my military service some 20 years
>ago.
>I thought it would be neat to have the two of them next to eachother on the
>shelf.
>A Ryan's Raider is also on my list, provided I can find another of these
>Monogram F-105F's.
>The T-StickII is not very high on my list, as it was never used in SEA, and
>the C&M conversion kit is more expensive than the kit itself.
>
>Anyhow, once more my sincere gratitude for your answer.
>Eventhough I'm not all that much the wiser, I think I now know enough to
>tackle the matter.
>After all: if *you* can't tell, who in IPMS Gent will be able to prove wrong
>my efforts?
>
>PS: take a look at my latest baby on:
>http://users.pandora.be/IPMS.GENT/een%20verkennings%20phantom%20E.htm
>
>
>Cheers,
>
>Steven

I looked at another resource after your reply, Anthony Thornborough's
"Iron Hand: Smashing the Enemy's Air Defenses" and found another brief
reference to Combat Martin. He lists the system as QRC-128 and offers
the crew's nickname for the installation: "Colonel Computer". He cites
the system purpose as comm jamming for the GCI-MiG communication
channels during a close escort role in the high-threat environment. (I
did quite a bit of correspondence with Tony for the book and got a few
mentions throughout the text.)

Thornborough mentions that only one of the CM aircraft were lost, that
one being shot down in RP-1 and flown by Dave Winn. Winn retired in
Colorado and was a regent of the University of Colorado for several
years. I used to run into him occasionally, but I believe he passed
away a few years ago.

Let me inquire about CM to a couple of long tenure Weasels that I
correspond with and see if I can find you something a bit more
substantial.

BTW, your RF-4 is pretty impressive.


Ed Rasimus
Fighter Pilot (USAF-Ret)
"When Thunder Rolled"
"Phantom Flights, Bangkok Nights"
Both from Smithsonian Books
***www.thunderchief.org

[Harry Andreas]

In article >, Ed Rasimus
> wrote:

> On Mon, 30 Aug 2004 15:06:08 GMT, "ikke" > wrote:
>
> >Hi again Ed,
> >
> >Thanks for your swift reply.
> >The book you mention isn't in my library, I'll try to get hold of a copy.
> >These however I *do* have, but while most of them mention CM, and some even
> >have pictures, none of them has a picture of that rear cockpit:
> >
> >F-105 Thunderchief (Detail & Scale) Bert Kinzey
> >F-105 Thunderchief, Warbirds Illustrated 49, Robert F. Dorr
> >F-105 Thunderchief, Kev Darling
> >F-105 Thunderchief in action, Lou Drendel
> >F-105 Thunderchief in action, 2nd edition, Ken Neubeck
> >Republic F-105 Thunderchief, David Anderton
> >Thud, Lou Drendel
> >Walk Around F-105Thunderchief, Ken Neubeck
> >Century Series, Lou Drendel
> >Century series fighters, F-100 Super Sabre - F-106 Delta Dart, Peter R.
> >Foster
> >Wild Weasel, The SAM suppression story, Larry Davis
> >...and of course When thunder rolled.
> >
> >As to why I would model a "fartin' Martin" : I'm currently modelling all
> >aircraft types that caried out the Wild Weasel mission.
> >Browsing through my documentation, I've found out that one of the aircraft
> >modified to CM was later converted to a G-model and survived the war.
> >In the 80ies Monogram made a kit of this particular G-type (nicknamed Mutley
> >the Flying Dog), which I bought during my military service some 20 years
> >ago.
> >I thought it would be neat to have the two of them next to eachother on the
> >shelf.
> >A Ryan's Raider is also on my list, provided I can find another of these
> >Monogram F-105F's.
> >The T-StickII is not very high on my list, as it was never used in SEA, and
> >the C&M conversion kit is more expensive than the kit itself.
> >
> >Anyhow, once more my sincere gratitude for your answer.
> >Eventhough I'm not all that much the wiser, I think I now know enough to
> >tackle the matter.
> >After all: if *you* can't tell, who in IPMS Gent will be able to prove wrong
> >my efforts?
> >
> >PS: take a look at my latest baby on:
> >http://users.pandora.be/IPMS.GENT/een%20verkennings%20phantom%20E.htm
> >
> >
> >Cheers,
> >
> >Steven
>
> I looked at another resource after your reply, Anthony Thornborough's
> "Iron Hand: Smashing the Enemy's Air Defenses" and found another brief
> reference to Combat Martin. He lists the system as QRC-128 and offers
> the crew's nickname for the installation: "Colonel Computer". He cites
> the system purpose as comm jamming for the GCI-MiG communication
> channels during a close escort role in the high-threat environment. (I
> did quite a bit of correspondence with Tony for the book and got a few
> mentions throughout the text.)
>
> Thornborough mentions that only one of the CM aircraft were lost, that
> one being shot down in RP-1 and flown by Dave Winn. Winn retired in
> Colorado and was a regent of the University of Colorado for several
> years. I used to run into him occasionally, but I believe he passed
> away a few years ago.
>
> Let me inquire about CM to a couple of long tenure Weasels that I
> correspond with and see if I can find you something a bit more
> substantial.

Combat Martin system was built by Hallicrafters, which was bought
by Northrop in 1966. The Rolling Meadows organization.
There are probably some photos in the Northrop archives.
Rhetorical question: know anyone who worked for Northrop?

--
Harry Andreas
Engineering raconteur

[Ed Rasimus]

On Mon, 30 Aug 2004 09:28:55 -0700, (Harry
Andreas) wrote:

>Combat Martin system was built by Hallicrafters, which was bought
>by Northrop in 1966. The Rolling Meadows organization.
>There are probably some photos in the Northrop archives.
>Rhetorical question: know anyone who worked for Northrop?

Non-rhetorical answer, yes...me. Worked in Hawthorne on F-23 and a
couple of other smaller programs. Know a number of folks still out
there, but don't think that's a route to the answers sought here.
Hawthorne didn't even talk to Pico, let alone all the way to Rolling
Meadows. Very compartmentalized operation all around.


Ed Rasimus
Fighter Pilot (USAF-Ret)
"When Thunder Rolled"
"Phantom Flights, Bangkok Nights"
Both from Smithsonian Books
***www.thunderchief.org