Bomb in a pickle barrel from 10,000 feet

[ArtKramr]

The destruction of the Bridge at Verberie. Precision bombing at its best.


http://www.coastcomp.com/artkramer/bridge.htm


Arthur Kramer
344th BG 494th BS
England, France, Belgium, Holland, Germany
Visit my WW II B-26 website at:
http://www.coastcomp.com/artkramer

[Bob]

On 01 Sep 2004 20:12:24 GMT, (ArtKramr) wrote:

>The destruction of the Bridge at Verberie. Precision bombing at its best.
>http://www.coastcomp.com/artkramer/bridge.htm

And what about the bridge Croix St. Ouen, 2 miles north of Verberie?

[ArtKramr]

>Subject: Re: Bomb in a pickle barrel from 10,000 feet
>From: Bob
>Date: 9/1/2004 9:39 PM Pacific Standard Time
>Message-id: >
>
>On 01 Sep 2004 20:12:24 GMT, (ArtKramr) wrote:
>
>>The destruction of the Bridge at Verberie. Precision bombing at its best.
>>http://www.coastcomp.com/artkramer/bridge.htm
>
>And what about the bridge Croix St. Ouen, 2 miles north of Verberie?
>


What about it?.




Arthur Kramer
344th BG 494th BS
England, France, Belgium, Holland, Germany
Visit my WW II B-26 website at:
http://www.coastcomp.com/artkramer

[Bob]

On 02 Sep 2004 04:51:10 GMT, (ArtKramr) wrote:

>>Subject: Re: Bomb in a pickle barrel from 10,000 feet
>>From: Bob
>>Date: 9/1/2004 9:39 PM Pacific Standard Time
>>Message-id: >
>>
>>On 01 Sep 2004 20:12:24 GMT, (ArtKramr) wrote:
>>
>>>The destruction of the Bridge at Verberie. Precision bombing at its best.
>>>http://www.coastcomp.com/artkramer/bridge.htm
>>
>>And what about the bridge Croix St. Ouen, 2 miles north of Verberie?
>
>What about it?.

I figured you had pictures of that too. Couple bombers flying up or
down the river picking off bridges one by one with their precision
bombing?

[ArtKramr]

>Subject: Re: Bomb in a pickle barrel from 10,000 feet
>From: Bob
>Date: 9/1/2004 10:08 PM Pacific Standard Time
>Message-id: >
>
>On 02 Sep 2004 04:51:10 GMT, (ArtKramr) wrote:
>
>>>Subject: Re: Bomb in a pickle barrel from 10,000 feet
>>>From: Bob
>>>Date: 9/1/2004 9:39 PM Pacific Standard Time
>>>Message-id: >
>>>
>>>On 01 Sep 2004 20:12:24 GMT, (ArtKramr) wrote:
>>>
>>>>The destruction of the Bridge at Verberie. Precision bombing at its best.
>>>>http://www.coastcomp.com/artkramer/bridge.htm
>>>
>>>And what about the bridge Croix St. Ouen, 2 miles north of Verberie?
>>
>>What about it?.
>
>I figured you had pictures of that too. Couple bombers flying up or
>down the river picking off bridges one by one with their precision
>bombing?
>

Never hit that one. That may have been the 322nd Bomb Group.


Arthur Kramer
344th BG 494th BS
England, France, Belgium, Holland, Germany
Visit my WW II B-26 website at:
http://www.coastcomp.com/artkramer

[ArtKramr]

>Subject: Re: Bomb in a pickle barrel from 10,000 feet
>From: Bob
>Date: 9/1/2004 10:08 PM Pacific Standard Time
>Message-id: >
>
>On 02 Sep 2004 04:51:10 GMT, (ArtKramr) wrote:
>
>>>Subject: Re: Bomb in a pickle barrel from 10,000 feet
>>>From: Bob
>>>Date: 9/1/2004 9:39 PM Pacific Standard Time
>>>Message-id: >
>>>
>>>On 01 Sep 2004 20:12:24 GMT, (ArtKramr) wrote:
>>>
>>>>The destruction of the Bridge at Verberie. Precision bombing at its best.
>>>>http://www.coastcomp.com/artkramer/bridge.htm
>>>
>>>And what about the bridge Croix St. Ouen, 2 miles north of Verberie?
>>
>>What about it?.
>
>I figured you had pictures of that too. Couple bombers flying up or
>down the river picking off bridges one by one with their precision
>bombing?
>


We didn't operate that way. we didn't "fly up and down the river" looking for
targets. We planned the mission and flew the plan. The P-51's operated as you
described, not the Marauders.


Arthur Kramer
344th BG 494th BS
England, France, Belgium, Holland, Germany
Visit my WW II B-26 website at:
http://www.coastcomp.com/artkramer

[Bob]

On 02 Sep 2004 13:04:00 GMT, (ArtKramr) wrote:

>>Subject: Re: Bomb in a pickle barrel from 10,000 feet
>>From: Bob
>>Date: 9/1/2004 10:08 PM Pacific Standard Time
>>Message-id: >
>>
>>On 02 Sep 2004 04:51:10 GMT, (ArtKramr) wrote:

>>>>On 01 Sep 2004 20:12:24 GMT, (ArtKramr) wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>The destruction of the Bridge at Verberie. Precision bombing at its best.
>>>>>http://www.coastcomp.com/artkramer/bridge.htm
>>>>
>>>>And what about the bridge Croix St. Ouen, 2 miles north of Verberie?
>>>
>>>What about it?.
>>
>>I figured you had pictures of that too. Couple bombers flying up or
>>down the river picking off bridges one by one with their precision
>>bombing?
>
>We didn't operate that way. we didn't "fly up and down the river" looking for
>targets. We planned the mission and flew the plan. The P-51's operated as you
>described, not the Marauders.

One mission one target with an alternate? Target everything goes?
Just thinking line up the two bridges in a straight line for the run
in and hit one and then the other.

[OXMORON1]

Bob wrote:
>One mission one target with an alternate? Target everything goes?
>Just thinking line up the two bridges in a straight line for the run
>in and hit one and then the other.
>

It doesn't work that way.
Which airplane drops on which bridge? Why have the unloaded aircraft tagging
along for the second bridge? Half your load on first bridge, balance on the
second?
Which bridge is more important?
One flight, squadron, group, wing (whatever) on one target improves probability
of success, limiting need to return.
Photo recce can do multiple targets, but then you are worrying about one or two
airplanes not 20+

Rick Clark

[ArtKramr]

>Subject: Re: Bomb in a pickle barrel from 10,000 feet
>From: Bob
>Date: 9/2/2004 8:35 AM Pacific Standard Time
>Message-id: >
>
>On 02 Sep 2004 13:04:00 GMT, (ArtKramr) wrote:
>
>>>Subject: Re: Bomb in a pickle barrel from 10,000 feet
>>>From: Bob
>>>Date: 9/1/2004 10:08 PM Pacific Standard Time
>>>Message-id: >
>>>
>>>On 02 Sep 2004 04:51:10 GMT, (ArtKramr) wrote:
>
>>>>>On 01 Sep 2004 20:12:24 GMT, (ArtKramr) wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>>The destruction of the Bridge at Verberie. Precision bombing at its
>best.
>>>>>>http://www.coastcomp.com/artkramer/bridge.htm
>>>>>
>>>>>And what about the bridge Croix St. Ouen, 2 miles north of Verberie?
>>>>
>>>>What about it?.
>>>
>>>I figured you had pictures of that too. Couple bombers flying up or
>>>down the river picking off bridges one by one with their precision
>>>bombing?
>>
>>We didn't operate that way. we didn't "fly up and down the river" looking
>for
>>targets. We planned the mission and flew the plan. The P-51's operated as
>you
>>described, not the Marauders.
>
>One mission one target with an alternate? Target everything goes?
>Just thinking line up the two bridges in a straight line for the run
>in and hit one and then the other.
>

Nope. One mission one target and it gets all 4,000 lbs X56 aircraft.



Arthur Kramer
344th BG 494th BS
England, France, Belgium, Holland, Germany
Visit my WW II B-26 website at:
http://www.coastcomp.com/artkramer

[Bob]

On 02 Sep 2004 19:05:06 GMT, (ArtKramr) wrote:

>Nope. One mission one target and it gets all 4,000 lbs X56 aircraft.

So after about 5 aircraft drop what are the others aiming on? The
middle of the smoke and dust cloud?

[ArtKramr]

>Subject: Re: Bomb in a pickle barrel from 10,000 feet
>From: Bob
>Date: 9/2/2004 1:34 PM Pacific Standard Time
>Message-id: >
>
>On 02 Sep 2004 19:05:06 GMT, (ArtKramr) wrote:
>
>>Nope. One mission one target and it gets all 4,000 lbs X56 aircraft.
>
>So after about 5 aircraft drop what are the others aiming on? The
>middle of the smoke and dust cloud?
>

Not 5 aircraft. 56 aircraft.


Arthur Kramer
344th BG 494th BS
England, France, Belgium, Holland, Germany
Visit my WW II B-26 website at:
http://www.coastcomp.com/artkramer

[Ragnar]

"ArtKramr" > wrote in message
...
> >Subject: Re: Bomb in a pickle barrel from 10,000 feet
> >From: Bob
> >Date: 9/2/2004 1:34 PM Pacific Standard Time
> >Message-id: >
> >
> >On 02 Sep 2004 19:05:06 GMT, (ArtKramr) wrote:
> >
> >>Nope. One mission one target and it gets all 4,000 lbs X56 aircraft.
> >
> >So after about 5 aircraft drop what are the others aiming on? The
> >middle of the smoke and dust cloud?
> >
>
> Not 5 aircraft. 56 aircraft.

So ALL 56 aircraft drop on the SAME bridge at low level? How do the last 51
planes even SEE the target with all the smoke and dust?

[OXMORON1]

Ragnar asked:
>So ALL 56 aircraft drop on the SAME bridge at low level? How do the last 51
>planes even SEE the target with all the smoke and dust?
>
>

First, 10,000 feet is not low level.
Second, there should be almost no lag between the release of the first planes
through the release of the last in the flight.
Remember the aircraft are in a tight formation, not spread out all over the
countryside.

Besides defensive firepower, the purpose of the formation was to put as many
a/c over the same point as close to the same time as possible. "Point" being a
relative term.

Art, How long and wide was the formation of one group of B-26s if everything is
going correctly and each airplane was in it's proper place?
Also what is the fall time for a 500 pounder from 10,000 feet (I don't have my
boks handy)?

Not that we ever bombed out a formation, but a twelve ship B-57 formation was
less than 160 yards x 120 yards. Also we weren't stacked in a "Box" which
should tighten up the pattern.

Rick Clark

[ArtKramr]

>Subject: Re: Bomb in a pickle barrel from 10,000 feet
>From: (OXMORON1)
>Date: 9/2/2004 3:16 PM Pacific Standard Time
>Message-id: >
>
>Ragnar asked:
>>So ALL 56 aircraft drop on the SAME bridge at low level? How do the last 51
>>planes even SEE the target with all the smoke and dust?
>>
>>
>
>First, 10,000 feet is not low level.
>Second, there should be almost no lag between the release of the first planes
>through the release of the last in the flight.
>Remember the aircraft are in a tight formation, not spread out all over the
>countryside.
>
>Besides defensive firepower, the purpose of the formation was to put as many
>a/c over the same point as close to the same time as possible. "Point" being
>a
>relative term.
>
>Art, How long and wide was the formation of one group of B-26s if everything
>is
>going correctly and each airplane was in it's proper place?
> Also what is the fall time for a 500 pounder from 10,000 feet (I don't have
>my
>boks handy)?
>
>Not that we ever bombed out a formation, but a twelve ship B-57 formation was
>less than 160 yards x 120 yards. Also we weren't stacked in a "Box" which
>should tighten up the pattern.
>
>Rick Clark


To get a good idea of the area of impact of 56 Marauders each with a 4,000
pound load of 500 pounders for a total of about a quarter of a million pounds
of bombs going off at once, go to my website and check "The Raid on Brest"
"Hitting the French Coast", "Wurzburgh" and "The Airfield that wasn't there".
Bomb runs were all NORDEN from 10,000 feet at 180 IAS,



Arthur Kramer
344th BG 494th BS
England, France, Belgium, Holland, Germany
Visit my WW II B-26 website at:
http://www.coastcomp.com/artkramer

[John Mullen]

"ArtKramr" > wrote in message
...
> >Subject: Re: Bomb in a pickle barrel from 10,000 feet
>>From: (OXMORON1)
>>Date: 9/2/2004 3:16 PM Pacific Standard Time
>>Message-id: >
>>
>>Ragnar asked:
>>>So ALL 56 aircraft drop on the SAME bridge at low level? How do the last
>>>51
>>>planes even SEE the target with all the smoke and dust?
>>>
>>>
>>
>>First, 10,000 feet is not low level.
>>Second, there should be almost no lag between the release of the first
>>planes
>>through the release of the last in the flight.
>>Remember the aircraft are in a tight formation, not spread out all over
>>the
>>countryside.
>>
>>Besides defensive firepower, the purpose of the formation was to put as
>>many
>>a/c over the same point as close to the same time as possible. "Point"
>>being
>>a
>>relative term.
>>
>>Art, How long and wide was the formation of one group of B-26s if
>>everything
>>is
>>going correctly and each airplane was in it's proper place?
>> Also what is the fall time for a 500 pounder from 10,000 feet (I don't
>> have
>>my
>>boks handy)?
>>
>>Not that we ever bombed out a formation, but a twelve ship B-57 formation
>>was
>>less than 160 yards x 120 yards. Also we weren't stacked in a "Box" which
>>should tighten up the pattern.
>>
>>Rick Clark
>
>
> To get a good idea of the area of impact of 56 Marauders each with a 4,000
> pound load of 500 pounders for a total of about a quarter of a million
> pounds
> of bombs going off at once, go to my website and check "The Raid on
> Brest"
> "Hitting the French Coast", "Wurzburgh" and "The Airfield that wasn't
> there".
> Bomb runs were all NORDEN from 10,000 feet at 180 IAS,

I have done. You have some geat pics there art.

Why was it always a 'pickle barrel' anyway? I would have thought a
sauerkraut barrel would have been more appropriate.

John

[ArtKramr]

>Subject: Re: Bomb in a pickle barrel from 10,000 feet
>From: "John Mullen"
>Date: 9/3/2004 9:01 AM Pacific Standard Time
>Message-id: >
>
>"ArtKramr" > wrote in message
...
>> >Subject: Re: Bomb in a pickle barrel from 10,000 feet
>>>From: (OXMORON1)
>>>Date: 9/2/2004 3:16 PM Pacific Standard Time
>>>Message-id: >
>>>
>>>Ragnar asked:
>>>>So ALL 56 aircraft drop on the SAME bridge at low level? How do the last
>>>>51
>>>>planes even SEE the target with all the smoke and dust?
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>>First, 10,000 feet is not low level.
>>>Second, there should be almost no lag between the release of the first
>>>planes
>>>through the release of the last in the flight.
>>>Remember the aircraft are in a tight formation, not spread out all over
>>>the
>>>countryside.
>>>
>>>Besides defensive firepower, the purpose of the formation was to put as
>>>many
>>>a/c over the same point as close to the same time as possible. "Point"
>>>being
>>>a
>>>relative term.
>>>
>>>Art, How long and wide was the formation of one group of B-26s if
>>>everything
>>>is
>>>going correctly and each airplane was in it's proper place?
>>> Also what is the fall time for a 500 pounder from 10,000 feet (I don't
>>> have
>>>my
>>>boks handy)?
>>>
>>>Not that we ever bombed out a formation, but a twelve ship B-57 formation
>>>was
>>>less than 160 yards x 120 yards. Also we weren't stacked in a "Box" which
>>>should tighten up the pattern.
>>>
>>>Rick Clark
>>
>>
>> To get a good idea of the area of impact of 56 Marauders each with a 4,000
>> pound load of 500 pounders for a total of about a quarter of a million
>> pounds
>> of bombs going off at once, go to my website and check "The Raid on
>> Brest"
>> "Hitting the French Coast", "Wurzburgh" and "The Airfield that wasn't
>> there".
>> Bomb runs were all NORDEN from 10,000 feet at 180 IAS,
>
>I have done. You have some geat pics there art.
>
>Why was it always a 'pickle barrel' anyway? I would have thought a
>sauerkraut barrel would have been more appropriate.
>
>John
>


Excellant observation. Now I can see why you get the big bucks. (grin)


Arthur Kramer
344th BG 494th BS
England, France, Belgium, Holland, Germany
Visit my WW II B-26 website at:
http://www.coastcomp.com/artkramer