Why did Bush join the national guard?

[ArtKramr]

Why did Bush join the National Guard instrae do the Army, Navy or Air Force?
why?


Arthur Kramer
344th BG 494th BS
England, France, Belgium, Holland, Germany
Visit my WW II B-26 website at:
http://www.coastcomp.com/artkramer

[Bob Coe]

"ArtKramr" > wrote
>
> Why did Bush join the National Guard instrae do the Army, Navy or Air Force?
> why?

He wanted to be a pilot. The Guard had a slot, and the others didn't.

How come you didn't join the Marines and volunteer for the Pacific?

[Thomas J. Paladino Jr.]

"ArtKramr" > wrote in message
...
> Why did Bush join the National Guard instrae do the Army, Navy or Air
Force?
> why?
>

Why do you believe that everyone who served in the National Guard during
Vietnam is some kind of traitor?

Bush was a fighter pilot for 3 years, carrying out a vital national interest
during the cold war. And we all know that the F102 was not a particularly
safe, nor easy to fly aircraft. This is not the profile of someone who shuns
either danger or responsibility, nor of one who lacks intelligence.

And for the record, when a proposal was floated to send F102s to Vietnam,
Bush put his name in as a volunteer, however the powers that be decided not
to use the plane.

[Bob Coe]

ArtKramr > wrote
>
> instrae do the Army

What is this? Ebonics?

[ArtKramr]

>Subject: Re: Why did Bush join the national guard?
>From: "Bob Coe"
>Date: 9/5/2004 10:01 AM Pacific Standard Time
>Message-id: <kEH_c.18315$ni.8682@okepread01>
>
>"ArtKramr" > wrote
>>
>> Why did Bush join the National Guard instrae do the Army, Navy or Air
>Force?
>> why?
>
>He wanted to be a pilot. The Guard had a slot, and the others didn't.
>
>How come you didn't join the Marines and volunteer for the Pacific?


The Army Air Corps was a tougher outift that took higher losses. Where did you
fight? Anywhere?



Where did you fight?
Arthur Kramer
344th BG 494th BS
England, France, Belgium, Holland, Germany
Visit my WW II B-26 website at:
http://www.coastcomp.com/artkramer

[ArtKramr]

>ubject: Re: Why did Bush join the national guard?
>From: "Thomas J. Paladino Jr."
>Date: 9/5/2004 10:03 AM Pacific Standard Time
>Message-id: >
>
>
>"ArtKramr" > wrote in message
...
>> Why did Bush join the National Guard instrae do the Army, Navy or Air
>Force?
>> why?
>>
>
>Why do you believe that everyone who served in the National Guard during
>Vietnam is some kind of traitor?
>
>Bush was a fighter pilot for 3 years, carrying out a vital national interest
>during the cold war. And we all know that the F102 was not a particularly
>safe, nor easy to fly aircraft. This is not the profile of someone who shuns
>either danger or responsibility, nor of one who lacks intelligence.
>
>And for the record, when a proposal was floated to send F102s to Vietnam,
>Bush put his name in as a volunteer, however the powers that be decided not
>to use the plane.

Bush refused to vounteer. And he did it in writing.

..

Arthur Kramer
344th BG 494th BS
England, France, Belgium, Holland, Germany
Visit my WW II B-26 website at:
http://www.coastcomp.com/artkramer

[Bob Coe]

"ArtKramr" > wrote
>>
>> How come you didn't join the Marines and volunteer for the Pacific?
>
> The Army Air Corps was a tougher outift that took higher losses.

Tougher? You were in action what? Maybe an hour every other day?
Did you guys have a weight-room, or run 6 miles a day?

> Where did you fight? Anywhere?

I didn't fight in WW2. I would tell you where I fought, but I know
how you operate with that question, so NO, I did not ride on B-26's
for a few months in 1945.

[Bob Coe]

"ArtKramr" > wrote
>
> Bush refused to vounteer. And he did it in writing.

Even if you were right on this, what would it matter?

General Eisenhower never saw combat, and was a non-volunteer
for overseas duty. He made a great President as well.

[Jack G]

OK Art, tell that to a combat Marine - face to face. If all that happens is
he asks you where you fought - and then laughs in your face when you tell
him you will be a very lucky man.
Jack G.


> The Army Air Corps was a tougher outift that took higher losses. Where did
you
> fight? Anywhere?
>
>
>
> Where did you fight?
> Arthur Kramer
> 344th BG 494th BS
> England, France, Belgium, Holland, Germany
> Visit my WW II B-26 website at:
> http://www.coastcomp.com/artkramer
>

[Pete]

"ArtKramr" > wrote

>
> Bush refused to vounteer. And he did it in writing.

6 million of the 9 million people on active duty during the Vietnam era
never saw SEA. Will you belittle their service as well?

Pete

[BUFDRVR]

ArtKramr wrote:

>>How come you didn't join the Marines and volunteer for the Pacific?
>
>
>The Army Air Corps was a tougher outift that took higher losses.

When you joined this was not only uncertain, but being touted as highly
unlikely, so don't give us this line of crap about joining because you knew
where the toughest action was going to be. The USAAF may have taken more
caualties in gross numbers, but the USMC in the Pacific had a much higher
percentage rate. Do a google on Tarawa.


BUFDRVR

"Stay on the bomb run boys, I'm gonna get those bomb doors open if it harelips
everyone on Bear Creek"

[B2431]

>From: (ArtKramr)
>Date: 9/5/2004 11:59 AM Central Daylight Time
>Message-id: >
>
>Why did Bush join the National Guard instrae do the Army, Navy or Air Force?
>why?
>
>
>Arthur Kramer

He DID go into the Air Force. The ANG is a component of the USAF.

Now why do you insist on posting off topic rants about a better man than you?

Dan, U.S. Air Force, retired

[BUFDRVR]

ArtKramr wrote:

>Bush refused to vounteer. And he did it in writing.

You've already been told, by people much smarter than you, that checking the
box "I do not request an overseas assignment" was not same as requesting not to
go to Vietnam. You can continue your mantra as you see fit though as you no
longer have a reputation to trash.


BUFDRVR

"Stay on the bomb run boys, I'm gonna get those bomb doors open if it harelips
everyone on Bear Creek"

[ArtKramr]

>Subject: Re: Why did Bush join the national guard?
>From: (B2431)
>Date: 9/5/2004 11:53 AM Pacific Standard Time
>Message-id: >
>
>
>>From: (ArtKramr)
>>Date: 9/5/2004 11:59 AM Central Daylight Time
>>Message-id: >
>>
>>Why did Bush join the National Guard instrae do the Army, Navy or Air
>Force?
>>why?
>>
>>
>>Arthur Kramer
>
>He DID go into the Air Force. The ANG is a component of the USAF.
>
>Now why do you insist on posting off topic rants about a better man than you?
>
>Dan, U.S. Air Force, retired
>


He pulled strings to avoid combat. He is not much of a man.


Arthur Kramer
344th BG 494th BS
England, France, Belgium, Holland, Germany
Visit my WW II B-26 website at:
http://www.coastcomp.com/artkramer

[ArtKramr]

>Subject: Re: Why did Bush join the national guard?
>From: "Jack G"
>Date: 9/5/2004 10:28 AM Pacific Standard Time
>Message-id: <s1I_c.4926$5Y6.4411@trnddc07>
>
>OK Art, tell that to a combat Marine - face to face. If all that happens is
>he asks you where you fought - and then laughs in your face when you tell
>him you will be a very lucky man.
>Jack G.
>

And where did you fight?


Arthur Kramer
344th BG 494th BS
England, France, Belgium, Holland, Germany
Visit my WW II B-26 website at:
http://www.coastcomp.com/artkramer

[ArtKramr]

>Subject: Re: Why did Bush join the national guard?
>From: (BUFDRVR)
>Date: 9/5/2004 11:52 AM Pacific Standard Time
>Message-id: >
>
>ArtKramr wrote:
>
>>>How come you didn't join the Marines and volunteer for the Pacific?
>>
>>
>>The Army Air Corps was a tougher outift that took higher losses.
>
>When you joined this was not only uncertain, but being touted as highly
>unlikely, so don't give us this line of crap about joining because you knew
>where the toughest action was going to be. The USAAF may have taken more
>caualties in gross numbers, but the USMC in the Pacific had a much higher
>percentage rate. Do a google on Tarawa.
>
>
>BUFDRVR
>

Get back to me after you have fought in a real war. You are all ****ed up. The
Army AIr Corps had the highest percentage But you fought in neither the AAC or
the Mairnes. so what the hell do you know about anything?

..
Arthur Kramer
344th BG 494th BS
England, France, Belgium, Holland, Germany
Visit my WW II B-26 website at:
http://www.coastcomp.com/artkramer

[George Z. Bush]

Thomas J. Paladino Jr. wrote:

> And for the record, when a proposal was floated to send F102s to Vietnam,
> Bush put his name in as a volunteer, however the powers that be decided not
> to use the plane.

For the same record, when he first applied for flying training, he indicated on
his application that he did NOT desire an overseas assignment. And he had only
300 flying hours in the F-102 when he volunteered for overseas duty after he had
been told that they wouldn't consider anybody with less than 500 hours. It was
a pretty safe thing to do.....asking for something you knew in advance they
weren't going to give you.

That's just for the record, of course.

George Z.

[Mike Dargan]

ArtKramr wrote:

> Why did Bush join the National Guard instrae do the Army, Navy or Air Force?
> why?

At that time, TANG was a safe place to baby sit the children of
privilege who were burdened by poor scores on military aptitude tests.
I don't fault Bush's parents for buying their kid's way into the
champaign squadron. It's important that the best and the brightest
conserve their genes for future generations.

Can you imagine the disaster if the shrub had been given hazardous duty
which caused him to be disabled or killed before having the chance to
breed and produce equally brilliant offspring? Where would we be
without Jenna and Barbara?

Cheers

--mike

>
>
> Arthur Kramer
> 344th BG 494th BS
> England, France, Belgium, Holland, Germany
> Visit my WW II B-26 website at:
> http://www.coastcomp.com/artkramer
>

[George Z. Bush]

Jack G wrote:
> OK Art, tell that to a combat Marine - face to face. If all that happens is
> he asks you where you fought - and then laughs in your face when you tell
> him you will be a very lucky man.
> Jack G.

Just for the record, Jack, during WWII, the 8th Air Force sustained more
casualties over Europe than the entire United States Marine Corps did world-wide
throughout the entire war. If you don't believe me, just ask Google the right
questions and they'll provide the same answer that I just did....I know because
I've already done it.

George Z.

[ArtKramr]

>Subject: Re: Why did Bush join the national guard?
>From: Mike Dargan
>Date: 9/5/2004 12:31 PM Pacific Standard Time
>Message-id: <rQJ_c.36777$3l3.28824@attbi_s03>
>
>ArtKramr wrote:
>
>> Why did Bush join the National Guard instrae do the Army, Navy or Air
>Force?
>> why?
>
>At that time, TANG was a safe place to baby sit the children of
>privilege who were burdened by poor scores on military aptitude tests.
>I don't fault Bush's parents for buying their kid's way into the
>champaign squadron. It's important that the best and the brightest
>conserve their genes for future generations.
>
>Can you imagine the disaster if the shrub had been given hazardous duty
>which caused him to be disabled or killed before having the chance to
>breed and produce equally brilliant offspring? Where would we be
>without Jenna and Barbara?
>
>Cheers
>
>--mike
>
>>


I think about Bush and am glad he was never around to fight with the 344th
although he would have gotten out of combat missions by hook or by crook.
especially crook. The resrves was the standard hiding place for the neocon
rich, and poweful.


Arthur Kramer
344th BG 494th BS
England, France, Belgium, Holland, Germany
Visit my WW II B-26 website at:
http://www.coastcomp.com/artkramer

[Ed Rasimus]

On Sun, 5 Sep 2004 15:29:00 -0400, "George Z. Bush"
> wrote:

>Thomas J. Paladino Jr. wrote:
>
>> And for the record, when a proposal was floated to send F102s to Vietnam,
>> Bush put his name in as a volunteer, however the powers that be decided not
>> to use the plane.
>
>For the same record, when he first applied for flying training, he indicated on
>his application that he did NOT desire an overseas assignment.

That's no smoking gun. I did NOT desire an overseas assignment when I
entered the USAF. I did NOT desire an overseas assignment when I chose
the F-105 (there were four wings in the US flying the airplane at the
time.) I did NOT desire an overseas assignment when I got one to Korat
Thailand. I did NOT desire an overseas assignment when I returned from
Korat. In fact, I was in the AF for almost eight years before the
first time I checked that box on the AF form 90. A lot of folks with
and without families for a wide variety of reasons don't indicate a
preference or desire for overseas assignment.

> And he had only
>300 flying hours in the F-102 when he volunteered for overseas duty after he had
>been told that they wouldn't consider anybody with less than 500 hours. It was
>a pretty safe thing to do.....asking for something you knew in advance they
>weren't going to give you.

And, when I went to war in the F-105 I had 120 hours in the airplane.
When I went to war in the F-4 I had 28 hours in the type and ZERO
hours in the model to which I was assigned. My first flight in an F-4E
was a combat mission. So, there's not much "safety" in volunteering
with a few less hours than required.
>
>That's just for the record, of course.

This is just for the record as well.


Ed Rasimus
Fighter Pilot (USAF-Ret)
"When Thunder Rolled"
"Phantom Flights, Bangkok Nights"
Both from Smithsonian Books
***www.thunderchief.org

[Bob Coe]

"ArtKramr" > wrote
>
> He pulled strings to avoid combat. He is not much of a man.

Why join the military if you want to avoid combat? Your juvenile
logic makes no sense to adults.

[Bob Coe]

"ArtKramr" > wrote
>
> And where did you fight?

Who cares?

[Steven P. McNicoll]

"ArtKramr" > wrote in message
...
>
> Why did Bush join the National Guard instrae do the Army, Navy
> or Air Force? why?
>

He didn't.

[ArtKramr]

>Subject: Re: Why did Bush join the national guard?
>From: "George Z. Bush"
>Date: 9/5/2004 12:33 PM Pacific Standard Time
>Message-id: >
>
>Jack G wrote:
>> OK Art, tell that to a combat Marine - face to face. If all that happens
>is
>> he asks you where you fought - and then laughs in your face when you tell
>> him you will be a very lucky man.
>> Jack G.
>
>Just for the record, Jack, during WWII, the 8th Air Force sustained more
>casualties over Europe than the entire United States Marine Corps did
>world-wide
>throughout the entire war. If you don't believe me, just ask Google the
>right
>questions and they'll provide the same answer that I just did....I know
>because
>I've already done it.
>
>George Z.


That's just the 8th. Then add the 9th and the 15th and all the air forces in
the Pacific and you have a total that makes air duty the most hazardous in the
history of of warfare. Wanna live? Join anything but the Air Forces.. Or fly
B-52's over Iraq. Or do what Bush did. which was nothing.



Arthur Kramer
344th BG 494th BS
England, France, Belgium, Holland, Germany
Visit my WW II B-26 website at:
http://www.coastcomp.com/artkramer

[Steven P. McNicoll]

"Pete" > wrote in message
...
>
> "ArtKramr" > wrote
>
>>
>> Bush refused to vounteer. And he did it in writing.
>
> 6 million of the 9 million people on active duty during the Vietnam era
> never saw SEA. Will you belittle their service as well?
>

Art belittles the service of most.

[ArtKramr]

>Subject: Re: Why did Bush join the national guard?
>From: "Bob Coe"
>Date: 9/5/2004 12:43 PM Pacific Standard Time
>Message-id: <D%J_c.18375$ni.14244@okepread01>
>
>"ArtKramr" > wrote
>>
>> And where did you fight?
>
>Who cares?


That answers my question.



Arthur Kramer
344th BG 494th BS
England, France, Belgium, Holland, Germany
Visit my WW II B-26 website at:
http://www.coastcomp.com/artkramer

[ArtKramr]

>Subject: Re: Why did Bush join the national guard?
>From: "Bob Coe"
>Date: 9/5/2004 12:42 PM Pacific Standard Time
>Message-id: <%_J_c.18374$ni.12041@okepread01>
>
>"ArtKramr" > wrote
>>
>> He pulled strings to avoid combat. He is not much of a man.
>
>Why join the military if you want to avoid combat? Your juvenile
>logic makes no sense to adults.


To give the illusion of heroism where none exists.


Arthur Kramer
344th BG 494th BS
England, France, Belgium, Holland, Germany
Visit my WW II B-26 website at:
http://www.coastcomp.com/artkramer

[Bob Coe]

"ArtKramr" > wrote
>
> Get back to me after you have fought in a real war. You are all ****ed up. The
> Army AIr Corps had the highest percentage But you fought in neither the AAC or
> the Mairnes. so what the hell do you know about anything?

You're full of ****. You didn't join the Marines because you were scared,
and too skinny to fight your way out of a paper bag. You signed-up to ride
around in an airplane at the governments expense, take the cash, and the
heated barracks, and lay around like a ****ing queen, while real men fought.

You're basically a whore.

[Steven P. McNicoll]

"B2431" > wrote in message
...
>
>>From: (ArtKramr)
>>Date: 9/5/2004 11:59 AM Central Daylight Time
>>Message-id: >
>>
>>Why did Bush join the National Guard instrae do the Army, Navy or
>>Air Force?
>>why?
>>
>
> He DID go into the Air Force. The ANG is a component of the USAF.
>

Yes, but Art asked about the National Guard.

[Steven P. McNicoll]

"ArtKramr" > wrote in message
...
>
> He pulled strings to avoid combat.
>

What hard wvidence do you have of that?


>
> He is not much of a man.
>

In your uninformed opinion.

[Bob Coe]

"George Z. Bush" > wrote
>
> Just for the record, Jack, during WWII, the 8th Air Force sustained more casualties over
> Europe than the entire United States Marine Corps did world-wide throughout the entire
> war.

Dying doesn't make you tough.

[Steven P. McNicoll]

"Mike Dargan" > wrote in message
news:rQJ_c.36777$3l3.28824@attbi_s03...
>
> At that time, TANG was a safe place to baby sit the children of privilege
> who were burdened by poor scores on military aptitude tests. I don't fault
> Bush's parents for buying their kid's way into the champaign squadron.
> It's important that the best and the brightest conserve their genes for
> future generations.
>

Champaign is in Illinois, not Texas.

[Bob Coe]

"ArtKramr" > wrote
>
> To give the illusion of heroism where none exists.

Sort of like your unbelievable war stories.

[Bob Coe]

"ArtKramr" > wrote
>
> That answers my question.

A fart would answer your question.

[Kevin Brooks]

"George Z. Bush" > wrote in message
...
> Jack G wrote:
> > OK Art, tell that to a combat Marine - face to face. If all that
happens is
> > he asks you where you fought - and then laughs in your face when you
tell
> > him you will be a very lucky man.
> > Jack G.
>
> Just for the record, Jack, during WWII, the 8th Air Force sustained more
> casualties over Europe than the entire United States Marine Corps did
world-wide
> throughout the entire war. If you don't believe me, just ask Google the
right
> questions and they'll provide the same answer that I just did....I know
because
> I've already done it.

You must have done it wrong. "Half of the U.S. Army Air Forces' casualties
in World War II were suffered by Eighth Air Force (more than 47,000
casualties with more than 26,000 dead)."
(www.globalsecurity.org/military/agency/usaf/8af.htm )

USMC casualties for the war totalled some ninety thousand, out of some 669K
who served in the USMC. Last I heard 90K was more than 47K. True, more 8th
AF personnel *died* in combat than Marines, but that is not what you said.

Your use of "casualty" is normally inclusive of wounded, deaths due to other
than combat causes, and MIA.

Brooks

>
> George Z.
>
>

[Kevin Brooks]

"ArtKramr" > wrote in message
...
> >ubject: Re: Why did Bush join the national guard?
> >From: "Thomas J. Paladino Jr."
> >Date: 9/5/2004 10:03 AM Pacific Standard Time
> >Message-id: >
> >
> >
> >"ArtKramr" > wrote in message
> ...
> >> Why did Bush join the National Guard instrae do the Army, Navy or Air
> >Force?
> >> why?
> >>
> >
> >Why do you believe that everyone who served in the National Guard during
> >Vietnam is some kind of traitor?
> >
> >Bush was a fighter pilot for 3 years, carrying out a vital national
interest
> >during the cold war. And we all know that the F102 was not a particularly
> >safe, nor easy to fly aircraft. This is not the profile of someone who
shuns
> >either danger or responsibility, nor of one who lacks intelligence.
> >
> >And for the record, when a proposal was floated to send F102s to Vietnam,
> >Bush put his name in as a volunteer, however the powers that be decided
not
> >to use the plane.
>
> Bush refused to vounteer. And he did it in writing.

You have just lied again, and you did it in writing. Bush did volunteer;
first for the Guard, then for flight duty, and finally, he tried to do so
for Palace Alert.

Brooks

>
> .
>
> Arthur Kramer

[Thomas J. Paladino Jr.]

"ArtKramr" > wrote in message
...
> >Subject: Re: Why did Bush join the national guard?
> >From: "George Z. Bush"
> >Date: 9/5/2004 12:33 PM Pacific Standard Time
> >Message-id: >
> >
> >Jack G wrote:
> >> OK Art, tell that to a combat Marine - face to face. If all that
happens
> >is
> >> he asks you where you fought - and then laughs in your face when you
tell
> >> him you will be a very lucky man.
> >> Jack G.
> >
> >Just for the record, Jack, during WWII, the 8th Air Force sustained more
> >casualties over Europe than the entire United States Marine Corps did
> >world-wide
> >throughout the entire war. If you don't believe me, just ask Google the
> >right
> >questions and they'll provide the same answer that I just did....I know
> >because
> >I've already done it.
> >
> >George Z.
>
>
> That's just the 8th. Then add the 9th and the 15th and all the air forces
in
> the Pacific and you have a total that makes air duty the most hazardous in
the
> history of of warfare. Wanna live? Join anything but the Air Forces.. Or
fly
> B-52's over Iraq. Or do what Bush did. which was nothing.
>

You mean, 'which was fly a dangerous, difficult, occasionally explosive,
1950's vintage supersonic interceptor for 3 years.'

'Nothing' is what you seem to do lately.

[Kevin Brooks]

"George Z. Bush" > wrote in message
...
> Thomas J. Paladino Jr. wrote:
>
> > And for the record, when a proposal was floated to send F102s to
Vietnam,
> > Bush put his name in as a volunteer, however the powers that be decided
not
> > to use the plane.
>
> For the same record, when he first applied for flying training, he
indicated on
> his application that he did NOT desire an overseas assignment.

Duh. He was in a National Guard unit. He could have put a big smiley face in
the other block and it would have made no difference. His duty assignment
was already set in concrete--he was going to return to his unit, the same
one that sent him to flight school in the first place. You are incapable of
understanding the differences between ANG and active component operations,
aren't you?


And he had only
> 300 flying hours in the F-102 when he volunteered for overseas duty after
he had
> been told that they wouldn't consider anybody with less than 500 hours.

Nope, he first asked about Palace Alert, and was *then* told they were then
using the 500 hour limit; you have it all basackwards, as usual.

It was
> a pretty safe thing to do.....asking for something you knew in advance
they
> weren't going to give you.

Wrong again. You have been told this before, so I guess your continued use
of this tack is just your usual dishonest nature coming through
again...Palace Alert did not maintain a set-in-concrete 500 hour experience
requirement. The required experience level fluctuated based upon the pool of
volunteers they then had--which is why later, as the program wound down, a
mere junior LT found himself flying Palace Alert duty out of Iceland and
participating in one of the USAF's last F-102 intercepts of a Soviet
aircraft.

>
> That's just for the record, of course.

Then your records are all screwed up.

Brooks

>
> George Z.
>
>

[Kevin Brooks]

"ArtKramr" > wrote in message
...
<snip>

>
>
> I think about Bush and am glad he was never around to fight with the 344th
> although he would have gotten out of combat missions by hook or by crook.
> especially crook. The resrves was the standard hiding place for the neocon
> rich, and poweful.

There you go again--are you again saying that the reserves were a refuge
when your beloved 344th was flying in combat? When are you going to learn
that the entire reserve structure had been mobilized for active duty while
you were still trying to figure out whether you wanted a chocolate malted or
a cherry spritzer at the local soda fountain?

Brooks

>
>
> Arthur Kramer

[Thomas J. Paladino Jr.]

"ArtKramr" > wrote in message
...
> >Subject: Re: Why did Bush join the national guard?
> >From: Mike Dargan
> >Date: 9/5/2004 12:31 PM Pacific Standard Time
> >Message-id: <rQJ_c.36777$3l3.28824@attbi_s03>
> >
> >ArtKramr wrote:
> >
> >> Why did Bush join the National Guard instrae do the Army, Navy or Air
> >Force?
> >> why?
> >
> >At that time, TANG was a safe place to baby sit the children of
> >privilege who were burdened by poor scores on military aptitude tests.
> >I don't fault Bush's parents for buying their kid's way into the
> >champaign squadron. It's important that the best and the brightest
> >conserve their genes for future generations.
> >
> >Can you imagine the disaster if the shrub had been given hazardous duty
> >which caused him to be disabled or killed before having the chance to
> >breed and produce equally brilliant offspring? Where would we be
> >without Jenna and Barbara?
> >
> >Cheers
> >
> >--mike
> >
> >>
>
>
> I think about Bush and am glad he was never around to fight with the 344th
> although he would have gotten out of combat missions by hook or by crook.
> especially crook. The resrves was the standard hiding place for the neocon
> rich, and poweful.
>

At first I thought that you just disliked Bush. Then I thought you were a
little obsessive and had too much time on your hands. Now I see that you
are, unfortunately, totally insane.

Are you forgetting that the elder Bush actually fought in WWII as a pilot
and was actually shot down in combat? He was rich and powerful, but chose to
serve in the best way he could, just like George W. And I also wasn't aware
that the 'neocon' bogeymen were around back in WWII also. Which kind of
leads me to believe that you have no idea what a 'neocon' even is. Which
also leads me to believe that you are probably talking out your ass 99% of
the time anyway.

[ArtKramr]

>Subject: Re: Why did Bush join the national guard?
>From: "Thomas J. Paladino Jr."
>Date: 9/5/2004 1:17 PM Pacific Standard Time
>Message-id: >
>
>
>"ArtKramr" > wrote in message
...
>> >Subject: Re: Why did Bush join the national guard?
>> >From: "George Z. Bush"
>> >Date: 9/5/2004 12:33 PM Pacific Standard Time
>> >Message-id: >
>> >
>> >Jack G wrote:
>> >> OK Art, tell that to a combat Marine - face to face. If all that
>happens
>> >is
>> >> he asks you where you fought - and then laughs in your face when you
>tell
>> >> him you will be a very lucky man.
>> >> Jack G.
>> >
>> >Just for the record, Jack, during WWII, the 8th Air Force sustained more
>> >casualties over Europe than the entire United States Marine Corps did
>> >world-wide
>> >throughout the entire war. If you don't believe me, just ask Google the
>> >right
>> >questions and they'll provide the same answer that I just did....I know
>> >because
>> >I've already done it.
>> >
>> >George Z.
>>
>>
>> That's just the 8th. Then add the 9th and the 15th and all the air forces
>in
>> the Pacific and you have a total that makes air duty the most hazardous in
>the
>> history of of warfare. Wanna live? Join anything but the Air Forces.. Or
>fly
>> B-52's over Iraq. Or do what Bush did. which was nothing.
>>
>
>You mean, 'which was fly a dangerous, difficult, occasionally explosive,
>1950's vintage supersonic interceptor for 3 years.'
>

Piece of cake compared ot a B-26 Marauder. Check rhe records. And what did you
fly?




Arthur Kramer
344th BG 494th BS
England, France, Belgium, Holland, Germany
Visit my WW II B-26 website at:
http://www.coastcomp.com/artkramer

[ArtKramr]

>Subject: Re: Why did Bush join the national guard?
>From: "Thomas J. Paladino Jr."
>Date: 9/5/2004 1:36 PM Pacific Standard Time
>Message-id: >
>
>
>"ArtKramr" > wrote in message
...
>> >Subject: Re: Why did Bush join the national guard?
>> >From: Mike Dargan
>> >Date: 9/5/2004 12:31 PM Pacific Standard Time
>> >Message-id: <rQJ_c.36777$3l3.28824@attbi_s03>
>> >
>> >ArtKramr wrote:
>> >
>> >> Why did Bush join the National Guard instrae do the Army, Navy or Air
>> >Force?
>> >> why?
>> >
>> >At that time, TANG was a safe place to baby sit the children of
>> >privilege who were burdened by poor scores on military aptitude tests.
>> >I don't fault Bush's parents for buying their kid's way into the
>> >champaign squadron. It's important that the best and the brightest
>> >conserve their genes for future generations.
>> >
>> >Can you imagine the disaster if the shrub had been given hazardous duty
>> >which caused him to be disabled or killed before having the chance to
>> >breed and produce equally brilliant offspring? Where would we be
>> >without Jenna and Barbara?
>> >
>> >Cheers
>> >
>> >--mike
>> >
>> >>
>>
>>
>> I think about Bush and am glad he was never around to fight with the 344th
>> although he would have gotten out of combat missions by hook or by crook.
>> especially crook. The resrves was the standard hiding place for the neocon
>> rich, and poweful.
>>
>
>At first I thought that you just disliked Bush. Then I thought you were a
>little obsessive and had too much time on your hands. Now I see that you
>are, unfortunately, totally insane.
>
>Are you forgetting that the elder Bush actually fought in WWII as a pilot
>and was actually shot down in combat? He was rich and powerful, but chose to
>serve in the best way he could, just like George W. And I also wasn't aware
>that the 'neocon' bogeymen were around back in WWII also. Which kind of
>leads me to believe that you have no idea what a 'neocon' even is. Which
>also leads me to believe that you are probably talking out your ass 99% of
>the time anyway.
>
>
>
I was talking about the young Bush, our present president asshole.


Arthur Kramer
344th BG 494th BS
England, France, Belgium, Holland, Germany
Visit my WW II B-26 website at:
http://www.coastcomp.com/artkramer

[ArtKramr]

>Subject: Re: Why did Bush join the national guard?
>From: "Bob Coe"
>Date: 9/5/2004 12:53 PM Pacific Standard Time
>Message-id: <69K_c.18382$ni.13946@okepread01>
>
>"ArtKramr" > wrote
>>
>> That answers my question.
>
>A fart would answer your question.


That's what I said. You answered my question.


Arthur Kramer
344th BG 494th BS
England, France, Belgium, Holland, Germany
Visit my WW II B-26 website at:
http://www.coastcomp.com/artkramer

[ArtKramr]

>Subject: Re: Why did Bush join the national guard?
>From: "Bob Coe"
>Date: 9/5/2004 12:52 PM Pacific Standard Time
>Message-id: <c8K_c.18381$ni.16882@okepread01>
>
>"ArtKramr" > wrote
>>
>> To give the illusion of heroism where none exists.
>
>Sort of like your unbelievable war stories.


Witnessed by every one of my aircrew as well as my commanding officer. And you?
Anything at all?


Arthur Kramer
344th BG 494th BS
England, France, Belgium, Holland, Germany
Visit my WW II B-26 website at:
http://www.coastcomp.com/artkramer

[Kevin Brooks]

"ArtKramr" > wrote in message
...

<snip>

> >
> >
> I was talking about the young Bush, our present president asshole.

Does the use of such terminology make you at least feel more like a real
man? That would be the fellow who is some ten or eleven points ahead of your
fellow in the current polls, right? The same guy who has the same veterans
benefits you have?

Brooks

>
>
> Arthur Kramer

[Thomas J. Paladino Jr.]

"ArtKramr" > wrote in message
...
> >Subject: Re: Why did Bush join the national guard?
> >From: "Thomas J. Paladino Jr."
> >Date: 9/5/2004 1:17 PM Pacific Standard Time
> >Message-id: >
> >
> >
> >"ArtKramr" > wrote in message
> ...
> >> >Subject: Re: Why did Bush join the national guard?
> >> >From: "George Z. Bush"
> >> >Date: 9/5/2004 12:33 PM Pacific Standard Time
> >> >Message-id: >
> >> >
> >> >Jack G wrote:
> >> >> OK Art, tell that to a combat Marine - face to face. If all that
> >happens
> >> >is
> >> >> he asks you where you fought - and then laughs in your face when you
> >tell
> >> >> him you will be a very lucky man.
> >> >> Jack G.
> >> >
> >> >Just for the record, Jack, during WWII, the 8th Air Force sustained
more
> >> >casualties over Europe than the entire United States Marine Corps did
> >> >world-wide
> >> >throughout the entire war. If you don't believe me, just ask Google
the
> >> >right
> >> >questions and they'll provide the same answer that I just did....I
know
> >> >because
> >> >I've already done it.
> >> >
> >> >George Z.
> >>
> >>
> >> That's just the 8th. Then add the 9th and the 15th and all the air
forces
> >in
> >> the Pacific and you have a total that makes air duty the most hazardous
in
> >the
> >> history of of warfare. Wanna live? Join anything but the Air Forces..
Or
> >fly
> >> B-52's over Iraq. Or do what Bush did. which was nothing.
> >>
> >
> >You mean, 'which was fly a dangerous, difficult, occasionally explosive,
> >1950's vintage supersonic interceptor for 3 years.'
> >
>
> Piece of cake compared ot a B-26 Marauder. Check rhe records. And what
did you
> fly?
>

I wasn't even alive until 1977.

And as far as I know, nobody was flying B26's during the Vietnam era. So try
to compare apples to apples. At the time, the F102 was a far more perilous
aircraft than many of the others flying at the time.

[ArtKramr]

>Subject: Re: Why did Bush join the national guard?
>From: "Kevin Brooks"
>Date: 9/5/2004 1:09 PM Pacific Standard Time
>Message-id: >
>
>
>"George Z. Bush" > wrote in message
...
>> Jack G wrote:
>> > OK Art, tell that to a combat Marine - face to face. If all that
>happens is
>> > he asks you where you fought - and then laughs in your face when you
>tell
>> > him you will be a very lucky man.
>> > Jack G.
>>
>> Just for the record, Jack, during WWII, the 8th Air Force sustained more
>> casualties over Europe than the entire United States Marine Corps did
>world-wide
>> throughout the entire war. If you don't believe me, just ask Google the
>right
>> questions and they'll provide the same answer that I just did....I know
>because
>> I've already done it.
>
>You must have done it wrong. "Half of the U.S. Army Air Forces' casualties
>in World War II were suffered by Eighth Air Force (more than 47,000
>casualties with more than 26,000 dead)."
>(www.globalsecurity.org/military/agency/usaf/8af.htm )
>
>USMC casualties for the war totalled some ninety thousand, out of some 669K
>who served in the USMC. Last I heard 90K was more than 47K. True, more 8th
>AF personnel *died* in combat than Marines, but that is not what you said.
>
>Your use of "casualty" is normally inclusive of wounded, deaths due to other
>than combat causes, and MIA.
>
>Brooks
>
>>
>> George Z.
>>
>>


And exactly what is your combat experience wannabee? Marines? Air Corps? A desk
in the states? Anything at all?




Arthur Kramer
344th BG 494th BS
England, France, Belgium, Holland, Germany
Visit my WW II B-26 website at:
http://www.coastcomp.com/artkramer

[ArtKramr]

>Subject: Re: Why did Bush join the national guard?
>From: "Steven P. McNicoll"
>Date: 9/5/2004 12:50 PM Pacific Standard Time
>Message-id: et>
>
>
>"ArtKramr" > wrote in message
...
>>
>> He pulled strings to avoid combat.
>>
>
>What hard wvidence do you have of that?
>
>
>>
>> He is not much of a man.
>>
>
>In your uninformed opinion.
>


He has the same combat record as you do. ZERO !




Arthur Kramer
344th BG 494th BS
England, France, Belgium, Holland, Germany
Visit my WW II B-26 website at:
http://www.coastcomp.com/artkramer

[ArtKramr]

>Subject: Re: Why did Bush join the national guard?
>From: "Steven P. McNicoll"
>Date: 9/5/2004 12:52 PM Pacific Standard Time
>Message-id: et>
>
>
>"Mike Dargan" > wrote in message
>news:rQJ_c.36777$3l3.28824@attbi_s03...
>>
>> At that time, TANG was a safe place to baby sit the children of privilege
>> who were burdened by poor scores on military aptitude tests. I don't fault
>> Bush's parents for buying their kid's way into the champaign squadron.
>> It's important that the best and the brightest conserve their genes for
>> future generations.
>>
>
>Champaign is in Illinois, not Texas.


It is used as an adjective. Not a noun.


Arthur Kramer
344th BG 494th BS
England, France, Belgium, Holland, Germany
Visit my WW II B-26 website at:
http://www.coastcomp.com/artkramer

[ArtKramr]

>Subject: Re: Why did Bush join the national guard?
>From: "Kevin Brooks"
>Date: 9/5/2004 1:18 PM Pacific Standard Time
>Message-id: >
>
>
>"George Z. Bush" > wrote in message
...
>> Thomas J. Paladino Jr. wrote:
>>
>> > And for the record, when a proposal was floated to send F102s to
>Vietnam,
>> > Bush put his name in as a volunteer, however the powers that be decided
>not
>> > to use the plane.
>>
>> For the same record, when he first applied for flying training, he
>indicated on
>> his application that he did NOT desire an overseas assignment.
>
>Duh. He was in a National Guard unit. He could have put a big smiley face in
>the other block and it would have made no difference. His duty assignment
>was already set in concrete--he was going to return to his unit, the same
>one that sent him to flight school in the first place. You are incapable of
>understanding the differences between ANG and active component operations,
>aren't you?
>
>
>And he had only
>> 300 flying hours in the F-102 when he volunteered for overseas duty after
>he had
>> been told that they wouldn't consider anybody with less than 500 hours.
>
>Nope, he first asked about Palace Alert, and was *then* told they were then
>using the 500 hour limit; you have it all basackwards, as usual.
>
> It was
>> a pretty safe thing to do.....asking for something you knew in advance
>they
>> weren't going to give you.
>
>Wrong again. You have been told this before, so I guess your continued use
>of this tack is just your usual dishonest nature coming through
>again...Palace Alert did not maintain a set-in-concrete 500 hour experience
>requirement. The required experience level fluctuated based upon the pool of
>volunteers they then had--which is why later, as the program wound down, a
>mere junior LT found himself flying Palace Alert duty out of Iceland and
>participating in one of the USAF's last F-102 intercepts of a Soviet
>aircraft.
>
>>
>> That's just for the record, of course.
>
>Then your records are all screwed up.
>
>Brooks
>
>>
>> George Z.
>>
>>


We are talking about military flying. A subject in which you have no experience
whatever and therefore no right to comment.




Arthur Kramer
344th BG 494th BS
England, France, Belgium, Holland, Germany
Visit my WW II B-26 website at:
http://www.coastcomp.com/artkramer

[ArtKramr]

>Subject: Re: Why did Bush join the national guard?
>From: "Thomas J. Paladino Jr."
>Date: 9/5/2004 1:52 PM Pacific Standard Time
>Message-id: >
>
>
>"ArtKramr" > wrote in message
...
>> >Subject: Re: Why did Bush join the national guard?
>> >From: "Thomas J. Paladino Jr."
>> >Date: 9/5/2004 1:17 PM Pacific Standard Time
>> >Message-id: >
>> >
>> >
>> >"ArtKramr" > wrote in message
>> ...
>> >> >Subject: Re: Why did Bush join the national guard?
>> >> >From: "George Z. Bush"
>> >> >Date: 9/5/2004 12:33 PM Pacific Standard Time
>> >> >Message-id: >
>> >> >
>> >> >Jack G wrote:
>> >> >> OK Art, tell that to a combat Marine - face to face. If all that
>> >happens
>> >> >is
>> >> >> he asks you where you fought - and then laughs in your face when you
>> >tell
>> >> >> him you will be a very lucky man.
>> >> >> Jack G.
>> >> >
>> >> >Just for the record, Jack, during WWII, the 8th Air Force sustained
>more
>> >> >casualties over Europe than the entire United States Marine Corps did
>> >> >world-wide
>> >> >throughout the entire war. If you don't believe me, just ask Google
>the
>> >> >right
>> >> >questions and they'll provide the same answer that I just did....I
>know
>> >> >because
>> >> >I've already done it.
>> >> >
>> >> >George Z.
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> That's just the 8th. Then add the 9th and the 15th and all the air
>forces
>> >in
>> >> the Pacific and you have a total that makes air duty the most hazardous
>in
>> >the
>> >> history of of warfare. Wanna live? Join anything but the Air Forces..
>Or
>> >fly
>> >> B-52's over Iraq. Or do what Bush did. which was nothing.
>> >>
>> >
>> >You mean, 'which was fly a dangerous, difficult, occasionally explosive,
>> >1950's vintage supersonic interceptor for 3 years.'
>> >
>>
>> Piece of cake compared ot a B-26 Marauder. Check rhe records. And what
>did you
>> fly?
>>
>
>I wasn't even alive until 1977.
>
>And as far as I know, nobody was flying B26's during the Vietnam era. So try
>to compare apples to apples. At the time, the F102 was a far more perilous
>aircraft than many of the others flying at the time.
>

How the hell would you know?


Arthur Kramer
344th BG 494th BS
England, France, Belgium, Holland, Germany
Visit my WW II B-26 website at:
http://www.coastcomp.com/artkramer

[Ragnar]

"ArtKramr" > wrote in message
...
> Why did Bush join the National Guard instrae do the Army, Navy or Air
Force?

" instrae do "

On the meds again, Art?

[Thomas J. Paladino Jr.]

"ArtKramr" > wrote in message
...
> >Subject: Re: Why did Bush join the national guard?
> >From: "Thomas J. Paladino Jr."
> >Date: 9/5/2004 1:52 PM Pacific Standard Time
> >Message-id: >
> >
> >
> >"ArtKramr" > wrote in message
> ...
> >> >Subject: Re: Why did Bush join the national guard?
> >> >From: "Thomas J. Paladino Jr."
> >> >Date: 9/5/2004 1:17 PM Pacific Standard Time
> >> >Message-id: >
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >"ArtKramr" > wrote in message
> >> ...
> >> >> >Subject: Re: Why did Bush join the national guard?
> >> >> >From: "George Z. Bush"
> >> >> >Date: 9/5/2004 12:33 PM Pacific Standard Time
> >> >> >Message-id: >
> >> >> >
> >> >> >Jack G wrote:
> >> >> >> OK Art, tell that to a combat Marine - face to face. If all that
> >> >happens
> >> >> >is
> >> >> >> he asks you where you fought - and then laughs in your face when
you
> >> >tell
> >> >> >> him you will be a very lucky man.
> >> >> >> Jack G.
> >> >> >
> >> >> >Just for the record, Jack, during WWII, the 8th Air Force sustained
> >more
> >> >> >casualties over Europe than the entire United States Marine Corps
did
> >> >> >world-wide
> >> >> >throughout the entire war. If you don't believe me, just ask
Google
> >the
> >> >> >right
> >> >> >questions and they'll provide the same answer that I just did....I
> >know
> >> >> >because
> >> >> >I've already done it.
> >> >> >
> >> >> >George Z.
> >> >>
> >> >>
> >> >> That's just the 8th. Then add the 9th and the 15th and all the air
> >forces
> >> >in
> >> >> the Pacific and you have a total that makes air duty the most
hazardous
> >in
> >> >the
> >> >> history of of warfare. Wanna live? Join anything but the Air
Forces..
> >Or
> >> >fly
> >> >> B-52's over Iraq. Or do what Bush did. which was nothing.
> >> >>
> >> >
> >> >You mean, 'which was fly a dangerous, difficult, occasionally
explosive,
> >> >1950's vintage supersonic interceptor for 3 years.'
> >> >
> >>
> >> Piece of cake compared ot a B-26 Marauder. Check rhe records. And what
> >did you
> >> fly?
> >>
> >
> >I wasn't even alive until 1977.
> >
> >And as far as I know, nobody was flying B26's during the Vietnam era. So
try
> >to compare apples to apples. At the time, the F102 was a far more
perilous
> >aircraft than many of the others flying at the time.
> >
>
> How the hell would you know?
>

So nobody is able to know anything until the point of their actual birth?
Kind of defeats the purpose of history books, no?

I know because I've looked into it, the same way I know that there are
pyramids in Egypt.

[Bob Coe]

"ArtKramr" > wrote
>
> Piece of cake compared ot a B-26 Marauder.

Wow, you must have flown both to say that!??

[ArtKramr]

>Subject: Re: Why did Bush join the national guard?
>From: "Thomas J. Paladino Jr."
>Date: 9/5/2004 2:43 PM Pacific Standard Time
>Message-id: >
>
>
>"ArtKramr" > wrote in message
...
>> >Subject: Re: Why did Bush join the national guard?
>> >From: "Thomas J. Paladino Jr."
>> >Date: 9/5/2004 1:52 PM Pacific Standard Time
>> >Message-id: >
>> >
>> >
>> >"ArtKramr" > wrote in message
>> ...
>> >> >Subject: Re: Why did Bush join the national guard?
>> >> >From: "Thomas J. Paladino Jr."
>> >> >Date: 9/5/2004 1:17 PM Pacific Standard Time
>> >> >Message-id: >
>> >> >
>> >> >
>> >> >"ArtKramr" > wrote in message
>> >> ...
>> >> >> >Subject: Re: Why did Bush join the national guard?
>> >> >> >From: "George Z. Bush"
>> >> >> >Date: 9/5/2004 12:33 PM Pacific Standard Time
>> >> >> >Message-id: >
>> >> >> >
>> >> >> >Jack G wrote:
>> >> >> >> OK Art, tell that to a combat Marine - face to face. If all that
>> >> >happens
>> >> >> >is
>> >> >> >> he asks you where you fought - and then laughs in your face when
>you
>> >> >tell
>> >> >> >> him you will be a very lucky man.
>> >> >> >> Jack G.
>> >> >> >
>> >> >> >Just for the record, Jack, during WWII, the 8th Air Force sustained
>> >more
>> >> >> >casualties over Europe than the entire United States Marine Corps
>did
>> >> >> >world-wide
>> >> >> >throughout the entire war. If you don't believe me, just ask
>Google
>> >the
>> >> >> >right
>> >> >> >questions and they'll provide the same answer that I just did....I
>> >know
>> >> >> >because
>> >> >> >I've already done it.
>> >> >> >
>> >> >> >George Z.
>> >> >>
>> >> >>
>> >> >> That's just the 8th. Then add the 9th and the 15th and all the air
>> >forces
>> >> >in
>> >> >> the Pacific and you have a total that makes air duty the most
>hazardous
>> >in
>> >> >the
>> >> >> history of of warfare. Wanna live? Join anything but the Air
>Forces..
>> >Or
>> >> >fly
>> >> >> B-52's over Iraq. Or do what Bush did. which was nothing.
>> >> >>
>> >> >
>> >> >You mean, 'which was fly a dangerous, difficult, occasionally
>explosive,
>> >> >1950's vintage supersonic interceptor for 3 years.'
>> >> >
>> >>
>> >> Piece of cake compared ot a B-26 Marauder. Check rhe records. And what
>> >did you
>> >> fly?
>> >>
>> >
>> >I wasn't even alive until 1977.
>> >
>> >And as far as I know, nobody was flying B26's during the Vietnam era. So
>try
>> >to compare apples to apples. At the time, the F102 was a far more
>perilous
>> >aircraft than many of the others flying at the time.
>> >
>>
>> How the hell would you know?
>>
>
>So nobody is able to know anything until the point of their actual birth?
>Kind of defeats the purpose of history books, no?
>
>I know because I've looked into it, the same way I know that there are
>pyramids in Egypt.
>
>

A very distant and impersonal route to knowledge.



Arthur Kramer
344th BG 494th BS
England, France, Belgium, Holland, Germany
Visit my WW II B-26 website at:
http://www.coastcomp.com/artkramer

[Steven P. McNicoll]

"ArtKramr" > wrote in message
...
>>
>>You mean, 'which was fly a dangerous, difficult, occasionally explosive,
>>1950's vintage supersonic interceptor for 3 years.'
>>
>
> Piece of cake compared ot a B-26 Marauder. Check rhe records.
>

The records indicate the B-26 had the lowest loss rate among US WWII
bombers.

[Steven P. McNicoll]

"Thomas J. Paladino Jr." > wrote in message
...
>
> And as far as I know, nobody was flying B26's during the Vietnam era.
>

Well, not Martin B-26s.

[Steven P. McNicoll]

"ArtKramr" > wrote in message
...
>>
>>I wasn't even alive until 1977.
>>
>>And as far as I know, nobody was flying B26's during the Vietnam era. So
>>try
>>to compare apples to apples. At the time, the F102 was a far more perilous
>>aircraft than many of the others flying at the time.
>>
>
> How the hell would you know?
>

Well, how the hell would you know?

[Steven P. McNicoll]

"ArtKramr" > wrote in message
...
>>
>>Champaign is in Illinois, not Texas.
>>
>
> It is used as an adjective. Not a noun.
>

Then it is used improperly.

[ArtKramr]

>Subject: Re: Why did Bush join the national guard?
>From: "Steven P. McNicoll"
>Date: 9/5/2004 2:47 PM Pacific Standard Time
>Message-id: t>
>
>
>"Thomas J. Paladino Jr." > wrote in message
...
>>
>> And as far as I know, nobody was flying B26's during the Vietnam era.
>>
>
>Well, not Martin B-26s.


And the highest rate of killing its crews.One a day in Tampa Bay. The
widowmaker, The B-dash-Crash.The flying Prostitute, The Flying Coffin. Got it
now wannabee?


Arthur Kramer
344th BG 494th BS
England, France, Belgium, Holland, Germany
Visit my WW II B-26 website at:
http://www.coastcomp.com/artkramer

[Thomas J. Paladino Jr.]

"ArtKramr" > wrote in message
...
> >Subject: Re: Why did Bush join the national guard?
> >From: "Thomas J. Paladino Jr."
> >Date: 9/5/2004 2:43 PM Pacific Standard Time
> >Message-id: >
> >
> >
> >"ArtKramr" > wrote in message
> ...
> >> >Subject: Re: Why did Bush join the national guard?
> >> >From: "Thomas J. Paladino Jr."
> >> >Date: 9/5/2004 1:52 PM Pacific Standard Time
> >> >Message-id: >
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >"ArtKramr" > wrote in message
> >> ...
> >> >> >Subject: Re: Why did Bush join the national guard?
> >> >> >From: "Thomas J. Paladino Jr."
> >> >> >Date: 9/5/2004 1:17 PM Pacific Standard Time
> >> >> >Message-id: >
> >> >> >
> >> >> >
> >> >> >"ArtKramr" > wrote in message
> >> >> ...
> >> >> >> >Subject: Re: Why did Bush join the national guard?
> >> >> >> >From: "George Z. Bush"
> >> >> >> >Date: 9/5/2004 12:33 PM Pacific Standard Time
> >> >> >> >Message-id: >
> >> >> >> >
> >> >> >> >Jack G wrote:
> >> >> >> >> OK Art, tell that to a combat Marine - face to face. If all
that
> >> >> >happens
> >> >> >> >is
> >> >> >> >> he asks you where you fought - and then laughs in your face
when
> >you
> >> >> >tell
> >> >> >> >> him you will be a very lucky man.
> >> >> >> >> Jack G.
> >> >> >> >
> >> >> >> >Just for the record, Jack, during WWII, the 8th Air Force
sustained
> >> >more
> >> >> >> >casualties over Europe than the entire United States Marine
Corps
> >did
> >> >> >> >world-wide
> >> >> >> >throughout the entire war. If you don't believe me, just ask
> >Google
> >> >the
> >> >> >> >right
> >> >> >> >questions and they'll provide the same answer that I just
did....I
> >> >know
> >> >> >> >because
> >> >> >> >I've already done it.
> >> >> >> >
> >> >> >> >George Z.
> >> >> >>
> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> That's just the 8th. Then add the 9th and the 15th and all the
air
> >> >forces
> >> >> >in
> >> >> >> the Pacific and you have a total that makes air duty the most
> >hazardous
> >> >in
> >> >> >the
> >> >> >> history of of warfare. Wanna live? Join anything but the Air
> >Forces..
> >> >Or
> >> >> >fly
> >> >> >> B-52's over Iraq. Or do what Bush did. which was nothing.
> >> >> >>
> >> >> >
> >> >> >You mean, 'which was fly a dangerous, difficult, occasionally
> >explosive,
> >> >> >1950's vintage supersonic interceptor for 3 years.'
> >> >> >
> >> >>
> >> >> Piece of cake compared ot a B-26 Marauder. Check rhe records. And
what
> >> >did you
> >> >> fly?
> >> >>
> >> >
> >> >I wasn't even alive until 1977.
> >> >
> >> >And as far as I know, nobody was flying B26's during the Vietnam era.
So
> >try
> >> >to compare apples to apples. At the time, the F102 was a far more
> >perilous
> >> >aircraft than many of the others flying at the time.
> >> >
> >>
> >> How the hell would you know?
> >>
> >
> >So nobody is able to know anything until the point of their actual birth?
> >Kind of defeats the purpose of history books, no?
> >
> >I know because I've looked into it, the same way I know that there are
> >pyramids in Egypt.
> >
> >
>
> A very distant and impersonal route to knowledge.

But almost always the only one available. Did you personally fly every
aircraft of the Vietnam era in order to make comparisons regarding their
flight characteristics? No, probably not. Just being alive at the time does
not give you an automatic knowledge of such things, and likewise, not having
been born yet does not necessarially mean that you don't know anything about
the subject either.

[ArtKramr]

>Subject: Re: Why did Bush join the national guard?
>From: "Thomas J. Paladino Jr."
>Date: 9/5/2004 2:56 PM Pacific Standard Time
>Message-id: >
>
>
>"ArtKramr" > wrote in message
...
>> >Subject: Re: Why did Bush join the national guard?
>> >From: "Thomas J. Paladino Jr."
>> >Date: 9/5/2004 2:43 PM Pacific Standard Time
>> >Message-id: >
>> >
>> >
>> >"ArtKramr" > wrote in message
>> ...
>> >> >Subject: Re: Why did Bush join the national guard?
>> >> >From: "Thomas J. Paladino Jr."
>> >> >Date: 9/5/2004 1:52 PM Pacific Standard Time
>> >> >Message-id: >
>> >> >
>> >> >
>> >> >"ArtKramr" > wrote in message
>> >> ...
>> >> >> >Subject: Re: Why did Bush join the national guard?
>> >> >> >From: "Thomas J. Paladino Jr."
>> >> >> >Date: 9/5/2004 1:17 PM Pacific Standard Time
>> >> >> >Message-id: >
>> >> >> >
>> >> >> >
>> >> >> >"ArtKramr" > wrote in message
>> >> >> ...
>> >> >> >> >Subject: Re: Why did Bush join the national guard?
>> >> >> >> >From: "George Z. Bush"
>> >> >> >> >Date: 9/5/2004 12:33 PM Pacific Standard Time
>> >> >> >> >Message-id: >
>> >> >> >> >
>> >> >> >> >Jack G wrote:
>> >> >> >> >> OK Art, tell that to a combat Marine - face to face. If all
>that
>> >> >> >happens
>> >> >> >> >is
>> >> >> >> >> he asks you where you fought - and then laughs in your face
>when
>> >you
>> >> >> >tell
>> >> >> >> >> him you will be a very lucky man.
>> >> >> >> >> Jack G.
>> >> >> >> >
>> >> >> >> >Just for the record, Jack, during WWII, the 8th Air Force
>sustained
>> >> >more
>> >> >> >> >casualties over Europe than the entire United States Marine
>Corps
>> >did
>> >> >> >> >world-wide
>> >> >> >> >throughout the entire war. If you don't believe me, just ask
>> >Google
>> >> >the
>> >> >> >> >right
>> >> >> >> >questions and they'll provide the same answer that I just
>did....I
>> >> >know
>> >> >> >> >because
>> >> >> >> >I've already done it.
>> >> >> >> >
>> >> >> >> >George Z.
>> >> >> >>
>> >> >> >>
>> >> >> >> That's just the 8th. Then add the 9th and the 15th and all the
>air
>> >> >forces
>> >> >> >in
>> >> >> >> the Pacific and you have a total that makes air duty the most
>> >hazardous
>> >> >in
>> >> >> >the
>> >> >> >> history of of warfare. Wanna live? Join anything but the Air
>> >Forces..
>> >> >Or
>> >> >> >fly
>> >> >> >> B-52's over Iraq. Or do what Bush did. which was nothing.
>> >> >> >>
>> >> >> >
>> >> >> >You mean, 'which was fly a dangerous, difficult, occasionally
>> >explosive,
>> >> >> >1950's vintage supersonic interceptor for 3 years.'
>> >> >> >
>> >> >>
>> >> >> Piece of cake compared ot a B-26 Marauder. Check rhe records. And
>what
>> >> >did you
>> >> >> fly?
>> >> >>
>> >> >
>> >> >I wasn't even alive until 1977.
>> >> >
>> >> >And as far as I know, nobody was flying B26's during the Vietnam era.
>So
>> >try
>> >> >to compare apples to apples. At the time, the F102 was a far more
>> >perilous
>> >> >aircraft than many of the others flying at the time.
>> >> >
>> >>
>> >> How the hell would you know?
>> >>
>> >
>> >So nobody is able to know anything until the point of their actual birth?
>> >Kind of defeats the purpose of history books, no?
>> >
>> >I know because I've looked into it, the same way I know that there are
>> >pyramids in Egypt.
>> >
>> >
>>
>> A very distant and impersonal route to knowledge.
>
>But almost always the only one available.

But that doesn't mean it's worth a damn.

..
Arthur Kramer
344th BG 494th BS
England, France, Belgium, Holland, Germany
Visit my WW II B-26 website at:
http://www.coastcomp.com/artkramer

[Steven P. McNicoll]

"ArtKramr" > wrote in message
...
> >Subject: Re: Why did Bush join the national guard?
>>From: "Steven P. McNicoll"
>>Date: 9/5/2004 2:47 PM Pacific Standard Time
>>Message-id: t>
>>
>>
>>"Thomas J. Paladino Jr." > wrote in message
...
>>>
>>> And as far as I know, nobody was flying B26's during the Vietnam era.
>>>
>>
>>Well, not Martin B-26s.
>
>
> And the highest rate of killing its crews.One a day in Tampa Bay. The
> widowmaker, The B-dash-Crash.The flying Prostitute, The Flying Coffin.
>

Actually, the B-26 had the lowest rate of killing it's crews.


>
> Got it now wannabee?
>

Nobody wants to be like you.

[ArtKramr]

>Subject: Re: Why did Bush join the national guard?
>From: "Steven P. McNicoll"
>Date: 9/5/2004 2:50 PM Pacific Standard Time
>Message-id: et>
>
>
>"ArtKramr" > wrote in message
...
>>>
>>>Champaign is in Illinois, not Texas.
>>>
>>
>> It is used as an adjective. Not a noun.
>>
>
>Then it is used improperly.


Then slap his wrist oh mighty warrior


Arthur Kramer
344th BG 494th BS
England, France, Belgium, Holland, Germany
Visit my WW II B-26 website at:
http://www.coastcomp.com/artkramer

[ArtKramr]

>Subject: Re: Why did Bush join the national guard?
>From: "Steven P. McNicoll"
>Date: 9/5/2004 3:00 PM Pacific Standard Time
>Message-id: et>
>
>
>"ArtKramr" > wrote in message
...
>> >Subject: Re: Why did Bush join the national guard?
>>>From: "Steven P. McNicoll"
>>>Date: 9/5/2004 2:47 PM Pacific Standard Time
>>>Message-id: t>
>>>
>>>
>>>"Thomas J. Paladino Jr." > wrote in message
...
>>>>
>>>> And as far as I know, nobody was flying B26's during the Vietnam era.
>>>>
>>>
>>>Well, not Martin B-26s.
>>
>>
>> And the highest rate of killing its crews.One a day in Tampa Bay. The
>> widowmaker, The B-dash-Crash.The flying Prostitute, The Flying Coffin.
>>
>
>Actually, the B-26 had the lowest rate of killing it's crews.
>
>
>>

Total absolute bull**** as usual I flew a tour in B-26's and I don't need
opinions from wannabeees like you who have zero air time in a B-26's or
anything else.


Arthur Kramer
344th BG 494th BS
England, France, Belgium, Holland, Germany
Visit my WW II B-26 website at:
http://www.coastcomp.com/artkramer

[Steven P. McNicoll]

"Thomas J. Paladino Jr." > wrote in message
...
>
> But almost always the only one available. Did you personally fly every
> aircraft of the Vietnam era in order to make comparisons regarding their
> flight characteristics? No, probably not. Just being alive at the time
> does
> not give you an automatic knowledge of such things, and likewise, not
> having
> been born yet does not necessarially mean that you don't know anything
> about
> the subject either.
>

Art knows nothing of Vietnam era aircraft. Art has learned nothing of
military aviation since the day he left the USAAF.

[Steven P. McNicoll]

"ArtKramr" > wrote in message
...
>>
>>Actually, the B-26 had the lowest rate of killing it's crews.
>>
>
> Total absolute bull**** as usual I flew a tour in B-26's and I don't need
> opinions from wannabeees like you who have zero air time in a B-26's or
> anything else.
>

It wasn't an opinion. Anybody that knows anything about the Martin B-26
knows it had the lowest loss rate. But don't take my word for it, look it
up yourself. Any B-26 reference will show it.

[ArtKramr]

>Subject: Re: Why did Bush join the national guard?
>From: "Steven P. McNicoll"
>Date: 9/5/2004 3:11 PM Pacific Standard Time
>Message-id: et>
>
>
>"ArtKramr" > wrote in message
...
>>>
>>>Actually, the B-26 had the lowest rate of killing it's crews.
>>>
>>
>> Total absolute bull**** as usual I flew a tour in B-26's and I don't need
>> opinions from wannabeees like you who have zero air time in a B-26's or
>> anything else.
>>
>
>It wasn't an opinion. Anybody that knows anything about the Martin B-26
>knows it had the lowest loss rate. But don't take my word for it, look it
>up yourself. Any B-26 reference will show it.
>


You are confusing losses in combat and losses in training. There is more than
one way to die in an airplane. Didn't you read about that in any of your
books?


Arthur Kramer
344th BG 494th BS
England, France, Belgium, Holland, Germany
Visit my WW II B-26 website at:
http://www.coastcomp.com/artkramer

[Steven P. McNicoll]

"ArtKramr" > wrote in message
...
>>
>>It wasn't an opinion. Anybody that knows anything about the Martin B-26
>>knows it had the lowest loss rate. But don't take my word for it, look it
>>up yourself. Any B-26 reference will show it.
>>
>
> You are confusing losses in combat and losses in training.
>

I'm not confusing anything. Obviously you're no expert on the B-26. Why,
you're just a wannabe!

[B2431]

>From: (ArtKramr)
>Date: 9/5/2004 3:56 PM Central Daylight Time
>Message-id: >
>
>>Subject: Re: Why did Bush join the national guard?
>>From: "Kevin Brooks"
>>Date: 9/5/2004 1:09 PM Pacific Standard Time
>>Message-id: >
>>
>>
>>"George Z. Bush" > wrote in message
...
>>> Jack G wrote:
>>> > OK Art, tell that to a combat Marine - face to face. If all that
>>happens is
>>> > he asks you where you fought - and then laughs in your face when you
>>tell
>>> > him you will be a very lucky man.
>>> > Jack G.
>>>
>>> Just for the record, Jack, during WWII, the 8th Air Force sustained more
>>> casualties over Europe than the entire United States Marine Corps did
>>world-wide
>>> throughout the entire war. If you don't believe me, just ask Google the
>>right
>>> questions and they'll provide the same answer that I just did....I know
>>because
>>> I've already done it.
>>
>>You must have done it wrong. "Half of the U.S. Army Air Forces' casualties
>>in World War II were suffered by Eighth Air Force (more than 47,000
>>casualties with more than 26,000 dead)."
>>(www.globalsecurity.org/military/agency/usaf/8af.htm )
>>
>>USMC casualties for the war totalled some ninety thousand, out of some 669K
>>who served in the USMC. Last I heard 90K was more than 47K. True, more 8th
>>AF personnel *died* in combat than Marines, but that is not what you said.
>>
>>Your use of "casualty" is normally inclusive of wounded, deaths due to other
>>than combat causes, and MIA.
>>
>>Brooks
>>
>>>
>>> George Z.
>>>
>>>
>
>
>And exactly what is your combat experience wannabee? Marines? Air Corps? A
>desk
>in the states? Anything at all?
>
>
>
>
>Arthur Kramer

I get it now, being a passenger on a B-26 makes you an expert on WW2 casualties
and an expert on all things 8th AF? Get over yourself, art, the facts and
figures in print are derived from official records.

Dan, U.S. Air Force, retired

[B2431]

>From: (ArtKramr)
>Date: 9/5/2004 2:26 PM Central Daylight Time
>Message-id: >
>
>>Subject: Re: Why did Bush join the national guard?
>>From: (BUFDRVR)
>>Date: 9/5/2004 11:52 AM Pacific Standard Time
>>Message-id: >
>>
>>ArtKramr wrote:
>>
>>>>How come you didn't join the Marines and volunteer for the Pacific?
>>>
>>>
>>>The Army Air Corps was a tougher outift that took higher losses.
>>
>>When you joined this was not only uncertain, but being touted as highly
>>unlikely, so don't give us this line of crap about joining because you knew
>>where the toughest action was going to be. The USAAF may have taken more
>>caualties in gross numbers, but the USMC in the Pacific had a much higher
>>percentage rate. Do a google on Tarawa.
>>
>>
>>BUFDRVR
>>
>
>Get back to me after you have fought in a real war. You are all ****ed up.
>The
>Army AIr Corps had the highest percentage But you fought in neither the AAC
>or
>the Mairnes. so what the hell do you know about anything?
>
>.
>Arthur Kramer
>

You weren't in the AAC either, art. It went out of business in 1941. You were
in the USAAF.

Dan, U.S. Air Force, retired

[B2431]

>From: "Bob Coe"

<snip>

You signed-up to ride
>around in an airplane at the governments expense, take the cash, and the
>heated barracks, and lay around like a ****ing queen, while real men fought.

Bob, that was uncalled for. Whatever else Art is he did serve in real combat in
the air. It was nothing like the ground war I experienced in Viet Nam, but it
was war.

No need to stoop to his level.

Besides, not all AAF crews slept in barracks, many stayed in unheated tents.

Dan, U.S. Air Force, retired

[B2431]

>From: (ArtKramr)
>Date: 9/5/2004 2:20 PM Central Daylight Time
>Message-id: >
>
>>Subject: Re: Why did Bush join the national guard?
>>From: (B2431)
>>Date: 9/5/2004 11:53 AM Pacific Standard Time
>>Message-id: >
>>
>>
>>>From: (ArtKramr)
>>>Date: 9/5/2004 11:59 AM Central Daylight Time
>>>Message-id: >
>>>
>>>Why did Bush join the National Guard instrae do the Army, Navy or Air
>>Force?
>>>why?
>>>
>>>
>>>Arthur Kramer
>>
>>He DID go into the Air Force. The ANG is a component of the USAF.
>>
>>Now why do you insist on posting off topic rants about a better man than
>you?
>>
>>Dan, U.S. Air Force, retired
>>
>
>
>He pulled strings to avoid combat. He is not much of a man.
>
>
>Arthur Kramer

You have yet to provide proof anyone pulled string in this matter. I can't
prove they didn't, but that doesn't mean they did.

What I can prove is you have repeatedly promised to stop initiating off topic
posts. You persist in doing so. This proves you are a liar which means anything
you say is suspect including your war stories.

Dan, U.S. Air Force, retired

[B2431]

>From: (ArtKramr)
>Date: 9/5/2004 3:59 PM Central Daylight Time
>Message-id: >
>
>>Subject: Re: Why did Bush join the national guard?
>>From: "Steven P. McNicoll"
>>Date: 9/5/2004 12:50 PM Pacific Standard Time
>>Message-id: et>
>>
>>
>>"ArtKramr" > wrote in message
...
>>>
>>> He pulled strings to avoid combat.
>>>
>>
>>What hard wvidence do you have of that?
>>
>>
>>>
>>> He is not much of a man.
>>>
>>
>>In your uninformed opinion.
>>
>
>
>He has the same combat record as you do. ZERO !
>
>
>
>
>Arthur Kramer
>

Art, what on earth does that have to do with anything? Just because you went
along for a ride on combat missions and dropped a few bombs doesn't make your
opinions any more valid than anyone else's especially since you think your
combat is the most important historical event since Adam and Eve.

Dan, U.S. Air Force, retired

[B2431]

>From: "Steven P. McNicoll"
>Date: 9/5/2004 2:49 PM Central Daylight Time
>Message-id: et>
>
>
>"B2431" > wrote in message
...
>>
>>>From: (ArtKramr)
>>>Date: 9/5/2004 11:59 AM Central Daylight Time
>>>Message-id: >
>>>
>>>Why did Bush join the National Guard instrae do the Army, Navy or
>>>Air Force?
>>>why?
>>>
>>
>> He DID go into the Air Force. The ANG is a component of the USAF.
>>
>
>Yes, but Art asked about the National Guard.

Which is a component of the Army which Bush never clauims to have joined.

Dan, U.S. Air Force, retired

[B2431]

>From: Mike Dargan
>Date: 9/5/2004 2:31 PM Central Daylight Time
>Message-id: <rQJ_c.36777$3l3.28824@attbi_s03>
>
>ArtKramr wrote:
>
>> Why did Bush join the National Guard instrae do the Army, Navy or Air
>Force?
>> why?
>
>At that time, TANG was a safe place to baby sit the children of
>privilege who were burdened by poor scores on military aptitude tests.
>I don't fault Bush's parents for buying their kid's way into the
>champaign squadron. It's important that the best and the brightest
>conserve their genes for future generations.
>
>Can you imagine the disaster if the shrub had been given hazardous duty
>which caused him to be disabled or killed before having the chance to
>breed and produce equally brilliant offspring? Where would we be
>without Jenna and Barbara?
>
>Cheers
>
>--mike
>

Firstly, attacking family members is uncalled for and is not the act of a
gentleman. The daughters had nothing to do with Bush's military service.

Secondly, neither you nor anyone else can provide verifiable proof Bush did or
didn't buy his way into ANG.

Thirdly, Bush was a fully qualified F-102 in TANG at the time TANG had F-102
elements in Viet Nam.

In summary you are rude and uninformed.

Dan, U.S. Air Force, retired

[ArtKramr]

>Subject: Re: Why did Bush join the national guard?
>From: (B2431)
>Date: 9/5/2004 3:54 PM Pacific Standard Time
>Message-id: >
>
>>From: (ArtKramr)
>>Date: 9/5/2004 3:59 PM Central Daylight Time
>>Message-id: >
>>
>>>Subject: Re: Why did Bush join the national guard?
>>>From: "Steven P. McNicoll"
>>>Date: 9/5/2004 12:50 PM Pacific Standard Time
>>>Message-id: et>
>>>
>>>
>>>"ArtKramr" > wrote in message
...
>>>>
>>>> He pulled strings to avoid combat.
>>>>
>>>
>>>What hard wvidence do you have of that?
>>>
>>>
>>>>
>>>> He is not much of a man.
>>>>
>>>
>>>In your uninformed opinion.
>>>
>>
>>
>>He has the same combat record as you do. ZERO !
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>Arthur Kramer
>>
>
>Art, what on earth does that have to do with anything? Just because you went
>along for a ride on combat missions and dropped a few bombs doesn't make your
>opinions any more valid than anyone else's especially since you think your
>combat is the most important historical event since Adam and Eve.
>
>Dan, U.S. Air Force, retired
>

It makes my opinion far more valid than anyone who never flew a mission
including you.


Arthur Kramer
344th BG 494th BS
England, France, Belgium, Holland, Germany
Visit my WW II B-26 website at:
http://www.coastcomp.com/artkramer

[B2431]

>From: "Kevin Brooks"
>Date: 9/5/2004 3:18 PM Central Daylight Time
>Message-id: >
>
>
>"George Z. Bush"

<snip> the usual george z manure
>>
>> That's just for the record, of course.
>
>Then your records are all screwed up.
>
>Brooks


First thing you have to understand is george z is a manure salesman with a
mouthful of samples. The second thing is he was never in the military and has
never bothered to figure out how the military actually works.

Dan, U.S. Air Force, retired

[ArtKramr]

>Subject: Re: Why did Bush join the national guard?
>From: (B2431)
>Date: 9/5/2004 3:51 PM Pacific Standard Time
>Message-id: >
>
>>From: (ArtKramr)
>>Date: 9/5/2004 2:20 PM Central Daylight Time
>>Message-id: >
>>
>>>Subject: Re: Why did Bush join the national guard?
>>>From: (B2431)
>>>Date: 9/5/2004 11:53 AM Pacific Standard Time
>>>Message-id: >
>>>
>>>
>>>>From: (ArtKramr)
>>>>Date: 9/5/2004 11:59 AM Central Daylight Time
>>>>Message-id: >
>>>>
>>>>Why did Bush join the National Guard instrae do the Army, Navy or Air
>>>Force?
>>>>why?
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>Arthur Kramer
>>>
>>>He DID go into the Air Force. The ANG is a component of the USAF.
>>>
>>>Now why do you insist on posting off topic rants about a better man than
>>you?
>>>
>>>Dan, U.S. Air Force, retired
>>>
>>
>>
>>He pulled strings to avoid combat. He is not much of a man.
>>
>>
>>Arthur Kramer
>
>You have yet to provide proof anyone pulled string in this matter. I can't
>prove they didn't, but that doesn't mean they did.
>
>What I can prove is you have repeatedly promised to stop initiating off topic
>posts. You persist in doing so. This proves you are a liar which means
>anything
>you say is suspect including your war stories.
>
>Dan, U.S. Air Force, retired
>
My milirtary reicrd isa an ioenb book on a day to day basis. Yours doesn't
exist in any manner or form. So I would say it is your record that is very
suspicious. In fact I am getting to doubt you have any record at all Can you
match Kerry's record? .


Arthur Kramer
344th BG 494th BS
England, France, Belgium, Holland, Germany
Visit my WW II B-26 website at:
http://www.coastcomp.com/artkramer

[B2431]

>From: (ArtKramr)
>Date: 9/5/2004 4:03 PM Central Daylight Time
>Message-id: >
>
>>Subject: Re: Why did Bush join the national guard?
>>From: "Kevin Brooks"
>>Date: 9/5/2004 1:18 PM Pacific Standard Time
>>Message-id: >
>>
>>
>>"George Z. Bush" > wrote in message
...
>>> Thomas J. Paladino Jr. wrote:
>>>
>>> > And for the record, when a proposal was floated to send F102s to
>>Vietnam,
>>> > Bush put his name in as a volunteer, however the powers that be decided
>>not
>>> > to use the plane.
>>>
>>> For the same record, when he first applied for flying training, he
>>indicated on
>>> his application that he did NOT desire an overseas assignment.
>>
>>Duh. He was in a National Guard unit. He could have put a big smiley face in
>>the other block and it would have made no difference. His duty assignment
>>was already set in concrete--he was going to return to his unit, the same
>>one that sent him to flight school in the first place. You are incapable of
>>understanding the differences between ANG and active component operations,
>>aren't you?
>>
>>
>>And he had only
>>> 300 flying hours in the F-102 when he volunteered for overseas duty after
>>he had
>>> been told that they wouldn't consider anybody with less than 500 hours.
>>
>>Nope, he first asked about Palace Alert, and was *then* told they were then
>>using the 500 hour limit; you have it all basackwards, as usual.
>>
>> It was
>>> a pretty safe thing to do.....asking for something you knew in advance
>>they
>>> weren't going to give you.
>>
>>Wrong again. You have been told this before, so I guess your continued use
>>of this tack is just your usual dishonest nature coming through
>>again...Palace Alert did not maintain a set-in-concrete 500 hour experience
>>requirement. The required experience level fluctuated based upon the pool of
>>volunteers they then had--which is why later, as the program wound down, a
>>mere junior LT found himself flying Palace Alert duty out of Iceland and
>>participating in one of the USAF's last F-102 intercepts of a Soviet
>>aircraft.
>>
>>>
>>> That's just for the record, of course.
>>
>>Then your records are all screwed up.
>>
>>Brooks
>>
>>>
>>> George Z.
>>>
>>>
>
>
>We are talking about military flying. A subject in which you have no
>experience
>whatever and therefore no right to comment.
>
>
>
>
>Arthur Kramer
>
It's an off topic anti Bush rant started by YOU. It has nothing to do with
military aviation so you have no right to tell others they can't comment.

I don't get the impression you are trying to change anyone's mind. You are
obviously posting for your own jollies. Tell me, do you masturbate when you
spew this stuff?

Dan, U.S. Air Force, retired

[ArtKramr]

>ubject: Re: Why did Bush join the national guard?
>From: (B2431)
>Date: 9/5/2004 3:45 PM Pacific Standard Time
>Message-id: >
>
>>From: "Bob Coe"
>
><snip>
>
>You signed-up to ride
>>around in an airplane at the governments expense, take the cash, and the
>>heated barracks, and lay around like a ****ing queen, while real men fought.
>
>Bob, that was uncalled for. Whatever else Art is he did serve in real combat
>in
>the air. It was nothing like the ground war I experienced in Viet Nam, but it
>was war.
>
>No need to stoop to his level.
>
>Besides, not all AAF crews slept in barracks, many stayed in unheated tents.
>
>Dan, U.S. Air Force, retired


Unheated tents all the way including the bitter cold winter of 1944-45 outside
Bastogne. Note that Coe never fought at all. Just like a neocon. The cowards
attack the soldiers.



Arthur Kramer
344th BG 494th BS
England, France, Belgium, Holland, Germany
Visit my WW II B-26 website at:
http://www.coastcomp.com/artkramer

[ArtKramr]

>ubject: Re: Why did Bush join the national guard?
>From: "Steven P. McNicoll"
>Date: 9/5/2004 3:33 PM Pacific Standard Time
>Message-id: t>
>
>
>"ArtKramr" > wrote in message
...
>>>
>>>It wasn't an opinion. Anybody that knows anything about the Martin B-26
>>>knows it had the lowest loss rate. But don't take my word for it, look it
>>>up yourself. Any B-26 reference will show it.
>>>
>>
>> You are confusing losses in combat and losses in training.
>>
>
>I'm not confusing anything. Obviously you're no expert on the B-26. Why,
>you're just a wannabe!


Neocon logic.


Arthur Kramer
344th BG 494th BS
England, France, Belgium, Holland, Germany
Visit my WW II B-26 website at:
http://www.coastcomp.com/artkramer

[ArtKramr]

>Subject: Re: Why did Bush join the national guard?
>From: (B2431)
>Date: 9/5/2004 3:41 PM Pacific Standard Time
>Message-id: >
>
>>From: (ArtKramr)
>>Date: 9/5/2004 3:56 PM Central Daylight Time
>>Message-id: >
>>
>>>Subject: Re: Why did Bush join the national guard?
>>>From: "Kevin Brooks"
>>>Date: 9/5/2004 1:09 PM Pacific Standard Time
>>>Message-id: >
>>>
>>>
>>>"George Z. Bush" > wrote in message
...
>>>> Jack G wrote:
>>>> > OK Art, tell that to a combat Marine - face to face. If all that
>>>happens is
>>>> > he asks you where you fought - and then laughs in your face when you
>>>tell
>>>> > him you will be a very lucky man.
>>>> > Jack G.
>>>>
>>>> Just for the record, Jack, during WWII, the 8th Air Force sustained more
>>>> casualties over Europe than the entire United States Marine Corps did
>>>world-wide
>>>> throughout the entire war. If you don't believe me, just ask Google the
>>>right
>>>> questions and they'll provide the same answer that I just did....I know
>>>because
>>>> I've already done it.
>>>
>>>You must have done it wrong. "Half of the U.S. Army Air Forces' casualties
>>>in World War II were suffered by Eighth Air Force (more than 47,000
>>>casualties with more than 26,000 dead)."
>>>(www.globalsecurity.org/military/agency/usaf/8af.htm )
>>>
>>>USMC casualties for the war totalled some ninety thousand, out of some 669K
>>>who served in the USMC. Last I heard 90K was more than 47K. True, more 8th
>>>AF personnel *died* in combat than Marines, but that is not what you said.
>>>
>>>Your use of "casualty" is normally inclusive of wounded, deaths due to
>other
>>>than combat causes, and MIA.
>>>
>>>Brooks
>>>
>>>>
>>>> George Z.
>>>>
>>>>
>>
>>
>>And exactly what is your combat experience wannabee? Marines? Air Corps? A
>>desk
>>in the states? Anything at all?
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>Arthur Kramer
>
>I get it now, being a passenger on a B-26 makes you an expert on WW2
>casualties
>and an expert on all things 8th AF? Get over yourself, art, the facts and
>figures in print are derived from official records.
>
>Dan, U.S. Air Force, retired
>


The guys who wrote the records weren't there. And neither were you..



Arthur Kramer
344th BG 494th BS
England, France, Belgium, Holland, Germany
Visit my WW II B-26 website at:
http://www.coastcomp.com/artkramer

[Bob Coe]

"ArtKramr" > wrote
>
> Neocon logic.

What's a neocon?

[ArtKramr]

>Subject: Re: Why did Bush join the national guard?
>From: (B2431)
>Date: 9/5/2004 3:42 PM Pacific Standard Time
>Message-id: >
>
>>From: (ArtKramr)
>>Date: 9/5/2004 2:26 PM Central Daylight Time
>>Message-id: >
>>
>>>Subject: Re: Why did Bush join the national guard?
>>>From: (BUFDRVR)
>>>Date: 9/5/2004 11:52 AM Pacific Standard Time
>>>Message-id: >
>>>
>>>ArtKramr wrote:
>>>
>>>>>How come you didn't join the Marines and volunteer for the Pacific?
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>The Army Air Corps was a tougher outift that took higher losses.
>>>
>>>When you joined this was not only uncertain, but being touted as highly
>>>unlikely, so don't give us this line of crap about joining because you knew
>>>where the toughest action was going to be. The USAAF may have taken more
>>>caualties in gross numbers, but the USMC in the Pacific had a much higher
>>>percentage rate. Do a google on Tarawa.
>>>
>>>
>>>BUFDRVR
>>>
>>
>>Get back to me after you have fought in a real war. You are all ****ed up.
>>The
>>Army AIr Corps had the highest percentage But you fought in neither the AAC
>>or
>>the Mairnes. so what the hell do you know about anything?
>>
>>.
>>Arthur Kramer
>>
>
>You weren't in the AAC either, art. It went out of business in 1941. You were
>in the USAAF.
>
>Dan, U.S. Air Force, retired
>

Bull****. I have in front of me my report of separation of service dated 16
August 1946 and under Branch it is clearly marked Army Air Corps. Can't you
get anything right?


Arthur Kramer
344th BG 494th BS
England, France, Belgium, Holland, Germany
Visit my WW II B-26 website at:
http://www.coastcomp.com/artkramer

[Bob Coe]

"ArtKramr" > wrote
>
> The guys who wrote the records weren't there. And neither were you..

How do you know? Did you falsify the records? Give them ****
in the report?

[Bob Coe]

"ArtKramr" > wrote
>
> Note that Coe never fought at all. Just like a neocon.

How would you know? What's a neocon?

[ArtKramr]

>Subject: Re: Why did Bush join the national guard?
>From: (B2431)
>Date: 9/5/2004 4:08 PM Pacific Standard Time
>Message-id: >
>
>>From: "Kevin Brooks"
>>Date: 9/5/2004 3:18 PM Central Daylight Time
>>Message-id: >
>>
>>
>>"George Z. Bush"
>
><snip> the usual george z manure
>>>
>>> That's just for the record, of course.
>>
>>Then your records are all screwed up.
>>
>>Brooks
>
>
>First thing you have to understand is george z is a manure salesman with a
>mouthful of samples. The second thing is he was never in the military and has
>never bothered to figure out how the military actually works.
>
>Dan, U.S. Air Force, retired
>

I think Geoirge Z flew C-47's in WW II as a troop carrier pilot. It's about
time you told us what you did instead of attacking everyone while you conceal
your great combat experiences. You get more like Bush every day.

..
Arthur Kramer
344th BG 494th BS
England, France, Belgium, Holland, Germany
Visit my WW II B-26 website at:
http://www.coastcomp.com/artkramer

[Raoul]

> >>
> >>
> >>He has the same combat record as you do. ZERO !
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>Arthur Kramer
> >>
> >
> >Art, what on earth does that have to do with anything? Just because you went
> >along for a ride on combat missions and dropped a few bombs doesn't make your
> >opinions any more valid than anyone else's especially since you think your
> >combat is the most important historical event since Adam and Eve.
> >
> >Dan, U.S. Air Force, retired
> >
>
> It makes my opinion far more valid than anyone who never flew a mission
> including you.

You know, Art, I respect all who served their country. I haven't been
in the military but, as one of the protected. I respect my protectors-
all of them.

It's a little unseemly how you feel that your actions at least 58 years
ago somehow make your opinions on battle more worthy than others. You
flew in a plane and risked your life. I respect that fact but it just
doesn't make your opinon worth any more than anyone else. I can read
accounts of battle and I have heard plenty of vets tell me about what
they did in battle. My father served in WWII. He graduated as a
pharmacist in 1942 so, surprisingly, knowing how the military works,
the Navy assigned him to work in a hospital in Idaho. Considering how
many died and were injured, I'm glad of that because, if he hadn't had
such light duty, I might not be here. The point is, though, he was
doing the job his government asked him to do and did it to the best of
his ability. My Dad was a peaceful man and I just can't see him
shooting a gun at someone or dropping a bomb on them so I guess it was
lucky he was more valuable as a medic than as a warrior. I know that he
would have been a warrior if he was asked to do so but I'm afraid he
would have been better pushing pills than pulling triggers.

The point is that he did his part. He opinion about battle is no more
nor less valuable than yours.

raoul

[Bob Coe]

"ArtKramr" > wrote
>
> It makes my opinion far more valid than anyone who never flew a mission
> including you.

You win grandpa... Can't fight someone's opinion with facts.

[Steven P. McNicoll]

"B2431" > wrote in message
...
>
> You weren't in the AAC either, art. It went out of business in 1941. You
> were
> in the USAAF.
>

Not exactly. The Air Corps still existed as an administrative unit until
the establishment of the USAF.

[Steven P. McNicoll]

"B2431" > wrote in message
...
> >From: "Steven P. McNicoll"
>>Date: 9/5/2004 2:49 PM Central Daylight Time
>>Message-id: et>
>>
>>
>>"B2431" > wrote in message
...
>>>
>>>>From: (ArtKramr)
>>>>Date: 9/5/2004 11:59 AM Central Daylight Time
>>>>Message-id: >
>>>>
>>>>Why did Bush join the National Guard instrae do the Army, Navy or
>>>>Air Force?
>>>>why?
>>>>
>>>
>>> He DID go into the Air Force. The ANG is a component of the USAF.
>>>
>>
>>Yes, but Art asked about the National Guard.
>
> Which is a component of the Army which Bush never clauims to have joined.
>

Zackly.

[ArtKramr]

>Subject: Re: Why did Bush join the national guard?
>From: Raoul
>Date: 9/5/2004 5:18 PM Pacific Standard Time
>Message-id: >
>
>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>He has the same combat record as you do. ZERO !
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>Arthur Kramer
>> >>
>> >
>> >Art, what on earth does that have to do with anything? Just because you
>went
>> >along for a ride on combat missions and dropped a few bombs doesn't make
>your
>> >opinions any more valid than anyone else's especially since you think your
>> >combat is the most important historical event since Adam and Eve.
>> >
>> >Dan, U.S. Air Force, retired
>> >
>>
>> It makes my opinion far more valid than anyone who never flew a mission
>> including you.
>
>You know, Art, I respect all who served their country. I haven't been
>in the military but, as one of the protected. I respect my protectors-
>all of them.
>
>It's a little unseemly how you feel that your actions at least 58 years
>ago somehow make your opinions on battle more worthy than others. You
>flew in a plane and risked your life. I respect that fact but it just
>doesn't make your opinon worth any more than anyone else. I can read
>accounts of battle and I have heard plenty of vets tell me about what
>they did in battle. My father served in WWII. He graduated as a
>pharmacist in 1942 so, surprisingly, knowing how the military works,
>the Navy assigned him to work in a hospital in Idaho. Considering how
>many died and were injured, I'm glad of that because, if he hadn't had
>such light duty, I might not be here. The point is, though, he was
>doing the job his government asked him to do and did it to the best of
>his ability. My Dad was a peaceful man and I just can't see him
>shooting a gun at someone or dropping a bomb on them so I guess it was
>lucky he was more valuable as a medic than as a warrior. I know that he
>would have been a warrior if he was asked to do so but I'm afraid he
>would have been better pushing pills than pulling triggers.
>
>The point is that he did his part. He opinion about battle is no more
>nor less valuable than yours.
>
>raoul
>

I never said it was. It is all crap you made up.


Arthur Kramer
344th BG 494th BS
England, France, Belgium, Holland, Germany
Visit my WW II B-26 website at:
http://www.coastcomp.com/artkramer

[Steve Hix]

> "ArtKramr" > wrote
> >
> > Bush refused to vounteer. And he did it in writing.

For pity's sake, Art. This is a non issue. It was discussed to death
months ago here, and it doesn't mean what you're trying to imply.

[ArtKramr]

>Subject: Re: Even if you were right, was Re: Why did Bush join the national
>guard?
>From: Steve Hix
>Date: 9/5/2004 5:26 PM Pacific Standard Time
>Message-id: >
>
>> "ArtKramr" > wrote
>> >
>> > Bush refused to vounteer. And he did it in writing.
>
>For pity's sake, Art. This is a non issue. It was discussed to death
>months ago here, and it doesn't mean what you're trying to imply.
>

Everything about Bush is a non issue right? How about everything about Kerry?
Also a non issue? You can't have it both ways.


Arthur Kramer
344th BG 494th BS
England, France, Belgium, Holland, Germany
Visit my WW II B-26 website at:
http://www.coastcomp.com/artkramer

[Bob Coe]

"ArtKramr" > wrote
>
> Bull****. I have in front of me my report of separation of service dated 16
> August 1946 and under Branch it is clearly marked Army Air Corps.

Maybe you're right, the people who did the paperwork weren't there, and
it's all a big lie, that you really never served at all.

Hey! This game is fun...

I bet they were sipping martini's and just wrote your name in. Maybe you
were just on the next bar stool over the whole time.

[Bob Coe]

"ArtKramr" > wrote
>
> Everything about Bush is a non issue right? How about everything about Kerry?
> Also a non issue? You can't have it both ways.

As far as their service to the country 35 years ago, yes, it's a non-issue,
you are correct.

[Mike Dargan]

ArtKramr wrote:
>>Subject: Re: Why did Bush join the national guard?
>>From: "Steven P. McNicoll"
>>Date: 9/5/2004 12:52 PM Pacific Standard Time
>>Message-id: et>
>>
>>
>>"Mike Dargan" > wrote in message
>>news:rQJ_c.36777$3l3.28824@attbi_s03...
>>
>>>At that time, TANG was a safe place to baby sit the children of privilege
>>>who were burdened by poor scores on military aptitude tests. I don't fault
>>>Bush's parents for buying their kid's way into the champaign squadron.
>>>It's important that the best and the brightest conserve their genes for
>>>future generations.
>>>
>>
>>Champaign is in Illinois, not Texas.
>
>
>
> It is used as an adjective. Not a noun.

I should have used "champagne" instead. A few use "champaign" to refer
to the bubbly wine, but it's more of a geographical term. So, I stand
corrected.

Cheers

--mike
>
>
> Arthur Kramer
> 344th BG 494th BS
> England, France, Belgium, Holland, Germany
> Visit my WW II B-26 website at:
> http://www.coastcomp.com/artkramer
>

[B2431]

>national guard?
>From: (ArtKramr)
>Date: 9/5/2004 7:26 PM Central Daylight Time
>Message-id: >
>
>>Subject: Re: Why did Bush join the national guard?
>>From: Raoul
>>Date: 9/5/2004 5:18 PM Pacific Standard Time
>>Message-id: >
>>
>>
>>> >>
>>> >>
>>> >>He has the same combat record as you do. ZERO !
>>> >>
>>> >>
>>> >>
>>> >>
>>> >>Arthur Kramer
>>> >>
>>> >
>>> >Art, what on earth does that have to do with anything? Just because you
>>went
>>> >along for a ride on combat missions and dropped a few bombs doesn't make
>>your
>>> >opinions any more valid than anyone else's especially since you think
>your
>>> >combat is the most important historical event since Adam and Eve.
>>> >
>>> >Dan, U.S. Air Force, retired
>>> >
>>>
>>> It makes my opinion far more valid than anyone who never flew a mission
>>> including you.
>>
>>You know, Art, I respect all who served their country. I haven't been
>>in the military but, as one of the protected. I respect my protectors-
>>all of them.
>>
>>It's a little unseemly how you feel that your actions at least 58 years
>>ago somehow make your opinions on battle more worthy than others. You
>>flew in a plane and risked your life. I respect that fact but it just
>>doesn't make your opinon worth any more than anyone else. I can read
>>accounts of battle and I have heard plenty of vets tell me about what
>>they did in battle. My father served in WWII. He graduated as a
>>pharmacist in 1942 so, surprisingly, knowing how the military works,
>>the Navy assigned him to work in a hospital in Idaho. Considering how
>>many died and were injured, I'm glad of that because, if he hadn't had
>>such light duty, I might not be here. The point is, though, he was
>>doing the job his government asked him to do and did it to the best of
>>his ability. My Dad was a peaceful man and I just can't see him
>>shooting a gun at someone or dropping a bomb on them so I guess it was
>>lucky he was more valuable as a medic than as a warrior. I know that he
>>would have been a warrior if he was asked to do so but I'm afraid he
>>would have been better pushing pills than pulling triggers.
>>
>>The point is that he did his part. He opinion about battle is no more
>>nor less valuable than yours.
>>
>>raoul
>>
>
>I never said it was. It is all crap you made up.
>
>
>Arthur Kramer
>

Art, do you know you are lying when you do it? Read on:

"Subject: Re: Why did Bush join the national guard?
From: (ArtKramr)
Date: 9/5/2004 6:05 PM Central Daylight Time
Message-id: >

>Subject: Re: Why did Bush join the national guard?
>From: (B2431)
>Date: 9/5/2004 3:54 PM Pacific Standard Time
>Message-id: >
>
>>From: (ArtKramr)
>>Date: 9/5/2004 3:59 PM Central Daylight Time
>>Message-id: >
>>
>>>Subject: Re: Why did Bush join the national guard?
>>>From: "Steven P. McNicoll"
>>>Date: 9/5/2004 12:50 PM Pacific Standard Time
>>>Message-id: et>
>>>
>>>
>>>"ArtKramr" > wrote in message
...
>>>>
>>>> He pulled strings to avoid combat.
>>>>
>>>
>>>What hard wvidence do you have of that?
>>>
>>>
>>>>
>>>> He is not much of a man.
>>>>
>>>
>>>In your uninformed opinion.
>>>
>>
>>
>>He has the same combat record as you do. ZERO !
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>Arthur Kramer
>>
>
>Art, what on earth does that have to do with anything? Just because you went
>along for a ride on combat missions and dropped a few bombs doesn't make your
>opinions any more valid than anyone else's especially since you think your
>combat is the most important historical event since Adam and Eve.
>
>Dan, U.S. Air Force, retired
>

It makes my opinion far more valid than anyone who never flew a mission
including you.


Arthur Kramer
344th BG 494th BS
England, France, Belgium, Holland, Germany
Visit my WW II B-26 website at:
http://www.coastcomp.com/artkramer"

Dan, U.S. Air Force, retired

[B2431]

>From: (ArtKramr)
>Date: 9/5/2004 6:13 PM Central Daylight Time
>Message-id: >
>
>>ubject: Re: Why did Bush join the national guard?
>>From: (B2431)
>>Date: 9/5/2004 3:45 PM Pacific Standard Time
>>Message-id: >
>>
>>>From: "Bob Coe"
>>
>><snip>
>>
>>You signed-up to ride
>>>around in an airplane at the governments expense, take the cash, and the
>>>heated barracks, and lay around like a ****ing queen, while real men
>fought.
>>
>>Bob, that was uncalled for. Whatever else Art is he did serve in real combat
>>in
>>the air. It was nothing like the ground war I experienced in Viet Nam, but
>it
>>was war.
>>
>>No need to stoop to his level.
>>
>>Besides, not all AAF crews slept in barracks, many stayed in unheated tents.
>>
>>Dan, U.S. Air Force, retired
>
>
>Unheated tents all the way including the bitter cold winter of 1944-45
>outside
>Bastogne. Note that Coe never fought at all. Just like a neocon. The cowards
>attack the soldiers.
>
>
>
>Arthur Kramer

Art, you have done way more bashing of soldiers and other servicemen in this NG
than anyone else.

Dan, U.S. Air Force, retired

[B2431]

>From: "Bob Coe"
>Date: 9/5/2004 7:15 PM Central Daylight Time
>Message-id: <%_N_c.18426$ni.4304@okepread01>
>
>"ArtKramr" > wrote
>>
>> Note that Coe never fought at all. Just like a neocon.
>
>How would you know? What's a neocon?
>

Art has no idea what a neocon is. He thinks it's a cutsey word so he uses it on
everyone who disagrees with him or points out his hypocracies and lies.

Dan, U.S. Air Force, retired

[B2431]

>From: (ArtKramr)
>Date: 9/5/2004 7:10 PM Central Daylight Time
>Message-id: >
>
>>Subject: Re: Why did Bush join the national guard?
>>From: (B2431)
>>Date: 9/5/2004 3:42 PM Pacific Standard Time
>>Message-id: >
>>
>>>From: (ArtKramr)
>>>Date: 9/5/2004 2:26 PM Central Daylight Time
>>>Message-id: >
>>>
>>>>Subject: Re: Why did Bush join the national guard?
>>>>From: (BUFDRVR)
>>>>Date: 9/5/2004 11:52 AM Pacific Standard Time
>>>>Message-id: >
>>>>
>>>>ArtKramr wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>>How come you didn't join the Marines and volunteer for the Pacific?
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>The Army Air Corps was a tougher outift that took higher losses.
>>>>
>>>>When you joined this was not only uncertain, but being touted as highly
>>>>unlikely, so don't give us this line of crap about joining because you
>knew
>>>>where the toughest action was going to be. The USAAF may have taken more
>>>>caualties in gross numbers, but the USMC in the Pacific had a much higher
>>>>percentage rate. Do a google on Tarawa.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>BUFDRVR
>>>>
>>>
>>>Get back to me after you have fought in a real war. You are all ****ed up.
>>>The
>>>Army AIr Corps had the highest percentage But you fought in neither the AAC
>>>or
>>>the Mairnes. so what the hell do you know about anything?
>>>
>>>.
>>>Arthur Kramer
>>>
>>
>>You weren't in the AAC either, art. It went out of business in 1941. You
>were
>>in the USAAF.
>>
>>Dan, U.S. Air Force, retired
>>
>
>Bull****. I have in front of me my report of separation of service dated 16
>August 1946 and under Branch it is clearly marked Army Air Corps. Can't you
>get anything right?
>
>
>Arthur Kramer

Maybe they did, but the USAAF was established 20 June 1941.

http://www.af.mil/history/overview.asp

Unless you want to say they are liars and neocons too.

Dan, U.S. Air Force, retired

[Jack G]

How the Hell would you know Art - you obviously don't have any direct
experience with history books...

Jack G.
> >
>
> A very distant and impersonal route to knowledge.
>
>
>
> Arthur Kramer
> 344th BG 494th BS
> England, France, Belgium, Holland, Germany
> Visit my WW II B-26 website at:
> http://www.coastcomp.com/artkramer
>

[B2431]

>From: (ArtKramr)
>Date: 9/5/2004 6:16 PM Central Daylight Time
>Message-id: >
>
>>Subject: Re: Why did Bush join the national guard?
>>From: (B2431)
>>Date: 9/5/2004 3:41 PM Pacific Standard Time
>>Message-id: >
>>
>>>From: (ArtKramr)
>>>Date: 9/5/2004 3:56 PM Central Daylight Time
>>>Message-id: >
>>>
>>>>Subject: Re: Why did Bush join the national guard?
>>>>From: "Kevin Brooks"
>>>>Date: 9/5/2004 1:09 PM Pacific Standard Time
>>>>Message-id: >
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>"George Z. Bush" > wrote in message
...
>>>>> Jack G wrote:
>>>>> > OK Art, tell that to a combat Marine - face to face. If all that
>>>>happens is
>>>>> > he asks you where you fought - and then laughs in your face when you
>>>>tell
>>>>> > him you will be a very lucky man.
>>>>> > Jack G.
>>>>>
>>>>> Just for the record, Jack, during WWII, the 8th Air Force sustained more
>>>>> casualties over Europe than the entire United States Marine Corps did
>>>>world-wide
>>>>> throughout the entire war. If you don't believe me, just ask Google the
>>>>right
>>>>> questions and they'll provide the same answer that I just did....I know
>>>>because
>>>>> I've already done it.
>>>>
>>>>You must have done it wrong. "Half of the U.S. Army Air Forces' casualties
>>>>in World War II were suffered by Eighth Air Force (more than 47,000
>>>>casualties with more than 26,000 dead)."
>>>>(www.globalsecurity.org/military/agency/usaf/8af.htm )
>>>>
>>>>USMC casualties for the war totalled some ninety thousand, out of some
>669K
>>>>who served in the USMC. Last I heard 90K was more than 47K. True, more 8th
>>>>AF personnel *died* in combat than Marines, but that is not what you said.
>>>>
>>>>Your use of "casualty" is normally inclusive of wounded, deaths due to
>>other
>>>>than combat causes, and MIA.
>>>>
>>>>Brooks
>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> George Z.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>And exactly what is your combat experience wannabee? Marines? Air Corps? A
>>>desk
>>>in the states? Anything at all?
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>Arthur Kramer
>>
>>I get it now, being a passenger on a B-26 makes you an expert on WW2
>>casualties
>>and an expert on all things 8th AF? Get over yourself, art, the facts and
>>figures in print are derived from official records.
>>
>>Dan, U.S. Air Force, retired
>>
>
>
>The guys who wrote the records weren't there. And neither were you..
>
>
>
>Arthur Kramer

The guys who wrote the records WERE there. They were admin personnel is your
unit and all the other units that served.

Do you seriously suggest all the records, forms and documents that exist from
those units were made up by people who weren't there?

Dan, U.S. Air Force, retired

[B2431]

>From: (ArtKramr)
>Date: 9/5/2004 6:14 PM Central Daylight Time
>Message-id: >
>
>>ubject: Re: Why did Bush join the national guard?
>>From: "Steven P. McNicoll"
>>Date: 9/5/2004 3:33 PM Pacific Standard Time
>>Message-id: t>
>>
>>
>>"ArtKramr" > wrote in message
...
>>>>
>>>>It wasn't an opinion. Anybody that knows anything about the Martin B-26
>>>>knows it had the lowest loss rate. But don't take my word for it, look it
>>>>up yourself. Any B-26 reference will show it.
>>>>
>>>
>>> You are confusing losses in combat and losses in training.
>>>
>>
>>I'm not confusing anything. Obviously you're no expert on the B-26. Why,
>>you're just a wannabe!
>
>
>Neocon logic.
>
>
>Arthur Kramer

It's the same logic you use. Are you a neocon?

Dan, U.S. Air Force, retired

[Peter Stickney]

In article >,
(ArtKramr) writes:
>>Subject: Re: Why did Bush join the national guard?
>>From: "Steven P. McNicoll"
>>Date: 9/5/2004 2:47 PM Pacific Standard Time
>>Message-id: t>
>>
>>
>>"Thomas J. Paladino Jr." > wrote in message
...
>>>
>>> And as far as I know, nobody was flying B26's during the Vietnam era.
>>>
>>
>>Well, not Martin B-26s.
>
>
> And the highest rate of killing its crews.One a day in Tampa Bay. The
> widowmaker, The B-dash-Crash.The flying Prostitute, The Flying Coffin. Got it
> now wannabee?

Art, The Army Air Force Statistical Digest disagrees with you. While
the Martin B-26 had the highest accident rate of any _Medium_ Bomber
(Medium being the B-25, B-26, and the Lockheed B-34), it never
approached the accident rate of the A-20, which had roughly twice teh
number lost per 100,000 Flight Hours, and all of the various
Fighter/Pursuit types.

Those aren't subjective impressions - they're hard facts, backed up by
the cold, unfeeling numbers.

--
Pete Stickney
A strong conviction that something must be done is the parent of many
bad measures. -- Daniel Webster

[J Haggerty]

Why did you join the Army Air Corps instead of the infantry, Navy, Coast
Guard, or Marines?

ArtKramr wrote:
> Why did Bush join the National Guard instrae do the Army, Navy or Air Force?
> why?
>
>
> Arthur Kramer
> 344th BG 494th BS
> England, France, Belgium, Holland, Germany
> Visit my WW II B-26 website at:
> http://www.coastcomp.com/artkramer
>

[Thomas J. Paladino Jr.]

"Bob Coe" > wrote in message
news:tVN_c.18423$ni.10541@okepread01...
> "ArtKramr" > wrote
> >
> > Neocon logic.
>
> What's a neocon?
>
>

Has he ever answered that?

[Thomas J. Paladino Jr.]

"Bob Coe" > wrote in message
news:bhO_c.18433$ni.15821@okepread01...
> "ArtKramr" > wrote
> >
> > Everything about Bush is a non issue right? How about everything about
Kerry?
> > Also a non issue? You can't have it both ways.
>
> As far as their service to the country 35 years ago, yes, it's a
non-issue,
> you are correct.
>

It is of course a non issue. Or at least it should be. Unfortunately, Kerry
chose to make his three months in Vietnam the foundation of his campaign, so
here we are discussing things that have basically no bearing on todays
world. I am far more interested in what Kerry did in the senate for the last
20 years, but I have yet to hear him mention that in any kind of detail even
once. Kinda makes one think he has something to hide, no?

[J Haggerty]

Pete wrote:

> "ArtKramr" > wrote
>
>
>>Bush refused to vounteer. And he did it in writing.
>
>
> 6 million of the 9 million people on active duty during the Vietnam era
> never saw SEA. Will you belittle their service as well?
>
> Pete
>
>
I'm sure he will. After all, they didn't ride in B-26's in WWII, so to
Art, their service is meaningless.

JPH

[Kevin Brooks]

"ArtKramr" > wrote in message
...
> >Subject: Re: Why did Bush join the national guard?
> >From: "Kevin Brooks"
> >Date: 9/5/2004 1:09 PM Pacific Standard Time
> >Message-id: >
> >
> >
> >"George Z. Bush" > wrote in message
> ...
> >> Jack G wrote:
> >> > OK Art, tell that to a combat Marine - face to face. If all that
> >happens is
> >> > he asks you where you fought - and then laughs in your face when you
> >tell
> >> > him you will be a very lucky man.
> >> > Jack G.
> >>
> >> Just for the record, Jack, during WWII, the 8th Air Force sustained
more
> >> casualties over Europe than the entire United States Marine Corps did
> >world-wide
> >> throughout the entire war. If you don't believe me, just ask Google
the
> >right
> >> questions and they'll provide the same answer that I just did....I know
> >because
> >> I've already done it.
> >
> >You must have done it wrong. "Half of the U.S. Army Air Forces'
casualties
> >in World War II were suffered by Eighth Air Force (more than 47,000
> >casualties with more than 26,000 dead)."
> >(www.globalsecurity.org/military/agency/usaf/8af.htm )
> >
> >USMC casualties for the war totalled some ninety thousand, out of some
669K
> >who served in the USMC. Last I heard 90K was more than 47K. True, more
8th
> >AF personnel *died* in combat than Marines, but that is not what you
said.
> >
> >Your use of "casualty" is normally inclusive of wounded, deaths due to
other
> >than combat causes, and MIA.
> >
> >Brooks
> >
> >>
> >> George Z.
> >>
> >>
>
>
> And exactly what is your combat experience wannabee? Marines? Air Corps? A
desk
> in the states? Anything at all?

I was born in 1962. A bit late for WWII, OK? Now, that said, the numbers
speak for themselves--or are you going to say the old War Department
statistics are all wrong? And for the last time--NOBODY wants to be you, OK?
Who wants to become a sad, whining, bitter little twit with a serious
self-esteem problem like the sorry excuse for a man that you have become?

Brooks

>
>
>
>
> Arthur Kramer

[Kevin Brooks]

"ArtKramr" > wrote in message
...
> >Subject: Re: Why did Bush join the national guard?
> >From: "Kevin Brooks"
> >Date: 9/5/2004 1:18 PM Pacific Standard Time
> >Message-id: >
> >
> >
> >"George Z. Bush" > wrote in message
> ...
> >> Thomas J. Paladino Jr. wrote:
> >>
> >> > And for the record, when a proposal was floated to send F102s to
> >Vietnam,
> >> > Bush put his name in as a volunteer, however the powers that be
decided
> >not
> >> > to use the plane.
> >>
> >> For the same record, when he first applied for flying training, he
> >indicated on
> >> his application that he did NOT desire an overseas assignment.
> >
> >Duh. He was in a National Guard unit. He could have put a big smiley face
in
> >the other block and it would have made no difference. His duty assignment
> >was already set in concrete--he was going to return to his unit, the same
> >one that sent him to flight school in the first place. You are incapable
of
> >understanding the differences between ANG and active component
operations,
> >aren't you?
> >
> >
> >And he had only
> >> 300 flying hours in the F-102 when he volunteered for overseas duty
after
> >he had
> >> been told that they wouldn't consider anybody with less than 500 hours.
> >
> >Nope, he first asked about Palace Alert, and was *then* told they were
then
> >using the 500 hour limit; you have it all basackwards, as usual.
> >
> > It was
> >> a pretty safe thing to do.....asking for something you knew in advance
> >they
> >> weren't going to give you.
> >
> >Wrong again. You have been told this before, so I guess your continued
use
> >of this tack is just your usual dishonest nature coming through
> >again...Palace Alert did not maintain a set-in-concrete 500 hour
experience
> >requirement. The required experience level fluctuated based upon the pool
of
> >volunteers they then had--which is why later, as the program wound down,
a
> >mere junior LT found himself flying Palace Alert duty out of Iceland and
> >participating in one of the USAF's last F-102 intercepts of a Soviet
> >aircraft.
> >
> >>
> >> That's just for the record, of course.
> >
> >Then your records are all screwed up.
> >
> >Brooks
> >
> >>
> >> George Z.
> >>
> >>
>
>
> We are talking about military flying.

No, you are engaging in your usual political bashing attempt.

A subject in which you have no experience
> whatever and therefore no right to comment.

Translation of the above: "I can't address your specific comments, so I'll
try to bluster my way out of the crap pile I again find myself in."

What a sad little demented creature you have turned into in your old age--or
were you always such an idiot?

Brooks

>
>
>
>
> Arthur Kramer

[ArtKramr]

>Subject: Re: Why did Bush join the national guard?
>From: J Haggerty
>Date: 9/5/2004 6:55 PM Pacific Standard Time
>Message-id: <dsP_c.5279$OZ6.1847@okepread06>

>Why did you join the Army Air Corps instead of the infantry, Navy, Coast
>Guard, or Marines?

Good question that deserves a serious answer. I was in my senior year at
Abraham Lincoln High School in New York. We were visited by recruiting officers
from the Air Corps,, The Navy and the Marines. They made extensive
presentations about just what it would be like to join their services. They had
combat veterans back from action address us and tell us how much we were needed
and what it would be like to serve with them. I was taken by two presentations;
the Army AIr Corps and the Navy V5 program which was naval aviation. I opted
for the Air Corps. I had to take a lot of tests; written oral and physical Upon
passing all of them I was informed that I was accepted as an AIr Corps Cadet
candidate and would be called up after my high school graduation. I was
interested in the Naval aviation program almost as much as the AAC presntaion
but since I could only shoose one I took the Army Air corps. As the term came
to an end I anxiously awaited my graduation and my call up into the Air Cadet
program. But I had one overiding fear. I was afraid the war would end before I
got there. It didn't. But I never for one moment considered joining the
reserve. I really wanted ot go to war, not avoid it.But i was very young.But
the rest of the guys in my HS class flet just as I did. And of all of us that
chose the Army AIr Corps from that class, I was the only surivor.




Arthur Kramer
344th BG 494th BS
England, France, Belgium, Holland, Germany
Visit my WW II B-26 website at:
http://www.coastcomp.com/artkramer

[Kevin Brooks]

"B2431" > wrote in message
...
> >From: "Steven P. McNicoll"
> >Date: 9/5/2004 2:49 PM Central Daylight Time
> >Message-id: et>
> >
> >
> >"B2431" > wrote in message
> ...
> >>
> >>>From: (ArtKramr)
> >>>Date: 9/5/2004 11:59 AM Central Daylight Time
> >>>Message-id: >
> >>>
> >>>Why did Bush join the National Guard instrae do the Army, Navy or
> >>>Air Force?
> >>>why?
> >>>
> >>
> >> He DID go into the Air Force. The ANG is a component of the USAF.
> >>
> >
> >Yes, but Art asked about the National Guard.
>
> Which is a component of the Army which Bush never clauims to have joined.

Not exactly. "The National Guard" would most accurately describe the federal
umbrella organization, represented at its highest by the National Guard
Bureau (NGB). Which as an entity is not slotted under either the Army or Air
Force, but is instead a joint bureau that reports to *both* of those service
component headquarters. The chief of NGB (currently an ARNG three star, but
it usually rotates from service to service) has deputies who oversee each of
the two components, ARNG and ANG.

Brooks

>
> Dan, U.S. Air Force, retired

[ArtKramr]

>Subject: Re: Why did Bush join the national guard?
>From: "Kevin Brooks"
>Date: 9/5/2004 7:29 PM Pacific Standard Time
>Message-id: >
>
>
>"ArtKramr" > wrote in message
...
>> >Subject: Re: Why did Bush join the national guard?
>> >From: "Kevin Brooks"
>> >Date: 9/5/2004 1:09 PM Pacific Standard Time
>> >Message-id: >
>> >
>> >
>> >"George Z. Bush" > wrote in message
>> ...
>> >> Jack G wrote:
>> >> > OK Art, tell that to a combat Marine - face to face. If all that
>> >happens is
>> >> > he asks you where you fought - and then laughs in your face when you
>> >tell
>> >> > him you will be a very lucky man.
>> >> > Jack G.
>> >>
>> >> Just for the record, Jack, during WWII, the 8th Air Force sustained
>more
>> >> casualties over Europe than the entire United States Marine Corps did
>> >world-wide
>> >> throughout the entire war. If you don't believe me, just ask Google
>the
>> >right
>> >> questions and they'll provide the same answer that I just did....I know
>> >because
>> >> I've already done it.
>> >
>> >You must have done it wrong. "Half of the U.S. Army Air Forces'
>casualties
>> >in World War II were suffered by Eighth Air Force (more than 47,000
>> >casualties with more than 26,000 dead)."
>> >(www.globalsecurity.org/military/agency/usaf/8af.htm )
>> >
>> >USMC casualties for the war totalled some ninety thousand, out of some
>669K
>> >who served in the USMC. Last I heard 90K was more than 47K. True, more
>8th
>> >AF personnel *died* in combat than Marines, but that is not what you
>said.
>> >
>> >Your use of "casualty" is normally inclusive of wounded, deaths due to
>other
>> >than combat causes, and MIA.
>> >
>> >Brooks
>> >
>> >>
>> >> George Z.
>> >>
>> >>
>>
>>
>> And exactly what is your combat experience wannabee? Marines? Air Corps? A
>desk
>> in the states? Anything at all?
>
>I was born in 1962. A bit late for WWII, OK? Now, that said, the numbers
>speak for themselves--or are you going to say the old War Department
>statistics are all wrong? And for the last time--NOBODY wants to be you, OK?
>Who wants to become a sad, whining, bitter little twit with a serious
>self-esteem problem like the sorry excuse for a man that you have become?
>
>Brooks
>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Arthur Kramer


So you admit to your sniveling military cowardice. I thought so

Arthur Kramer
344th BG 494th BS
England, France, Belgium, Holland, Germany
Visit my WW II B-26 website at:
http://www.coastcomp.com/artkramer

[ArtKramr]

>Subject: Re: Why did Bush join the national guard?
>From: (Peter Stickney)
>Date: 9/5/2004 6:38 PM Pacific Standard Time
>Message-id: >
>
>In article >,
> (ArtKramr) writes:
>>>Subject: Re: Why did Bush join the national guard?
>>>From: "Steven P. McNicoll"
>>>Date: 9/5/2004 2:47 PM Pacific Standard Time
>>>Message-id: t>
>>>
>>>
>>>"Thomas J. Paladino Jr." > wrote in message
...
>>>>
>>>> And as far as I know, nobody was flying B26's during the Vietnam era.
>>>>
>>>
>>>Well, not Martin B-26s.
>>
>>
>> And the highest rate of killing its crews.One a day in Tampa Bay. The
>> widowmaker, The B-dash-Crash.The flying Prostitute, The Flying Coffin.
>Got it
>> now wannabee?
>
>Art, The Army Air Force Statistical Digest disagrees with you. While
>the Martin B-26 had the highest accident rate of any _Medium_ Bomber
>(Medium being the B-25, B-26, and the Lockheed B-34), it never
>approached the accident rate of the A-20, which had roughly twice teh
>number lost per 100,000 Flight Hours, and all of the various
>Fighter/Pursuit types.
>
>Those aren't subjective impressions - they're hard facts, backed up by
>the cold, unfeeling numbers.
>

But the frigging A-20 was yanked out of service while we flew B-26 in combat
to the bitter end. And of course you never had to fly the B-26 so what the
hell did you care?




Arthur Kramer
344th BG 494th BS
England, France, Belgium, Holland, Germany
Visit my WW II B-26 website at:
http://www.coastcomp.com/artkramer

[BUFDRVR]

ArtKramr wrote:

>Wanna live? Join anything but the Air Forces.. Or fly
>B-52's over Iraq.

LOL...old man, you can bait me all you want, discredit my service to your
hearts content, I'll proudly stand in with the long line of men you've already
slandered. All you know about B-52s and Iraq was that we didn't lose any.


BUFDRVR

"Stay on the bomb run boys, I'm gonna get those bomb doors open if it harelips
everyone on Bear Creek"

[BUFDRVR]

ArtKramr wrote:

>Get back to me after you have fought in a real war.

Which by your definition would be impossible. The only Kramer recognized "real
war" was the ETO between 1943-1945. Since my parents were both born in 1944, by
birth I was assured of not fighting in a Kramer recognized "real war".

You are sad, sad old man....

>The
>Army AIr Corps had the highest percentage

Wrong.


BUFDRVR

"Stay on the bomb run boys, I'm gonna get those bomb doors open if it harelips
everyone on Bear Creek"

[BUFDRVR]

ArtKramr wrote:

>It makes my opinion far more valid than anyone who never flew a mission
>including you.

You forgot the caveat of "real war" which includes only B-26s in the ETO
between 1943 and 1945.


BUFDRVR

"Stay on the bomb run boys, I'm gonna get those bomb doors open if it harelips
everyone on Bear Creek"

[ArtKramr]

>Subject: Re: Why did Bush join the national guard?
>From: (BUFDRVR)
>Date: 9/5/2004 8:02 PM Pacific Standard Time
>Message-id: >
>
>ArtKramr wrote:
>
>>Get back to me after you have fought in a real war.
>
>Which by your definition would be impossible. The only Kramer recognized
>"real
>war" was the ETO between 1943-1945. Since my parents were both born in 1944,
>by
>birth I was assured of not fighting in a Kramer recognized "real war".
>

Too bad. We really missed you. How did we ever win without BUSDRVER?.


Arthur Kramer
344th BG 494th BS
England, France, Belgium, Holland, Germany
Visit my WW II B-26 website at:
http://www.coastcomp.com/artkramer

[BUFDRVR]

ArtKramr wrote:

>instead of attacking everyone

I've yet to hear back from Guiness, but that may be the worlds most
hipocritical statement ever recorded.....


BUFDRVR

"Stay on the bomb run boys, I'm gonna get those bomb doors open if it harelips
everyone on Bear Creek"

[Kevin Brooks]

"Chris" > wrote in message
2.12...
> (ArtKramr) wrote in
> :
>
> >>Subject: Re: Why did Bush join the national guard?
> >>From: "Kevin Brooks"
> >>Date: 9/5/2004 7:29 PM Pacific Standard Time
> >>Message-id: >
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>I was born in 1962. A bit late for WWII, OK? Now, that said, the
> >>numbers speak for themselves--or are you going to say the old War
> >>Department statistics are all wrong? And for the last time--NOBODY
> >>wants to be you, OK? Who wants to become a sad, whining, bitter little
> >>twit with a serious self-esteem problem like the sorry excuse for a
> >>man that you have become?
> >>
> >>Brooks
> >>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> Arthur Kramer
> >
> >
> > So you admit to your sniveling military cowardice. I thought so
> >
>
> ??
>
> Branding people who were born after WW2 as displaying 'snivelling
> military cowardice' for not participating is just plain bizzare. Or did I
> read that wrong?

No, Art is indeed bizarre. He regularly labels any veteran who did not do
*exactly* what he (supposedly) did during WWII as being cowardly, etc. You
gotta consider the source; a sad little old man trying to pump up his own
flagging self-esteem in any way he can, even if it in the end just makes him
look even more pitiful.

Brooks

[BUFDRVR]

Pete wrote:

>6 million of the 9 million people on active duty during the Vietnam era
>never saw SEA. Will you belittle their service as well?

Uhh...have you not been reading his crap since about 1999? He belittles the
service of everyone (except John Kerry) who didn't fly B-26s in the ETO between
1943 and 1945.

The best part of his rants is where he curses people for slandering Kerry's
service, than he slanders the service of others. Its really gotten pathetic.


BUFDRVR

"Stay on the bomb run boys, I'm gonna get those bomb doors open if it harelips
everyone on Bear Creek"

[Kevin Brooks]

"ArtKramr" > wrote in message
...
> >Subject: Re: Why did Bush join the national guard?
> >From: J Haggerty
> >Date: 9/5/2004 6:55 PM Pacific Standard Time
> >Message-id: <dsP_c.5279$OZ6.1847@okepread06>
>
> >Why did you join the Army Air Corps instead of the infantry, Navy, Coast
> >Guard, or Marines?

Keep in mind the following as you peruse the following fresh load of
steaming horse manure--Art apparently left out something this time, as IIRC
he previously informed us (not too long ago, too) that he joined the USAAF
one step ahead of his dreaded draft notice arriving at his door. Kind of
puts things into better perspective, doncha think?

Also, most old vets I have talked to who expressed that same desire you see
Art expressing below, about not wanting the war to end before they got into
it, usually accompany such words with something along the line of, "That
shows how young and stupid I was", having grown to appreciate the additional
pain and suffering that each extended day of warfare translated into--Art
however still ruminates and brags about how glad he was, which makes one
wonder how much touch with reality he really has these days.

Brooks

>
> Good question that deserves a serious answer. I was in my senior year at
> Abraham Lincoln High School in New York. We were visited by recruiting
officers
> from the Air Corps,, The Navy and the Marines. They made extensive
> presentations about just what it would be like to join their services.
They had
> combat veterans back from action address us and tell us how much we were
needed
> and what it would be like to serve with them. I was taken by two
presentations;
> the Army AIr Corps and the Navy V5 program which was naval aviation. I
opted
> for the Air Corps. I had to take a lot of tests; written oral and physical
Upon
> passing all of them I was informed that I was accepted as an AIr Corps
Cadet
> candidate and would be called up after my high school graduation. I was
> interested in the Naval aviation program almost as much as the AAC
presntaion
> but since I could only shoose one I took the Army Air corps. As the term
came
> to an end I anxiously awaited my graduation and my call up into the Air
Cadet
> program. But I had one overiding fear. I was afraid the war would end
before I
> got there. It didn't. But I never for one moment considered joining the
> reserve. I really wanted ot go to war, not avoid it.But i was very
young.But
> the rest of the guys in my HS class flet just as I did. And of all of us
that
> chose the Army AIr Corps from that class, I was the only surivor.
>
>
>
>
> Arthur Kramer
> 344th BG 494th BS
> England, France, Belgium, Holland, Germany
> Visit my WW II B-26 website at:
> http://www.coastcomp.com/artkramer
>

[BUFDRVR]

ArtKramr wrote:

>But I never for one moment considered joining the
>reserve. I really wanted ot go to war, not avoid it.

Go get 'em Brooks...or are you tired of correcting him on this issue?


BUFDRVR

"Stay on the bomb run boys, I'm gonna get those bomb doors open if it harelips
everyone on Bear Creek"

[Steven P. McNicoll]

"Jack G" > wrote in message
news:u%O_c.1355$Q44.198@trnddc09...
>
> How the Hell would you know Art - you obviously don't have any direct
> experience with history books...
>

Nor does he have any direct experience with knowledge.

[Kevin Brooks]

"BUFDRVR" > wrote in message
...
> ArtKramr wrote:
>
> >But I never for one moment considered joining the
> >reserve. I really wanted ot go to war, not avoid it.
>
> Go get 'em Brooks...or are you tired of correcting him on this issue?

What is the point anymore? It is now painfully obvious to anyone with half a
brain that Art is a pathological liar, especially when it comes to his
defaming the reputation of entire reserve components that had in fact been
in federal service for almost three *years* before he was even eligable to
enlist, or making false statements such as joining the reserves was an
option he then had, when in fact there was NO reserve organization left by
that time. I notice that even Art's usual band of posterior-embracing idiots
have grown rather silent of late--I think he has finally managed to drive
off even those few folks now. I am guessing he is not far from one of his,
"I won't take this any longer, I am leaving RAM for good!" snits, to which
most will obviously reply, "Don't let the door hit you in the ass on the way
out..."

Brooks

>
>
> BUFDRVR
>
> "Stay on the bomb run boys, I'm gonna get those bomb doors open if it
harelips
> everyone on Bear Creek"

[ArtKramr]

>Subject: Re: Why did Bush join the national guard?
>From: "Kevin Brooks"

>uessing he is not far from one of his,
>"I won't take this any longer, I am leaving RAM for good!" snits, to which
>most will obviously reply, "Don't let the door hit you in the ass on the way
>out..."

I'm not going anywhere. I am here to stay to remind all of your military
cowardice.


Arthur Kramer
344th BG 494th BS
England, France, Belgium, Holland, Germany
Visit my WW II B-26 website at:
http://www.coastcomp.com/artkramer

[Kevin Brooks]

"ArtKramr" > wrote in message
...
> >Subject: Re: Why did Bush join the national guard?
> >From: "Kevin Brooks"
>
> >uessing he is not far from one of his,
> >"I won't take this any longer, I am leaving RAM for good!" snits, to
which
> >most will obviously reply, "Don't let the door hit you in the ass on the
way
> >out..."
>
> I'm not going anywhere. I am here to stay to remind all of your military
> cowardice.

You are lying again--can you even tell when you are doing that these days?

Brooks

>
>
> Arthur Kramer

[Ian MacLure]

(ArtKramr) wrote in
:

[snip]

> And where did you fight?

Maybe no one was foolish enough to attack the Us on his watch.
Weren't attacked on mine either.

IBM

__________________________________________________ _____________________________
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<><><><><><><> The Worlds Uncensored News Source <><><><><><><><>

[Ian MacLure]

"Bob Coe" > wrote in news:%_J_c.18374$ni.12041@okepread01:

> "ArtKramr" > wrote
>>
>> He pulled strings to avoid combat. He is not much of a man.
>
> Why join the military if you want to avoid combat? Your juvenile
> logic makes no sense to adults.

Art has entered his second childhood.
Hence the icoherent babbling and drool all over the place.

IBM


__________________________________________________ _____________________________
Posted Via Uncensored-News.Com - Accounts Starting At $6.95 - http://www.uncensored-news.com
<><><><><><><> The Worlds Uncensored News Source <><><><><><><><>

[Ian MacLure]

(B2431) wrote in
:

[snip]

> Art, what on earth does that have to do with anything? Just because
> you went along for a ride on combat missions and dropped a few bombs
> doesn't make your opinions any more valid than anyone else's
> especially since you think your combat is the most important
> historical event since Adam and Eve.

Once upon a time we had "Tailgunner Joe" now we have "Bomb Aimer Art".
Neither apparently equipped with a sense of shame.

IBM

__________________________________________________ _____________________________
Posted Via Uncensored-News.Com - Accounts Starting At $6.95 - http://www.uncensored-news.com
<><><><><><><> The Worlds Uncensored News Source <><><><><><><><>

[Bob Coe]

"Thomas J. Paladino Jr." > wrote
> "Bob Coe" > wrote
>> "ArtKramr" > wrote
>> >
>> > Everything about Bush is a non issue right? How about everything about
> Kerry?
>> > Also a non issue? You can't have it both ways.
>>
>> As far as their service to the country 35 years ago, yes, it's a
> non-issue,
>> you are correct.
>
> It is of course a non issue. Or at least it should be. Unfortunately, Kerry
> chose to make his three months in Vietnam the foundation of his campaign, so
> here we are discussing things that have basically no bearing on todays
> world. I am far more interested in what Kerry did in the senate for the last
> 20 years, but I have yet to hear him mention that in any kind of detail even
> once. Kinda makes one think he has something to hide, no?

He still has time to get serious, but the race is around the first curve.

[Bob Coe]

"Thomas J. Paladino Jr." > wrote
> "Bob Coe" > wrote
>> "ArtKramr" > wrote
>> >
>> > Neocon logic.
>>
>> What's a neocon?
>
> Has he ever answered that?

Nope, and his time is up -- Bzzzt!

[Pete]

"ArtKramr" > wrote

>
> Good question that deserves a serious answer. I was in my senior year at
> Abraham Lincoln High School in New York. We were visited by recruiting
officers
> from the Air Corps,, The Navy and the Marines. They made extensive
> presentations about just what it would be like to join their services.
They had
> combat veterans back from action address us and tell us how much we were
needed
> and what it would be like to serve with them. I was taken by two
presentations;
> the Army AIr Corps and the Navy V5 program which was naval aviation. I
opted
> for the Air Corps. I had to take a lot of tests; written oral and physical
Upon
> passing all of them I was informed that I was accepted as an AIr Corps
Cadet
> candidate and would be called up after my high school graduation. I was
> interested in the Naval aviation program almost as much as the AAC
presntaion
> but since I could only shoose one I took the Army Air corps. As the term
came
> to an end I anxiously awaited my graduation and my call up into the Air
Cadet
> program. But I had one overiding fear. I was afraid the war would end
before I
> got there. It didn't. But I never for one moment considered joining the
> reserve. I really wanted ot go to war, not avoid it.But i was very
young.But
> the rest of the guys in my HS class flet just as I did. And of all of us
that
> chose the Army AIr Corps from that class, I was the only surivor.

Here's a question, Art.

If joining the Reserve was your best (maybe only) shot at an aircrew slot,
would you have done it?
Or would your desire to "go to war" overrided that, and you would have
instead have volunteered for the infantry?

Pete

[Leslie Swartz]

Art:

You do realize, don't you, that several combat vets in this newsgroup are
refusing to answer your "where did you fight" bull**** question (because to
you, only riding around for a couple of months in a B-26 and only in the ETO
and only during WWII counts as "combat" [sic]) . . . mainly because you are
such a sick, twisted-up-with rage, has-been @sshole.

And the other combat vets in this group- much better men than you- refuse to
sink to your childish level.

Steve Swartz

"ArtKramr" > wrote in message
...
> >Subject: Re: Why did Bush join the national guard?
> >From: "Bob Coe"
> >Date: 9/5/2004 12:53 PM Pacific Standard Time
> >Message-id: <69K_c.18382$ni.13946@okepread01>
> >
> >"ArtKramr" > wrote
> >>
> >> That answers my question.
> >
> >A fart would answer your question.
>
>
> That's what I said. You answered my question.
>
>
> Arthur Kramer
> 344th BG 494th BS
> England, France, Belgium, Holland, Germany
> Visit my WW II B-26 website at:
> http://www.coastcomp.com/artkramer
>

[ArtKramr]

>Subject: Re: Why did Bush join the national guard?
>From: "Pete"
>Date: 9/5/2004 11:05 PM Pacific Standard Time
>Message-id: >
>
>
>"ArtKramr" > wrote
>
>>
>> Good question that deserves a serious answer. I was in my senior year at
>> Abraham Lincoln High School in New York. We were visited by recruiting
>officers
>> from the Air Corps,, The Navy and the Marines. They made extensive
>> presentations about just what it would be like to join their services.
>They had
>> combat veterans back from action address us and tell us how much we were
>needed
>> and what it would be like to serve with them. I was taken by two
>presentations;
>> the Army AIr Corps and the Navy V5 program which was naval aviation. I
>opted
>> for the Air Corps. I had to take a lot of tests; written oral and physical
>Upon
>> passing all of them I was informed that I was accepted as an AIr Corps
>Cadet
>> candidate and would be called up after my high school graduation. I was
>> interested in the Naval aviation program almost as much as the AAC
>presntaion
>> but since I could only shoose one I took the Army Air corps. As the term
>came
>> to an end I anxiously awaited my graduation and my call up into the Air
>Cadet
>> program. But I had one overiding fear. I was afraid the war would end
>before I
>> got there. It didn't. But I never for one moment considered joining the
>> reserve. I really wanted ot go to war, not avoid it.But i was very
>young.But
>> the rest of the guys in my HS class flet just as I did. And of all of us
>that
>> chose the Army AIr Corps from that class, I was the only surivor.
>
>Here's a question, Art.
>
>If joining the Reserve was your best (maybe only) shot at an aircrew slot,
>would you have done it?
>Or would your desire to "go to war" overrided that, and you would have
>instead have volunteered for the infantry?
>
>Pete


The "reserve" means held back. Back then it was a disgrace to join the reserve.
Kids were leaving school and coming back in Marine, Army and Navy uniforms and
we all wanted to go. I wanted to also but after the represent of the ArmyAir
Corps addressed us my mind was made up. I wwanted to fly. And there was a song
popular at that time. It went " Zoot suits and parachutes and wings of silver
too. He'll buzz the clouds as his daddy used to do" I was hooked by the Air
Corp I was afraid I couldn't pass the exams but I was good at math and physics
and passed easily. The physical was no problem since I was on the track and
football teams and in good shape. Next thing I knew I was 10,000 feet over the
Rhine in heavy flak fields doing what I was trained to do. And I'm still here
to tell about it.





Arthur Kramer
344th BG 494th BS
England, France, Belgium, Holland, Germany
Visit my WW II B-26 website at:
http://www.coastcomp.com/artkramer

[Bob Coe]

"ArtKramr" > wrote
>
> The "reserve" means held back. Back then it was a disgrace to join the reserve.

Back then people were eating out of garbage cans to survive you moron.

[ArtKramr]

>Subject: Re: Why did Bush join the national guard?
>From: "Bob Coe"
>Date: 9/6/2004 8:28 AM Pacific Standard Time
>Message-id: <hm%_c.18818$ni.14424@okepread01>
>
>"ArtKramr" > wrote
>>
>> The "reserve" means held back. Back then it was a disgrace to join the
>reserve.
>
>Back then people were eating out of garbage cans to survive you moron.


Noi asshole. The war was on. War production was in full swing and employment
100%. No one was eating out of garbage cans then. Is their no limit to your
ignorance and stupidity?. Were you in the military? Tell us abouut it,



Arthur Kramer
344th BG 494th BS
England, France, Belgium, Holland, Germany
Visit my WW II B-26 website at:
http://www.coastcomp.com/artkramer

[Bob Coe]

"ArtKramr" > wrote
>>
>>Back then people were eating out of garbage cans to survive you moron.
>
> Noi asshole. The war was on. War production was in full swing and employment
> 100%.

"The federal government first became involved in fighting hunger in 1939,
when it began a food stamp program, which was curtailed in 1943 because
of food shortages linked with World War II. By the 1960s, one-fifth of the
U.S. population lived in poverty and was at risk of hunger."
-- Health & Human Services Report

There has *never* been 100% employment in the United States, moron.

[ArtKramr]

>Subject: Re: Why did Bush join the national guard?
>From: "Bob Coe"
>Date: 9/6/2004 8:52 AM Pacific Standard Time
>Message-id: <sJ%_c.18832$ni.18600@okepread01>
>
>"ArtKramr" > wrote
>>>
>>>Back then people were eating out of garbage cans to survive you moron.
>>
>> Noi asshole. The war was on. War production was in full swing and
>employment
>> 100%.
>
>"The federal government first became involved in fighting hunger in 1939,
>when it began a food stamp program, which was curtailed in 1943 because
>of food shortages linked with World War II. By the 1960s, one-fifth of the
>U.S. population lived in poverty and was at risk of hunger."
>-- Health & Human Services Report
>
>There has *never* been 100% employment in the United States, moron.


I lived through that period and no one was eating out of garbage cans you
stupid little *******.


Arthur Kramer
344th BG 494th BS
England, France, Belgium, Holland, Germany
Visit my WW II B-26 website at:
http://www.coastcomp.com/artkramer

[Bob Coe]

"ArtKramr" > wrote
>>
>>There has *never* been 100% employment in the United States, moron.
>
> I lived through that period and no one was eating out of garbage cans you
> stupid little *******.

Moron, you want to know why they hired women in the shipyards and the
airplane factories? So the Black and Indian males couldn't get hired.

I'm not black, Indian, or Japanese, but a lot of **** went down that you seem
to have closed your eyes to.

[Peter Stickney]

In article >,
(ArtKramr) writes:
>>Subject: Re: Why did Bush join the national guard?
>>From: (Peter Stickney)
>>Date: 9/5/2004 6:38 PM Pacific Standard Time
>>Message-id: >
>>
>>In article >,
>> (ArtKramr) writes:
>>>>Subject: Re: Why did Bush join the national guard?
>>>>From: "Steven P. McNicoll"
>>>>Date: 9/5/2004 2:47 PM Pacific Standard Time
>>>>Message-id: t>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>"Thomas J. Paladino Jr." > wrote in message
...
>>>>>
>>>>> And as far as I know, nobody was flying B26's during the Vietnam era.
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>Well, not Martin B-26s.
>>>
>>>
>>> And the highest rate of killing its crews.One a day in Tampa Bay. The
>>> widowmaker, The B-dash-Crash.The flying Prostitute, The Flying Coffin.
>>Got it
>>> now wannabee?
>>
>>Art, The Army Air Force Statistical Digest disagrees with you. While
>>the Martin B-26 had the highest accident rate of any _Medium_ Bomber
>>(Medium being the B-25, B-26, and the Lockheed B-34), it never
>>approached the accident rate of the A-20, which had roughly twice teh
>>number lost per 100,000 Flight Hours, and all of the various
>>Fighter/Pursuit types.
>>
>>Those aren't subjective impressions - they're hard facts, backed up by
>>the cold, unfeeling numbers.
>>
>
> But the frigging A-20 was yanked out of service while we flew B-26 in combat
> to the bitter end. And of course you never had to fly the B-26 so what the
> hell did you care?

The "frigging A-20" was in service throughout the war (From the very
beginning, actually, The same airplane, as the DB-7, was in service
with the French Armee de l'Air in 1940, and flew against the Germans)

They served until 1945, wherever teh AAF was - North Africa, the Med,
the ETO, and in the Pacific. They were replaced in mid-45, about the
same timeframe as the replacement of the Martin B-26, by the same
airplane - the Douglas A-26. It's worth noting that both the A-20 and
the Martin B-26 were dropped like hot potatoes after the war ended.

And no, I never flew a B-26. But I do care about facts.

Art, I consider your writings on your wartime experience, and your
photos to be valuable insights into what went on in a B-26 in the
ETO. And I don't gainsay your experience in that area at all.
Your subjective views on that subject, when placed in the context of
objective fact, add to my understanding of that period in time.

The political ranting, however, has been, at the least, over the top.
You're placing yourself into the "Immune to reason" category.
I'm not about to change your mind, nor am i willing to try.
But your unreasoned, ill-favored lashing out at anybody and everybody
who disagrees with you, in the most infantile and ridiculous ways
possible, do neither your favored candidate or yourself any good.


--
Pete Stickney
A strong conviction that something must be done is the parent of many
bad measures. -- Daniel Webster

[Pete]

"ArtKramr" > wrote
>
> The "reserve" means held back.

Not at the time. The Guard & Reserve troops were fully assimilated into the
war effort.

> Back then it was a disgrace to join the reserve.

Times have changes since WWII.

> Kids were leaving school and coming back in Marine, Army and Navy
uniforms and
> we all wanted to go. I wanted to also but after the represent of the
ArmyAir
> Corps addressed us my mind was made up. I wwanted to fly. And there was a
song
> popular at that time. It went " Zoot suits and parachutes and wings of
silver
> too. He'll buzz the clouds as his daddy used to do" I was hooked by the
Air
> Corp I was afraid I couldn't pass the exams but I was good at math and
physics
> and passed easily. The physical was no problem since I was on the track
and
> football teams and in good shape. Next thing I knew I was 10,000 feet over
the
> Rhine in heavy flak fields doing what I was trained to do. And I'm still
here
> to tell about it.

A non-answer to my question. But that is to be expected.

Pete

[ArtKramr]

>Subject: Re: Why did Bush join the national guard?
>From: "Pete"
>Date: 9/6/2004 11:47 AM Pacific Standard Time
>Message-id: >
>
>
>"ArtKramr" > wrote
>>
>> The "reserve" means held back.
>
>Not at the time. The Guard & Reserve troops were fully assimilated into the
>war effort.
>
>> Back then it was a disgrace to join the reserve.
>
>Times have changes since WWII.
>
>> Kids were leaving school and coming back in Marine, Army and Navy
>uniforms and
>> we all wanted to go. I wanted to also but after the represent of the
>ArmyAir
>> Corps addressed us my mind was made up. I wwanted to fly. And there was a
>song
>> popular at that time. It went " Zoot suits and parachutes and wings of
>silver
>> too. He'll buzz the clouds as his daddy used to do" I was hooked by the
>Air
>> Corp I was afraid I couldn't pass the exams but I was good at math and
>physics
>> and passed easily. The physical was no problem since I was on the track
>and
>> football teams and in good shape. Next thing I knew I was 10,000 feet over
>the
>> Rhine in heavy flak fields doing what I was trained to do. And I'm still
>here
>> to tell about it.
>
>A non-answer to my question. But that is to be expected.
>
>Pete

Screw you.



Arthur Kramer
344th BG 494th BS
England, France, Belgium, Holland, Germany
Visit my WW II B-26 website at:
http://www.coastcomp.com/artkramer

[ArtKramr]

>ubject: Re: Why did Bush join the national guard?
>From: "Bob Coe"
>Date: 9/6/2004 10:49 AM Pacific Standard Time
>Message-id: <2r1%c.18966$ni.10@okepread01>
>
>"ArtKramr" > wrote
>>>
>>>There has *never* been 100% employment in the United States, moron.
>>
>> I lived through that period and no one was eating out of garbage cans you
>> stupid little *******.
>
>Moron, you want to know why they hired women in the shipyards and the
>airplane factories? So the Black and Indian males couldn't get hired.
>
>I'm not black, Indian, or Japanese, but a lot of **** went down that you seem
>to have closed your eyes to.


No one was eating out of garbage cans asshole !!!!


Arthur Kramer
344th BG 494th BS
England, France, Belgium, Holland, Germany
Visit my WW II B-26 website at:
http://www.coastcomp.com/artkramer

[ArtKramr]

>Subject: Re: Why did Bush join the national guard?
>From: (Peter Stickney)
>Date: 9/6/2004 11:40 AM Pacific Standard Time
>Message-id: >
>
>In article >,
> (ArtKramr) writes:
>>>Subject: Re: Why did Bush join the national guard?
>>>From: (Peter Stickney)
>>>Date: 9/5/2004 6:38 PM Pacific Standard Time
>>>Message-id: >
>>>
>>>In article >,
>>> (ArtKramr) writes:
>>>>>Subject: Re: Why did Bush join the national guard?
>>>>>From: "Steven P. McNicoll"
>>>>>Date: 9/5/2004 2:47 PM Pacific Standard Time
>>>>>Message-id: t>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>"Thomas J. Paladino Jr." > wrote in message
...
>>>>>>
>>>>>> And as far as I know, nobody was flying B26's during the Vietnam era.
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>Well, not Martin B-26s.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> And the highest rate of killing its crews.One a day in Tampa Bay. The
>>>> widowmaker, The B-dash-Crash.The flying Prostitute, The Flying Coffin.
>>>Got it
>>>> now wannabee?
>>>
>>>Art, The Army Air Force Statistical Digest disagrees with you. While
>>>the Martin B-26 had the highest accident rate of any _Medium_ Bomber
>>>(Medium being the B-25, B-26, and the Lockheed B-34), it never
>>>approached the accident rate of the A-20, which had roughly twice teh
>>>number lost per 100,000 Flight Hours, and all of the various
>>>Fighter/Pursuit types.
>>>
>>>Those aren't subjective impressions - they're hard facts, backed up by
>>>the cold, unfeeling numbers.
>>>
>>
>> But the frigging A-20 was yanked out of service while we flew B-26 in
>combat
>> to the bitter end. And of course you never had to fly the B-26 so what the
>> hell did you care?
>
>The "frigging A-20" was in service throughout the war (From the very
>beginning, actually, The same airplane, as the DB-7, was in service
>with the French Armee de l'Air in 1940, and flew against the Germans)
>
>They served until 1945, wherever teh AAF was - North Africa, the Med,
>the ETO, a

They yanked almost all the A-20's out of the ETO and sent them down to the MTO,
a less demanding theatre of operations. I don't think I ever saw an A-20 over
Germany.


Arthur Kramer
344th BG 494th BS
England, France, Belgium, Holland, Germany
Visit my WW II B-26 website at:
http://www.coastcomp.com/artkramer

[Raoul]

> >
> >A non-answer to my question. But that is to be expected.
> >
> >Pete
>
> Screw you.

Oh, I wish, Artie Baby!

I could do with being laid right about now!

raoul

[Bob Coe]

"ArtKramr" > wrote
>
> No one was eating out of garbage cans asshole !!!!

Why do you think they started food stamps in 1939 moron?

How come there were no black crew members in your outfit?

[Greg Hennessy]

On Mon, 6 Sep 2004 14:40:45 -0400, (Peter Stickney)
wrote:


>The political ranting, however, has been, at the least, over the top.

The bloke is taking the complete **** of late.

Getting rather sick of binning flamefests initiated by him.


greg
--
Felicitations, malefactors! I am endeavoring to misappropriate
the formulary for the preparation of affordable comestibles.
Who will join me?!

[Kevin Brooks]

"ArtKramr" > wrote in message
...
> >Subject: Re: Why did Bush join the national guard?

<snip>
>
>
> The "reserve" means held back. Back then it was a disgrace to join the
reserve.

Bullpoopie again, Art. There was NO reserve component left "back then"--they
had all been federalized into active service long before you enlisted, and
the Guard forces were not reconstituted as reserve elements until after the
war was over.

<snip>

And I'm still here
> to tell about it.

Being as you can't get the basic facts right, most folks could care less
what you have to "tell"--you have already told too many lies.

Brooks

>
>
>
>
>
> Arthur Kramer

[Steven P. McNicoll]

"ArtKramr" > wrote in message
...
>
> But the frigging A-20 was yanked out of service while we flew B-26
> in combat to the bitter end.
>

The Douglas A-20 was in USAAF service throughout the war. The 3rd BG was
the last unit to operate the A-20, it was preparing to move to Okinawa when
the Japanese surrendered.

[Steven P. McNicoll]

"ArtKramr" > wrote in message
...
>>>
>>> But the frigging A-20 was yanked out of service while we flew B-26 in
>>combat
>>> to the bitter end. And of course you never had to fly the B-26 so what
>>> the
>>> hell did you care?
>>
>>The "frigging A-20" was in service throughout the war (From the very
>>beginning, actually, The same airplane, as the DB-7, was in service
>>with the French Armee de l'Air in 1940, and flew against the Germans)
>>
>>They served until 1945, wherever teh AAF was - North Africa, the Med,
>>the ETO, a
>
> They yanked almost all the A-20's out of the ETO and sent them down
> to the MTO, a less demanding theatre of operations.
>

Which means your previous statement was wrong.

[ArtKramr]

>Subject: Re: Why did Bush join the national guard?
>From: "Kevin Brooks"
>Date: 9/6/2004 12:50 PM Pacific Standard Time
>Message-id: >
>
>
>"ArtKramr" > wrote in message
...
>> >Subject: Re: Why did Bush join the national guard?
>
><snip>
>>
>>
>> The "reserve" means held back. Back then it was a disgrace to join the
>reserve.
>
>Bullpoopie again, Art. There was NO reserve component left "back then"--they
>had all been federalized into active service long before you enlisted, and
>the Guard forces were not reconstituted as reserve elements until after the
>war was over.
>
><snip>
>
> And I'm still here
>> to tell about it.
>
>Being as you can't get the basic facts right, most folks could care less
>what you have to "tell"--you have already told too many lies.
>
>Brooks
>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Arthur Kramer


But you read every post I write in detail don't you? when are you gong to tell
us about your combat experiences lying wannabee with nothing to tell. You are
disgusting.


Arthur Kramer
344th BG 494th BS
England, France, Belgium, Holland, Germany
Visit my WW II B-26 website at:
http://www.coastcomp.com/artkramer

[ArtKramr]

>Subject: Re: Why did Bush join the national guard?
>From: "Steven P. McNicoll"
>Date: 9/6/2004 12:50 PM Pacific Standard Time
>Message-id: et>
>
>
>"ArtKramr" > wrote in message
...
>>
>> But the frigging A-20 was yanked out of service while we flew B-26
>> in combat to the bitter end.
>>
>
>The Douglas A-20 was in USAAF service throughout the war. The 3rd BG was
>the last unit to operate the A-20, it was preparing to move to Okinawa when
>the Japanese surrendered.


Good that piece of crap never got there or the Japs would have won the war.


Arthur Kramer
344th BG 494th BS
England, France, Belgium, Holland, Germany
Visit my WW II B-26 website at:
http://www.coastcomp.com/artkramer

[ArtKramr]

>Subject: Re: Why did Bush join the national guard?
>From: "Bob Coe"
>Date: 9/6/2004 12:47 PM Pacific Standard Time
>Message-id: <A93%c.19177$ni.18621@okepread01>
>
>"ArtKramr" > wrote
>>
>> No one was eating out of garbage cans asshole !!!!
>
>Why do you think they started food stamps in 1939 moron?
>
>How come there were no black crew members in your outfit?


Factories were working overitome. The economy was booming.Wages were at their
highest. No one was eating out of garbage cans unless you read the Commie
papers.


Arthur Kramer
344th BG 494th BS
England, France, Belgium, Holland, Germany
Visit my WW II B-26 website at:
http://www.coastcomp.com/artkramer

[Bob Coe]

"ArtKramr" > wrote
>>
>>How come there were no black crew members in your outfit?
>
> Factories were working overitome. The economy was booming.Wages were at their
> highest.

2% unemployment for whites, 12% for blacks. Just think, if you would have
let one black guy on your crew you would have gotten closer to the mythical
100% you talk about.

[Pete]

"ArtKramr" > wrote
>
> Screw you.

Jesus, Bubba. Is that all you got?

Ask a simple question, and I get "Screw you"

I guess we know what the answer would have been...:)

Pete

[Kevin Brooks]

"ArtKramr" > wrote in message
...
> >Subject: Re: Why did Bush join the national guard?
> >From: "Kevin Brooks"
> >Date: 9/6/2004 12:50 PM Pacific Standard Time
> >Message-id: >
> >
> >
> >"ArtKramr" > wrote in message
> ...
> >> >Subject: Re: Why did Bush join the national guard?
> >
> ><snip>
> >>
> >>
> >> The "reserve" means held back. Back then it was a disgrace to join the
> >reserve.
> >
> >Bullpoopie again, Art. There was NO reserve component left "back
then"--they
> >had all been federalized into active service long before you enlisted,
and
> >the Guard forces were not reconstituted as reserve elements until after
the
> >war was over.
> >
> ><snip>
> >
> > And I'm still here
> >> to tell about it.
> >
> >Being as you can't get the basic facts right, most folks could care less
> >what you have to "tell"--you have already told too many lies.
> >
> >Brooks
> >
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> Arthur Kramer
>
>
> But you read every post I write in detail don't you?

To point out your lies--yes.

when are you gong to tell
> us about your combat experiences lying wannabee

Nobody wants to be you, or like you. Deal with it.

with nothing to tell. You are
> disgusting.

You lied--again. You could not have joined the reserves in 1943. They had
been federalized and mobilized almost three years earlier. Historical fact
versus your delusional lies. Again, deal with it.

Brooks

>
>
> Arthur Kramer

[ArtKramr]

>Subject: Re: Why did Bush join the national guard?
>From: "Kevin Brooks"
>Date: 9/6/2004 2:02 PM Pacifi

>-again. You could not have joined the reserves in 1943. They had
>been federalized and mobilized almost three years earlier. Historical fact

In 1943 I joined the Army Air Corps and went to war. When did you go to war you
cowardly piece of lying crap? Never. Right?.




Arthur Kramer
344th BG 494th BS
England, France, Belgium, Holland, Germany
Visit my WW II B-26 website at:
http://www.coastcomp.com/artkramer

[Raoul]

In article >, ArtKramr
> wrote:

> >Subject: Re: Why did Bush join the national guard?
> >From: "Kevin Brooks"
> >Date: 9/6/2004 2:02 PM Pacifi
>
> >-again. You could not have joined the reserves in 1943. They had
> >been federalized and mobilized almost three years earlier. Historical fact
>
> In 1943 I joined the Army Air Corps and went to war. When did you go to war
> you
> cowardly piece of lying crap? Never. Right?.

Drink a little prune juice, will ya, Artie?

You seem to be all stopped up!

raoul

[ArtKramr]

>Subject: Re: Why did Bush join the national guard?
>From: Raoul
>Date: 9/6/2004 4:04 PM Pacific Standard Time
>Message-id: >
>
>In article >, ArtKramr
> wrote:
>
>> >Subject: Re: Why did Bush join the national guard?
>> >From: "Kevin Brooks"
>> >Date: 9/6/2004 2:02 PM Pacifi
>>
>> >-again. You could not have joined the reserves in 1943. They had
>> >been federalized and mobilized almost three years earlier. Historical fact
>>
>> In 1943 I joined the Army Air Corps and went to war. When did you go to war
>> you
>> cowardly piece of lying crap? Never. Right?.
>
>Drink a little prune juice, will ya, Artie?
>
>You seem to be all stopped up!
>
>raoul
>


No. I just am fed up with those who were never in combat who tell those who
were what it was "really" like.


Arthur Kramer
344th BG 494th BS
England, France, Belgium, Holland, Germany
Visit my WW II B-26 website at:
http://www.coastcomp.com/artkramer

[ArtKramr]

>Subject: Re: Why did Bush join the national guard?
>From: Ian MacLure
>Date: 9/6/2004 4:42 PM Pacific Standard Time
>Message-id: >
>
(ArtKramr) wrote in
:
>
>>>Subject: Re: Why did Bush join the national guard?
>>>From: "Kevin Brooks"
>>>Date: 9/6/2004 2:02 PM Pacifi
>>
>>>-again. You could not have joined the reserves in 1943. They had
>>>been federalized and mobilized almost three years earlier. Historical
>>>fact
>>
>> In 1943 I joined the Army Air Corps and went to war. When did you go
>> to war you cowardly piece of lying crap? Never. Right?.
>
> My cousin joined up in 1941.
>
> I'll bet he saw more combat than you did and he flew C-54s.
>

So now you are taking credit for your cousins military action while you did
nothin? What a fraud eouy are. And he flew C-54's in WW II? How did he do
that? What was his unit?. What theatre. If he flew C-54's in WW II he didn't
****.You are just another dumb wannewabbee telling combat veterans what it was
really like.


Arthur Kramer
344th BG 494th BS
England, France, Belgium, Holland, Germany
Visit my WW II B-26 website at:
http://www.coastcomp.com/artkramer

[Steven P. McNicoll]

"ArtKramr" > wrote in message
...
>
> So now you are taking credit for your cousins military action while you
> did
> nothin? What a fraud eouy are.
>

What's an "eouy"?


>
> And he flew C-54's in WW II? How did he do that?
>

Are you asking how airplanes fly?


>
> What was his unit?. What theatre. If he flew C-54's in WW II he didn't
> ****.
>

Another asinine statement.


>
> You are just another dumb wannewabbee telling combat veterans what
> it was really like.
>

How did you manage to avoid learning anything about military aviation while
you were in the USAAF?

[Bob Coe]

"ArtKramr" > wrote
>
> In 1943 I joined the Army Air Corps and went to war. When did you go to war you
> cowardly piece of lying crap? Never. Right?.

Maybe he was black, and your racist crew wouldn't let him fight?

[Kevin Brooks]

"ArtKramr" > wrote in message
...
> >Subject: Re: Why did Bush join the national guard?
> >From: "Kevin Brooks"
> >Date: 9/6/2004 2:02 PM Pacifi
>
> >-again. You could not have joined the reserves in 1943. They had
> >been federalized and mobilized almost three years earlier. Historical
fact
>
> In 1943 I joined the Army Air Corps and went to war. When did you go to
war you
> cowardly piece of lying crap? Never. Right?.

Who gives a frick? Argue with the FACT presented above--you lied.

Brooks

>
>
>
>
> Arthur Kramer

[Ian MacLure]

(ArtKramr) wrote in
:

>>Subject: Re: Why did Bush join the national guard?
>>From: Ian MacLure
>>Date: 9/6/2004 4:42 PM Pacific Standard Time
>>Message-id: >
>>
(ArtKramr) wrote in
:
>>
>>>>Subject: Re: Why did Bush join the national guard?
>>>>From: "Kevin Brooks"
>>>>Date: 9/6/2004 2:02 PM Pacifi
>>>
>>>>-again. You could not have joined the reserves in 1943. They had
>>>>been federalized and mobilized almost three years earlier.
>>>>Historical fact
>>>
>>> In 1943 I joined the Army Air Corps and went to war. When did you go
>>> to war you cowardly piece of lying crap? Never. Right?.
>>
>> My cousin joined up in 1941.
>>
>> I'll bet he saw more combat than you did and he flew C-54s.
>>
>
> So now you are taking credit for your cousins military action while

No, I'm merely pointing out that there were others involved.
I make no claims about my service heroic or otherwise.
In the context of WWII that would be kind of difficult as I'm
a little young for that conflict.

> you did nothin? What a fraud you are.

Nope, I'm real. I don't claim to be a hero.
My cousin doesn't either, won't talk about it unless
pressed. Unlike some folks I could mention.

> And he flew C-54's in WW II?

Yes
Military version of DC-4.
( http://www.warbirdalley.com/c54.htm )
What word did you not understand.

> How did he do that?

???
Well, as I understand it, he joined the US Army, went to flight
school, was assigned ( along with his brother ) to fly transports
and wound up going to a C-54 unit.
Again let me know what concepts are giving you trouble.

> What was his unit?.

That I don't know. He was in 1942-1947.
I do know it was his crew that flew Gen Wainwright back to
the USA after Japan surrendered and the POWs were freed.
There is at least one picture of him on the front page
of an SF paper post war. Him you wouldn't recognise,
a number of those in the crowd you would.

> What theatre.

Pacific. All over, some places he'd even been pre-war.
Shot up by Japanese fighters twice. Lost his copilot the
first time. Only wounded the second. On a third occasion
had some 20 feet of the top of the airplane peeled off by a
near miss ( mortar or artillery ) while rolling out.
Comes from operating in contested airspace or onto a
contested airfield.

> If he flew C-54's in WW II he didn't ****.

Never asked him about constipation but I believe he
is fairly regular. As far as I know aside from small
contusions etc from the aforementioned episodes he
was mostly healthy.

> You are just another dumb wannewabbee telling combat veterans
> what it was really like.

No, I don't wannabe. If I have to go in harm's way I'd
like to be able to shoot back.

IBM


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[Ian MacLure]

"Steven P. McNicoll" > wrote in
ink.net:

[snip]

> How did you manage to avoid learning anything about military aviation
> while you were in the USAAF?

He was a bombardier.
They were notorious for needing help ( cf: Yossarian )

IBM

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[Bob Coe]

"Ian MacLure" > wrote
>> Kramer the ****-up wrote:
>> And he flew C-54's in WW II?
>
> Yes
> Military version of DC-4.
> ( http://www.warbirdalley.com/c54.htm )
> What word did you not understand.
>
>> How did he do that?

Kramer you dumb ****, even Roosevelt had one for AF #1

What a brain-dead moron. What a ****-up! I believe SNAFU
was named after your racist crew!

[ArtKramr]

>He was a bombardier.
> They were notorious for needing help ( cf: Yossarian )
>
> IBM
>
>_____________________________

And you were?


Arthur Kramer
344th BG 494th BS
England, France, Belgium, Holland, Germany
Visit my WW II B-26 website at:
http://www.coastcomp.com/artkramer

[ArtKramr]

>Subject: Re: Why did Bush join the national guard?
>From: Ian MacLure
>Date: 9/6/2004 10:08 PM Pacific Standard Time
>Message-id:

> My cousin joined up in 1941.
>>>
Who cares and what ha sjtyta to do with you?

>'ll bet he saw more combat than you did and he flew C-54

That is a bet you will lose. How would you know since you saw none.



>I make no claims about my service heroic or otherwise.
> In the context of WWI

But you sure make a lot of noise for some one who wasn't even there.

>Nope, I'm real. I don't claim to be a hero.
> My cousin doesn't either, won't talk about it unless

Hiding behind oyu cousin again, Disgusting

> I do know it was his crew that flew Gen Wainwright back to
> the USA after Japan surrendered and the POWs were freed.

Flying generals round, Tough duty My heart pumps **** for him.

>Pacific. All over, some places he'd even been pre-war.
> Shot up by Japanese fighters twice. Lost his copilot the
> first time. Only wounded the second. On a third occasion

For a guy who never talks bout it he sure blabs a lot.


Arthur Kramer
344th BG 494th BS
England, France, Belgium, Holland, Germany
Visit my WW II B-26 website at:
http://www.coastcomp.com/artkramer

[ArtKramr]

>ubject: Re: Why did Bush join the national guard?
>From: "Bob Coe"
>Date: 9/6/2004 10:22 PM Pacific Standard Time
>Message-id: <ZAb%c.19247$ni.11235@okepread01>
>
>"Ian MacLure" > wrote
>>> Kramer the ****-up wrote:
>>> And he flew C-54's in WW II?
>>
>> Yes
>> Military version of DC-4.
>> ( http://www.warbirdalley.com/c54.htm )
>> What word did you not understand.
>>
>>> How did he do that?
>
>Kramer you dumb ****, even Roosevelt had one for AF #1
>
>What a brain-dead moron. What a ****-up! I believe SNAFU
>was named after your racist crew!


You are sick.


Arthur Kramer
344th BG 494th BS
England, France, Belgium, Holland, Germany
Visit my WW II B-26 website at:
http://www.coastcomp.com/artkramer

[ArtKramr]

>Subject: Re: Why did Bush join the national guard?
>From: Ian MacLure
>Date: 9/6/2004 10:10 PM Pacific Standard Time
>Message-id: >
>
>"Steven P. McNicoll" > wrote in
ink.net:
>
> [snip]
>
>> How did you manage to avoid learning anything about military aviation
>> while you were in the USAAF?
>
> He was a bombardier.
> They were notorious for needing help ( cf: Yossarian )
>
> IBM


YOU READ BOOK ON THE WAR. WOW. IMPRESSIVE>


Arthur Kramer
344th BG 494th BS
England, France, Belgium, Holland, Germany
Visit my WW II B-26 website at:
http://www.coastcomp.com/artkramer

[Jack G]

Art,

If you read a book or two it might just keep you from making such a complete
ass of your self over and over on this news group - but then what would we
do for fun?

Jack G.

>
>
> YOU READ BOOK ON THE WAR. WOW. IMPRESSIVE>
>
>
> Arthur Kramer
> 344th BG 494th BS
> England, France, Belgium, Holland, Germany
> Visit my WW II B-26 website at:
> http://www.coastcomp.com/artkramer
>

[ArtKramr]

>ubject: Re: Why did Bush join the national guard?
>From: "Jack G"
>Date: 9/7/2004 7:32 AM Pacific Standard Time
>Message-id: <TDj%c.5609$5Y6.2664@trnddc07>
>
>Art,
>
>If you read a book or two it might just keep you from making such a complete
>ass of your self over and over on this news group - but then what would we
>do for fun?
>
>Jack G.
>
>>
>>
>> YOU READ BOOK ON THE WAR. WOW. IMPRESSIVE>
>>
>>
>> Arthur Kramer
>> 344th BG 494th BS
>> England, France, Belgium, Holland, Germany
>> Visit my WW II B-26 website at:
>> http://www.coastcomp.com/artkramer
>>


Well you would regale us with the missions you flew in defense of your country
and we would all split our sides laughing.


Arthur Kramer
344th BG 494th BS
England, France, Belgium, Holland, Germany
Visit my WW II B-26 website at:
http://www.coastcomp.com/artkramer

[ian maclure]

On Tue, 07 Sep 2004 13:53:38 +0000, ArtKramr wrote:

[snip]

> YOU READ BOOK ON THE WAR. WOW. IMPRESSIVE>

More than one actually and on more than one war.
Some of which didn't involve any B26 aircraft.
And-uh I've met your kind before.
Wasn't impressed then.
Sure as hell not impressed now.

IBM

__________________________________________________ _____________________________
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[OXMORON1]

Art wrote:
>But you read every post I write in detail don't you? when are you gong to
>tell
>us about your combat experiences lying wannabee with nothing to tell. You are
>disgusting.

Since when is "Screw You", "**** You", "Wannabee", and "Sniveling Coward"
writing in detail? It is plain old name calling and not a good reflection on
your service, business expertise, command experience, etc.

Rick
MFE

[ArtKramr]

>Subject: Re: Why did Bush join the national guard?
>From: "ian maclure"
>Date: 9/7/2004 9:16 AM Pacific Standard Time
>Message-id: >
>
>On Tue, 07 Sep 2004 13:41:47 +0000, ArtKramr wrote:
>
>>>He was a bombardier.
>>> They were notorious for needing help ( cf: Yossarian )
>>>
>>> IBM
>>>
>>>_____________________________
>>
>> And you were?
>
> I am. Present tense. As in coterminous with thepresent.
>
> IBM
>
>
In other words nothing military.


Arthur Kramer
344th BG 494th BS
England, France, Belgium, Holland, Germany
Visit my WW II B-26 website at:
http://www.coastcomp.com/artkramer

[B2431]

>From: (ArtKramr)
>Date: 9/6/2004 6:14 PM Central Daylight Time

>No. I just am fed up with those who were never in combat who tell those who
>were what it was "really" like.
>
>
>Arthur Kramer

Not ONE person has told you what it was "really like." Only those of us who
were there would know that anyway. What HAS been said WRT you war is you have
made it clear that no one who wasn't in combat then knows what actually
happened. You have even gone so far as to say the military records keepers who
were there were wrong.

You have promised to stop initiating OT rants. You lied. You have been asked
questions such was for a definition of "neocon." Instead of responding you have
attacked the person asking the question. You have denigrated the service of
people who served just as honourably as you yet who hadn't seen combat. You
have said kerry would make a great prsident since he had seen combat yet you
voted for clinton who admitted dodging the draft.

You are an insecure, lying hypocrite who really needs help.

Dan, U.S. Air Force, retired

[B2431]

>From: (ArtKramr)
>Date: 9/6/2004 6:59 PM Central Daylight Time
>Message-id: >
>
>>Subject: Re: Why did Bush join the national guard?
>>From: Ian MacLure
>>Date: 9/6/2004 4:42 PM Pacific Standard Time
>>Message-id: >
>>
(ArtKramr) wrote in
:
>>
>>>>Subject: Re: Why did Bush join the national guard?
>>>>From: "Kevin Brooks"
>>>>Date: 9/6/2004 2:02 PM Pacifi
>>>
>>>>-again. You could not have joined the reserves in 1943. They had
>>>>been federalized and mobilized almost three years earlier. Historical
>>>>fact
>>>
>>> In 1943 I joined the Army Air Corps and went to war. When did you go
>>> to war you cowardly piece of lying crap? Never. Right?.
>>
>> My cousin joined up in 1941.
>>
>> I'll bet he saw more combat than you did and he flew C-54s.
>>
>
>So now you are taking credit for your cousins military action while you did
>nothin? What a fraud eouy are. And he flew C-54's in WW II? How did he do
>that? What was his unit?. What theatre. If he flew C-54's in WW II he didn't
>****.You are just another dumb wannewabbee telling combat veterans what it
>was
>really like.
>
>
>Arthur Kramer
>

Art, show where he took credit or told you how combat really was. I will watch
with great interest for your answer.

Dan, U.S. Air Force, retired

[ian maclure]

On Tue, 07 Sep 2004 17:38:23 +0000, ArtKramr wrote:

[snip]

> In other words nothing military.

Not for some 25+ years now.
But then I'm not the one harping on it, am I?
I make no claim to any military virtue beyond
being competent in the basic military skills
of an infantryman.

IBM

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[ArtKramr]

>Subject: Re: Why did Bush join the national guard?
>From: (B2431)
>Date: 9/7/2004 1:52 PM Pacific Standard Time
>Message-id:

>I'll bet he saw more combat than you did and he flew C-54s.
>>>

A C-54 is not a combat aircraft. Seeing "action" implies that you have done
harm to the enemy. You can't do harm to the enemy in an unarmed airliner.
Flying combat airccraft is one thing, Flying airliners is something else.


Arthur Kramer
344th BG 494th BS
England, France, Belgium, Holland, Germany
Visit my WW II B-26 website at:
http://www.coastcomp.com/artkramer

[Jack G]

> >I'll bet he saw more combat than you did and he flew C-54s.
> >>>
>
> A C-54 is not a combat aircraft. Seeing "action" implies that you have
done
> harm to the enemy. You can't do harm to the enemy in an unarmed airliner.
> Flying combat airccraft is one thing, Flying airliners is something else.
>
>
> Arthur Kramer
> 344th BG 494th BS
> England, France, Belgium, Holland, Germany
> Visit my WW II B-26 website at:
> http://www.coastcomp.com/artkramer

Art,

Being a bombadeer / navigator is not like piloting anything.

Admit it Art, you were a just a crew member on an airplane flown by a real
pilot.

Applying your convoluted "logic" to your self - you have no right to express
opinions on piloting anything - or on being a commissioned officer with
aircraft command authority.

And your definition of "action" is so screwd up I'm not even going to
comment...

Jack G.

[Steven P. McNicoll]

"ArtKramr" > wrote in message
...
>
> A C-54 is not a combat aircraft. Seeing "action" implies that you have
> done
> harm to the enemy. You can't do harm to the enemy in an unarmed airliner.
> Flying combat airccraft is one thing, Flying airliners is something else.
>

When it comes to doing harm to the enemy, "unarmed airliners" delivering
paratroops isn't so different from bombers delivering bombs.

[BUFDRVR]

ArtKramr wrote:

>A C-54 is not a combat aircraft. Seeing "action" implies that you have done
>harm to the enemy. You can't do harm to the enemy in an unarmed airliner.
>Flying combat airccraft is one thing, Flying airliners is something else.

Ahh, now we have a new Kramer version of combat. Now, to qualify, you must have
delivered explosive ordnance. C-47s flying over "the Hump" and intercepted by
Japanese Zeros...not "real combat". C-130s landing in Khe Sahn during
artilliary and mortor fire...not combat. UH-60s inserting SF forces behind
Iraqi lines before the beginning of Iraqi Freedom...not combat. Hell, Ed
Rasimus in an F-4E on MiGCAP over Hanoi...not combat. The list gets shorter and
shorter....


BUFDRVR

"Stay on the bomb run boys, I'm gonna get those bomb doors open if it harelips
everyone on Bear Creek"

[ArtKramr]

>Subject: Re: Why did Bush join the national guard?
>From: "Jack G"
>Date: 9/7/2004 7:54 PM Pacific

>Art,
>
>Being a bombadeer / navigator is not like piloting anything.
>
>Admit it Art, you were a just a crew member on an airplane flown by a real
>pilot.

Do you know why they have pilots on bombers? Just for one reason which was to
put a bombardier over a target for 30 seconds. Do you know why they have
gunners on a bomber? Just one reason. To protect that bombardier and get him
over the target for 30 seconds. Do you know why they have fighter cover? Just
to get a bombardier over a target for 30 seconds. The pilot is only a bus
driver to deliver him where he can hurt the enemy. So don't make too big a
deal of pilots . Some are good and some are not..If you get one who can fly a
good bomb run, not dump your gyro and keep the wings level so you don't dump
bombs all over the landscape, you are lucky.But good bomb run pilots are not
all that easy to find. And as far as judging pilots performance on a bomb run,
no one is more qualified to make that judgement than a bombardier. But this is
a subject you would know nothing about.






Arthur Kramer
344th BG 494th BS
England, France, Belgium, Holland, Germany
Visit my WW II B-26 website at:
http://www.coastcomp.com/artkramer

[ArtKramr]

>Subject: Re: Why did Bush join the national guard?
>From: (BUFDRVR)
>Date: 9/7/2004 8:18 PM Pacific Standard Time
>Message-id: >
>
>ArtKramr wrote:
>
>>A C-54 is not a combat aircraft. Seeing "action" implies that you have done
>>harm to the enemy. You can't do harm to the enemy in an unarmed airliner.
>>Flying combat airccraft is one thing, Flying airliners is something else.
>
>Ahh, now we have a new Kramer version of combat. Now, to qualify, you must
>have
>delivered explosive ordnance. C-47s flying over "the Hump" and intercepted by
>Japanese Zeros...not "real combat". C-130s landing in Khe Sahn during
>artilliary and mortor fire...not combat. UH-60s inserting SF forces behind
>Iraqi lines before the beginning of Iraqi Freedom...not combat. Hell, Ed
>Rasimus in an F-4E on MiGCAP over Hanoi...not combat. The list gets shorter
>and
>shorter....
>
>
>BUFDRVR
>


Don't try to mix Ed with the wannabbes on this NG. Ed fought the good fight.
But why are you still on that eternal bomb run that never ends? You have been
on that bomb run for years and never reached the target.


Arthur Kramer
344th BG 494th BS
England, France, Belgium, Holland, Germany
Visit my WW II B-26 website at:
http://www.coastcomp.com/artkramer

[Bob Coe]

"ArtKramr" > wrote
>
> Do you know why they have pilots on bombers? Just for one reason which was to
> put a bombardier over a target for 30 seconds. Do you know why they have
> gunners on a bomber? Just one reason. To protect that bombardier and get him
> over the target for 30 seconds. Do you know why they have fighter cover? Just
> to get a bombardier over a target for 30 seconds. The pilot is only a bus
> driver to deliver him where he can hurt the enemy. So don't make too big a
> deal of pilots . Some are good and some are not..If you get one who can fly a
> good bomb run, not dump your gyro and keep the wings level so you don't dump
> bombs all over the landscape, you are lucky.But good bomb run pilots are not
> all that easy to find. And as far as judging pilots performance on a bomb run,
> no one is more qualified to make that judgement than a bombardier. But this is
> a subject you would know nothing about.

This pretty much proves that Kramer is dead, and his nephew or ******* child has
taken over his name. A real veteran doesn't think like that, and I've known some
serious misfits, but never to this level.

[Jack G]

> Do you know why they have pilots on bombers? Just for one reason which
was to
> put a bombardier over a target for 30 seconds. Do you know why they have
> gunners on a bomber? Just one reason. To protect that bombardier and get
him
> over the target for 30 seconds. Do you know why they have fighter cover?
Just
> to get a bombardier over a target for 30 seconds. The pilot is only a bus
> driver to deliver him where he can hurt the enemy. > Arthur Kramer
> 344th BG 494th BS
> England, France, Belgium, Holland, Germany
> Visit my WW II B-26 website at:
>

The incredibly small world of Mr. Kramer just got a lot smaller. Kind of
sad watching him self-destruct...

Jack G.

[ArtKramr]

>Subject: Re: Why did Bush join the national guard?
>From: Ian MacLure
>Date: 9/7/2004 9:36 PM Pacific Standard Time
>Message-id: >
>
(ArtKramr) wrote in
:
>
>>>Subject: Re: Why did Bush join the national guard?
>>>From: (B2431)
>>>Date: 9/7/2004 1:52 PM Pacific Standard Time
>>>Message-id:
>>
>>>I'll bet he saw more combat than you did and he flew C-54s.
>>>>>
>>
>> A C-54 is not a combat aircraft. Seeing "action" implies that you have
>> done harm to the enemy. You can't do harm to the enemy in an unarmed
>
> So being fired on multiple times doesn't count.
> Taxiing in wearing substantial portions of your
> deceased copilot and good friend doesn't count.
> Having a second copilot killed during landing doesn't count.
> Flying onto disputed airfields doesn't count?
> Losing 20 ft of fuselage to an artillery round and flying whats
> left of the airplane to Guam doesn't count?
> So I guess whatever it was he was delivering under fire could not
> have been that important.
> Well, I'm glad you cleared that up.
>
> I have a friend who was a C-47 driver on D-Day, dropped paras.
> I guess what he did doesn't count.
>
> A gentleman I sat next to in our town band went ashore with the
> first wave on D-Day but he was only a doctor so I guess he doesn't
> count.
>
>> airliner. Flying combat airccraft is one thing, Flying airliners is
>> something else.
>
> Does the word tactical transport mean anything to you?
> Do you know what day it is even?
>
> IBM
>


There is the tip of the spear. Then there is everything else. The very best are
at the tip of the spear. Where were you?


Arthur Kramer
344th BG 494th BS
England, France, Belgium, Holland, Germany
Visit my WW II B-26 website at:
http://www.coastcomp.com/artkramer

[B2431]

>From: (ArtKramr)
>Date: 9/7/2004 8:38 PM Central Daylight Time
>Message-id: >
>
>>Subject: Re: Why did Bush join the national guard?
>>From: (B2431)
>>Date: 9/7/2004 1:52 PM Pacific Standard Time
>>Message-id:
>
>>I'll bet he saw more combat than you did and he flew C-54s.
>>>>
>
>A C-54 is not a combat aircraft. Seeing "action" implies that you have done
>harm to the enemy. You can't do harm to the enemy in an unarmed airliner.
>Flying combat airccraft is one thing, Flying airliners is something else.
>
>
>Arthur Kramer

So if a cargo aircraft is shot down it wasn't lost in action?

Dan, U. S. Air Force, retired

[Jack G]

Art,

You were 10,000 feet above the tip of the spear - and then for only 30
seconds. The rest of the time you were a passenger on a bus being taken
care of by the rest of the crew. I know because you explained it to me in
your response to my early post...

Jack G.


> There is the tip of the spear. Then there is everything else. The very
best are
> at the tip of the spear. Where were you?
>
>
> Arthur Kramer
> 344th BG 494th BS
> England, France, Belgium, Holland, Germany
> Visit my WW II B-26 website at:
> http://www.coastcomp.com/artkramer
>

[Bob Coe]

"ArtKramr" > wrote
>
> There is the tip of the spear. Then there is everything else. The very best are
> at the tip of the spear. Where were you?

During my later years of service, I was in the bunker telling the tips
where I wanted them, and they said "Yes Sir, three bags full!"

I didn't really care if they were the best, because they were all I had, and
we'd make adjustments anyway. Qualified and able, that was my standard.

Baa, baa, black sheep
Have you any wool?
Yes sir, yes sir, three bags full!
One for my master,
One for my dame,
And one for the little boy
Who lives down the lane.

[B2431]

>From: (ArtKramr)

>
>There is the tip of the spear. Then there is everything else. The very best
>are
>at the tip of the spear. Where were you?
>
>
>Arthur Kramer
>

Art, bombardiers were common and, while needed, were easily replaced. Don't
flatter yourself. In reality you did all you could towards the war effort but
the war would have been won if you weren't even there. You were a minor cog in
a big wheel amongst among a great many wheels. If you were incapacitated somone
else on your plane would have gone forward and done your job.

The war involved ground and naval forces doing their jobs that were just as
important as yours. Think about it. If the convoys hadn't crossed the Atlantic
you wouldn't have been able to do your job. If the ground forces hadn't taken
territory you wouldn't have been able to do your job. It took a combination of
land, sea and air to win that damned war and it would have been wone even if
you weren't there.

Are you really that insecure you have to try to convince us you were the best
of the best? It sounds more like you are trying to convince yourself. You may
have been good bombardier, but so far the only one saying so is you.

Dan, U.S. Air Force, retired

[John Keeney]

"B2431" > wrote in message
...
> >From: (ArtKramr)
> >Date: 9/6/2004 6:59 PM Central Daylight Time
> >Message-id: >
> >
> >>Subject: Re: Why did Bush join the national guard?
> >>From: Ian MacLure
> >>Date: 9/6/2004 4:42 PM Pacific Standard Time
> >>Message-id: >
> >>
> (ArtKramr) wrote in
> :
> >>
> >>>>Subject: Re: Why did Bush join the national guard?
> >>>>From: "Kevin Brooks"
> >>>>Date: 9/6/2004 2:02 PM Pacifi
> >>>
> >>>>-again. You could not have joined the reserves in 1943. They had
> >>>>been federalized and mobilized almost three years earlier. Historical
> >>>>fact
> >>>
> >>> In 1943 I joined the Army Air Corps and went to war. When did you go
> >>> to war you cowardly piece of lying crap? Never. Right?.
> >>
> >> My cousin joined up in 1941.
> >>
> >> I'll bet he saw more combat than you did and he flew C-54s.
> >>
> >
> >So now you are taking credit for your cousins military action while you
did
> >nothin? What a fraud eouy are. And he flew C-54's in WW II? How did he
do
> >that? What was his unit?. What theatre. If he flew C-54's in WW II he
didn't
> >****.You are just another dumb wannewabbee telling combat veterans what
it
> >was
> >really like.
> >
> >
> >Arthur Kramer
> >
>
> Art, show where he took credit or told you how combat really was. I will
watch
> with great interest for your answer.

Dan, you must be one incredibly bored person if you are
reduced to waiting for that answer "with great interest".

[B2431]

>From: "John Keeney"
>Date: 9/8/2004 1:08 AM Central Daylight Time
>Message-id: >
>
>
>"B2431" > wrote in message
...
>> >From: (ArtKramr)
>> >Date: 9/6/2004 6:59 PM Central Daylight Time
>> >Message-id: >
>> >
>> >>Subject: Re: Why did Bush join the national guard?
>> >>From: Ian MacLure
>> >>Date: 9/6/2004 4:42 PM Pacific Standard Time
>> >>Message-id: >
>> >>
>> (ArtKramr) wrote in
>> :
>> >>
>> >>>>Subject: Re: Why did Bush join the national guard?
>> >>>>From: "Kevin Brooks"
>> >>>>Date: 9/6/2004 2:02 PM Pacifi
>> >>>
>> >>>>-again. You could not have joined the reserves in 1943. They had
>> >>>>been federalized and mobilized almost three years earlier. Historical
>> >>>>fact
>> >>>
>> >>> In 1943 I joined the Army Air Corps and went to war. When did you go
>> >>> to war you cowardly piece of lying crap? Never. Right?.
>> >>
>> >> My cousin joined up in 1941.
>> >>
>> >> I'll bet he saw more combat than you did and he flew C-54s.
>> >>
>> >
>> >So now you are taking credit for your cousins military action while you
>did
>> >nothin? What a fraud eouy are. And he flew C-54's in WW II? How did he
>do
>> >that? What was his unit?. What theatre. If he flew C-54's in WW II he
>didn't
>> >****.You are just another dumb wannewabbee telling combat veterans what
>it
>> >was
>> >really like.
>> >
>> >
>> >Arthur Kramer
>> >
>>
>> Art, show where he took credit or told you how combat really was. I will
>watch
>> with great interest for your answer.
>
>Dan, you must be one incredibly bored person if you are
>reduced to waiting for that answer "with great interest".

It's a line from Fail Safe which I was watching at the time. I know he will
never answer the question.

Dan, U.S. Air Force, retired

[Mark and Kim Smith]

ArtKramr wrote:

>>Subject: Re: Why did Bush join the national guard?
>>From: "Jack G"
>>Date: 9/7/2004 7:54 PM Pacific
>>
>>
>
>
>
>>Art,
>>
>>Being a bombadeer / navigator is not like piloting anything.
>>
>>Admit it Art, you were a just a crew member on an airplane flown by a real
>>pilot.
>>
>>
>
>Do you know why they have pilots on bombers? Just for one reason which was to
>put a bombardier over a target for 30 seconds. Do you know why they have
>gunners on a bomber? Just one reason. To protect that bombardier and get him
>over the target for 30 seconds. Do you know why they have fighter cover? Just
>to get a bombardier over a target for 30 seconds. The pilot is only a bus
>driver to deliver him where he can hurt the enemy. So don't make too big a
>deal of pilots . Some are good and some are not..If you get one who can fly a
>good bomb run, not dump your gyro and keep the wings level so you don't dump
>bombs all over the landscape, you are lucky.But good bomb run pilots are not
>all that easy to find. And as far as judging pilots performance on a bomb run,
>no one is more qualified to make that judgement than a bombardier. But this is
>a subject you would know nothing about.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>Arthur Kramer
>344th BG 494th BS
> England, France, Belgium, Holland, Germany
>Visit my WW II B-26 website at:
>http://www.coastcomp.com/artkramer
>
>
Wow! Tell that to Paul Shorts face!

Get rid of all the useless people and how does the bombardier get to the
target??

[Steven P. McNicoll]

"ArtKramr" > wrote in message
...
>
> Do you know why they have pilots on bombers? Just for one reason
> which was to put a bombardier over a target for 30 seconds.
>

Every bomber required at least one pilot, but not every bomber required a
bombardier.


>
> The pilot is only a bus driver to deliver him where he can hurt the enemy.
> So don't make too big a deal of pilots . Some are good and some are
> not..If you get one who can fly a good bomb run, not dump your gyro
> and keep the wings level so you don't dump bombs all over the landscape,
> you are lucky.But good bomb run pilots are not all that easy to find. And
> as far as judging pilots performance on a bomb run, no one is more
> qualified to make that judgement than a bombardier. But this is a subject
> you would know nothing about.
>

Sounds like you're bitter over washing out of pilot training and being made
a bombardier.

[ArtKramr]

>ubject: Re: Why did Bush join the national guard?
>From: "Jack G"
>Date: 9/7/2004 9:46 PM Pacific Standard Time
>Message-id: <n8w%c.6743$Q44.2546@trnddc09>
>
>> Do you know why they have pilots on bombers? Just for one reason which
>was to
>> put a bombardier over a target for 30 seconds. Do you know why they have
>> gunners on a bomber? Just one reason. To protect that bombardier and get
>him
>> over the target for 30 seconds. Do you know why they have fighter cover?
>Just
>> to get a bombardier over a target for 30 seconds. The pilot is only a bus
>> driver to deliver him where he can hurt the enemy. > Arthur Kramer
>> 344th BG 494th BS
>> England, France, Belgium, Holland, Germany
>> Visit my WW II B-26 website at:
>>
>
>The incredibly small world of Mr. Kramer just got a lot smaller. Kind of
>sad watching him self-destruct...
>
>Jack G.
>

Jealousy is a terrible thing


Arthur Kramer
344th BG 494th BS
England, France, Belgium, Holland, Germany
Visit my WW II B-26 website at:
http://www.coastcomp.com/artkramer

[ArtKramr]

>Subject: Re: Why did Bush join the national guard?
>From: "Jack G"
>Date: 9/7/2004 10:10 PM Pacific Standard Time
>Message-id: <4vw%c.6338$BQ4.5420@trnddc06>
>
>Art,
>
>You were 10,000 feet above the tip of the spear - and then for only 30
>seconds. The rest of the time you were a passenger on a bus being taken
>care of by the rest of the crew. I know because you explained it to me in
>your response to my early post...
>
>Jack G.
>
>
>> There is the tip of the spear. Then there is everything else. The very
>best are
>> at the tip of the spear. Where were you?
>>
>>
>> Arthur Kramer
>> 344th BG 494th BS
>> England, France, Belgium, Holland, Germany
>> Visit my WW II B-26 website at:
>> http://www.coastcomp.com/artkramer
>>

Didn't notice you around anywhere.


Arthur Kramer
344th BG 494th BS
England, France, Belgium, Holland, Germany
Visit my WW II B-26 website at:
http://www.coastcomp.com/artkramer

[ArtKramr]

>Subject: Re: Why did Bush join the national guard?
>From: (B2431)
>Date: 9/7/2004 11:01 PM Pacific Standard Time
>Message-id: >
>

>There is the tip of the spear. Then there is everything else. The very best
>>are
>>at the tip of the spear. Where were you?
>>
>>
>>Arthur Kramer

>If you were incapacitated somone
>else on your plane would have gone forward and done your job.
>

Wrong. No one else on the crew was trained to operate a Norden. Guess you don't
know much huh?


Arthur Kramer
344th BG 494th BS
England, France, Belgium, Holland, Germany
Visit my WW II B-26 website at:
http://www.coastcomp.com/artkramer

[ArtKramr]

>Subject: Re: Why did Bush join the national guard?
>From: Ian MacLure
>Date: 9/7/2004 9:58 PM Pacific Standard Time
>Message-id: >
>
>"Steven P. McNicoll" > wrote in
link.net:
>
>> "ArtKramr" > wrote in message
>> ...
>>>
>>> A C-54 is not a combat aircraft. Seeing "action" implies that you
>>> have done
>>> harm to the enemy. You can't do harm to the enemy in an unarmed
>>> airliner. Flying combat airccraft is one thing, Flying airliners is
>>> something else.
>>>
>>
>> When it comes to doing harm to the enemy, "unarmed airliners"
>> delivering paratroops isn't so different from bombers delivering
>> bombs.
>
> As it happens, paratrooping is one thing my cousin did not do.
> They did trust him with high value stuff including 3 and 4 star
> officers and the CinC Pacific from time to time though.
>
> IBM
>

Tough service, War is hell.


Arthur Kramer
344th BG 494th BS
England, France, Belgium, Holland, Germany
Visit my WW II B-26 website at:
http://www.coastcomp.com/artkramer

[ArtKramr]

>Subject: Re: Why did Bush join the national guard?
>From: Mark and Kim Smith
>Date: 9/8/2004 1:14 AM Pacific Standard Time
>Message-id: >
>
>ArtKramr wrote:
>
>>>Subject: Re: Why did Bush join the national guard?
>>>From: "Jack G"
>>>Date: 9/7/2004 7:54 PM Pacific
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>>
>>>Art,
>>>
>>>Being a bombadeer / navigator is not like piloting anything.
>>>
>>>Admit it Art, you were a just a crew member on an airplane flown by a real
>>>pilot.
>>>
>>>
>>
>>Do you know why they have pilots on bombers? Just for one reason which was
>to
>>put a bombardier over a target for 30 seconds. Do you know why they have
>>gunners on a bomber? Just one reason. To protect that bombardier and get him
>>over the target for 30 seconds. Do you know why they have fighter cover?
>Just
>>to get a bombardier over a target for 30 seconds. The pilot is only a bus
>>driver to deliver him where he can hurt the enemy. So don't make too big a
>>deal of pilots . Some are good and some are not..If you get one who can fly
>a
>>good bomb run, not dump your gyro and keep the wings level so you don't
>dump
>>bombs all over the landscape, you are lucky.But good bomb run pilots are not
>>all that easy to find. And as far as judging pilots performance on a bomb
>run,
>>no one is more qualified to make that judgement than a bombardier. But this
>is
>>a subject you would know nothing about.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>Arthur Kramer
>>344th BG 494th BS
>> England, France, Belgium, Holland, Germany
>>Visit my WW II B-26 website at:
>>http://www.coastcomp.com/artkramer
>>
>>
>Wow! Tell that to Paul Shorts face!

I have many times. And every pilot in the 344th knew that his prime job was to
put the bombardier over the target,. It is only the wannabbes on this NG that
can't figure that out.


Arthur Kramer
344th BG 494th BS
England, France, Belgium, Holland, Germany
Visit my WW II B-26 website at:
http://www.coastcomp.com/artkramer

[ArtKramr]

>Subject: Re: Why did Bush join the national guard?
>From: "Steven P. McNicoll"
>Date: 9/8/2004 4:59 AM Pacific Standard Time
>Message-id: . net>
>
>
>"ArtKramr" > wrote in message
...
>>
>> Do you know why they have pilots on bombers? Just for one reason
>> which was to put a bombardier over a target for 30 seconds.
>>
>
>Every bomber required at least one pilot, but not every bomber required a
>bombardier.
>
>
>>
>> The pilot is only a bus driver to deliver him where he can hurt the enemy.
>> So don't make too big a deal of pilots . Some are good and some are
>> not..If you get one who can fly a good bomb run, not dump your gyro
>> and keep the wings level so you don't dump bombs all over the landscape,
>> you are lucky.But good bomb run pilots are not all that easy to find. And
>> as far as judging pilots performance on a bomb run, no one is more
>> qualified to make that judgement than a bombardier. But this is a subject
>> you would know nothing about.
>>
>
>Sounds like you're bitter over washing out of pilot training and being made
>a bombardier.


Never was in pilot traning.Sounds like you are bitter for not fighting for your
country. But you cant blame me for that. You have only yourself to blame.



Arthur Kramer
344th BG 494th BS
England, France, Belgium, Holland, Germany
Visit my WW II B-26 website at:
http://www.coastcomp.com/artkramer

[Steven P. McNicoll]

"Mark and Kim Smith" > wrote in message
...
>
> Get rid of all the useless people and how does the bombardier get to the
> target??
>

That's been done. Today we deliver more bombs than the Marauder could carry
from single-seat aircraft. The sole remaining crew member is called
"pilot".

[Kevin Brooks]

"ArtKramr" > wrote in message
...
> >Subject: Re: Why did Bush join the national guard?
> >From: (BUFDRVR)
> >Date: 9/7/2004 8:18 PM Pacific Standard Time
> >Message-id: >
> >
> >ArtKramr wrote:
> >
> >>A C-54 is not a combat aircraft. Seeing "action" implies that you have
done
> >>harm to the enemy. You can't do harm to the enemy in an unarmed
airliner.
> >>Flying combat airccraft is one thing, Flying airliners is something
else.
> >
> >Ahh, now we have a new Kramer version of combat. Now, to qualify, you
must
> >have
> >delivered explosive ordnance. C-47s flying over "the Hump" and
intercepted by
> >Japanese Zeros...not "real combat". C-130s landing in Khe Sahn during
> >artilliary and mortor fire...not combat. UH-60s inserting SF forces
behind
> >Iraqi lines before the beginning of Iraqi Freedom...not combat. Hell, Ed
> >Rasimus in an F-4E on MiGCAP over Hanoi...not combat. The list gets
shorter
> >and
> >shorter....
> >
> >
> >BUFDRVR
> >
>
>
> Don't try to mix Ed with the wannabbes on this NG. Ed fought the good
fight.
> But why are you still on that eternal bomb run that never ends? You have
been
> on that bomb run for years and never reached the target.

No, Bufdrvr has hit a few targets, and no doubt he demonstrated better
accuracy than you could ever have acheived (despite your whining
protestations that you *never* missed a target...yeah, right...). And you
curiously missed responding to his other examples of what you have termed
"non-combat" flying...I guess my brother was not in combat when he got shot
down during a Dustoff mission in Vietnam? So you are again lying...which
seems to be about all you are capable of doing anymore. Sad.

Brooks

>
>
> Arthur Kramer

[Kevin Brooks]

"ArtKramr" > wrote in message
...
> >Subject: Re: Why did Bush join the national guard?
> >From: Ian MacLure
> >Date: 9/7/2004 9:36 PM Pacific Standard Time
> >Message-id: >
> >
> (ArtKramr) wrote in
> :
> >
> >>>Subject: Re: Why did Bush join the national guard?
> >>>From: (B2431)
> >>>Date: 9/7/2004 1:52 PM Pacific Standard Time
> >>>Message-id:
> >>
> >>>I'll bet he saw more combat than you did and he flew C-54s.
> >>>>>
> >>
> >> A C-54 is not a combat aircraft. Seeing "action" implies that you have
> >> done harm to the enemy. You can't do harm to the enemy in an unarmed
> >
> > So being fired on multiple times doesn't count.
> > Taxiing in wearing substantial portions of your
> > deceased copilot and good friend doesn't count.
> > Having a second copilot killed during landing doesn't count.
> > Flying onto disputed airfields doesn't count?
> > Losing 20 ft of fuselage to an artillery round and flying whats
> > left of the airplane to Guam doesn't count?
> > So I guess whatever it was he was delivering under fire could not
> > have been that important.
> > Well, I'm glad you cleared that up.
> >
> > I have a friend who was a C-47 driver on D-Day, dropped paras.
> > I guess what he did doesn't count.
> >
> > A gentleman I sat next to in our town band went ashore with the
> > first wave on D-Day but he was only a doctor so I guess he doesn't
> > count.
> >
> >> airliner. Flying combat airccraft is one thing, Flying airliners is
> >> something else.
> >
> > Does the word tactical transport mean anything to you?
> > Do you know what day it is even?
> >
> > IBM
> >
>
>
> There is the tip of the spear. Then there is everything else. The very
best are
> at the tip of the spear. Where were you?

Then you must not have been at the "tip of the spear", being as you have
repeatedly proven to be anything but "the very best" (how can a pilot
washout call himself the "very best"?).

Brooks

>
>
> Arthur Kramer

[Steven P. McNicoll]

"ArtKramr" > wrote in message
...
>
> Never was in pilot traning.
>

I didn't say you were. I said it sounds like you're bitter over washing out
of pilot training and being made a bombardier.

Not everyone was qualified to be a pilot.

[George Z. Bush]

"Mark and Kim Smith" > wrote in message
...

> Wow! Tell that to Paul Shorts face!
>
> Get rid of all the useless people and how does the bombardier get to the
> target??

He skis in on his tongue?? (^-^)))

George Z.

[B2431]

>From: (ArtKramr)
>Date: 9/8/2004 7:08 AM Central Daylight Time
>Message-id: >
>
>>Subject: Re: Why did Bush join the national guard?
>>From: (B2431)
>>Date: 9/7/2004 11:01 PM Pacific Standard Time
>>Message-id: >
>>
>
>>There is the tip of the spear. Then there is everything else. The very best
>>>are
>>>at the tip of the spear. Where were you?
>>>
>>>
>>>Arthur Kramer
>
>>If you were incapacitated somone
>>else on your plane would have gone forward and done your job.
>>
>
>Wrong. No one else on the crew was trained to operate a Norden. Guess you
>don't
>know much huh?
>
>
>Arthur Kramer

It doesn't take much training to pickle when everyone else does. If you were
lead bombardier, according to many of your past posts you weren't very often,
and you were incapacitated another B-26 would take lead.

No I wasn't there, but you yourself have said that would be the case.

Dan, U.S. Air Force, retired

[B2431]

>From: Mark and Kim Smith
>Date: 9/8/2004 3:14 AM Central Daylight Time
>Message-id: >
>
>ArtKramr wrote:
>
>>>Subject: Re: Why did Bush join the national guard?
>>>From: "Jack G"
>>>Date: 9/7/2004 7:54 PM Pacific
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>>
>>>Art,
>>>
>>>Being a bombadeer / navigator is not like piloting anything.
>>>
>>>Admit it Art, you were a just a crew member on an airplane flown by a real
>>>pilot.
>>>
>>>
>>
>>Do you know why they have pilots on bombers? Just for one reason which was
>to
>>put a bombardier over a target for 30 seconds. Do you know why they have
>>gunners on a bomber? Just one reason. To protect that bombardier and get him
>>over the target for 30 seconds. Do you know why they have fighter cover?
>Just
>>to get a bombardier over a target for 30 seconds. The pilot is only a bus
>>driver to deliver him where he can hurt the enemy. So don't make too big a
>>deal of pilots . Some are good and some are not..If you get one who can fly
>a
>>good bomb run, not dump your gyro and keep the wings level so you don't
>dump
>>bombs all over the landscape, you are lucky.But good bomb run pilots are not
>>all that easy to find. And as far as judging pilots performance on a bomb
>run,
>>no one is more qualified to make that judgement than a bombardier. But this
>is
>>a subject you would know nothing about.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>Arthur Kramer
>>344th BG 494th BS
>> England, France, Belgium, Holland, Germany
>>Visit my WW II B-26 website at:
>>http://www.coastcomp.com/artkramer
>>
>>
>Wow! Tell that to Paul Shorts face!
>
>Get rid of all the useless people and how does the bombardier get to the
>target??
>

Haven't you heard? There was no one else in the entire ETO. Art won that air
war all by himself.

Dan, U.S. Air Force, retired

[Fred the Red Shirt]

(ArtKramr) wrote in message >
....
> Why did Bush join the National Guard instrae do the Army, Navy or Air Force?
> why?
>

No mystery:

RUSSERT: Were you favor of the war in Vietnam?

BUSH: I supported my government. I did. And would have gone
had my unit been called up, by the way.

RUSSERT: But you didn't volunteer or enlist to go.

BUSH: No, I didn't. You're right.

Meet The Press
February 8th, 2004



"I was not prepared to shoot my eardrum out
with a shotgun in order to get a deferment.
Nor was I willing to go to Canada. So I
chose to better myself by learning how to fly
airplanes."

George W. Bush, 1990
as quoted in The Houston Chronicle
May 8th, 1994.

--

FF

[ArtKramr]

>Subject: Re: Why did Bush join the national guard?
>From: "Steven P. McNicoll"
>Date: 9/8/2004 5:30 AM Pacific Standard Time
>Message-id: . net>
>
>
>"ArtKramr" > wrote in message
...
>>
>> Never was in pilot traning.
>>
>
>I didn't say you were. I said it sounds like you're bitter over washing out
>of pilot training and being made a bombardier.
>
>Not everyone was qualified to be a pilot.


I'd say you are a living example of someone not qualified to be anything
military.



Arthur Kramer
344th BG 494th BS
England, France, Belgium, Holland, Germany
Visit my WW II B-26 website at:
http://www.coastcomp.com/artkramer

[ArtKramr]

>Subject: Re: Why did Bush join the national guard?
>From: (B2431)
>Date: 9/8/2004 8:15 AM Pacific Standard Time
>Message-id:

>No I wasn't there, but you yourself have said that would be the case.
>
>Dan, U.S. Air Force, retired
>

That says it all.


Arthur Kramer
344th BG 494th BS
England, France, Belgium, Holland, Germany
Visit my WW II B-26 website at:
http://www.coastcomp.com/artkramer

[ArtKramr]

>Subject: Re: Why did Bush join the national guard?
>From: "Kevin Brooks"
>Date: 9/8/2004 5:22 AM Pacific Standard Time
>Message-id: >
>
>
>"ArtKramr" > wrote in message
...
>> >Subject: Re: Why did Bush join the national guard?
>> >From: (BUFDRVR)
>> >Date: 9/7/2004 8:18 PM Pacific Standard Time
>> >Message-id: >
>> >
>> >ArtKramr wrote:
>> >
>> >>A C-54 is not a combat aircraft. Seeing "action" implies that you have
>done
>> >>harm to the enemy. You can't do harm to the enemy in an unarmed
>airliner.
>> >>Flying combat airccraft is one thing, Flying airliners is something
>else.
>> >
>> >Ahh, now we have a new Kramer version of combat. Now, to qualify, you
>must
>> >have
>> >delivered explosive ordnance. C-47s flying over "the Hump" and
>intercepted by
>> >Japanese Zeros...not "real combat". C-130s landing in Khe Sahn during
>> >artilliary and mortor fire...not combat. UH-60s inserting SF forces
>behind
>> >Iraqi lines before the beginning of Iraqi Freedom...not combat. Hell, Ed
>> >Rasimus in an F-4E on MiGCAP over Hanoi...not combat. The list gets
>shorter
>> >and
>> >shorter....
>> >
>> >
>> >BUFDRVR
>> >
>>
>>
>> Don't try to mix Ed with the wannabbes on this NG. Ed fought the good
>fight.
>> But why are you still on that eternal bomb run that never ends? You have
>been
>> on that bomb run for years and never reached the target.
>
>No, Bufdrvr has hit a few targets, and no doubt he demonstrated better
>accuracy than you could ever have acheived (despite your whining
>protestations that you *never* missed a target...yeah, right...). And you
>curiously missed responding to his other examples of what you have termed
>"non-combat" flying...I guess my brother was not in combat when he got shot
>down during a Dustoff mission in Vietnam? So you are again lying...which
>seems to be about all you are capable of doing anymore. Sad.
>
>Brooks
>
>>
>>
>> Arthur Kramer
>

And your combat experience was what oh pathetic one?


Arthur Kramer
344th BG 494th BS
England, France, Belgium, Holland, Germany
Visit my WW II B-26 website at:
http://www.coastcomp.com/artkramer

[ArtKramr]

>Subject: Re: Why did Bush join the national guard?
>From: "Kevin Brooks"
>Date: 9/8/2004 5:24 AM Pacific Standard Time
>Message-id: >
>
>
>"ArtKramr" > wrote in message
...
>> >Subject: Re: Why did Bush join the national guard?
>> >From: Ian MacLure
>> >Date: 9/7/2004 9:36 PM Pacific Standard Time
>> >Message-id: >
>> >
>> (ArtKramr) wrote in
>> :
>> >
>> >>>Subject: Re: Why did Bush join the national guard?
>> >>>From: (B2431)
>> >>>Date: 9/7/2004 1:52 PM Pacific Standard Time
>> >>>Message-id:
>> >>
>> >>>I'll bet he saw more combat than you did and he flew C-54s.
>> >>>>>
>> >>
>> >> A C-54 is not a combat aircraft. Seeing "action" implies that you have
>> >> done harm to the enemy. You can't do harm to the enemy in an unarmed
>> >
>> > So being fired on multiple times doesn't count.
>> > Taxiing in wearing substantial portions of your
>> > deceased copilot and good friend doesn't count.
>> > Having a second copilot killed during landing doesn't count.
>> > Flying onto disputed airfields doesn't count?
>> > Losing 20 ft of fuselage to an artillery round and flying whats
>> > left of the airplane to Guam doesn't count?
>> > So I guess whatever it was he was delivering under fire could not
>> > have been that important.
>> > Well, I'm glad you cleared that up.
>> >
>> > I have a friend who was a C-47 driver on D-Day, dropped paras.
>> > I guess what he did doesn't count.
>> >
>> > A gentleman I sat next to in our town band went ashore with the
>> > first wave on D-Day but he was only a doctor so I guess he doesn't
>> > count.
>> >
>> >> airliner. Flying combat airccraft is one thing, Flying airliners is
>> >> something else.
>> >
>> > Does the word tactical transport mean anything to you?
>> > Do you know what day it is even?
>> >
>> > IBM
>> >
>>
>>
>> There is the tip of the spear. Then there is everything else. The very
>best are
>> at the tip of the spear. Where were you?
>
>Then you must not have been at the "tip of the spear", being as you have
>repeatedly proven to be anything but "the very best" (how can a pilot
>washout call himself the "very best"?).
>
>Brooks
>
>>
>>
>> Arthur Kramer
>


You weren't even good enough to make it to combat at all. How pathetic you are
little boy hiding under a desk while a war raged and men fought.


Arthur Kramer
344th BG 494th BS
England, France, Belgium, Holland, Germany
Visit my WW II B-26 website at:
http://www.coastcomp.com/artkramer

[Steven P. McNicoll]

"ArtKramr" > wrote in message
...
>
> I'd say you are a living example of someone not qualified to be anything
> military.
>

You'd be wrong about that too.

[Kevin Brooks]

"ArtKramr" > wrote in message
...
> >Subject: Re: Why did Bush join the national guard?
> >From: "Kevin Brooks"
> >Date: 9/8/2004 5:22 AM Pacific Standard Time
> >Message-id: >
> >
> >
> >"ArtKramr" > wrote in message
> ...
> >> >Subject: Re: Why did Bush join the national guard?
> >> >From: (BUFDRVR)
> >> >Date: 9/7/2004 8:18 PM Pacific Standard Time
> >> >Message-id: >
> >> >
> >> >ArtKramr wrote:
> >> >
> >> >>A C-54 is not a combat aircraft. Seeing "action" implies that you
have
> >done
> >> >>harm to the enemy. You can't do harm to the enemy in an unarmed
> >airliner.
> >> >>Flying combat airccraft is one thing, Flying airliners is something
> >else.
> >> >
> >> >Ahh, now we have a new Kramer version of combat. Now, to qualify, you
> >must
> >> >have
> >> >delivered explosive ordnance. C-47s flying over "the Hump" and
> >intercepted by
> >> >Japanese Zeros...not "real combat". C-130s landing in Khe Sahn during
> >> >artilliary and mortor fire...not combat. UH-60s inserting SF forces
> >behind
> >> >Iraqi lines before the beginning of Iraqi Freedom...not combat. Hell,
Ed
> >> >Rasimus in an F-4E on MiGCAP over Hanoi...not combat. The list gets
> >shorter
> >> >and
> >> >shorter....
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >BUFDRVR
> >> >
> >>
> >>
> >> Don't try to mix Ed with the wannabbes on this NG. Ed fought the good
> >fight.
> >> But why are you still on that eternal bomb run that never ends? You
have
> >been
> >> on that bomb run for years and never reached the target.
> >
> >No, Bufdrvr has hit a few targets, and no doubt he demonstrated better
> >accuracy than you could ever have acheived (despite your whining
> >protestations that you *never* missed a target...yeah, right...). And you
> >curiously missed responding to his other examples of what you have termed
> >"non-combat" flying...I guess my brother was not in combat when he got
shot
> >down during a Dustoff mission in Vietnam? So you are again lying...which
> >seems to be about all you are capable of doing anymore. Sad.
> >
> >Brooks
> >
> >>
> >>
> >> Arthur Kramer
> >
>
> And your combat experience was what oh pathetic one?

Combat experience is not required in order to properly define you as a
pathological liar. And are your veterans' benefits any different from
mine--no? Figures.

Brooks

>
>
> Arthur Kramer

[BUFDRVR]

ArtKramr wrote:

>There is the tip of the spear. Then there is everything else. The very best
>are
>at the tip of the spear.

C-47s delivered paratroopers the night before D-Day. The only other aircraft
airborne were allied fighters. Sounds like "tip of the spear" to me.


BUFDRVR

"Stay on the bomb run boys, I'm gonna get those bomb doors open if it harelips
everyone on Bear Creek"

[B2431]

>From: (ArtKramr)
>Date: 9/8/2004 1:39 PM Central Daylight Time
>Message-id: >
>
>>Subject: Re: Why did Bush join the national guard?
>>From: (B2431)
>>Date: 9/8/2004 8:15 AM Pacific Standard Time
>>Message-id:
>
>>No I wasn't there, but you yourself have said that would be the case.
>>
>>Dan, U.S. Air Force, retired
>>
>
>That says it all.
>
>
>Arthur Kramer

Nice selective editing, art.

Would you be so kind as to take your ill mannered tantrums elsewhere?

Dan, U.S. Air Force, retired

[B2431]

>From: (ArtKramr)
>Date: 9/8/2004 1:43 PM Central Daylight Time
>Message-id: >
>
>>Subject: Re: Why did Bush join the national guard?
>>From: "Kevin Brooks"
>>Date: 9/8/2004 5:24 AM Pacific Standard Time
>>Message-id: >
>>
>>
>>"ArtKramr" > wrote in message
...
>>> >Subject: Re: Why did Bush join the national guard?
>>> >From: Ian MacLure
>>> >Date: 9/7/2004 9:36 PM Pacific Standard Time
>>> >Message-id: >
>>> >
>>> (ArtKramr) wrote in
>>> :
>>> >
>>> >>>Subject: Re: Why did Bush join the national guard?
>>> >>>From: (B2431)
>>> >>>Date: 9/7/2004 1:52 PM Pacific Standard Time
>>> >>>Message-id:
>>> >>
>>> >>>I'll bet he saw more combat than you did and he flew C-54s.
>>> >>>>>
>>> >>
>>> >> A C-54 is not a combat aircraft. Seeing "action" implies that you have
>>> >> done harm to the enemy. You can't do harm to the enemy in an unarmed
>>> >
>>> > So being fired on multiple times doesn't count.
>>> > Taxiing in wearing substantial portions of your
>>> > deceased copilot and good friend doesn't count.
>>> > Having a second copilot killed during landing doesn't count.
>>> > Flying onto disputed airfields doesn't count?
>>> > Losing 20 ft of fuselage to an artillery round and flying whats
>>> > left of the airplane to Guam doesn't count?
>>> > So I guess whatever it was he was delivering under fire could not
>>> > have been that important.
>>> > Well, I'm glad you cleared that up.
>>> >
>>> > I have a friend who was a C-47 driver on D-Day, dropped paras.
>>> > I guess what he did doesn't count.
>>> >
>>> > A gentleman I sat next to in our town band went ashore with the
>>> > first wave on D-Day but he was only a doctor so I guess he doesn't
>>> > count.
>>> >
>>> >> airliner. Flying combat airccraft is one thing, Flying airliners is
>>> >> something else.
>>> >
>>> > Does the word tactical transport mean anything to you?
>>> > Do you know what day it is even?
>>> >
>>> > IBM
>>> >
>>>
>>>
>>> There is the tip of the spear. Then there is everything else. The very
>>best are
>>> at the tip of the spear. Where were you?
>>
>>Then you must not have been at the "tip of the spear", being as you have
>>repeatedly proven to be anything but "the very best" (how can a pilot
>>washout call himself the "very best"?).
>>
>>Brooks
>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Arthur Kramer
>>
>
>
>You weren't even good enough to make it to combat at all. How pathetic you
>are
>little boy hiding under a desk while a war raged and men fought.
>
>
>Arthur Kramer


Eddie Slovik, George Lincol Rockwell, Tim McVeigh, Bennedict Arnold etc were
"good enough to make it to combat." Gee, how selective can one get?

Dan, U.S. Air Force, retired

[Mike Dargan]

ArtKramr wrote:

>>Subject: Re: Why did Bush join the national guard?
>>From: "Steven P. McNicoll"
>>Date: 9/8/2004 4:59 AM Pacific Standard Time
>>Message-id: . net>
>>
>>
>>"ArtKramr" > wrote in message
...
>>
>>>Do you know why they have pilots on bombers? Just for one reason
>>>which was to put a bombardier over a target for 30 seconds.
>>>
>>
>>Every bomber required at least one pilot, but not every bomber required a
>>bombardier.
>>
>>
>>
>>>The pilot is only a bus driver to deliver him where he can hurt the enemy.
>>>So don't make too big a deal of pilots . Some are good and some are
>>>not..If you get one who can fly a good bomb run, not dump your gyro
>>>and keep the wings level so you don't dump bombs all over the landscape,
>>>you are lucky.But good bomb run pilots are not all that easy to find. And
>>>as far as judging pilots performance on a bomb run, no one is more
>>>qualified to make that judgement than a bombardier. But this is a subject
>>>you would know nothing about.
>>>
>>
>>Sounds like you're bitter over washing out of pilot training and being made
>>a bombardier.
>
>
>
> Never was in pilot traning.Sounds like you are bitter for not fighting for your
> country. But you cant blame me for that. You have only yourself to blame.

Art, in WWII, if a drunken pilot got to snorting too much coke, could
him mom get get a transfer to Alabama where he wouldn't seem so unusual?
Or did that start in the early 1970s?

Cheers

--mike

>
>
>
> Arthur Kramer
> 344th BG 494th BS
> England, France, Belgium, Holland, Germany
> Visit my WW II B-26 website at:
> http://www.coastcomp.com/artkramer
>

[ArtKramr]

>Subject: Re: Why did Bush join the national guard?
>From: Mike Dargan
>Date: 9/8/2004 7:11 PM Pacific Standard Time
>Message-id: <FZO%c.60619$3l3.48557@attbi_s03>
>
>ArtKramr wrote:
>
>>>Subject: Re: Why did Bush join the national guard?
>>>From: "Steven P. McNicoll"
>>>Date: 9/8/2004 4:59 AM Pacific Standard Time
>>>Message-id: . net>
>>>
>>>
>>>"ArtKramr" > wrote in message
...
>>>
>>>>Do you know why they have pilots on bombers? Just for one reason
>>>>which was to put a bombardier over a target for 30 seconds.
>>>>
>>>
>>>Every bomber required at least one pilot, but not every bomber required a
>>>bombardier.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>>The pilot is only a bus driver to deliver him where he can hurt the enemy.
>>>>So don't make too big a deal of pilots . Some are good and some are
>>>>not..If you get one who can fly a good bomb run, not dump your gyro
>>>>and keep the wings level so you don't dump bombs all over the landscape,
>>>>you are lucky.But good bomb run pilots are not all that easy to find. And
>>>>as far as judging pilots performance on a bomb run, no one is more
>>>>qualified to make that judgement than a bombardier. But this is a subject
>>>>you would know nothing about.
>>>>
>>>
>>>Sounds like you're bitter over washing out of pilot training and being made
>
>>>a bombardier.
>>
>>
>>
>> Never was in pilot traning.Sounds like you are bitter for not fighting for
>your
>> country. But you cant blame me for that. You have only yourself to blame.
>
>Art, in WWII, if a drunken pilot got to snorting too much coke, could
>him mom get get a transfer to Alabama where he wouldn't seem so unusual?
> Or did that start in the early 1970s?
>
>Cheers
>
>--mike
>
>>
>>
>>
>> Arthur Kramer
>> 344th BG 494th BS
>> England, France, Belgium, Holland, Germany
>> Visit my WW II B-26 website at:
>> http://www.coastcomp.com/artkramer
>>
>

I think what you would get is 20 years in federal prison.


Arthur Kramer
344th BG 494th BS
England, France, Belgium, Holland, Germany
Visit my WW II B-26 website at:
http://www.coastcomp.com/artkramer

[Bob Coe]

"Mike Dargan" > wrote
>
> Art, in WWII, if a drunken pilot got to snorting too much coke, could him mom get get a
> transfer to Alabama where he wouldn't seem so unusual? Or did that start in the early
> 1970s?
>
> Cheers
>
> --mike

Mike, can you tell us if you stopped beating your wife?

[Mike Dargan]

ArtKramr wrote:

>>Subject: Re: Why did Bush join the national guard?
>>From: "Steven P. McNicoll"
>>Date: 9/8/2004 4:59 AM Pacific Standard Time
>>Message-id: . net>
>>
>>
>>"ArtKramr" > wrote in message
...
>>
>>>Do you know why they have pilots on bombers? Just for one reason
>>>which was to put a bombardier over a target for 30 seconds.
>>>
>>
>>Every bomber required at least one pilot, but not every bomber required a
>>bombardier.
>>
>>
>>
>>>The pilot is only a bus driver to deliver him where he can hurt the enemy.
>>>So don't make too big a deal of pilots . Some are good and some are
>>>not..If you get one who can fly a good bomb run, not dump your gyro
>>>and keep the wings level so you don't dump bombs all over the landscape,
>>>you are lucky.But good bomb run pilots are not all that easy to find. And
>>>as far as judging pilots performance on a bomb run, no one is more
>>>qualified to make that judgement than a bombardier. But this is a subject
>>>you would know nothing about.
>>>
>>
>>Sounds like you're bitter over washing out of pilot training and being made
>>a bombardier.
>
>
>
> Never was in pilot traning.Sounds like you are bitter for not fighting for your
> country. But you cant blame me for that. You have only yourself to blame.

Art, in WWII, if a drunken pilot got to snorting too much coke, could
him mom get him a transfer to Alabama where he wouldn't seem so unusual?
Or did that start in the early 1970s?

Cheers

--mike

>
>
>
> Arthur Kramer
> 344th BG 494th BS
> England, France, Belgium, Holland, Germany
> Visit my WW II B-26 website at:
> http://www.coastcomp.com/artkramer
>

[Ian MacLure]

(ArtKramr) wrote in
:

[snip]

> You weren't even good enough to make it to combat at all. How
> pathetic you are little boy hiding under a desk while a war raged and
> men fought.

Course it could be no one was foolish enough to try anything on
his watch or mine. Its not like we could go around randomly
attacking every Tom, Dhijk, and Abdool now is it?

IBM

__________________________________________________ _____________________________
Posted Via Uncensored-News.Com - Accounts Starting At $6.95 - http://www.uncensored-news.com
<><><><><><><> The Worlds Uncensored News Source <><><><><><><><>

[Jack G]

....
> He's certainly overqualified to be a bombardier judging by
> your sorry ass.
>
> IBM
>

Probably not fair to lump all bombardiers in with the sorry example we have
to contend with on this news group.

Jack G.

[Ian MacLure]

(B2431) wrote in
:

[snip]

> Eddie Slovik, George Lincol Rockwell, Tim McVeigh, Bennedict Arnold
> etc were "good enough to make it to combat." Gee, how selective can
> one get?

Yup and ole Timmy McV got hisself a Bronze Star just like somebody
else we could mention. Only difference is, that young Tim appears
to actually have merited his award and got to keep it.

IBM

__________________________________________________ _____________________________
Posted Via Uncensored-News.Com - Accounts Starting At $6.95 - http://www.uncensored-news.com
<><><><><><><> The Worlds Uncensored News Source <><><><><><><><>

[Raoul]

In article <iCR%c.7474$Va5.2248@trnddc01>, Jack G
> wrote:

> ...
> > He's certainly overqualified to be a bombardier judging by
> > your sorry ass.
> >
> > IBM
> >
>
> Probably not fair to lump all bombardiers in with the sorry example we have
> to contend with on this news group.

Well, Artie may have been a fine bombardier 58 years ago but I'm afraid
the brain has turned to fat at this late date.

And, yes, I am unworthy. I am a coward and never went into battle. I
hang my head.

raoul
>
> Jack G.
>
>

[Raoul]

In article >, Ian MacLure
> wrote:

> (B2431) wrote in
> :
>
> [snip]
>
> > Eddie Slovik, George Lincol Rockwell, Tim McVeigh, Bennedict Arnold
> > etc were "good enough to make it to combat." Gee, how selective can
> > one get?
>
> Yup and ole Timmy McV got hisself a Bronze Star just like somebody
> else we could mention. Only difference is, that young Tim appears
> to actually have merited his award and got to keep it.

The irony is that Benedict Arnold would have been a hero if the Brits
had won..

The other characters are right ****s.

raoul
>
> IBM
>
>
> __________________________________________________ ____________________________
> _
> Posted Via Uncensored-News.Com - Accounts Starting At $6.95 -
> http://www.uncensored-news.com
> <><><><><><><> The Worlds Uncensored News Source <><><><><><><><>
>

[Cub Driver]

On 07 Sep 2004 20:50:44 GMT, (B2431) wrote:

>You have promised to stop initiating OT rants. You lied. You have been asked
>questions such was for a definition of "neocon." Instead of responding you have
>attacked the person asking the question. You have denigrated the service of
>people who served just as honourably as you yet who hadn't seen combat.

It is for these reasons that I long ago kill-filled Art. This is
particularly ironic, since when he first came on the newsgroup he also
took a lot of flak, and I would send him off-post emails urging him
not to lost heart.

As for the topic of this thread, my study of Bush's National Guard
reckon can be found at www.warbirdforum.com/bushf102.htm


all the best -- Dan Ford
email: (put Cubdriver in subject line)

The Warbird's Forum www.warbirdforum.com
Expedition sailboat charters www.expeditionsail.com

[ArtKramr]

>ubject: Re: Why did Bush join the national guard?
>From: Ian MacLure
>Date: 9/8/2004 10:00 PM Pacific Standard Time
>Message-id: >
>
(ArtKramr) wrote in
:
>
> [snip]
>
>> I'd say you are a living example of someone not qualified to be
>> anything military.
>
> He's certainly overqualified to be a bombardier judging by
> your sorry ass.
>
> IBM
>
>
And you wannabee? were you ever anything?


Arthur Kramer
344th BG 494th BS
England, France, Belgium, Holland, Germany
Visit my WW II B-26 website at:
http://www.coastcomp.com/artkramer

[ArtKramr]

>Subject: Re: Why did Bush join the national guard?
>From: "Jack G"
>Date: 9/8/2004 10:11 PM Pacific Standard Time

>He's certainly overqualified to be a bombardier judging by
>> your sorry ass.
>>
>> IBM
>>
>
>Probably not fair to lump all bombardiers in with the sorry example we have
>to contend with on this news group.
>
>Jack G.


And how about you?. I notice you are very careful to cover up your miitary non
performance and failures.


Arthur Kramer
344th BG 494th BS
England, France, Belgium, Holland, Germany
Visit my WW II B-26 website at:
http://www.coastcomp.com/artkramer

[ArtKramr]

>ubject: Re: Why did Bush join the national guard?
>From: Raoul
>Date: 9/8/2004 10:53 PM Pacific Standard Time
>Message-id: >
>
>In article <iCR%c.7474$Va5.2248@trnddc01>, Jack G
> wrote:
>
>> ...
>> > He's certainly overqualified to be a bombardier judging by
>> > your sorry ass.
>> >
>> > IBM
>> >
>>
>> Probably not fair to lump all bombardiers in with the sorry example we have
>> to contend with on this news group.
>
>Well, Artie may have been a fine bombardier 58 years ago but I'm afraid
>the brain has turned to fat at this late date.
>
>And, yes, I am unworthy. I am a coward and never went into battle. I
>hang my head.
>
>raoul
>>
>> Jack G.


Yes. Your shame shows in every post.


Arthur Kramer
344th BG 494th BS
England, France, Belgium, Holland, Germany
Visit my WW II B-26 website at:
http://www.coastcomp.com/artkramer

[Kevin Brooks]

"ArtKramr" > wrote in message
...
> >Subject: Re: Why did Bush join the national guard?
> >From: "Jack G"
> >Date: 9/8/2004 10:11 PM Pacific Standard Time
>
> >He's certainly overqualified to be a bombardier judging by
> >> your sorry ass.
> >>
> >> IBM
> >>
> >
> >Probably not fair to lump all bombardiers in with the sorry example we
have
> >to contend with on this news group.
> >
> >Jack G.
>
>
> And how about you?. I notice you are very careful to cover up your
miitary non
> performance and failures.

Art, why is you always feel immediately compelled to initiate what we used
to refer to as a "dick measuring contest"? Are you really so infantile that
you think the number of "boo" badges, etc., is the definition of a *man*?
Are you really that desperate to try to shore up your own feelings of
inadequacy as a man that you *always* have to resort to the ridiculous,
"what combat did you see, what badges do you have, I have X stars on my
campaign ribbon, what about you?" crap you cough up with each and every
post? Maybe you need to ask the doc to add a little testosterone to your
myriad meds so you can get over these debilitating self-doubts you obviously
maintain.

Brooks

>
>
> Arthur Kramer

[ian maclure]

On Thu, 09 Sep 2004 13:25:13 +0000, ArtKramr wrote:

[snip]

> And you wannabee? were you ever anything?

Yup, had my 15 minutes of fame long ago.

IBM

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[ArtKramr]

>Subject: Re: Why did Bush join the national guard?
>From: "Kevin Brooks"
>Date: 9/9/2004 10:36 AM Pacific Standard Time
>Message-id: >
>
>
>"ArtKramr" > wrote in message
...
>> >Subject: Re: Why did Bush join the national guard?
>> >From: "Jack G"
>> >Date: 9/8/2004 10:11 PM Pacific Standard Time
>>
>> >He's certainly overqualified to be a bombardier judging by
>> >> your sorry ass.
>> >>
>> >> IBM
>> >>
>> >
>> >Probably not fair to lump all bombardiers in with the sorry example we
>have
>> >to contend with on this news group.
>> >
>> >Jack G.
>>
>>
>> And how about you?. I notice you are very careful to cover up your
>miitary non
>> performance and failures.
>
>Art, why is you always feel immediately compelled to initiate what we used
>to refer to as a "dick measuring contest"? Are you really so infantile that
>you think the number of "boo" badges, etc., is the definition of a *man*?
>Are you really that desperate to try to shore up your own feelings of
>inadequacy as a man that you *always* have to resort to the ridiculous,
>"what combat did you see, what badges do you have, I have X stars on my
>campaign ribbon, what about you?" crap you cough up with each and every
>post? Maybe you need to ask the doc to add a little testosterone to your
>myriad meds so you can get over these debilitating self-doubts you obviously
>maintain.
>
>Brooks
>
>>
>>
>> Arthur Kramer

I see you are still into long winded evasions but no repies. None whatever
which is in itself all the reply that is needed.




Arthur Kramer
344th BG 494th BS
England, France, Belgium, Holland, Germany
Visit my WW II B-26 website at:
http://www.coastcomp.com/artkramer

[ArtKramr]

>Subject: Re: Why did Bush join the national guard?
>From: "ian maclure"
>Date: 9/9/2004 11:52 AM Pacific Standard Time
>Message-id: >
>
>On Thu, 09 Sep 2004 13:25:13 +0000, ArtKramr wrote:
>
> [snip]
>
>> And you wannabee? were you ever anything?
>
> Yup, had my 15 minutes of fame long ago.
>
> IBM
>
>

Never knew you were in a war that lasted that long.



Arthur Kramer
344th BG 494th BS
England, France, Belgium, Holland, Germany
Visit my WW II B-26 website at:
http://www.coastcomp.com/artkramer

[Paul J. Adam]

In message >, Cub Driver
> writes
>As for the topic of this thread, my study of Bush's National Guard
>reckon can be found at www.warbirdforum.com/bushf102.htm

Nice piece of work there, Dan, thank you. Unemotive, backed by facts,
separates fact from opinion, and punchy and readable to boot.

--
He thinks too much: such men are dangerous.
Julius Caesar I:2

Paul J. Adam MainBox<at>jrwlynch[dot]demon{dot}co(.)uk

[ian maclure]

On Thu, 09 Sep 2004 21:39:28 +0100, Paul J. Adam wrote:

> In message >, Cub Driver
> > writes
>>As for the topic of this thread, my study of Bush's National Guard
>>reckon can be found at www.warbirdforum.com/bushf102.htm
>
> Nice piece of work there, Dan, thank you. Unemotive, backed by facts,
> separates fact from opinion, and punchy and readable to boot.

And therein lies the problem, Dhimmicrips are discouraged from
reading.

IBM

__________________________________________________ _____________________________
Posted Via Uncensored-News.Com - Accounts Starting At $6.95 - http://www.uncensored-news.com
<><><><><><><> The Worlds Uncensored News Source <><><><><><><><>

[Robey Price]

After an exhausting session with Victoria's Secret Police, "Paul J.
Adam" > confessed the following:

>Nice piece of work there, Dan, thank you. Unemotive, backed by facts,
>separates fact from opinion, and punchy and readable to boot.

Minor corrections:

[quote]"Bush got his pilot's wings in March 1970. (Again, this is
somewhat unusual. He ought to have received them at the end of his
flight training at Moody AFB.) "[unquote]

gwb got them along with the rest of his class at graduation of UPT. In
the catalog of USAF training courses one would find that in order to
attend F-102 RTU the stud would have to be a graduate of UPT (or USN
Flight School). Being a UPT graduate means you've received your wings.
They hand them out at graduation.

[quote]"Updated: Pentagon records released in September 2004 show that
Bush flew a total of 326.4 hours as pilot-in-command over the three
years 1970-1972. "[unquote]

The pedant would point out that the phrase 'over the three years
1970-72' might lead casual readers to think, "Ah three years, 36
months."

When in fact from 23 June 1970 (when gwb completed RTU) until April
1972 (month of his last flight) is merely 22 months...not even two
full years. But I certainly understand Dan being charitable, nor do I
expect him to edit this.

[quote]"In May 1973, Bush took his last physical, which identified him
as a "crew member on flight status," so he evidently wasn't grounded
during his final year in the Guard."[unquote]

Big jump to conclusion on your part. Incorrect conclusion IMO.

Without orders returning him to flying status, somebody, a Med Tech
checking the box on his physical doesn't put gwb on flying status.
Besides that would contradict your implication that there were no
F-102s for him to fly in 1973

[quote]"In 1972, the 111th FIS transitioned to a new aircraft, the
McDonnell-Douglas F-101B Voodoo fighter." [unquote]

Without an aircraft to fly, or a mission to perform there was no
reason to re-instate him to flying status, not to mention his intent
to leave the unit (hell leave the ANG). Folks see a guy with wings on
his uniform they assume he's on flying status...doesn't make it so.

It will be interesting to see how Dan incorporates the Killian memos.

Robey

[Kevin Brooks]

"ian maclure" > wrote in message
...
> On Thu, 09 Sep 2004 19:17:33 +0000, ArtKramr wrote:
>
> [snip]
>
> > Never knew you were in a war that lasted that long.
>
> Hey you can't have a war unless someone wants to fight.
> I suppose I could have made a solo bayonet charge into
> East Germany hoping to provoke WWIII but quite frankly
> that wasn't part of the mission as I understood it.

LOL! That puts things into perspective. Art apparently greatly regrets that
the "old men" (as Kipling put it) in charge during most of the Cold War did
not make the same mistakes that the "old men" of the late thirties made.

"Tell me, do our masters know,
Loosing blindly as they fly,
Old men love while young men die?"


Brooks

>
> IBM
>

[Cub Driver]

On Thu, 9 Sep 2004 21:39:28 +0100, "Paul J. Adam"
> wrote:

>Nice piece of work there, Dan, thank you. Unemotive, backed by facts,
>separates fact from opinion, and punchy and readable to boot.

Thank you. The funny part is, most of the information came from the
anti-Bush websites. They post facsimiles of Bush's records but don't
understand what they mean, either because they're unfamiliar with
military usage ("orders", "cleared") or they view them through a film
of bias.

all the best -- Dan Ford
email: (put Cubdriver in subject line)

The Warbird's Forum www.warbirdforum.com
Expedition sailboat charters www.expeditionsail.com

[Paul J. Adam]

In message >, Robey Price
> writes
>After an exhausting session with Victoria's Secret Police, "Paul J.
>Adam" > confessed the following:
>>Nice piece of work there, Dan, thank you. Unemotive, backed by facts,
>>separates fact from opinion, and punchy and readable to boot.
>
>Minor corrections:

Of course (and read with interest).

But you know what? You're sticking to information you can support, same
as Mr Ford kept his page straighforward and bull****-free (doesn't mean
it's Gospel, just means you and he both avoided the "BU$$$$$H LIES!" and
"DumboCRAP TRAITORS!!!" rubbish that's being spouted too freely here)


If we must have politics here, let it at least be rational.


--
He thinks too much: such men are dangerous.
Julius Caesar I:2

Paul J. Adam MainBox<at>jrwlynch[dot]demon{dot}co(.)uk