Kerry didn't join the National Guard to avoid combat.

[ArtKramr]

Bush did that.


Arthur Kramer
344th BG 494th BS
England, France, Belgium, Holland, Germany
Visit my WW II B-26 website at:
http://www.coastcomp.com/artkramer

[Thomas J. Paladino Jr.]

> Bush did that.

I would probably argue that Bush's 3 years as a fighter pilot were both more
dangerous and of a greater overall service to his country than Kerry's 3
months as a Swiftie. And then there's the fact that Kerry pretty obviously
gamed the system to get out of his tour early.


Hey, but Bush has an 11 point lead, despite your rantings. Or perhaps
because of them. Either way, Kerry is probably toast come November. Oh well.

[Bob Coe]

Yea, you're right. He joined the Naval Reserve to avoid combat.

Never did show up either.

"ArtKramr" > wrote
>
> Bush did that.

[Raoul]

In article >, Thomas J.
Paladino Jr. > wrote:

> > Bush did that.
>
> I would probably argue that Bush's 3 years as a fighter pilot were both more
> dangerous and of a greater overall service to his country than Kerry's 3
> months as a Swiftie. And then there's the fact that Kerry pretty obviously
> gamed the system to get out of his tour early.
>
>
> Hey, but Bush has an 11 point lead, despite your rantings. Or perhaps
> because of them. Either way, Kerry is probably toast come November. Oh well.

And, ya know, those facts about their earlier military conduct really
don't mean much. The Vietnam War was such a ****ed up situation that
it is really hard to figure out what was the 'right' action.

raoul
>
>

[Kevin Brooks]

"ArtKramr" > wrote in message
...
> Bush did that.

But by his own admission, in an account resurfaced by the Boston Globe some
time back, Kerry did admit he volunteered for Swift boat duty because he
thought it would get him into the theater *without* exposing him to actual
combat. "I didn't really want to get involved in the war," Kerry said in a
little-noticed contribution to a book of Vietnam reminiscences published in
1986. "When I signed up for the swift boats, they had very little to do with
the war. They were engaged in coastal patrolling and that's what I thought I
was going to be doing."

www.spinsanity.org/post.html?2004_08_01_archive.html

So where does that leave him?

Brooks
>
>
> Arthur Kramer

[Thomas J. Paladino Jr.]

"Raoul" > wrote in message
...
> In article >, Thomas J.
> Paladino Jr. > wrote:
>
> > > Bush did that.
> >
> > I would probably argue that Bush's 3 years as a fighter pilot were both
more
> > dangerous and of a greater overall service to his country than Kerry's 3
> > months as a Swiftie. And then there's the fact that Kerry pretty
obviously
> > gamed the system to get out of his tour early.
> >
> >
> > Hey, but Bush has an 11 point lead, despite your rantings. Or perhaps
> > because of them. Either way, Kerry is probably toast come November. Oh
well.
>
> And, ya know, those facts about their earlier military conduct really
> don't mean much. The Vietnam War was such a ****ed up situation that
> it is really hard to figure out what was the 'right' action.
>


Yep, thats basically the core truth of this whole issue.

Unfortunately, Kerry decided to make his three months in Vietnam the
foundation of his entire campaign, so now here we are dissecting what two
kids in their 20s did during probably the most ass-backwards period in
modern history.

If Kerry had spent more time talking about his 20 years in the senate,
rather than his 3 months in 'Nam, then this would be a non-issue. I still
don't know what he did in the senate for all that time.

[Steven P. McNicoll]

"Kevin Brooks" > wrote in message
...
>
> But by his own admission, in an account resurfaced by the Boston Globe
> some
> time back, Kerry did admit he volunteered for Swift boat duty because he
> thought it would get him into the theater *without* exposing him to actual
> combat. "I didn't really want to get involved in the war," Kerry said in a
> little-noticed contribution to a book of Vietnam reminiscences published
> in
> 1986. "When I signed up for the swift boats, they had very little to do
> with
> the war. They were engaged in coastal patrolling and that's what I thought
> I
> was going to be doing."
>
> www.spinsanity.org/post.html?2004_08_01_archive.html
>
> So where does that leave him?
>

Uhh, wiser than anyone imagined?

[Steven P. McNicoll]

"Thomas J. Paladino Jr." > wrote in message
...
>
> If Kerry had spent more time talking about his 20 years in the senate,
> rather than his 3 months in 'Nam, then this would be a non-issue.
>

Yeah, and Bush would have a twenty point lead.

[Bob Coe]

"Thomas J. Paladino Jr." > wrote
>
> I still don't know what he did in the senate for all that time.

Ask Kennedy, he's the guy that kept him elected in MA.

[ArtKramr]

>Subject: Re: Kerry didn't join the National Guard to avoid combat.
>From: "Steven P. McNicoll"
>Date: 9/5/2004 2:41 PM Pacific Standard Time
>Message-id: et>
>
>
>"Thomas J. Paladino Jr." > wrote in message
...
>>
>> If Kerry had spent more time talking about his 20 years in the senate,
>> rather than his 3 months in 'Nam, then this would be a non-issue.
>>
>
>Yeah, and Bush would have a twenty point lead.


Let's see if I have the neocon logic right. Bush who never saw combat or fired
a shot in anger or met the enemy is a hero. But Kerry, wounded many times in
combat, awarded a Silver Star and three Purple Hearts is a coward. Right
neocons? What a sick bunch you are.


Arthur Kramer
344th BG 494th BS
England, France, Belgium, Holland, Germany
Visit my WW II B-26 website at:
http://www.coastcomp.com/artkramer

[Thomas J. Paladino Jr.]

"Steven P. McNicoll" > wrote in message
ink.net...
>
> "Thomas J. Paladino Jr." > wrote in message
> ...
> >
> > If Kerry had spent more time talking about his 20 years in the senate,
> > rather than his 3 months in 'Nam, then this would be a non-issue.
> >
>
> Yeah, and Bush would have a twenty point lead.
>

Yep. It's funny how liberals have to try to hide the fact that their
liberals in order to get elected to higher office. If they run on their
record, then they don't have a chance in hell.

[Steven P. McNicoll]

"ArtKramr" > wrote in message
...
>>
>>Yeah, and Bush would have a twenty point lead.
>>
>
> Let's see if I have the neocon logic right.
>

You don't use logic.


>
> Bush who never saw combat or fired a shot in anger or met the
> enemy is a hero.
>

Who said Bush is a hero?


>
> But Kerry, wounded many times in combat, awarded a Silver Star
> and three Purple Hearts is a coward.
>

Who said Kerry is a coward?


>
> Right neocons? What a sick bunch you are.
>

Who are the neocons?

[JStONGE123]

And your still flying that bar stool ya drunk.




The Durango 95 purred away real horrorshow. A nice warm vibratey feeling all
through your guttiwuts.

[Bob Coe]

"ArtKramr" > wrote
>
> Let's see if I have the neocon logic right. Bush who never saw combat or fired
> a shot in anger or met the enemy is a hero. But Kerry, wounded many times in
> combat, awarded a Silver Star and three Purple Hearts is a coward. Right
> neocons? What a sick bunch you are.

You don't have it right. Bush and Kerry's military service have nothing to
do with leading a nuclear world power of 300 million people.

What's a neocon?

[Kevin Brooks]

"BUFDRVR" > wrote in message
...
> Kevin Brooks wrote:
>
> >Kerry said in a
> >little-noticed contribution to a book of Vietnam reminiscences published
in
> >1986.
>
> Is this the book going for over $100 on ebay because the DNC is trying to
buy
> them all up? Apparently, in the book, Kerry talks about not getting his
> deferment either. Seems Kerry tried to be like Dick Cheney, but was turned
> down.

Different book, according to the article I read which excerpted his
comments. This was from some kind of compendium with contributions from
various Vietnam veterans. But hey, if you are looking for Kerry
contradictions in regards to his Vietnam service, look no further than David
Brinkley's "Tour of Duty', which was commissioned by Kerry himself
(something he is likely now regretting if he has any sense at all) and which
used his own personal journals as a primary source. In that book he actually
provides evidence *supporting* a couple of the Swift Boat Veterans for Truth
accusations (i.e., he claims at one point that he had not been under enemy
fire on the date which he received his first Purple Heart, and his journal
entry from his *last* mission indicates he really wondered what it was like
on the other side of the Cambodian border--which kind of brings into
question that bit that was supposedly "seared" into his memory...). The book
you are referring to is the one that featured more of his "Vietnam vets are
war criminals" crap, IIRC, and which apparently his tribe has indeed gone to
great lengths to make unavailable whenever possible.

Brooks

>
>
> BUFDRVR
>
> "Stay on the bomb run boys, I'm gonna get those bomb doors open if it
harelips
> everyone on Bear Creek"

[Steven P. McNicoll]

"BUFDRVR" > wrote in message
...
>
> Is this the book going for over $100 on ebay because the DNC is trying to
> buy
> them all up? Apparently, in the book, Kerry talks about not getting his
> deferment either. Seems Kerry tried to be like Dick Cheney, but was turned
> down.
>

Wasn't John Edwards like Dick Cheney? Wasn't he in college prior to the
draft lottery?

[Jack]

On Sun, 05 Sep 2004 17:35:38 GMT, "Thomas J. Paladino Jr."
> wrote:

>
>> Bush did that.
>
>I would probably argue that Bush's 3 years as a fighter pilot were both more
>dangerous and of a greater overall service to his country than Kerry's 3
>months as a Swiftie. And then there's the fact that Kerry pretty obviously
>gamed the system to get out of his tour early.

LOL.....sure, you could argue it, but you'd be wrong. An interceptor
unit in Texas flying soon to be obsolete aircraft was not exactly the
'Tip of the Spear' of national defense.

Bush was in a chamgaigne unit to avoid the draft. Plain and simple.
However, he couldn't even honorably complete that cushy mission
without disappearing for a year.

When mandatory drug testing was implemented as part of all flight
physicals, Bush refused to take his required physical and grounded
himself. Shortly afterwards he disappeared. You connect the dots.

All his life Bush has had others to make excuses for him and cover up
his failures. That still holds true today.


To know the neocon chickenhawks.... watch what they do .... not what
they say...... Jack

[ArtKramr]

>Subject: Re: Kerry didn't join the National Guard to avoid combat.
>From: Jack
>Date: 9/6/2004 6:25 AM Pacific Standard Time
>Message-id: >
>
>On Sun, 05 Sep 2004 17:35:38 GMT, "Thomas J. Paladino Jr."
> wrote:
>
>>
>>> Bush did that.
>>
>>I would probably argue that Bush's 3 years as a fighter pilot were both more
>>dangerous and of a greater overall service to his country than Kerry's 3
>>months as a Swiftie. And then there's the fact that Kerry pretty obviously
>>gamed the system to get out of his tour early.
>
>LOL.....sure, you could argue it, but you'd be wrong. An interceptor
>unit in Texas flying soon to be obsolete aircraft was not exactly the
>'Tip of the Spear' of national defense.
>
>Bush was in a chamgaigne unit to avoid the draft. Plain and simple.
>However, he couldn't even honorably complete that cushy mission
>without disappearing for a year.
>
>When mandatory drug testing was implemented as part of all flight
>physicals, Bush refused to take his required physical and grounded
>himself. Shortly afterwards he disappeared. You connect the dots.
>
>All his life Bush has had others to make excuses for him and cover up
>his failures. That still holds true today.
>
>
>To know the neocon chickenhawks.... watch what they do .... not what
>they say...... Jack


They will say anything. but all they will do is give tax cuts to their rich
friends and avoid military duty while they send others out to die. Then they
will reward corporations for sending jobs overseas. Worst administration in
American history.


Arthur Kramer
344th BG 494th BS
England, France, Belgium, Holland, Germany
Visit my WW II B-26 website at:
http://www.coastcomp.com/artkramer

[Dweezil Dwarftosser]

"Steven P. McNicoll" wrote:
>

> Wasn't John Edwards like Dick Cheney? Wasn't he in college prior to the
> draft lottery?

Naw, Cheney was never a scum-sicking ambulance chaser, and
never was responsible for quadrupling the cost of health care
in his home state.
Besides, Edwards was in high school prior to the lottery which
came about during the final two years of the VN war.

[Bob Coe]

"ArtKramr" > wrote
>
> They will say anything.

They will

> but all they will do is give tax cuts to their rich

their rich

> friends and avoid military duty while they send others out to die.

they send

> Then they will reward corporations for sending jobs overseas.

they will

> Worst administration in American history.

It's all "their" fault

[Peter Stickney]

In article >,
Jack > writes:
> On Sun, 05 Sep 2004 17:35:38 GMT, "Thomas J. Paladino Jr."
> > wrote:
>
>>
>>> Bush did that.
>>
>>I would probably argue that Bush's 3 years as a fighter pilot were both more
>>dangerous and of a greater overall service to his country than Kerry's 3
>>months as a Swiftie. And then there's the fact that Kerry pretty obviously
>>gamed the system to get out of his tour early.
>
> LOL.....sure, you could argue it, but you'd be wrong. An interceptor
> unit in Texas flying soon to be obsolete aircraft was not exactly the
> 'Tip of the Spear' of national defense.

Better get youself a map, then, son, and a copy of "Air Force Combat
Wings: Lineage and Histories, 1947-1977", Charles Ravenstein,
ed. Government Printing Office, Washingron, DC, 1984, GPS Stock Number
008-070-00519-1, ISBM 0912799129

and

"Prelude to the Total Force: Air National Guard. 1943-1969", Charles
J, Gross, Government Printing Office, Washington, DC, 1984

You'll find the following interesting facts: Since 1955, all ANG
Fighter Interceptor Squadrons were required to meed the same
training. readiness, adn availability standards as Active Component
FIS's including having airplanes on Zulu Alert (5-minute alert) at all
times.

Trom the 1st of each Calendatr year, here's a listing of the USAF/ANG
Air Defence units in the Southeastern U.S., back to the Texas Gulf
Coast.
1968:
USAF: 319th FIS, Homestead AFB, FL, F-104A
444th FIS, Charleston AFB, SC, F-101B
4780th ADW Perrin AFB, TX, F-102A (Training unit, with alert
commitment)
Air Defence Weapons Center, Tyndall AFB, F-102, F0191B, F0106
(Training unit, with alert comittment)

ANG: 111th FIS, TX ANG, Ellington AFB, TX, F-102A
122nd FIS, LA ANG, NAS New Orleans, LA, F-102A
157th FIS SC ANG, MacEntire ANGB, SC, F-102A
159th FIS, FL AND, Thomas Cole Imeson AP, F-102A
182nd FIS TX ANG, Kelly AFB, TX F-102A

During the tail end of the Johnson Administration, there was a huge
draw-down of USAF AIr Defence Assets. This left:
1969:
USAF: 4780th ADW, Perrin AFB, TX (F-102 RTU)
ADWC, Tyndall AFD, FL (Air Defence Tactics school)

ANG: 111th FIS, TX AND, Ellingron AFB, TX, F-102A
122nd FIS, LA ANG, NAS New Orleans, LA, F-102A
157th FIS, SC ANG, MacEntire ANGB, SC, F-102A
159th FIS, FL AND, Thomas Cole Imeson AP, F-102A
182nd FIS, TX ANG, Kelly AFB, TX F-102A

The ANG's role increased as we went into the 1970s:
1970:
USAF: 4780th ADW, Perrin AFB, TX (F-102 RTU)
ADWC, Tyndall AFD, FL (Air Defence Tactics school)

ANG: 111th FIS, TX AND, Ellingron AFB, TX, F-102A
122nd FIS, LA ANG, NAS New Orleans, LA, F-102A
157th FIS, SC ANG, MacEntire ANGB, SC, F-102A
159th FIS, FL AND, Thomas Cole Imeson AP, F-102A

Things stayed pretty much the same, until late 1971, when the 4780th
ADW closed up shop at Perring AFB, and _all_ F-102 training was
the responsibility of the 111th FIS, TX ANG.

Which leaves in, in 1972, with the following:
USAF: ADWC, Tyndall AFD, FL (Air Defence Tactics school)

ANG: 111th FIS, TX AND, Ellingron AFB, TX, F-102A -> F-101B
157th FIS, SC ANG, MacEntire ANGB, SC, F-102A
159th FIS, FL AND, Thomas Cole Imeson AP, F-102A

Note that at the time, there was, in fact, a very real threat to teh
U.S. coast of the Gulf of Mexico - both from the Cuban FRAC Il-28 jet
bomber regiment based at San Cristobal, (And, as it turned out,
nuclear capable - we hadn't known the the Soviets had sent a nuclear
delivery specialist Il-28 squadron to Cuba as part of their buildup
that caused the Cuban Missile Crisis, and that the airplanes hadn't
been removed when the missiles were withdrawn, and from the Soviet
Tu-95s which rotated through Cuba on a regular basis all through the
1960s through the 1980s. Tht may not seem to be very much to you -
but if you've got nothing to counter them with, they're damned
effective.

As for the F-102 being obsolete, or "Second Line", it's worth noting
that the USAF, at that time, had 3 F-102 Squadrons in Southeast Asia
(Two of which had transferred from the Continental U.S.), 6 in Europe,
and several in the Continental U.S., Alaska, and Iceland. (Note that
many of the F-102 pilots in Soatheast Asia and Europe were ANG Pilots
posted as individuals under the Palace Alert program.

For an obsolete airplane, it stayed in the hot spots for an awfully
long time.
>
> Bush was in a chamgaigne unit to avoid the draft. Plain and simple.
> However, he couldn't even honorably complete that cushy mission
> without disappearing for a year.

Here's a hint - the airplane doesn't know or care if you're rich or
poor, or if you think someone's got political pull. It's just as
ready to kill you no matter what. Pull _might_ get you into an ANG
unit. (And the idea of a former Republican Congressman having being
able to pull strings in Johnson-dominated Texas is so bizzare that the
Twilight Zone wouldn't have filmed it) But it won't get you through
UPT, it won't get you through Transition Training, and it won't get
you Mission Qualified on the aircraft. The macine doesn't care - rich
or poor, if you screw up, you're dead. What it won't tolerate is
stupidity.


> When mandatory drug testing was implemented as part of all flight
> physicals, Bush refused to take his required physical and grounded
> himself. Shortly afterwards he disappeared. You connect the dots.

Mandatory drug testing didn't start until 1974-75, after Bush had
completed his service. You seem, like a lot of kids today, to have
problems with this "chronology" thing - the idea that anything that
occurred before you were born didn't happen in a bizzare jumble of
simultanaety.

> All his life Bush has had others to make excuses for him and cover up
> his failures. That still holds true today.
>
>
> To know the neocon chickenhawks.... watch what they do .... not what
> they say...... Jack

Whereas you do nothing, and say nothing. Thet pretty much says it.

--
Pete Stickney
A strong conviction that something must be done is the parent of many
bad measures. -- Daniel Webster

[Bob]

On Mon, 06 Sep 2004 11:01:40 -0400, Dweezil Dwarftosser
> wrote:

>"Steven P. McNicoll" wrote:
>>
>
>> Wasn't John Edwards like Dick Cheney? Wasn't he in college prior to the
>> draft lottery?
>
>Naw, Cheney was never a scum-sicking ambulance chaser, and
>never was responsible for quadrupling the cost of health care
>in his home state.
>Besides, Edwards was in high school prior to the lottery which
>came about during the final two years of the VN war.

John Edwards
Born June 10, 1953
Lottery #178
http://www.sss.gov/lotter4.htm
"This lottery was conducted for men who would have been called in
1973; however, no new draft orders were issued after 1972."

[Steven P. McNicoll]

"Dweezil Dwarftosser" > wrote in message
...
>
> Besides, Edwards was in high school prior to the lottery which
> came about during the final two years of the VN war.
>

Yeah, born in June 1953. I thought he was a bit older than that.

Still, he chose not to serve in the military, so by current Democratic
standards he's unfit to hold the office he seeks.

[B2431]

>From: Jack

>When mandatory drug testing was implemented as part of all flight
>physicals, Bush refused to take his required physical and grounded
>himself.

Drug testing is a comman function, not medical. They would not have tested for
drugs suring a flight physical.

Bush was no longer filling a flying slot so no flight physical was required.

Then again, you probably already knew that since you have done such
comprehensive research.

Dan, U.S. Air Force, retired

[Steve Hix]

In article >,
Jack > wrote:

> Bush was in a chamgaigne unit to avoid the draft. Plain and simple.

A unit that was, at the time he joined, sending pilots on tours to Viet
Nam, among other places, in the Palace Alert program.

You keep forgetting that...

[Tank Fixer]

In article >,
on 05 Sep 2004 17:33:35 GMT,
ArtKramr attempted to say .....

> Bush did that.

Prove it

--
When dealing with propaganda terminology one sometimes always speaks in
variable absolutes. This is not to be mistaken for an unbiased slant.

[Jack]

On Mon, 6 Sep 2004 12:25:04 -0400, (Peter Stickney)
wrote:

>In article >,
> Jack > writes:
>> On Sun, 05 Sep 2004 17:35:38 GMT, "Thomas J. Paladino Jr."
>> > wrote:
>>
>>>
>>>> Bush did that.
>>>
>>>I would probably argue that Bush's 3 years as a fighter pilot were both more
>>>dangerous and of a greater overall service to his country than Kerry's 3
>>>months as a Swiftie. And then there's the fact that Kerry pretty obviously
>>>gamed the system to get out of his tour early.
>>
>> LOL.....sure, you could argue it, but you'd be wrong. An interceptor
>> unit in Texas flying soon to be obsolete aircraft was not exactly the
>> 'Tip of the Spear' of national defense.
>
>Better get youself a map, then, son, and a copy of "Air Force Combat
>Wings: Lineage and Histories, 1947-1977", Charles Ravenstein,
>ed. Government Printing Office, Washingron, DC, 1984, GPS Stock Number
>008-070-00519-1, ISBM 0912799129
>
>and
>
>"Prelude to the Total Force: Air National Guard. 1943-1969", Charles
>J, Gross, Government Printing Office, Washington, DC, 1984
>
>You'll find the following interesting facts: Since 1955, all ANG
>Fighter Interceptor Squadrons were required to meed the same
>training. readiness, adn availability standards as Active Component
>FIS's including having airplanes on Zulu Alert (5-minute alert) at all
>times.
>
>Trom the 1st of each Calendatr year, here's a listing of the USAF/ANG
>Air Defence units in the Southeastern U.S., back to the Texas Gulf
>Coast.
>1968:
>USAF: 319th FIS, Homestead AFB, FL, F-104A
> 444th FIS, Charleston AFB, SC, F-101B
> 4780th ADW Perrin AFB, TX, F-102A (Training unit, with alert
> commitment)
> Air Defence Weapons Center, Tyndall AFB, F-102, F0191B, F0106
> (Training unit, with alert comittment)
>
>ANG: 111th FIS, TX ANG, Ellington AFB, TX, F-102A
> 122nd FIS, LA ANG, NAS New Orleans, LA, F-102A
> 157th FIS SC ANG, MacEntire ANGB, SC, F-102A
> 159th FIS, FL AND, Thomas Cole Imeson AP, F-102A
> 182nd FIS TX ANG, Kelly AFB, TX F-102A
>
>During the tail end of the Johnson Administration, there was a huge
>draw-down of USAF AIr Defence Assets. This left:
>1969:
>USAF: 4780th ADW, Perrin AFB, TX (F-102 RTU)
> ADWC, Tyndall AFD, FL (Air Defence Tactics school)
>
>ANG: 111th FIS, TX AND, Ellingron AFB, TX, F-102A
> 122nd FIS, LA ANG, NAS New Orleans, LA, F-102A
> 157th FIS, SC ANG, MacEntire ANGB, SC, F-102A
> 159th FIS, FL AND, Thomas Cole Imeson AP, F-102A
> 182nd FIS, TX ANG, Kelly AFB, TX F-102A
>
>The ANG's role increased as we went into the 1970s:
>1970:
>USAF: 4780th ADW, Perrin AFB, TX (F-102 RTU)
> ADWC, Tyndall AFD, FL (Air Defence Tactics school)
>
>ANG: 111th FIS, TX AND, Ellingron AFB, TX, F-102A
> 122nd FIS, LA ANG, NAS New Orleans, LA, F-102A
> 157th FIS, SC ANG, MacEntire ANGB, SC, F-102A
> 159th FIS, FL AND, Thomas Cole Imeson AP, F-102A
>
>Things stayed pretty much the same, until late 1971, when the 4780th
> ADW closed up shop at Perring AFB, and _all_ F-102 training was
> the responsibility of the 111th FIS, TX ANG.
>
>Which leaves in, in 1972, with the following:
>USAF: ADWC, Tyndall AFD, FL (Air Defence Tactics school)
>
>ANG: 111th FIS, TX AND, Ellingron AFB, TX, F-102A -> F-101B
> 157th FIS, SC ANG, MacEntire ANGB, SC, F-102A
> 159th FIS, FL AND, Thomas Cole Imeson AP, F-102A
>
>Note that at the time, there was, in fact, a very real threat to teh
>U.S. coast of the Gulf of Mexico - both from the Cuban FRAC Il-28 jet
>bomber regiment based at San Cristobal, (And, as it turned out,
>nuclear capable - we hadn't known the the Soviets had sent a nuclear
>delivery specialist Il-28 squadron to Cuba as part of their buildup
>that caused the Cuban Missile Crisis, and that the airplanes hadn't
>been removed when the missiles were withdrawn, and from the Soviet
>Tu-95s which rotated through Cuba on a regular basis all through the
>1960s through the 1980s. Tht may not seem to be very much to you -
>but if you've got nothing to counter them with, they're damned
>effective.
>
>As for the F-102 being obsolete, or "Second Line", it's worth noting
>that the USAF, at that time, had 3 F-102 Squadrons in Southeast Asia
>(Two of which had transferred from the Continental U.S.), 6 in Europe,
>and several in the Continental U.S., Alaska, and Iceland. (Note that
>many of the F-102 pilots in Soatheast Asia and Europe were ANG Pilots
>posted as individuals under the Palace Alert program.
>
>For an obsolete airplane, it stayed in the hot spots for an awfully
>long time.

LOL.... well my friend, that was a rather lengthy diatribe that said
very little and proved nothing concerning the point of the original
comment. To set the record straight, the real threat of airborne
invasion during the cold war was always from the north, thus NORAD.
Trying to make a couple of aircraft in Cuba sound like a viable threat
is really grasping for straws. However, in the extremely unlikely
event of a couple Cuban aircraft 'invading' the U.S.... Southern
Command and interceptor units out of Florida would have been tasked,
not some champaign unit in Texas. Yes, F-102's served in Viet Nam, as
did F-100's, O-2's, even A-1Skyraiders. All were considered obsolete
aircraft but fit a special niche requirement. No matter how you
attempt to spin it.... George W. Bush was in that unit specifically to
avoid combat.

>> Bush was in a chamgaigne unit to avoid the draft. Plain and simple.
>> However, he couldn't even honorably complete that cushy mission
>> without disappearing for a year.
>
>Here's a hint - the airplane doesn't know or care if you're rich or
>poor, or if you think someone's got political pull. It's just as
>ready to kill you no matter what. Pull _might_ get you into an ANG
>unit. (And the idea of a former Republican Congressman having being
>able to pull strings in Johnson-dominated Texas is so bizzare that the
>Twilight Zone wouldn't have filmed it) But it won't get you through
>UPT, it won't get you through Transition Training, and it won't get
>you Mission Qualified on the aircraft. The macine doesn't care - rich
>or poor, if you screw up, you're dead. What it won't tolerate is
>stupidity.

Scoring the lowest possible passing score, 25%, on his pilots aptitude
test, then leap frogging in front of 500 other qualified applicants
who applied for slots before he did wasn't simply a 'stroke of luck'
for George W. Bush! You're either extremely naive or so blinded by
partisanship you refuse to acknowledge the obvious. No, the aircraft
doesn't care if you're rich or poor or have political connections.
However, some of those in positions of authority, who made the
selections as to who got assigned to the few available slots obviously
did. The aircraft is simply a machine, it didn't do the recruiting!
Also, if you're implying Texas politics isn't and hasn't been
'bizzare' for the past 100 years, you have a lot to learn about Texas
and politics.

>> When mandatory drug testing was implemented as part of all flight
>> physicals, Bush refused to take his required physical and grounded
>> himself. Shortly afterwards he disappeared. You connect the dots.
>
>Mandatory drug testing didn't start until 1974-75, after Bush had
>completed his service. You seem, like a lot of kids today, to have
>problems with this "chronology" thing - the idea that anything that
>occurred before you were born didn't happen in a bizzare jumble of
>simultanaety.

Mandatory drug testing in conjunction with flight physicals, both in
the CONUS and overseas began in April, 1972. The flight physical
George W. Bush dodged was scheduled in August, 1972. I was in the
active duty Air Force, on flying status at the time, and am well aware
of the dates, thank you. That 'chronology' thing is a bitch, isn't
it.

>
>> All his life Bush has had others to make excuses for him and cover up
>> his failures. That still holds true today.
>>
>>
>> To know the neocon chickenhawks.... watch what they do .... not what
>> they say...... Jack
>
>Whereas you do nothing, and say nothing. Thet pretty much says it.

Says what??.... LOL.... you amateur history revisionists crack me up!


To know the neocon chickenhawks ......... watch what they do .... not
what they say........ Jack

[Jack]

On 06 Sep 2004 18:53:52 GMT, (B2431) wrote:

>>From: Jack
>
>>When mandatory drug testing was implemented as part of all flight
>>physicals, Bush refused to take his required physical and grounded
>>himself.
>
>Drug testing is a comman function, not medical. They would not have tested for
>drugs suring a flight physical.
>
>Bush was no longer filling a flying slot so no flight physical was required.
>
>Then again, you probably already knew that since you have done such
>comprehensive research.
>
>Dan, U.S. Air Force, retired

Random drug testing of the entire force and mandatory drug testing in
conjunction with flight physicals, at both CONUS and overseas bases,
was implemented in April, 1972. Not as command prerogative, but by
Air Force directive following DoD guidance. George W. Bush was
filling a flying slot until failing to appear for his annual flight
physical in August, 1972. And yes, I have done the research, thank
you...I was also there at the time.

Jack, U.S. Air Force, Retired


To know the neocon chickenhawks ....... watch what they do .... not
what they say.......... Jack

[Jack]

On Mon, 06 Sep 2004 18:32:41 -0700, Steve Hix
> wrote:

>In article >,
> Jack > wrote:
>
>> Bush was in a chamgaigne unit to avoid the draft. Plain and simple.
>
>A unit that was, at the time he joined, sending pilots on tours to Viet
>Nam, among other places, in the Palace Alert program.
>
>You keep forgetting that...

No, I didn't forget that. F-102 jocks flying recce in Viet Nam needed
500 hours in the aircraft. George W. Bush had less than 300 when he
refused his annual flight physical. My point was not against those
flying the F-102 in the ANG. Many of them did stand up and fight when
called.. George W. Bush simply wasn't one of them.


To know the neocon chickenhawks ....... watch what they do .... not
what they say...... Jack

[ArtKramr]

>Subject: Re: Kerry didn't join the National Guard to avoid combat.
>From: Jack
>Date: 9/7/2004 7:45 AM Pacific Standard Time
>Message-id: >
>
>On Mon, 06 Sep 2004 18:32:41 -0700, Steve Hix
> wrote:
>
>>In article >,
>> Jack > wrote:
>>
>>> Bush was in a chamgaigne unit to avoid the draft. Plain and simple.
>>
>>A unit that was, at the time he joined, sending pilots on tours to Viet
>>Nam, among other places, in the Palace Alert program.
>>
>>You keep forgetting that...
>
>No, I didn't forget that. F-102 jocks flying recce in Viet Nam needed
>500 hours in the aircraft. George W. Bush had less than 300 when he
>refused his annual flight physical. My point was not against those
>flying the F-102 in the ANG. Many of them did stand up and fight when
>called.. George W. Bush simply wasn't one of them.
>
>
>To know the neocon chickenhawks ....... watch what they do .... not
>what they say...... Jack
>


A fighter piot who never fought is like a bombardier who never flew a bomb run
or a navigator who never plotted a course. WORTHLESS


Arthur Kramer
344th BG 494th BS
England, France, Belgium, Holland, Germany
Visit my WW II B-26 website at:
http://www.coastcomp.com/artkramer

[Ed Rasimus]

On Tue, 07 Sep 2004 08:40:24 -0600, Jack > wrote:

>Random drug testing of the entire force and mandatory drug testing in
>conjunction with flight physicals, at both CONUS and overseas bases,
>was implemented in April, 1972. Not as command prerogative, but by
>Air Force directive following DoD guidance. George W. Bush was
>filling a flying slot until failing to appear for his annual flight
>physical in August, 1972. And yes, I have done the research, thank
>you...I was also there at the time.
>
>Jack, U.S. Air Force, Retired

Then, Jack, you also know that random drug testing was not done in
conjunction with a flight physical. That wouldn't have been effective
at all, since the flight physical was a scheduled event (at the
discretion of the individual during the 90 day window before his
birthday), and therefore easy to beat by abstaining from drugs for a
week beforehand. (The discrimination of the drug test in those days
was nowhere near what it is today.)

Let's also note that the physical in '72 was more than four years
after George W. Bush entered USAF pilot training, was at a time when
his unit mission had changed from operational to qualification
training and in which he was not going to be transitioned to the F-101
or upgraded to IP in the Deuce since he did not have sufficient
retainability.

You'll also recall that officers in non-flying billets got a physical
every three years rather than an annual flight physical and if you
weren't on flying status you could let your physical lapse and an
aeronautical order (routine) would be issued to remove you from
status.

I've done the research as well as being in the business. In April of
'72 I was at Luke checking out in the F-4C and in August of '72 I was
at Korat flying into NVN daily. Where were you at that time? (Since
you brought it up.)



Ed Rasimus
Fighter Pilot (USAF-Ret)
"When Thunder Rolled"
"Phantom Flights, Bangkok Nights"
Both from Smithsonian Books
***www.thunderchief.org

[Ed Rasimus]

On Tue, 07 Sep 2004 08:45:04 -0600, Jack > wrote:

>On Mon, 06 Sep 2004 18:32:41 -0700, Steve Hix
> wrote:
>
>>In article >,
>> Jack > wrote:
>>
>>> Bush was in a chamgaigne unit to avoid the draft. Plain and simple.
>>

Jack, at least learn to spell champagne. It will lend credibility to
your other ravings.

>>A unit that was, at the time he joined, sending pilots on tours to Viet
>>Nam, among other places, in the Palace Alert program.
>>
>>You keep forgetting that...
>
>No, I didn't forget that. F-102 jocks flying recce in Viet Nam needed
>500 hours in the aircraft.

Wrong on two counts. First, F-102s did not fly recce--EVER. They were
interceptors flying air defense alert. And second, the 500 hour
requirement was not for Vietnam deployment but for Palace Alert. Lots
of folks went to SEA with a lot less hours in their system even when
"minimum" requirements were higher.

>George W. Bush had less than 300 when he
>refused his annual flight physical. My point was not against those
>flying the F-102 in the ANG. Many of them did stand up and fight when
>called.. George W. Bush simply wasn't one of them.

And, wrong again. You need to read slowly and try not to move your
lips. Bush had approximately 300 hours when he VOLUNTEERED for Palace
Alert--a program to deploy ANG interceptor pilots worldwide (including
SEA) to support USAF operations. The desired minimum was 500 hours,
but could routinely be waived to meet requirements.

He did not take a flight physical when he would not be performing
flight duties during the last several months of his ANG tenure when
the force was being reduced in all units as SEA was coming to a
conclusion.

And, where exactly did you say you were flying during those years?


Ed Rasimus
Fighter Pilot (USAF-Ret)
"When Thunder Rolled"
"Phantom Flights, Bangkok Nights"
Both from Smithsonian Books
***www.thunderchief.org

[Steven P. McNicoll]

"Jack" > wrote in message
...
>
> No, I didn't forget that. F-102 jocks flying recce in Viet Nam needed
> 500 hours in the aircraft.
>

F-102 jocks didn't fly recce anywhere.

[George Z. Bush]

"Ed Rasimus" > wrote in message
...
> On Tue, 07 Sep 2004 08:45:04 -0600, Jack > wrote:
>
>>On Mon, 06 Sep 2004 18:32:41 -0700, Steve Hix
> wrote:
>>
>>>In article >,
>>> Jack > wrote:

>>George W. Bush had less than 300 when he
>>refused his annual flight physical. My point was not against those
>>flying the F-102 in the ANG. Many of them did stand up and fight when
>>called.. George W. Bush simply wasn't one of them.
>
> And, wrong again. You need to read slowly and try not to move your
> lips. Bush had approximately 300 hours when he VOLUNTEERED for Palace
> Alert--a program to deploy ANG interceptor pilots worldwide (including
> SEA) to support USAF operations. The desired minimum was 500 hours,
> but could routinely be waived to meet requirements.

Since you've already done the research, did you happen to come across an
explanation as to why the 500 hour desired minimum that could routinely be
waived wasn't waived in his case?

(Snip)

> And, where exactly did you say you were flying during those years?

Who? Me? I was enjoying retired life in North Carolina, having already done my
bit during three wars. Surely you don't have a problem with that, do you?

George Z.
USAF (Ret)
Rescue Pilot Extraordinaire (the kind who used to go looking for the fighter
jocks who'd lost their way or otherwise couldn't get their gear down over their
home runways)
(^-^))))))))))))))))))))

[Steven P. McNicoll]

"Jack" > wrote in message
...
>
> LOL.... well my friend, that was a rather lengthy diatribe that said
> very little and proved nothing concerning the point of the original
> comment. To set the record straight, the real threat of airborne
> invasion during the cold war was always from the north, thus NORAD.
>

The "North" of NORAD refers to the continent of North America, not to the
direction from which an attack may come.


>
> Trying to make a couple of aircraft in Cuba sound like a viable threat
> is really grasping for straws. However, in the extremely unlikely
> event of a couple Cuban aircraft 'invading' the U.S.... Southern
> Command and interceptor units out of Florida would have been tasked,
> not some champaign unit in Texas.
>

Southern Command is responsible for Central and South America. Texas and
Florida are in North America.

By the way, you'll find most airbases, regular, Guard, and Reserve, built on
level open country. Makes for easier runway construction.


>
> Scoring the lowest possible passing score, 25%, on his pilots aptitude
> test, then leap frogging in front of 500 other qualified applicants
> who applied for slots before he did wasn't simply a 'stroke of luck'
> for George W. Bush!
>

There were 500 other qualified applicants for pilot slots in the 111th FIS
at that time? What hard evidence do you have of that?

[Kevin Brooks]

"Ed Rasimus" > wrote in message
...
> On Tue, 07 Sep 2004 08:45:04 -0600, Jack > wrote:
>
> >On Mon, 06 Sep 2004 18:32:41 -0700, Steve Hix
> > wrote:
> >
> >>In article >,
> >> Jack > wrote:
> >>
> >>> Bush was in a chamgaigne unit to avoid the draft. Plain and simple.
> >>
>
> Jack, at least learn to spell champagne. It will lend credibility to
> your other ravings.
>
> >>A unit that was, at the time he joined, sending pilots on tours to Viet
> >>Nam, among other places, in the Palace Alert program.
> >>
> >>You keep forgetting that...
> >
> >No, I didn't forget that. F-102 jocks flying recce in Viet Nam needed
> >500 hours in the aircraft.
>
> Wrong on two counts. First, F-102s did not fly recce--EVER. They were
> interceptors flying air defense alert. And second, the 500 hour
> requirement was not for Vietnam deployment but for Palace Alert.

From what I have read, it was not written into stone for Palace Alert,
either--it apparently changed as the available pool of volunteers changed.
One of the last F-102 intercepts of a Tu-95 ever flown by the USAF was made
by a junior ANG LT who was flying Palace Alert duty out of Iceland (around
1973, IIRC).

Lots
> of folks went to SEA with a lot less hours in their system even when
> "minimum" requirements were higher.
>
> >George W. Bush had less than 300 when he
> >refused his annual flight physical. My point was not against those
> >flying the F-102 in the ANG. Many of them did stand up and fight when
> >called.. George W. Bush simply wasn't one of them.
>
> And, wrong again. You need to read slowly and try not to move your
> lips. Bush had approximately 300 hours when he VOLUNTEERED for Palace
> Alert--a program to deploy ANG interceptor pilots worldwide (including
> SEA) to support USAF operations. The desired minimum was 500 hours,
> but could routinely be waived to meet requirements.

Exactly.

Brooks

>
> He did not take a flight physical when he would not be performing
> flight duties during the last several months of his ANG tenure when
> the force was being reduced in all units as SEA was coming to a
> conclusion.
>
> And, where exactly did you say you were flying during those years?
>
>
> Ed Rasimus
> Fighter Pilot (USAF-Ret)
> "When Thunder Rolled"
> "Phantom Flights, Bangkok Nights"
> Both from Smithsonian Books
> ***www.thunderchief.org

[Kevin Brooks]

"George Z. Bush" > wrote in message
...
>
> "Ed Rasimus" > wrote in message
> ...
> > On Tue, 07 Sep 2004 08:45:04 -0600, Jack > wrote:
> >
> >>On Mon, 06 Sep 2004 18:32:41 -0700, Steve Hix
> > wrote:
> >>
> >>>In article >,
> >>> Jack > wrote:
>
> >>George W. Bush had less than 300 when he
> >>refused his annual flight physical. My point was not against those
> >>flying the F-102 in the ANG. Many of them did stand up and fight when
> >>called.. George W. Bush simply wasn't one of them.
> >
> > And, wrong again. You need to read slowly and try not to move your
> > lips. Bush had approximately 300 hours when he VOLUNTEERED for Palace
> > Alert--a program to deploy ANG interceptor pilots worldwide (including
> > SEA) to support USAF operations. The desired minimum was 500 hours,
> > but could routinely be waived to meet requirements.
>
> Since you've already done the research, did you happen to come across an
> explanation as to why the 500 hour desired minimum that could routinely be
> waived wasn't waived in his case?

You have been told this before, with citations provided, and you ignored it
then--why would you be interested now?

Brooks

>
> (Snip)
>
> > And, where exactly did you say you were flying during those years?
>
> Who? Me? I was enjoying retired life in North Carolina, having already
done my
> bit during three wars. Surely you don't have a problem with that, do you?
>
> George Z.
> USAF (Ret)
> Rescue Pilot Extraordinaire (the kind who used to go looking for the
fighter
> jocks who'd lost their way or otherwise couldn't get their gear down over
their
> home runways)
> (^-^))))))))))))))))))))
>
>

[Steve Hix]

In article >,
Jack > wrote:

> On Mon, 06 Sep 2004 18:32:41 -0700, Steve Hix
> > wrote:
>
> >In article >,
> > Jack > wrote:
> >
> >> Bush was in a chamgaigne unit to avoid the draft. Plain and simple.
> >
> >A unit that was, at the time he joined, sending pilots on tours to Viet
> >Nam, among other places, in the Palace Alert program.
> >
> >You keep forgetting that...
>
> No, I didn't forget that. F-102 jocks flying recce in Viet Nam needed
> 500 hours in the aircraft.

Which was pointed out to him when he inquired about signing up for the
program.

> George W. Bush had less than 300 when he refused his annual flight physical.

Which he did because he was no longer on flying status (the unit was
swtiching from F-102 to F-101, and his hitch had too little time left to
make retraining worth the effort.

> My point was not against those
> flying the F-102 in the ANG. Many of them did stand up and fight when
> called.. George W. Bush simply wasn't one of them.

Since he was never called to do it, you've got not standing for argument.

He was serving as required by the terms of his enlistment; it's no fault
of his that the aircraft they trained him to fly was being taken out of
service.

> To know the neocon chickenhawks ....... watch what they do .... not
> what they say...... Jack

It's pretty clear that you're not interested in any inconvenient facts.

[Dave]

>
>
> A fighter piot who never fought is like a bombardier who never flew a bomb
run
> or a navigator who never plotted a course. WORTHLESS
>
You are a true idiot. Ever hear of the Cold War? How about a sailor on a
missile submarine or a SAC crewman? Were they worthless also?

>
> Arthur Kramer
> 344th BG 494th BS
> England, France, Belgium, Holland, Germany
> Visit my WW II B-26 website at:
> http://www.coastcomp.com/artkramer
>

[OXMORON1]

George asked:
>Since you've already done the research, did you happen to come across an
>explanation as to why the 500 hour desired minimum that could routinely be
>waived wasn't waived in his case?

One point of view, 500 hours was a "magic" number in a lot of a/c during the
60's. If you got to 500 hours in unit assigned aircraft you were thought to be
proficient in the airplane.
An example, in some units you had to have 500 hours to go cross country solo vs
a two ship deployment with a qualified flight lead. BUT if they needed someone
to go XC to pickup some parts, the 500 hour requirement could/would be waived.
I don't know if the 500 number was an AF Reg or lower mandate.

Rick Clark

[B2431]

>From: Tank Fixer
>Date: 9/6/2004 11:26 PM Central Daylight Time
>Message-id: >
>
>In article >,
> on 05 Sep 2004 17:33:35 GMT,
> ArtKramr attempted to say .....
>
>> Bush did that.
>
>Prove it
>

You have GOT to be kidding. Art would rather lie and slander his betters than
provide proof. I define his "betters" as anyone who respects others who didn't
have combat experience. It makes me think art didn't respect anyone in his own
family.

Dan, U.S. Air Force, retired

[B2431]

>From: Jack

To set the record straight, the real threat of airborne
>invasion during the cold war was always from the north, thus NORAD.
>Trying to make a couple of aircraft in Cuba sound like a viable threat
>is really grasping for straws. However, in the extremely unlikely
>event of a couple Cuban aircraft 'invading' the U.S.... Southern
>Command and interceptor units out of Florida would have been tasked,
>not some champaign unit in Texas. No matter how you attempt to spin it....
George W. Bush was in that unit specifically to
>avoid combat.

I have news for you, if a cerdible threat over the polar cap existed some ANG
units would have been federalized and souhern units would have been deployed.
>
>>> Bush was in a chamgaigne unit to avoid the draft. Plain and simple.

At least her served and was honourbly discharged.

>
>Scoring the lowest possible passing score, 25%, on his pilots aptitude
>test, then leap frogging in front of 500 other qualified applicants
>who applied for slots before he did wasn't simply a 'stroke of luck'
>for George W. Bush! You're either extremely naive or so blinded by
>partisanship you refuse to acknowledge the obvious.

Did it ever occur to you Bush may simply have done it all on his own? Since no
verifiable proof otherwise exists this may be the case. Where did you get the
25% score on his AFOQT?

No, the aircraft
>doesn't care if you're rich or poor or have political connections.
>However, some of those in positions of authority, who made the
>selections as to who got assigned to the few available slots obviously
>did. The aircraft is simply a machine, it didn't do the recruiting!
>Also, if you're implying Texas politics isn't and hasn't been
>'bizzare' for the past 100 years, you have a lot to learn about Texas
>and politics.

That still doesn't prove Bush got special treatment. I'm not saying he didn't,
but either way he did serve.

>>> When mandatory drug testing was implemented as part of all flight
>>> physicals, Bush refused to take his required physical and grounded
>>> himself. Shortly afterwards he disappeared. You connect the dots.
>>
>
>Mandatory drug testing in conjunction with flight physicals, both in
>the CONUS and overseas began in April, 1972. The flight physical
>George W. Bush dodged was scheduled in August, 1972.

Flight physicals are expensive, Bush wasn't going to fly anymore, there's no
proof he was doing illegal drugs at the time etc.

You amateur history revisionists crack me up!

Dan, U.S. Air Force, retired

[Bob Coe]

"ArtKramr" > wrote
>
> A fighter piot who never fought is like a bombardier who never flew a bomb run
> or a navigator who never plotted a course. WORTHLESS

Juvenile logic.

[Bob]

On Tue, 07 Sep 2004 08:40:24 -0600, Jack > wrote:

>On 06 Sep 2004 18:53:52 GMT, (B2431) wrote:
>
>>>From: Jack
>>
>>>When mandatory drug testing was implemented as part of all flight
>>>physicals, Bush refused to take his required physical and grounded
>>>himself.
>>
>>Drug testing is a comman function, not medical. They would not have tested for
>>drugs suring a flight physical.
>>
>>Bush was no longer filling a flying slot so no flight physical was required.
>>
>>Then again, you probably already knew that since you have done such
>>comprehensive research.
>>
>>Dan, U.S. Air Force, retired
>
>Random drug testing of the entire force and mandatory drug testing in
>conjunction with flight physicals, at both CONUS and overseas bases,
>was implemented in April, 1972. Not as command prerogative, but by
>Air Force directive following DoD guidance. George W. Bush was
>filling a flying slot until failing to appear for his annual flight
>physical in August, 1972. And yes, I have done the research, thank
>you...I was also there at the time.

I was there in 1972 on the enlisted side and don't remember "Random
drug testing of the entire force" until sometime around 1980. Didn't
really seem to get going until after 1975 and then it was airman under
four at first and then age I believe was another point. Around 1980
it was everyone. I know I handed out the slips for random testing to
some of my first termers, but never to anyone else even after the
change up to 1982 when I retired.

[Bob Coe]

"Bob" > wrote
>
> I was there in 1972 on the enlisted side and don't remember "Random
> drug testing of the entire force" until sometime around 1980. Didn't
> really seem to get going until after 1975 and then it was airman under
> four at first and then age I believe was another point. Around 1980
> it was everyone. I know I handed out the slips for random testing to
> some of my first termers, but never to anyone else even after the
> change up to 1982 when I retired.

That's pretty much how I remember it. In the late 70's during formation,
I could identify enlisted drug users 100% of the time without a fancy test.

[BUFDRVR]

Dan wrote:

>I define his "betters" as anyone who respects others who didn't
>have combat experience.

Art doesn't respect the service of some who *have* seen combat. So far, in just
the last week, he has denigrated the service of a WWII C-54 pilot and my
participation in Iraqi Freedom. Personally I was honored to join the many who
Art has slandered in the past...kind of felt left out.


BUFDRVR

"Stay on the bomb run boys, I'm gonna get those bomb doors open if it harelips
everyone on Bear Creek"

[Thomas J. Paladino Jr.]

"ArtKramr" > wrote in message
...
> >Subject: Re: Kerry didn't join the National Guard to avoid combat.
> >From: Jack
> >Date: 9/7/2004 7:45 AM Pacific Standard Time
> >Message-id: >
> >
> >On Mon, 06 Sep 2004 18:32:41 -0700, Steve Hix
> > wrote:
> >
> >>In article >,
> >> Jack > wrote:
> >>
> >>> Bush was in a chamgaigne unit to avoid the draft. Plain and simple.
> >>
> >>A unit that was, at the time he joined, sending pilots on tours to Viet
> >>Nam, among other places, in the Palace Alert program.
> >>
> >>You keep forgetting that...
> >
> >No, I didn't forget that. F-102 jocks flying recce in Viet Nam needed
> >500 hours in the aircraft. George W. Bush had less than 300 when he
> >refused his annual flight physical. My point was not against those
> >flying the F-102 in the ANG. Many of them did stand up and fight when
> >called.. George W. Bush simply wasn't one of them.
> >
> >
> >To know the neocon chickenhawks ....... watch what they do .... not
> >what they say...... Jack
> >
>
>
> A fighter piot who never fought is like a bombardier who never flew a bomb
run
> or a navigator who never plotted a course. WORTHLESS


Hey Art, up until very recently, most of our fighter pilots had never seen
combat. Are they all worthless? And I have news for you, most pilots pray
that they never have to see combat. Those guys must really be worthless, no?

[Bob Coe]

"ian maclure" > wrote
> On Tue, 07 Sep 2004 16:54:39 -0500, Bob Coe wrote:
>> "ArtKramr" > wrote
>>>
>>> A fighter piot who never fought is like a bombardier who never flew a bomb run
>>> or a navigator who never plotted a course. WORTHLESS
>>
>> Juvenile logic.
>
> As stated previously, Art is in his second childhood.

I think you're right.

I don't think he's ever heard of IQT (Initial Qualification Training) or
MQT (Mission Qualification Training), where you actually become a
navigator or operational pilot, after being evaluated as to what they do.

I know there must be thousands of "fighter" pilots who never saw combat their
whole career. I'm glad the nuclear alert bomber crews never flew a combat
mission, and I wouldn't call them worthless in capital letters.

I think this Kramer guy must be his son or grandson. I think the real Kramer
is dead, or in an old folks home.

[BUFDRVR]

Dave wrote:

>Ever hear of the Cold War? How about a sailor on a
>missile submarine or a SAC crewman? Were they worthless also?

Uhh ...Dave..let me introduce to Art Kramer...the answer to your question is
"yes". In fact, there are people who served in combat, even in WWII, that
Kramer says were worthless.


BUFDRVR

"Stay on the bomb run boys, I'm gonna get those bomb doors open if it harelips
everyone on Bear Creek"

[Ed Rasimus]

On Tue, 7 Sep 2004 13:20:14 -0400, "George Z. Bush"
> wrote:

>
>"Ed Rasimus" > wrote in message
...
>> On Tue, 07 Sep 2004 08:45:04 -0600, Jack > wrote:
>>
>>>On Mon, 06 Sep 2004 18:32:41 -0700, Steve Hix
> wrote:
>>>
>>>>In article >,
>>>> Jack > wrote:
>
>>>George W. Bush had less than 300 when he
>>>refused his annual flight physical. My point was not against those
>>>flying the F-102 in the ANG. Many of them did stand up and fight when
>>>called.. George W. Bush simply wasn't one of them.
>>
>> And, wrong again. You need to read slowly and try not to move your
>> lips. Bush had approximately 300 hours when he VOLUNTEERED for Palace
>> Alert--a program to deploy ANG interceptor pilots worldwide (including
>> SEA) to support USAF operations. The desired minimum was 500 hours,
>> but could routinely be waived to meet requirements.
>
>Since you've already done the research, did you happen to come across an
>explanation as to why the 500 hour desired minimum that could routinely be
>waived wasn't waived in his case?

No need to waive, since the F-102 was pulled out of SEA by that time.
But, when he went to UPT and when he qualified operationally, the
airplane was still active in the combat theater and was often manned
by ANG forces.
>
>(Snip)
>
>> And, where exactly did you say you were flying during those years?
>
>Who? Me? I was enjoying retired life in North Carolina, having already done my
>bit during three wars. Surely you don't have a problem with that, do you?

No, George, I know where you were and respect your credentials. I was
asking Jack, who mentioned that he had been "aircrew" but gave us
nothing more. Certainly, if he were not, that would not disqualify him
from an opinion, but since he mentioned it in the forum I thought it
might be interesting to explore his aviation experience. Nothing more,
nothing less.


>

Ed Rasimus
Fighter Pilot (USAF-Ret)
"When Thunder Rolled"
"Phantom Flights, Bangkok Nights"
Both from Smithsonian Books
***www.thunderchief.org

[Ed Rasimus]

On 07 Sep 2004 19:10:58 GMT, (OXMORON1) wrote:

>George asked:
>>Since you've already done the research, did you happen to come across an
>>explanation as to why the 500 hour desired minimum that could routinely be
>>waived wasn't waived in his case?
>
>One point of view, 500 hours was a "magic" number in a lot of a/c during the
>60's. If you got to 500 hours in unit assigned aircraft you were thought to be
>proficient in the airplane.
>An example, in some units you had to have 500 hours to go cross country solo vs
>a two ship deployment with a qualified flight lead. BUT if they needed someone
>to go XC to pickup some parts, the 500 hour requirement could/would be waived.
>I don't know if the 500 number was an AF Reg or lower mandate.
>
>Rick Clark

And, upon completion of 100 combat missions over North Vietnam (a tour
that claimed 60% of those who started it), I amassed a total time for
my Form 5 of 404.9 hours in the F-105--training and combat total.

Of course, that allowed me to enter combat in the F-4 with 28 hours in
the F-4C and ZERO flying time in the F-4E before my first combat
mission over NVN.


Ed Rasimus
Fighter Pilot (USAF-Ret)
"When Thunder Rolled"
"Phantom Flights, Bangkok Nights"
Both from Smithsonian Books
***www.thunderchief.org

[B2431]

>From: Bob
>Date: 9/7/2004 5:03 PM Central Daylight Time
>Message-id: >
>
>On Tue, 07 Sep 2004 08:40:24 -0600, Jack > wrote:
>
>>On 06 Sep 2004 18:53:52 GMT, (B2431) wrote:
>>
>>>>From: Jack
>>>
>>>>When mandatory drug testing was implemented as part of all flight
>>>>physicals, Bush refused to take his required physical and grounded
>>>>himself.
>>>
>>>Drug testing is a comman function, not medical. They would not have tested
>for
>>>drugs suring a flight physical.
>>>
>>>Bush was no longer filling a flying slot so no flight physical was
>required.
>>>
>>>Then again, you probably already knew that since you have done such
>>>comprehensive research.
>>>
>>>Dan, U.S. Air Force, retired
>>
>>Random drug testing of the entire force and mandatory drug testing in
>>conjunction with flight physicals, at both CONUS and overseas bases,
>>was implemented in April, 1972. Not as command prerogative, but by
>>Air Force directive following DoD guidance. George W. Bush was
>>filling a flying slot until failing to appear for his annual flight
>>physical in August, 1972. And yes, I have done the research, thank
>>you...I was also there at the time.
>
>I was there in 1972 on the enlisted side and don't remember "Random
>drug testing of the entire force" until sometime around 1980. Didn't
>really seem to get going until after 1975 and then it was airman under
>four at first and then age I believe was another point. Around 1980
>it was everyone. I

During the 1970s it was E-5 and below and 25 years old or younger for the
random tests.


Dan, U.S. Air Force, retired

[Peter Stickney]

In article >,
Jack > writes:
> On Mon, 6 Sep 2004 12:25:04 -0400, (Peter Stickney)
> wrote:

<snip - Air Defence Command ORBAT for the U.S. Southeast, 1968-1972>

> LOL.... well my friend, that was a rather lengthy diatribe that said
> very little and proved nothing concerning the point of the original
> comment. To set the record straight, the real threat of airborne
> invasion during the cold war was always from the north, thus NORAD.
> Trying to make a couple of aircraft in Cuba sound like a viable threat
> is really grasping for straws. However, in the extremely unlikely
> event of a couple Cuban aircraft 'invading' the U.S.... Southern
> Command and interceptor units out of Florida would have been tasked,
> not some champaign unit in Texas. Yes, F-102's served in Viet Nam, as
> did F-100's, O-2's, even A-1Skyraiders. All were considered obsolete
> aircraft but fit a special niche requirement. No matter how you
> attempt to spin it.... George W. Bush was in that unit specifically to
> avoid combat.

I've been to a World's Fair, a Picnic, and a Rodeo, and that's the
stupidest thing I've seen come across a monitor.

You are aware, are you not, that NORAD stands for North American Air
Defence - that's North America, as in the continent that stretches
from the Isthmus of Panama to beyond the Arctic Circle. It was, at
the time, charged with the defence against air attacks of the entire
United States and Canada. (As in it is a dual-nation command, which
encompasses all US and Candadian Air Defence assets on the continent.
Back in those days, it included the USAF's Air Defence Command, The
RCAF, (And later, the small stub of CANFORCE) the odd U.S. Navy
squadron or two, and the U.S. Army's Surface-to-Air missile batteries.)

While the direct route from the Soviet Untion was, indeed, over the
Pole, it was also the least likely approach to have any success.
Soviet bombers would have been picked up above the Artic Circle by the
DEW Line, giving at least two hour's warning. They'd have been
intercepted as they crossed into the contiguous radar coverage of the
Mid-Canada Line, wnd been subject to interception for another 2 hours
or so before reaching their targets. It's rather doubtful that the
Soviets placed a lot of stock on their success in using that route.

An approach more likely to meet with success (as in bombs on target)
was to stage airplanes out of Cuba. Which, in fact, they did. Now,
while the Il-28 may not have been the Hottest Rock in the sky, taht
really doean't matter much if you've got nothing there to intercept
them with. An H-bomb on New Orleans, Galveston, or Houston is going
to do as much damage if it was delivered by an Il-28 as it would if it
was delivered by an ICBM.
If you had the brains to look at a map, you'd see that Cuba isn't a
single speck on the map, but is about 700 miles long, from East to
West, and is pretty well situated to cover the entire U.S. Gulf Coast.

It's also worth pointing out that on several occasions, Cuban Military
aircraft have, indeed penetrated into U.S. Airspace, including a
MiG-17 that landed at Key West, and an An-24 that suddenly showed up
in the traffic pattern in New Orleans. These actions pointed out the
need for maintaining soem air defence presence in the Southeastern
U.S.

What you missed, btw, was the fact that since 1955, an integral part
of all U.S. Air Defence assets has been the Guard. Since the late
1960s, they've far and away provided the majority of airplanes on
alert, and since the ADTAC was dissolved, they're pretty much it.
They aren't amateurs. They train to the same standards as the Active
Compnent types, and are measured against them. Given their
performance at stuff like the FIghter Weapons Meets (Willian Tell),
where Guard units end up winning as often as not, one could claim that
they're on th ewhole more proficient at their particular tasks than
the Active Component types. (That's not too surprising, nor is it a
slap against the Active Component - You've got a large cadre of
experienced, prior service pilots and maintainers, most of whom have
worked together for years. That's tough to beat)


Southern Command was, at that time, a liason unit, tasked with
teaching Central American nations how to deal with whatever insurgents
they were dealing with. (When they werent' whacking on each other over
quarter-final matches in the World Cup) It was Headquartered in
Panama, and has as its flying assets, One Air Commando Squadron (A mix
of C-46s and U-10s)



>
>>> Bush was in a chamgaigne unit to avoid the draft. Plain and simple.
>>> However, he couldn't even honorably complete that cushy mission
>>> without disappearing for a year.
>>
>>Here's a hint - the airplane doesn't know or care if you're rich or
>>poor, or if you think someone's got political pull. It's just as
>>ready to kill you no matter what. Pull _might_ get you into an ANG
>>unit. (And the idea of a former Republican Congressman having being
>>able to pull strings in Johnson-dominated Texas is so bizzare that the
>>Twilight Zone wouldn't have filmed it) But it won't get you through
>>UPT, it won't get you through Transition Training, and it won't get
>>you Mission Qualified on the aircraft. The machine doesn't care - rich
>>or poor, if you screw up, you're dead. What it won't tolerate is
>>stupidity.
>
> Scoring the lowest possible passing score, 25%, on his pilots aptitude
> test, then leap frogging in front of 500 other qualified applicants
> who applied for slots before he did wasn't simply a 'stroke of luck'
> for George W. Bush! You're either extremely naive or so blinded by
> partisanship you refuse to acknowledge the obvious. No, the aircraft
> doesn't care if you're rich or poor or have political connections.
> However, some of those in positions of authority, who made the
> selections as to who got assigned to the few available slots obviously
> did. The aircraft is simply a machine, it didn't do the recruiting!
> Also, if you're implying Texas politics isn't and hasn't been
> 'bizzare' for the past 100 years, you have a lot to learn about Texas
> and politics.

How many of those "500 applicants" (Although nobody counts applicants
- maybe it was 5, or 50, or 50 million) were willing to enter a long
term (6 year) commitment including two years active duty? The guys
looking to avoid the draft were signing on for the 6 Month + 2 year
(IIRC) hitch as an EM.
Whatever his score was, it doesn't matter. He graduated from UPT, he
went through the Instrument School and the F-102 qualification at
Perrin, and he was rated FMQ. Fully Mission Qualified is Fully
Mission Qualified. You can't fake it. (Well you can if you're the
Squadron Political Officer, but that was only in the IA-PVO)

So teach me about Texans and politics.
Considering that I've been accused by Ross Perot of trying to sabotage
his daughter's wedding... (How _do_ you sabotage a Texan's wedding?
Park the pickups too close to the hog spit? Put horse **** in Lone
Star bottles? How could you tell?)
Truth be told, I'm a fairly apolitical rent-a-thug. I've done
security and protection work for candidates of both parties.


>>> When mandatory drug testing was implemented as part of all flight
>>> physicals, Bush refused to take his required physical and grounded
>>> himself. Shortly afterwards he disappeared. You connect the dots.
>>
>>Mandatory drug testing didn't start until 1974-75, after Bush had
>>completed his service. You seem, like a lot of kids today, to have
>>problems with this "chronology" thing - the idea that anything that
>>occurred before you were born didn't happen in a bizzare jumble of
>>simultanaety.
>
> Mandatory drug testing in conjunction with flight physicals, both in
> the CONUS and overseas began in April, 1972. The flight physical
> George W. Bush dodged was scheduled in August, 1972. I was in the
> active duty Air Force, on flying status at the time, and am well aware
> of the dates, thank you. That 'chronology' thing is a bitch, isn't
> it.

Uhm, if you're not on flying status (GWB wasn't in 1972, since he
wasn't going to in long enough to justify transitioning to the F-101Bs
that his unit was receiving, and he wasn't an IP on the F-102 (The
111th FIS was the RTU for the F-102 for the entire Air Force at that
time) then he wouldn't be taking a flight physical.

Put-up time, sport. Lay your cards down. If you were in fact what
you claim, you wouldn't, with a straight face, be making some of the
claims you are.

>>> To know the neocon chickenhawks.... watch what they do .... not what
>>> they say...... Jack
>>
>>Whereas you do nothing, and say nothing. Thet pretty much says it.
>
> Says what??.... LOL.... you amateur history revisionists crack me up!

To quote the Bard, you are "A mass of sound and fury, signifying
nothing."

If you're a shill for the DNC's Internet campaign, they ought to be
asking for their money back.

--
Pete Stickney
A strong conviction that something must be done is the parent of many
bad measures. -- Daniel Webster

[Peter Stickney]

In article >,
(B2431) writes:
>>From: Jack
>
> To set the record straight, the real threat of airborne
>>invasion during the cold war was always from the north, thus NORAD.
>>Trying to make a couple of aircraft in Cuba sound like a viable threat
>>is really grasping for straws. However, in the extremely unlikely
>>event of a couple Cuban aircraft 'invading' the U.S.... Southern
>>Command and interceptor units out of Florida would have been tasked,
>>not some champaign unit in Texas. No matter how you attempt to spin it....
> George W. Bush was in that unit specifically to
>>avoid combat.
>
> I have news for you, if a cerdible threat over the polar cap existed some ANG
> units would have been federalized and souhern units would have been deployed.

Dan, that, in fact is what happened - The idea that an Air Guard unit
belongs to a particular State has been nonsence since the very
beginning of the AIr Guard - 1947. They're a Reserve Compnent of the
AIr Force. Since 1955, Air Guard Fighter Interceptor Suadrons (As
they were then, Fighter Squadrons now) have been required to maintain
readiness at the same levels as the Active Compnent forces, meet teh
same qualification criteria, and be standing 5-minute alert 24 Hrs/Day
7 Days/Week. They've always been under Air Force orders, vectored by
Air Force controllers. The State has nothing to say about that.
And they were all over the country, as well - most ANG FISs were, in
fact, in Norther Tier states.

--
Pete Stickney
A strong conviction that something must be done is the parent of many
bad measures. -- Daniel Webster

[George Z. Bush]

"Ed Rasimus" > wrote in message
...
> On 07 Sep 2004 19:10:58 GMT, (OXMORON1) wrote:
>
>>George asked:
>>>Since you've already done the research, did you happen to come across an
>>>explanation as to why the 500 hour desired minimum that could routinely be
>>>waived wasn't waived in his case?
>>
>>One point of view, 500 hours was a "magic" number in a lot of a/c during the
>>60's. If you got to 500 hours in unit assigned aircraft you were thought to be
>>proficient in the airplane.
>>An example, in some units you had to have 500 hours to go cross country solo
>>vs
>>a two ship deployment with a qualified flight lead. BUT if they needed someone
>>to go XC to pickup some parts, the 500 hour requirement could/would be waived.
>>I don't know if the 500 number was an AF Reg or lower mandate.
>>
>>Rick Clark
>
> And, upon completion of 100 combat missions over North Vietnam (a tour
> that claimed 60% of those who started it), I amassed a total time for
> my Form 5 of 404.9 hours in the F-105--training and combat total.
>
> Of course, that allowed me to enter combat in the F-4 with 28 hours in
> the F-4C and ZERO flying time in the F-4E before my first combat
> mission over NVN.

Getting back to my still unanswered question, I'd have been satisfied with a
simple "I don't know" instead of the self-serving smoke. Thanks anyway. If you
were fishing for compliments, you were undoubtedly a hero and deserving of the
accolades that came your way, but I never questioned that and you didn't need to
defend yourself that way.

Unfortunately, I can't give you high marks for sticking to the subject; my
question and its answer had nothing to do with you or your experiences. You
still haven't told me if you knew why they asked for 500 hours for that
particular program or why they didn't accept 300 hours when, as you pointed out,
first of all, that they could have easily waived the 500 hour requirement and
then that they obviously didn't have a problem with tossing you into combat
without any time at all in the F-4E and only 28 hours in the F-4C.

I don't know about you but I have the impression that their requirements for
that program were probably unrealistically high and I can't help but wonder why
it was done that way. I don't have a clue....do you?

George Z.

[Tank Fixer]

In article >,
on 07 Sep 2004 20:27:26 GMT,
B2431 attempted to say .....

> >From: Tank Fixer
> >Date: 9/6/2004 11:26 PM Central Daylight Time
> >Message-id: >
> >
> >In article >,
> > on 05 Sep 2004 17:33:35 GMT,
> > ArtKramr attempted to say .....
> >
> >> Bush did that.
> >
> >Prove it
> >
>
> You have GOT to be kidding. Art would rather lie and slander his betters than
> provide proof. I define his "betters" as anyone who respects others who didn't
> have combat experience. It makes me think art didn't respect anyone in his own
> family.

I know, but I have to give him the chance.


--
When dealing with propaganda terminology one sometimes always speaks in
variable absolutes. This is not to be mistaken for an unbiased slant.