Russia Threatens to Strike Terror Bases

[Dav1936531]

This article seems to indicate that the US State Dept. is pressing a policy of
negotiations with the Chechnyan rebels. Ummmm...calling Colin Powell: Get a
clue!! There is no reason to negotiate with the murderers of school children.

I'm with Putin. Fire up the bombers and wipe the criminals out.

And while we're at it Vladamir, it might be time to reconsider that nuclear
reactor that you are building for the Iranians. The whole purpose is merely to
give the Iranians a reason to have a nuclear enrichment program so they can
make nuclear bombs under the guise of making reactor fuel. The Israelis are
going to attack it if something isn't done before the process comes online. And
seriously doubt that anyone in Russia proper wants Chechnyan rebels with nukes,
do they?
Dave

MOSCOW (Sept. 8) - Russia's top general threatened on Wednesday to strike
terrorists "in any region of the world," and the Kremlin offered a $10 million
reward for information leading to the killing or capture of Chechnya's top
rebel leaders.

Russian officials also expressed growing anger with critics of the Kremlin's
policy in Chechnya and criticized the United States for its willingness to hold
talks with Chechen separatists.

The announcements marked a show of resolve aimed at Russia's stunned citizens,
as well as Western countries President Vladimir Putin accuses of hindering its
fight against terror, in the wake of three attacks that killed more than 400
people in the past two weeks.

In a nationally televised meeting, Prosecutor-General Vladimir Ustinov also
briefed Putin on the investigation into the taking of more than 1,200 hostages
in a school last week in the southern town of Beslan.

His was the first official acknowledgment that the number of hostages had been
so high; the government initially said about 350 people were seized. A regional
official later said the number had been 1,181.

Col.-Gen. Yuri Baluyevsky, chief of the general staff of Russia's armed forces,
asserted Russia's right to strike terrorists beyond its borders.

"As for carrying out preventive strikes against terrorist bases ... we will
take all measures to liquidate terrorist bases in any region of the world," he
told reporters.

Baluyevsky made his comments alongside NATO's supreme allied commander in
Europe, Gen. James Jones, after talks on Russia-NATO military cooperation,
including anti-terror efforts.

European Union officials reacted cautiously to Baluyevsky's statements, with
spokeswoman Emma Udwin saying she could not be sure whether they represented
government policy. Udwin said the 25-nation EU is against "extra-judicial
killings" in form of pre-emptive strikes.

Russian leaders have previously claimed the right to attack terrorists beyond
the country's borders - tacitly threatening neighboring Georgia that Moscow
would pursue Chechen rebels allegedly sheltering on its territory. Two Russian
agents were convicted this year for the February car bombing in Qatar that
killed a Chechen rebel leader, Zelimkhan Yandarbiyev. Russia denied involvement
in the assassination.

The Bush administration also has a policy of pre-emptive military action
against terrorists.

NATO officials declined comment. The alliance released a statement with Russia
stressing both sides' "determination to strengthen and intensify common efforts
to fight the scourge of terrorism."

Nationalist lawmaker Dmitry Rogozin told Ekho Moskvy radio the warning appeared
to be an effort to ease fears of terrorism in Russia following the crashes of
two planes after explosions, a Moscow suicide bombing and the school seizure.

Anger over the school attack simmered in North Ossetia, the southern Russian
region bordering Chechnya mourning the deaths of hundreds of children, parents
and teachers.

Regional President Alexander Dzasokhov promised a furious crowd of 1,000 that
the local government would step down within two days and said he would follow
suit if he could not fulfill the protesters' demands for an independent inquiry
- the first sign of officials being punished for failing to prevent the attack.

Russia's Federal Security Service offered a reward of $10 million - its biggest
bounty ever - for information that could help "neutralize" Chechen rebel
leaders Shamil Basayev and Aslan Maskhadov, whom officials have accused of
masterminding last week's hostage crisis.

The agency said Basayev and Maskhadov have been responsible for "inhuman
terrorist acts on the territory of the Russian Federation."

Maskhadov, the former president of Chechnya, had denied any involvement in the
school standoff, according to aides. There has been no word from Basayev, a
longtime rebel warlord who had claimed involvement in bloody raids and
hostage-takings in the past.

Basayev is believed to be hiding in Chechnya; Russian officials have sometimes
reported that Maskhadov has left the country.

Ustinov said 326 hostages were killed and 727 wounded in the school attack,
which ended Friday in a wave of explosions and gunfire. North Ossetian Deputy
Health Minister Teimuraz Revazov later said 329 were confirmed dead.

Ustinov said 210 bodies had been identified, and forensic workers also were
trying to identify 32 body fragments.

His deputy, Sergei Fridinsky, said the bodies of 12 attackers had been
identified and that some had taken part in a deadly June attack in the
neighboring republic of Ingushetia, the Interfax news agency reported.

The authorities appeared to be backpedaling from their previous insistence on
describing the attack as the work of international terrorists. At a meeting
with visiting Western journalists and analysts Monday, Putin repeated
investigators' allegations that 10 of the attackers were of Arab descent and
denied that the hostage-taking was linked to Russia's policy in Chechnya.

However, Ustinov said nothing about Arabs in his briefing. Asked about the
silence, a Kremlin spokesman, Dmitry Peskov, told The Associated Press that
forensic experts were working to identify the terrorists "and until that work
is finished, it's impossible to tell."

"According to preliminary data, there were Arabs," he said. "No one is denying
the presence of Arabs."

Fridinsky also appeared to contradict Putin by saying the attackers' demands
were tied to the war in Chechnya.

"The demands concerned chiefly political motives and were related to the
anti-terrorist operation," he said, according to Interfax, using the
formulation Russian authorities use instead of war.

The global issue of terrorism drew Russia closer to the United States and other
Western nations following the Sept. 11 attacks, when Putin expressed support
for U.S. anti-terror efforts.

But since the attack in Beslan, Putin and other top officials have turned up
the volume on their accusations that Western nations apply double standards and
hinder Russia's fight against terrorism by questioning its policy in Chechnya.

Responding to a statement by State Department spokesman Richard Boucher,
Foreign Minister Sergey Lavrov said Wednesday that "we solve our internal
problems ourselves and there's no need to search for an American route to
political normalization in Chechnya," Interfax reported.

Foreign Ministry spokesman Alexander Yakovenko also lashed out at the United
States, saying talks with Chechens linked to rebel leaders are "absolutely
unacceptable."

"After all, we are talking about those individuals who stand behind bloody
attacks by terrorists in Russia, which have drawn the indignation of the entire
civilized word," Yakovenko said in a statement.

While joining condemnation of the school attack, the State Department said
Tuesday that Moscow ultimately must hold political talks with rebellious
Chechen leaders.

Wednesday's TV broadcast of Ustinov's briefing was the first attempt by the
government to give a formal account of the tragedy. The prosecutor said his
information was based on interviews with witnesses and the one alleged
attacker.

Ustinov said the approximately 30 attackers, including two women, had met in a
forest early Sept. 1 before heading to School No. 1 in Beslan in a truck and
two jeeps packed with weapons and ammunition.

People who had gathered to mark the first day of school were herded into the
gym by the militants, some of whom voiced objections to seizing a school.
Detainee Nur-Pashi Kulayev said the group's leader, who went by the name
Colonel, shot one of the militants and said he would do the same to any other
militants or hostages who did not show "unconditional obedience."

Later that day, he detonated the explosives worn by two female attackers,
killing them to enforce the lesson, Ustinov said.

One of the militants was stationed with his foot on a button that would set off
the explosives, Ustinov said; if he lifted his foot, the bombs strung up around
the school gymnasium would detonate, he said.

On Friday, the militants decided to change the arrangement of the explosives,
and they appear to have set off one bomb by mistake, Ustinov said. That sparked
panic as hostages tried to flee and the attackers opened fire.

09/08/04 19:27 EDT

[Denyav]

>seriously doubt that anyone in Russia proper wants Chechnyan rebels with
>nukes,
>do they?
>Dave

Nuclear tipped ICBMs are not very suitable weapons aganist terrorists ,but they
are excellent weapons to deter countries that use terrorists as proxies.
The recipients of Putins televised message is without any doubt are Anglos who
use Al-Queda and other so called islamic terrorists as proxies to realize their
domestic and foreign policy goals.

Putins message is only a lightly disguised way of saying to US "Stop Al-Queda
terrorism inside Russia,or else".

If they are really serious,I am pretty sure that so called islamic terrorism
will take a vacation in Russia.

[John Mullen]

"Denyav" > wrote in message
...
> >seriously doubt that anyone in Russia proper wants Chechnyan rebels with
>>nukes,
>>do they?
>>Dave
>
> Nuclear tipped ICBMs are not very suitable weapons aganist terrorists ,but
> they
> are excellent weapons to deter countries that use terrorists as proxies.
> The recipients of Putins televised message is without any doubt are Anglos
> who
> use Al-Queda and other so called islamic terrorists as proxies to realize
> their
> domestic and foreign policy goals.
>
> Putins message is only a lightly disguised way of saying to US "Stop
> Al-Queda
> terrorism inside Russia,or else".
>
> If they are really serious,I am pretty sure that so called islamic
> terrorism
> will take a vacation in Russia.

What nonsense!

John

[Dav1936531]

>From: (Denyav)
>
>
>Nuclear tipped ICBMs are not very suitable weapons aganist terrorists, but
they are excellent weapons to deter countries that use terrorists as proxies.
The recipients of Putins televised message is without any doubt are Anglos who
use Al-Queda and other so called islamic terrorists as proxies to realize their
domestic and foreign policy goals.
>
>Putins message is only a lightly disguised way of saying to US "Stop Al-Queda
terrorism inside Russia,or else".
>
>If they are really serious,I am pretty sure that so called islamic terrorism
will take a vacation in Russia.<

Putin doesn't seriously believe that the US is allied with Al-Qaeda in any way,
shape, or form.....does he? That is a paranoid delusion.

Maybe you didn't see the news of the 9-11 attacks. We are looking to kill Osama
bin Laden. Al-Qaeda and it affiliated groups are as much the enemies of the US
as they are the enemies of Russia. We have a common enemy and should cooperate
in its destruction.

I am appalled that our (the US) state department is apparently so far behind
the learning curve that it thinks negotiations with terrorists are some type of
acceptable solution.
Dave

[Denyav]

>What nonsense!
>

1)Al-Queda is a Proxy of US.period.
2)The role of Al-Queda in Russia is to destabilize Russia and pave way for the
resurrection of Brzezinkis long dead "Eurasia" plan.
3)US is not an Anglo country,but is an Anglo dominated country.
4)If US were an Anglo country like England,Pearl Harbor and 9/11 would NOT
happen.


"as America becomes an increasingly multicultural society,it may find it more
diffucult to fashion a consensus on foreign policy issues,EXCEPT in the
circumstances of truly massive and widely perceived direct external threat"

Zbigniew Brzezinski 1997



Some minorities use Republican Guards some use PSYOPs and terrorists.

[Denyav]

>Putin doesn't seriously believe that the US is allied with Al-Qaeda in any
>way,
>shape, or form.....does he? That is a paranoid delusion.

Really?

>Maybe you didn't see the news of the 9-11 attacks. We are looking to kill
>Osama
>bin Laden. Al-Qaeda and it affiliated groups are as much the enemies of the
>US

Looks are always deceiving,and nothing is so simple.
Do you know how WWII started?
With the attack of Polish Army !.
But those polish attackers were actualy Germans in polish uniform and ALL of
them were killed during attack by Germans in German uniform.

>they are the enemies of Russia. We have a common enemy and should cooperate
>in its destruction.

Is it not interesting that Al-Quade that conducted 9/11 attacks and made the
occupation of Iraq and Afghanistan possible is now targeting countries that
OPPOSE US occupation of Iraq ?

This a typical PSYOP exactly designed to produce the results you mentioned.


>I am appalled that our (the US) state department is apparently so far behind
>the learning curve that it thinks negotiations with terrorists are some type
>of
>acceptable solution.
>Dave

After Putin speech operation of Al-Queda terrorists inside Russia for purposes
of destablizing Russia will be very limited or totally eliminated.(unless
Anglos risk a nuclear exchange).
So instead of using terrorists for polirical goals,now more diplomatic and
globally acceptable methods will be used .

[Keith Willshaw]

"Dav1936531" > wrote in message
...
> >From: (Denyav)
> >
> >If they are really serious,I am pretty sure that so called islamic
terrorism
> will take a vacation in Russia.<
>
> Putin doesn't seriously believe that the US is allied with Al-Qaeda in any
way,
> shape, or form.....does he? That is a paranoid delusion.
>

But then Denyav is delusional.

This is the fellow that claims the Nazis gave the americans the
atomic bomb remember.





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[Denyav]

>But then Denyav is delusional.
>
>This is the fellow that claims the Nazis gave the americans the
>atomic bomb remember.

How Mr.Alvares learned how to "clean up some wires" at the virtually last
minute or how US uran production spiked in June 45?

Big lies dont last for forever Mr.Willshaw,75 years is enough for such lies.

BTW do you really think Putin and other russians are so dumb to threaten OBL
and other Kalashnikow toting terrorists with nuclear tipped ICBMs?

Intended recipient of his message is not Kalashnikow toting terrorists but
their owners.

As I said before I admire Great Game playing skills of Brits but it seems that
the russians are now saying "no Great Game anymore or else" basically.
Looks like they have learned how to stop Anglo agression from Mr.Philby

[B2431]

>From: "Keith Willshaw"
>Date: 9/9/2004 4:35 AM Central Daylight Time
>Message-id: >
>
>
>"Dav1936531" > wrote in message
...
>> >From: (Denyav)
>> >
>> >If they are really serious,I am pretty sure that so called islamic
>terrorism
>> will take a vacation in Russia.<
>>
>> Putin doesn't seriously believe that the US is allied with Al-Qaeda in any
>way,
>> shape, or form.....does he? That is a paranoid delusion.
>>
>
>But then Denyav is delusional.
>
>This is the fellow that claims the Nazis gave the americans the
>atomic bomb remember.

He also said the Nazis yested 2 atomic bombs and that the Russians had won in
Chechnya and all was quiet.

Dan, U.S. Air Force, retired

[Eunometic]

"John Mullen" > wrote in message >...
> "Denyav" > wrote in message
> ...
> > >seriously doubt that anyone in Russia proper wants Chechnyan rebels with
> >>nukes,
> >>do they?
> >>Dave
> >
> > Nuclear tipped ICBMs are not very suitable weapons aganist terrorists ,but
> > they
> > are excellent weapons to deter countries that use terrorists as proxies.
> > The recipients of Putins televised message is without any doubt are Anglos
> > who
> > use Al-Queda and other so called islamic terrorists as proxies to realize
> > their
> > domestic and foreign policy goals.
> >
> > Putins message is only a lightly disguised way of saying to US "Stop
> > Al-Queda
> > terrorism inside Russia,or else".
> >
> > If they are really serious,I am pretty sure that so called islamic
> > terrorism
> > will take a vacation in Russia.
>
> What nonsense!
>
> John

The US has a history of using islamic based insurgence as a wedge
against various European countries. The behaviour of the US during
the Yugoslave/Bosnian/Kosovo issues was highly pro-islamic, clearly
calculated to win favour in the middle east for the US oil interests
and zionist sympathies while snuffing out any possible rival post
eastern block alignments based on slavic ethniticities, orthodox
christianity. This was despite the fact that the former yugoslave
people were facing unprovoked terrorism, drug running, kidnapping and
murder in Kosovo. It was merely necessary to reframe sincere
anti-terrorism measures and the civil conflct as 'ethnic cleansing'
and 'genocide' (such crimes did occur but at a miniscule fraction of
the agit-prop propagandised rate and only AFTER NATO bombing reduced
the situation to disroder: the crimes also clearly weren't one sided)

[stop spam]

Eunometic wrote:
> The US has a history of using islamic based insurgence as a wedge
> against various European countries.

Any proof to this absurd claim? The one you tried to use below doesn't fly.

> The behaviour of the US during the Yugoslave/Bosnian/Kosovo issues

The US came in because the Europeans had allowed, through their own
inaction, a local mess to become so bad they couldn't handle it
themselves. The Europeans were very upset to find out their local
militaries were incapable of doing much of anything, and perhaps there
was a good reason after all for the US's defense budget.

If this is the type of thanks the US receives after it was invited in by
the Europeans to clean up their own mess in their back yard, then
perhaps next time we'll let you go it alone.

[Keith Willshaw]

"Eunometic" > wrote in message
om...

>
> The US has a history of using islamic based insurgence as a wedge
> against various European countries. The behaviour of the US during
> the Yugoslave/Bosnian/Kosovo issues was highly pro-islamic, clearly
> calculated to win favour in the middle east for the US oil interests

Utter tosh

The USA was initially reluctant in both cases to get involved and
the first country to recognise Bosnian independence
was Germany

Keith

[Denyav]

>He also said the Nazis yested 2 atomic bombs and that the Russians had won in
>Chechnya and all was quiet.
>

If you have any doubts about German nuclear bombs you must ask yourself only 2
questions:
1) How Dr.Alvares learned "how to clean up some wires" at the literally last
moment?

2)Why and how US uran production spiked in June 45?

Germany nuclear technology was till occupation in April 2 years ahead of Anglo
technology and Anglo bosses were aware of this.
And that was the real reason why Anglos needed Normandy landings.

Heck the German nuclear technology which supposed to be used by Japanase
aganist advancing Americans used by Americans aganist retreating Japanase.

Regarding Checnya: I did not post anything about Chechnya , much less said that
Russians had won.

[[email protected]]

On 9 Sep 2004 13:44:10 -0700, (Eunometic)
wrote:


>The US has a history of using islamic based insurgence as a wedge
>against various European countries. The behaviour of the US during
>the Yugoslave/Bosnian/Kosovo issues was highly pro-islamic,

So you think the Serbs had a right to just kill and expell all the
muslims in Kosovo?

You are sick.

If that is your history of "using islamic based insurgence as a
wedge," you are also laughably pathetic.

[John Mullen]

"Denyav" > wrote in message
...
> >He also said the Nazis yested 2 atomic bombs and that the Russians had
> >won in
>>Chechnya and all was quiet.
>>

snip

> Germany nuclear technology was till occupation in April 2 years ahead of
> Anglo
> technology and Anglo bosses were aware of this.
> And that was the real reason why Anglos needed Normandy landings.

This is pure fantasy.

> Heck the German nuclear technology which supposed to be used by Japanase
> aganist advancing Americans used by Americans aganist retreating Japanase.

It is just possible that a small amount of captured German fissile material
was used against Japan.

John

[Denyav]

>This is pure fantasy.
>
Why Eisenhover in his book "Crusade in Europa" stated that if the occupation of
Germany delayed only by a couple of months,mankind would have faced its
biggest disaster.
Dont forget Germany was practically defeated in 1942 and in 1945 Wehrmacht
could find only kids and senior citizens to fill its ranks.
So how could such badly defeated country present such a gigantic danger if
allies were late only by a couple of months?.
Answer was Third Reichs S-weapons program which included nuclear weapons.

With exception of SS own nuclear program Anglo management was aware of every
development in third reich,including the achivements of von Ardenne/Houtermanns
and Diebner teams.
So they with exception of SS work had an excellent picture of German research
and they concluded that the Germans were two years ahead of Manhattan Project
and the gap was was widening.
So D-Day was the only way to prevent Germany becoming worlds first and sole
nuclear power.

>It is just possible that a small amount of captured German fissile material
>was used against Japan.

Not a small amount ,the enriched uran production spike that you can see in June
45,is solely due German stocks.

Situation of Manhattan Project in April was totally hopeless,they could build
an Uran bomb but there was no Uran for that and it was impossible to produce
enough Uran till bomb deadline,on other hand they had enough plutonium for a
pluto bomb but they were unable to design an igniter for that.
So they had basically an Uran bomb without uran and a plutonium bomb without
igniter !.
Their worst nighmare became a reality in the spring of 45 .
But everything changed almost overnight with occupation of Germany and the
arrival of U-234

>This is pure fantasy.

No only the least known fact,if u-234 completed her voyage, Japan would become
worlds second nuclear power not US.

[John Mullen]

"Denyav" > wrote in message
...
> >This is pure fantasy.
>>
> Why Eisenhover in his book "Crusade in Europa" stated that if the
> occupation of
> Germany delayed only by a couple of months,mankind would have faced its
> biggest disaster.
> Dont forget Germany was practically defeated in 1942

Not at all! In 1942 the tide was just beginning to turn against Germany. Far
from 'practcally defeated'

> and in 1945 Wehrmacht
> could find only kids and senior citizens to fill its ranks.
> So how could such badly defeated country present such a gigantic danger
> if
> allies were late only by a couple of months?.
> Answer was Third Reichs S-weapons program which included nuclear weapons.

Your problem seems to be that you cannot distinguish between plans and
realities. We all know about all the wonderful weapons that the different
branches of the Third Reich had *planned*.

In reality, they struggled. This was the regime that never launched an
aircraft carrier, and never built a convincing four-engined bomber. Whose
leader fiddled away the days while his empire collapsed, sketching designs
for post-war architectural projects.

It was more excusable for Eisenhower to proceed on worst-case assumptions
about the German nuclear programme in 1944 than it is for you to believe it
60 years later, when 60 years of research have failed to come up with any
evidence at all for the things you are saying.

> With exception of SS own nuclear program Anglo management was aware of
> every
> development in third reich,including the achivements of von
> Ardenne/Houtermanns
> and Diebner teams.
> So they with exception of SS work had an excellent picture of German
> research
> and they concluded that the Germans were two years ahead of Manhattan
> Project
> and the gap was was widening.
> So D-Day was the only way to prevent Germany becoming worlds first and
> sole
> nuclear power.
>
>>It is just possible that a small amount of captured German fissile
>>material
>>was used against Japan.
>
> Not a small amount ,the enriched uran production spike that you can see in
> June
> 45,is solely due German stocks.
>
> Situation of Manhattan Project in April was totally hopeless,they could
> build
> an Uran bomb but there was no Uran for that and it was impossible to
> produce
> enough Uran till bomb deadline,on other hand they had enough plutonium for
> a
> pluto bomb but they were unable to design an igniter for that.
> So they had basically an Uran bomb without uran and a plutonium bomb
> without
> igniter !.

What is an igniter?

> Their worst nighmare became a reality in the spring of 45 .
> But everything changed almost overnight with occupation of Germany and the
> arrival of U-234
>
>>This is pure fantasy.
>
> No only the least known fact,if u-234 completed her voyage, Japan would
> become
> worlds second nuclear power not US.

How would they have done that without the know-how they and the Nazis
lacked? Are we to assume that both the Japanese and the Germans possessed
the ability to make an 'igniter' (whatever that is) and yet the Americans
did not?

Denyav, believe me, I like a good conspiracy theory as much as anyone. But
where is your actual evidence for these beliefs?

And please don't say it depends on secret papers which only you or a man you
met in a pub have access to!

John

[Keith Willshaw]

"John Mullen" > wrote in message
...
> "Denyav" > wrote in message

>
> And please don't say it depends on secret papers which only you or a man
> you met in a pub have access to!
>
> John
>

Aw now you have called his bluff.

Keith

[Denyav]

>Not at all! In 1942 the tide was just beginning to turn against Germany. Far
>from 'practcally defeated'

Unlike Anglo led global alliance that had almost unlimited material and human
resources,Germans had exteremely small resources,so when their advances were
stopped or even slowed down only,they were basically defeated,they had no
resources to fight a prolonged war.

>Your problem seems to be that you cannot distinguish between plans and
>realities. We all know about all the wonderful weapons that the different
>branches of the Third Reich had *planned*.

Why Anglos did not and do not dispute the fact that,for example,Me262 and V-2
were developed by germans during the war?
Because they were widely used during war and their existence was witnessed by
the thousands of allied military personnel and civilians.
I am pretty sure if they were not widely used during war and Anglos found only
a couple of Me262 and V-2s in top secret underground production facilities,we
would now be discussing whether Germans were able to develop fighter jets and
ballistic missiles during WWII.

Actually nuclear technology transfer from Germany to Anglo countries during
last days of WWII and after WWII actually represented the low-end of the
technology stolen from Germany.

Other "wonderful weapons" that 3rd Reich planned became the basis for the
advanced weapons US "developed" within last 60 years.
Lets remember for the technology transfer you dont need always a component
transfer,document transfer is many times sufficent.


>In reality, they struggled. This was the regime that never launched an
>aircraft carrier, and never built a convincing four-engined bomber. Whose
>leader fiddled away the days while his empire collapsed, sketching designs
>for post-war architectural projects

There was NO conventional aircraft,aircraft carrier,submarine or tank project
of 3rd Reich among S-Projects.

During his visit to Klein-Machow facility in fall 44 Hitler was not even
allowed to take his adjutant and personal bodyguard with him into the
facility,much less fiddling with S-projects.

>It was more excusable for Eisenhower to proceed on worst-case assumptions
>about the German nuclear programme in 1944 than it is for you to believe it

Since Ike is not alive now we cannot ask him why he wrote down that statement.

>0 years later, when 60 years of research have failed to come up with any
>evidence at all for the things you are saying.
>

What world heard in last 60 years was the story that victorious Anglos needed
world to hear nothing else.

>What is an igniter?
>
Triggering device that Dr.Alvares after inspecting U-234 cargo and debriefing
U234s scientific passenger Dr.Schlicke made to work at the virtually last
minute by "cleaning up some wires".
(He was,like other MP scientists, unable to come up with working igniter
design in previous 18 months,but never mind!)

>How would they have done that without the know-how they and the Nazis
>lacked? Are we to assume that both the Japanese and the Germans possessed
>the ability to make an 'igniter' (whatever that is) and yet the Americans
>did not?

Japanase know how were coming from Germany.
Unlike Von Ardenne/Houtermans group that recognized igniter problem at very
early stage and started developing suitable igniter designs in late
41,Manhattan Project scientists recognized that problem very late and that was
one of the major blunders of MP.
So while Germans perfected their design,Manhattan Project was still trying to
design one.period.
German igniter was so excellent that yield of tested plutonium bomb exceeded
even best predictions of Manhattan Project scientists by a big margin.

>Denyav, believe me, I like a good conspiracy theory as much as anyone. But
>where is your actual evidence for these beliefs?

One thing we all know exactly is that all documents regarding this issue is
classified for 75 years,inlcluding the log of the "regular" US army division
that occupied one of the German nuclear development sites.
So you must check the.correspondence between Anglo management to find first
clues.

1)In March 45 powerful senators asking for the termination of Manhattan project
because there was no way that they can produce bomb bt the deadline.
2)Even Manhattan projects top scientists predicted in early 45 that not enough
uran will be available for the bomb.
3)Everthing went according to the their predictions till June but in June an
unpredicted miracle happened.Uran production spiked !.
4)Groves and Anglo management tried to explain this spike in production but in
close examination everything he said failed explain the spike.So where did the
extra Uran come from? From outer space maybe?

5)Igniter story is even more ridicilous.
We know that Manhattan Project recognized igniter problem very late and tried
for 18 months to produce a working igniter design in vain.
So Manhattan Project scientists main concern was not even the success of
Plutonium bomb test but was how to collect precious plutonium from the test
area after failed test.
So they were pretty sure that igniter wont work.
But test was a great success,the yield of the bomb exceeded even most
optimistic expectations of Manhattan Projecters by a great margin.
How Manhattan Project scientists made a such big prediction errror?
Well in closer examination you will learn that this "excellent" igniter arrived
only hours before actual test date and was "designed" by Dr.Alvares (later
Nobel laurate).
Problem is Dr.Alvares was trying to design an igniter for last 18 months
without success,so how he came up with a revolutionary design at the virtually
last minute?
What Anglo management did not tell the world is that Dr.Alvares was the man who
inspected U-234 cargo and debriefed Dr.Schlicke and Dr.Schlicke's duty was to
help Japanese to assemble the bomb.period.

After war Dr.Alvares always tried to dodge questions about igniter development
for 40 years.
When he was asked how he developed an excellent igniter and saved US nuclear
program.
His answer was always enlightening,"Well,I cleaned up some wires"
I am sure his answer did not make von Ardenne happy.

[Denyav]

>Aw now you have called his bluff.
>
>Keith
>

Sorry,Mr.Willshaw but is 75 years not enough?

[B2431]

>From: "John Mullen"
>

>In reality, they struggled. This was the regime that never launched an
>aircraft carrier, and never built a convincing four-engined bomber.

Not to be too picky here, but the Nazis launched the Graf Zeppelin in 1938 and
started on "Carrier B." I don't know off the top of my head how far tthey got
on Carrier B. In any event it was scrapped in 1940. The Graf Zeppelin was
scuttled in April 1945. The Soviets raised it after the war and attempted to
tow it to Leningrad. It never made it.

It displaced 23,000 tons and was to have been armed with modified Ju87 and
Me109 aircraft.

Raeder want the aircraft carrier, Goering didn't and Doenitz preferred
submarines.

It would be interesting to see what 2 carrier based task forces, assuming one
carrier each, would have had on the outcome of the war. Had they existed before
the war the Brits would have had to provideair cover in areas they didn't need
to as was the case in the real war . I think very little commerce would have
gotten through from the US.

This is where denyev tells us the Graf Zeppelin was nuclear powered using a
sytem designed by the SS. This is also where art tells us the boat didn't exist
because I wasn't there, read about it in a book and he never saw it.

Dan, U.S. Air Force, retired

[B2431]

>From: (Denyav)
>Date: 9/12/2004 12:57 PM Central Daylight Time
>Message-id: >
>
>>Aw now you have called his bluff.
>>
>>Keith
>>
>
>Sorry,Mr.Willshaw but is 75 years not enough?

Your Nazi regime wasn't in power 75 years ago.

Dan, U.S. Air Force, retired

[B2431]

>From: (Denyav)
>Date: 9/12/2004 12:55 PM Central Daylight Time
>Message-id: >
>
>>Not at all! In 1942 the tide was just beginning to turn against Germany. Far
>
>>from 'practcally defeated'
>
>Unlike Anglo led global alliance that had almost unlimited material and human
>resources,Germans had exteremely small resources,so when their advances were
>stopped or even slowed down only,they were basically defeated,they had no
>resources to fight a prolonged war.
>
>>Your problem seems to be that you cannot distinguish between plans and
>>realities. We all know about all the wonderful weapons that the different
>>branches of the Third Reich had *planned*.
>
>Why Anglos did not and do not dispute the fact that,for example,Me262 and
>V-2
>were developed by germans during the war?
>Because they were widely used during war and their existence was witnessed by
>the thousands of allied military personnel and civilians.
>I am pretty sure if they were not widely used during war and Anglos found
>only
>a couple of Me262 and V-2s in top secret underground production facilities,we
>would now be discussing whether Germans were able to develop fighter jets and
>ballistic missiles during WWII.
>
>Actually nuclear technology transfer from Germany to Anglo countries during
>last days of WWII and after WWII actually represented the low-end of the
>technology stolen from Germany.
>
>Other "wonderful weapons" that 3rd Reich planned became the basis for the
>advanced weapons US "developed" within last 60 years.
>Lets remember for the technology transfer you dont need always a component
>transfer,document transfer is many times sufficent.
>
>
>>In reality, they struggled. This was the regime that never launched an
>>aircraft carrier, and never built a convincing four-engined bomber. Whose
>>leader fiddled away the days while his empire collapsed, sketching designs
>>for post-war architectural projects
>
>There was NO conventional aircraft,aircraft carrier,submarine or tank project
>of 3rd Reich among S-Projects.
>
>During his visit to Klein-Machow facility in fall 44 Hitler was not even
>allowed to take his adjutant and personal bodyguard with him into the
>facility,much less fiddling with S-projects.
>
>>It was more excusable for Eisenhower to proceed on worst-case assumptions
>>about the German nuclear programme in 1944 than it is for you to believe it
>
>Since Ike is not alive now we cannot ask him why he wrote down that
>statement.
>
>>0 years later, when 60 years of research have failed to come up with any
>>evidence at all for the things you are saying.
>>
>
>What world heard in last 60 years was the story that victorious Anglos needed
>world to hear nothing else.
>
>>What is an igniter?
>>
>Triggering device that Dr.Alvares after inspecting U-234 cargo and debriefing
>U234s scientific passenger Dr.Schlicke made to work at the virtually last
>minute by "cleaning up some wires".
>(He was,like other MP scientists, unable to come up with working igniter
>design in previous 18 months,but never mind!)
>
>>How would they have done that without the know-how they and the Nazis
>>lacked? Are we to assume that both the Japanese and the Germans possessed
>>the ability to make an 'igniter' (whatever that is) and yet the Americans
>>did not?
>
>Japanase know how were coming from Germany.
>Unlike Von Ardenne/Houtermans group that recognized igniter problem at very
>early stage and started developing suitable igniter designs in late
>41,Manhattan Project scientists recognized that problem very late and that
>was
>one of the major blunders of MP.
>So while Germans perfected their design,Manhattan Project was still trying to
>design one.period.
>German igniter was so excellent that yield of tested plutonium bomb exceeded
>even best predictions of Manhattan Project scientists by a big margin.
>
>>Denyav, believe me, I like a good conspiracy theory as much as anyone. But
>>where is your actual evidence for these beliefs?
>
>One thing we all know exactly is that all documents regarding this issue is
>classified for 75 years,inlcluding the log of the "regular" US army division
>that occupied one of the German nuclear development sites.
>So you must check the.correspondence between Anglo management to find first
>clues.
>
>1)In March 45 powerful senators asking for the termination of Manhattan
>project
>because there was no way that they can produce bomb bt the deadline.
>2)Even Manhattan projects top scientists predicted in early 45 that not
>enough
>uran will be available for the bomb.
>3)Everthing went according to the their predictions till June but in June an
>unpredicted miracle happened.Uran production spiked !.
>4)Groves and Anglo management tried to explain this spike in production but
>in
>close examination everything he said failed explain the spike.So where did
>the
>extra Uran come from? From outer space maybe?
>
>5)Igniter story is even more ridicilous.
>We know that Manhattan Project recognized igniter problem very late and tried
>for 18 months to produce a working igniter design in vain.
>So Manhattan Project scientists main concern was not even the success of
>Plutonium bomb test but was how to collect precious plutonium from the test
>area after failed test.
>So they were pretty sure that igniter wont work.
>But test was a great success,the yield of the bomb exceeded even most
>optimistic expectations of Manhattan Projecters by a great margin.
>How Manhattan Project scientists made a such big prediction errror?
>Well in closer examination you will learn that this "excellent" igniter
>arrived
>only hours before actual test date and was "designed" by Dr.Alvares (later
>Nobel laurate).
>Problem is Dr.Alvares was trying to design an igniter for last 18 months
>without success,so how he came up with a revolutionary design at the
>virtually
>last minute?
>What Anglo management did not tell the world is that Dr.Alvares was the man
>who
>inspected U-234 cargo and debriefed Dr.Schlicke and Dr.Schlicke's duty was to
>help Japanese to assemble the bomb.period.
>
>After war Dr.Alvares always tried to dodge questions about igniter
>development
>for 40 years.
>When he was asked how he developed an excellent igniter and saved US nuclear
>program.
>His answer was always enlightening,"Well,I cleaned up some wires"
>I am sure his answer did not make von Ardenne happy.

OK, I ask you again, besides what you and the other Nazi teuton have said about
this and other projects have you any verifiable proof from a source other than
UFO sites? You keep telling us about "classified for 75 years" information only
you and teuton know about and how the Nazis manage to detonate 2 atomic bombs
without anyone noticing or anyone involved writing about it. Any idea when you
intend to provide verifiable proof?

Dan, U.S. Air Force, retired

[Guy Alcala]

B2431 wrote:

<snip>

> It would be interesting to see what 2 carrier based task forces, assuming one
> carrier each, would have had on the outcome of the war. Had they existed before
> the war the Brits would have had to provideair cover in areas they didn't need
> to as was the case in the real war . I think very little commerce would have
> gotten through from the US.

Man, do you want to go over to sci.military.naval (or rather Google Groups so you
can catch up) and read the current thread "WI: Graf Zeppelin was commissioned";
there's close on 180 messages so far, analyzing the effect, british countermoves,
production capacities, air group training, etc. ;-) Oh, and "A Different Z plan"
might also be of interest.

Guy

[Bill Negraeff]

(Dav1936531) wrote in message >...
> >From: (Denyav)
> >
> >
> >Nuclear tipped ICBMs are not very suitable weapons aganist terrorists, but
> they are excellent weapons to deter countries that use terrorists as proxies.
> The recipients of Putins televised message is without any doubt are Anglos who
> use Al-Queda and other so called islamic terrorists as proxies to realize their
> domestic and foreign policy goals.
> >
> >Putins message is only a lightly disguised way of saying to US "Stop Al-Queda
> terrorism inside Russia,or else".
> >
> >If they are really serious,I am pretty sure that so called islamic terrorism
> will take a vacation in Russia.<
>
> Putin doesn't seriously believe that the US is allied with Al-Qaeda in any way,
> shape, or form.....does he? That is a paranoid delusion.

Depends on your perspective. How stupid was it for the US to ally
themselves with the Mujehedin against a moderate and secular Afghan
government simply because that government had strong Soviet ties?
Anybody who viewed that conflict from the Soviet perspective is
excused for thinking that the US is capable of such a strange
alliance. At the same time that the US fought Islamic fundamentalism
in Iran they were supporting it in Afghanistan.

Do you think the great "sovietologist" Condoleeza Rice is living
completely in the here and now?

>
> Maybe you didn't see the news of the 9-11 attacks. We are looking to kill Osama
> bin Laden. Al-Qaeda and it affiliated groups are as much the enemies of the US
> as they are the enemies of Russia. We have a common enemy and should cooperate
> in its destruction.
>
> I am appalled that our (the US) state department is apparently so far behind
> the learning curve that it thinks negotiations with terrorists are some type of
> acceptable solution.
> Dave

[John Mullen]

"Guy Alcala" > wrote in message
. ..
> B2431 wrote:
>
> <snip>
>
>> It would be interesting to see what 2 carrier based task forces, assuming
>> one
>> carrier each, would have had on the outcome of the war. Had they existed
>> before
>> the war the Brits would have had to provideair cover in areas they didn't
>> need
>> to as was the case in the real war . I think very little commerce would
>> have
>> gotten through from the US.
>
> Man, do you want to go over to sci.military.naval (or rather Google Groups
> so you
> can catch up) and read the current thread "WI: Graf Zeppelin was
> commissioned";
> there's close on 180 messages so far, analyzing the effect, british
> countermoves,
> production capacities, air group training, etc. ;-) Oh, and "A Different
> Z plan"
> might also be of interest.

Thanks, gentelemen, for your corrections.

What I should have said was of course:

"This was the regime that never *deployed* an
aircraft carrier..."

Comes to the same thing really; actually, like a lot of their later high-tec
weaponry, it was a negative asset as it must have absorbed a lot of
resources that could otherwise have been used better elsewhere.

John

[John Mullen]

"Bill Negraeff" > wrote in message
om...
> (Dav1936531) wrote in message
> >...
>> >From: (Denyav)
>> >


> Do you think the great "sovietologist" Condoleeza Rice is living
> completely in the here and now?

OT I know, but has anyone else on the NG enjoyed Steve Earle's great song
about Mz Rice on his new album? If not, do.

John

[Denyav]

>OK, I ask you again, besides what you and the other Nazi teuton have said
>about
>this and other projects have you any verifiable proof from a source other
>than
>UFO sites? You keep telling us about "classified for 75 years" information
>only
>you and teuton know about and

Well,the term UFO has been invented in US AFTER the occupation of Germany alone
this fact should make you a little bit suspicious.

The term used by Kammlers SS advanced weapons research and development
directorate for such craft was SFOs (SonderFlugObjecten) not UFOs.

Regarding classification of documents by Anglos and the lies told by Anglos
there is a direct correlation as classification widely used to cover lies.
One of the best examples of this is the lies of Gen.Groves.
Gen.Groves attemped to explain sudden and unpredicted spike in US u-235
production in June 45 with improvements in uran production process.
Even during hey days of Groves, his explanation met with remarkable sceptism
from experts.
But nobody could prove that he was lying,because total and plantwise u-235
production figures were among Americas best kept secrets.
Now thanks to DOEs openness policy in 90s we all know that US production really
spiked in June 45 but none of US facilities was responsible for the spike.
Groves,knowing that the crucial information will remain classified during his
lifetime,did not bother to to tell lies to public.
Thats the way how world famous Anglo pragmatism works.



>how the Nazis manage to detonate 2 atomic bombs
>without anyone noticing or anyone involved writing about it. Any idea when
>you
>intend to provide verifiable proof?

Both test were witnessed by hundreds of people second test on March 4 even by
thousands of people,including almost whole populations of small towns near test
site and even by an USAAF aircrew.

Some of eyewitnesses have even appeared in TV programs in Germany and described
what they saw on March 4.
All eyewitnesses also said that the town people were interviewed by Americans
(and later by Soviets) about the events of March 4,but interestingly there is
no record of such interviews in declassified US archives.

[Denyav]

>Your Nazi regime wasn't in power 75 years ago.

First of all Anglos made the arrangements with Kammler,another perfect example
of famous Anglo pragmatism.
It was also the Anglos who put all documents connected with German advanced
weapons development under lock for 75 years.

[B2431]

>From: (Denyav)
>Date: 9/13/2004 1:48 PM Central Daylight Time
>Message-id: >
>
>>OK, I ask you again, besides what you and the other Nazi teuton have said
>>about
>>this and other projects have you any verifiable proof from a source other
>>than
>>UFO sites? You keep telling us about "classified for 75 years" information
>>only
>>you and teuton know about and
>
>Well,the term UFO has been invented in US AFTER the occupation of Germany
>alone
>this fact should make you a little bit suspicious.
>
>The term used by Kammlers SS advanced weapons research and development
>directorate for such craft was SFOs (SonderFlugObjecten) not UFOs.
>
>Regarding classification of documents by Anglos and the lies told by Anglos
>there is a direct correlation as classification widely used to cover lies.
>One of the best examples of this is the lies of Gen.Groves.
>Gen.Groves attemped to explain sudden and unpredicted spike in US u-235
>production in June 45 with improvements in uran production process.
>Even during hey days of Groves, his explanation met with remarkable sceptism
>from experts.
>But nobody could prove that he was lying,because total and plantwise u-235
>production figures were among Americas best kept secrets.
>Now thanks to DOEs openness policy in 90s we all know that US production
>really
>spiked in June 45 but none of US facilities was responsible for the spike.
>Groves,knowing that the crucial information will remain classified during his
>lifetime,did not bother to to tell lies to public.
>Thats the way how world famous Anglo pragmatism works.
>
>
>
>>how the Nazis manage to detonate 2 atomic bombs
>>without anyone noticing or anyone involved writing about it. Any idea when
>>you
>>intend to provide verifiable proof?
>
>Both test were witnessed by hundreds of people second test on March 4 even by
>thousands of people,including almost whole populations of small towns near
>test
>site and even by an USAAF aircrew.
>
>Some of eyewitnesses have even appeared in TV programs in Germany and
>described
>what they saw on March 4.
>All eyewitnesses also said that the town people were interviewed by Americans
>(and later by Soviets) about the events of March 4,but interestingly there
>is
>no record of such interviews in declassified US archives.

And just where can we find independent proof of your claims?

You have yet to provide any verifiable sources.

What USAAF crew, what were they flying, what unit?

Dan, U.S. Air Force, retired

[denyav]

> >
> > Putin doesn't seriously believe that the US is allied with Al-Qaeda in any way,
> > shape, or form.....does he? That is a paranoid delusion.
>
> Depends on your perspective. How stupid was it for the US to ally
> themselves with the Mujehedin against a moderate and secular Afghan
> government simply because that government had strong Soviet ties?
> Anybody who viewed that conflict from the Soviet perspective is
> excused for thinking that the US is capable of such a strange
> alliance. At the same time that the US fought Islamic fundamentalism
> in Iran they were supporting it in Afghanistan.
>
> Do you think the great "sovietologist" Condoleeza Rice is living
> completely in the here and now?
>
> >

Well,acc.to BBC translation service Putin said the following:

"Some want to cut off a juicy morsel from us while others are helping
them.
They are helping because they believe that,as one of the worlds MAJOR
nuclear powers,Russia is STILL posing a threat to SOMEONE and this and
this threat must be removed.
And Terrorism is,of course,only a TOOL for achieving these goals".


Apparently Putin,an ex-spymaster, and Russians know very well who is
behind AQ and so called Islamic Terrorism.

[OXMORON1]

Dan asked about UFO sightings:
>And just where can we find independent proof of your claims?
>
>You have yet to provide any verifiable sources.
>
>What USAAF crew, what were they flying, what unit?
>

Jeeze Dan, you ahd to ask? Of course it was a Martin B-26 crew, want to guess
who the bombtoggler was?

Rick
MFE

[B2431]

>From: (OXMORON1)
>Date: 9/13/2004 2:40 PM Central Daylight Time
>Message-id: >
>
>Dan asked about UFO sightings:
>>And just where can we find independent proof of your claims?
>>
>>You have yet to provide any verifiable sources.
>>
>>What USAAF crew, what were they flying, what unit?
>>
>
>Jeeze Dan, you ahd to ask? Of course it was a Martin B-26 crew, want to guess
>who the bombtoggler was?
>
>Rick
>MFE

Now THAT was cruel <g>

Dan, U.S. Air Force, retired

[Eunometic]

stop spam > wrote in message >...
> Eunometic wrote:
> > The US has a history of using islamic based insurgence as a wedge
> > against various European countries.
>
> Any proof to this absurd claim? The one you tried to use below doesn't fly.
>
> > The behaviour of the US during the Yugoslave/Bosnian/Kosovo issues
>
> The US came in because the Europeans had allowed, through their own
> inaction, a local mess to become so bad they couldn't handle it
> themselves. The Europeans were very upset to find out their local
> militaries were incapable of doing much of anything, and perhaps there
> was a good reason after all for the US's defense budget.
>
> If this is the type of thanks the US receives after it was invited in by
> the Europeans to clean up their own mess in their back yard, then
> perhaps next time we'll let you go it alone.

That would be another one of those "invitations" that were preceded by
intense lobbying and pressure.

The US was chumping at the bit to have a go at a military intervention
and at the time was following a policy of agitating its Allies to take
more responsibillity globally (ie spend more money to unburden the US)
in implementing what was US policy anyway.

I don't see that ANY western european, US or NATO involvement was
required at all. It was confined to being a civil war that would most
likely have ended in dissolution of Yugoslavia along slightly
different (and better borders). It did not threaten neightbouring
countries and flows of refugees could be handled by population
transfers within the borders of the former Yugoslavia. It was far less
bloody than the butcherous American Civil war. What it seems to have
boiled down to is an unjustified intervention on vastly exaggerated
human rights grounds that was really about appeasing the muslim
populations in the Middle East and Turkey for strategic reasons.
There are in my opinion more people dead becuase of NATO intervention
than without it.

[B2431]

>From: (Denyav)
>Date: 9/13/2004 1:56 PM Central Daylight Time
>Message-id: >
>
>>Your Nazi regime wasn't in power 75 years ago.
>
>First of all Anglos made the arrangements with Kammler,another perfect
>example
>of famous Anglo pragmatism.
>It was also the Anglos who put all documents connected with German advanced
>weapons development under lock for 75 years.

Why is it you have never provided verifiable proof of any of your claims?

Dan, U.S. Air Force, retired

[Denyav]

>Why is it you have never provided verifiable proof of any of your claims?
>

Why and how US uran production spiked suddenly and unexpectedly in June 45?
This is easily verifiable after DOE documents declassified in 90s.
You can easily prove that the extra Uran did not come from US sources.
So if this extra Uran did not come from Germany,where did it come from then?

How Dr.Alvares who was unable to design even one working ignitor for plutonium
bomb for 18 months,designed an excellent ignitor at the virtually last minute
after he inspected U-234 cargo and debriefed Dr.Schlicke,the scientific
passenger of U-234?

The Manhattan Project was the worst and most costly Anglo blunder of WWII,it
meant also a humiliation for Anglos because Germans left Anglos behind by using
only one fifth of scientific workforce.
(Germans used only one fifth of scientific personel used by MP to accomplish
identical tasks),and that was the manifestation of the superiority of Central
European Culture over more pragmatic and rentier oriented Anglo culture.

That was the main reason why German achievements during WW II needed to be
suppressed for almost one century after WWII..

[nobody]

Denyav wrote:

> How Dr.Alvares who was unable to design even one working ignitor for plutonium
> bomb for 18 months,designed an excellent ignitor at the virtually last minute
> after he inspected U-234 cargo and debriefed Dr.Schlicke,the scientific
> passenger of U-234?
>

1945.1 (= Jan 1945) [U. S. A.] An ignition device for implosion
completed by Luis W. Alvarez.
http://www.ask.ne.jp/~hankaku/english/np7y.html

That was some 4 months before the U-234 episode.

[B2431]

>From: (Denyav)
>Date: 9/14/2004 11:53 AM Central Daylight Time
>Message-id: >
>
>>Why is it you have never provided verifiable proof of any of your claims?
>>
>
>Why and how US uran production spiked suddenly and unexpectedly in June 45?
>This is easily verifiable after DOE documents declassified in 90s.
>You can easily prove that the extra Uran did not come from US sources.
>So if this extra Uran did not come from Germany,where did it come from then?
>
>How Dr.Alvares who was unable to design even one working ignitor for
>plutonium
>bomb for 18 months,designed an excellent ignitor at the virtually last minute
>after he inspected U-234 cargo and debriefed Dr.Schlicke,the scientific
>passenger of U-234?
>
>The Manhattan Project was the worst and most costly Anglo blunder of WWII,it
>meant also a humiliation for Anglos because Germans left Anglos behind by
>using
>only one fifth of scientific workforce.
>(Germans used only one fifth of scientific personel used by MP to accomplish
>identical tasks),and that was the manifestation of the superiority of Central
>European Culture over more pragmatic and rentier oriented Anglo culture.
>
>That was the main reason why German achievements during WW II needed to be
>suppressed for almost one century after WWII..


You are repeating yourself without providing any proof.

Dan, U.S. Air Force, retired

[Denyav]

>You are repeating yourself without providing any proof.
>
>Dan, U.S. Air Force, retired

And you are repeating yourself without even checking recently released DOE
documents.
1)Where the extra Uran came from if it did not come from Germany?
From Saddams WMD stocks maybe?

2)How a scientist like Dr.Alvares who could not produce even one succesful
igniter design in previous 18 month ,suddenly designed an excellent igniter at
the very last moment after checking U-234 cargo and debriefing of Dr.Schlicke?
What was the reason of sudden IQ boost Dr.Alvares experienced?

Accept it famous Manhattan Prolect was not even able to figure out how much
uran they needed for an Uran bomb before Feb.45, and they were NEVER able to
design a succesful igniter for Plutonium bomb.

But this is an Anglo dominated country and "lmage is Everything".
So try to save the image by all means even if there is a huge difference
between the image and the reality.

[Denyav]

>1945.1 (= Jan 1945) [U. S. A.] An ignition device for implosion
>completed by Luis W. Alvarez.
>http://www.ask.ne.jp/~hankaku/english/np7y.html
>
>That was some 4 months before the U-234 episode.

Actually Dr.Alvares completed not one but Three (3) ignitor designs,but none of
them were succesful.Thats the reason why I say "He was unable to produce even
one succesful ignitor design in 18 months"

The last one that delivered to test only hours before was fourth design.

Poor showing of Alvares' first three designs was very well known and documented
fact.
So everbody,including many top Manhattan Projecters were surprised by the
excellent showing of this fourth design in actual test.
After the war ,Alvares always dodged questions about this problem his answer
was always "Well.I cleaned up some wires",.
Well its of course not so simple like Dr.Alvarez made us to believe.
According to Harlow Russ,this fourth design was totally different from the
previous three and included two radical new components and according to Russ
new design these new design was completed "just in time" for trinity test which
explains why the new bomb components arrived to the test site only hours before
actual test.

Alvares' first three designs which your link refers to were so bad that
almost nobody within Manhattan Project believe in success of of Plutonium bomb
test so they concentrated on how to reclaim precious Plutonium from the test
site after failed test.
But to the surprise of the all Manhattan Projecters yield of test was four
times better than their most optimistic estimates.

Why?
Because instead of Dr.Alvarez' junk,superior German technology,or more
precisely the product of universal and eccentric genius von Ardenne, was at the
work in Trinity test site.

[Keith Willshaw]

"Bill Negraeff" > wrote in message
om...

>
> Depends on your perspective. How stupid was it for the US to ally
> themselves with the Mujehedin against a moderate and secular Afghan
> government simply because that government had strong Soviet ties?

They didnt, they allied with the Mjuahedding against a
soviet puppet government which overthrew he moderate
secular government.

Keith

[B2431]

>From: (Denyav)
>Date: 9/14/2004 1:37 PM Central Daylight Time
>Message-id: >
>
>>You are repeating yourself without providing any proof.
>>
>>Dan, U.S. Air Force, retired
>
>And you are repeating yourself without even checking recently released DOE
>documents.
>1)Where the extra Uran came from if it did not come from Germany?
>From Saddams WMD stocks maybe?
>
>2)How a scientist like Dr.Alvares who could not produce even one succesful
>igniter design in previous 18 month ,suddenly designed an excellent igniter
>at
>the very last moment after checking U-234 cargo and debriefing of
>Dr.Schlicke?
>What was the reason of sudden IQ boost Dr.Alvares experienced?
>
>Accept it famous Manhattan Prolect was not even able to figure out how much
>uran they needed for an Uran bomb before Feb.45, and they were NEVER able to
>design a succesful igniter for Plutonium bomb.
>
>But this is an Anglo dominated country and "lmage is Everything".
>So try to save the image by all means even if there is a huge difference
>between the image and the reality.

Where are your your cites. Can you provide a link to these DOE reports or any
sites that prove anything you have said?

I didn't think so.

Dan, U. S. Air Force, retired

[B2431]

>From: (Denyav)
>Date: 9/14/2004 2:25 PM Central Daylight Time
>Message-id: >
>
>>1945.1 (= Jan 1945) [U. S. A.] An ignition device for implosion
>>completed by Luis W. Alvarez.
>>http://www.ask.ne.jp/~hankaku/english/np7y.html
>>
>>That was some 4 months before the U-234 episode.
>
>Actually Dr.Alvares completed not one but Three (3) ignitor designs,but none
>of
>them were succesful.Thats the reason why I say "He was unable to produce
>even
>one succesful ignitor design in 18 months"
>
>The last one that delivered to test only hours before was fourth design.
>
>Poor showing of Alvares' first three designs was very well known and
>documented
>fact.
>So everbody,including many top Manhattan Projecters were surprised by the
>excellent showing of this fourth design in actual test.
>After the war ,Alvares always dodged questions about this problem his answer
>was always "Well.I cleaned up some wires",.
>Well its of course not so simple like Dr.Alvarez made us to believe.
>According to Harlow Russ,this fourth design was totally different from the
>previous three and included two radical new components and according to Russ
>new design these new design was completed "just in time" for trinity test
>which
>explains why the new bomb components arrived to the test site only hours
>before
>actual test.
>
>Alvares' first three designs which your link refers to were so bad that
>almost nobody within Manhattan Project believe in success of of Plutonium
>bomb
>test so they concentrated on how to reclaim precious Plutonium from the test
>site after failed test.
>But to the surprise of the all Manhattan Projecters yield of test was four
>times better than their most optimistic estimates.
>
>Why?
>Because instead of Dr.Alvarez' junk,superior German technology,or more
>precisely the product of universal and eccentric genius von Ardenne, was at
>the
>work in Trinity test site.

Yet you still refuse to cite verifyable source.

Dan, U.S. Air Force, retired

[John Mullen]

"B2431" > wrote in message
...
> >From: (Denyav)
>>Date: 9/14/2004 2:25 PM Central Daylight Time
>>Message-id: >
>>
>>>1945.1 (= Jan 1945) [U. S. A.] An ignition device for implosion
>>>completed by Luis W. Alvarez.
>>>http://www.ask.ne.jp/~hankaku/english/np7y.html
>>>
>>>That was some 4 months before the U-234 episode.
>>
>>Actually Dr.Alvares completed not one but Three (3) ignitor designs,but
>>none
>>of
>>them were succesful.Thats the reason why I say "He was unable to produce
>>even
>>one succesful ignitor design in 18 months"
>>
>>The last one that delivered to test only hours before was fourth design.
>>
>>Poor showing of Alvares' first three designs was very well known and
>>documented
>>fact.
>>So everbody,including many top Manhattan Projecters were surprised by the
>>excellent showing of this fourth design in actual test.
>>After the war ,Alvares always dodged questions about this problem his
>>answer
>>was always "Well.I cleaned up some wires",.
>>Well its of course not so simple like Dr.Alvarez made us to believe.
>>According to Harlow Russ,this fourth design was totally different from
>>the
>>previous three and included two radical new components and according to
>>Russ
>>new design these new design was completed "just in time" for trinity test
>>which
>>explains why the new bomb components arrived to the test site only hours
>>before
>>actual test.
>>
>>Alvares' first three designs which your link refers to were so bad that
>>almost nobody within Manhattan Project believe in success of of Plutonium
>>bomb
>>test so they concentrated on how to reclaim precious Plutonium from the
>>test
>>site after failed test.
>>But to the surprise of the all Manhattan Projecters yield of test was four
>>times better than their most optimistic estimates.
>>
>>Why?
>>Because instead of Dr.Alvarez' junk,superior German technology,or more
>>precisely the product of universal and eccentric genius von Ardenne, was
>>at
>>the
>>work in Trinity test site.
>
> Yet you still refuse to cite verifyable source.
>
> Dan, U.S. Air Force, retired

Go easy on him! It was a guy in a pub, right? And guys in pubs never lie...

;)

John

[Bill Negraeff]

"Keith Willshaw" > wrote in message >...
> "Bill Negraeff" > wrote in message
> om...
>
> >
> > Depends on your perspective. How stupid was it for the US to ally
> > themselves with the Mujehedin against a moderate and secular Afghan
> > government simply because that government had strong Soviet ties?
>
> They didnt, they allied with the Mjuahedding against a
> soviet puppet government which overthrew he moderate
> secular government.
>
> Keith

Check your history, Keith.

[Denyav]

>They didnt, they allied with the Mjuahedding against a
>soviet puppet government which overthrew he moderate
>secular government.
>

Names and terms like "Zbigniew Brzezenski" and "The Afghan Trap" reminds you
something?

In The Great Game first the game area are selected then proxies,not other way
around.

[Denyav]

>o easy on him! It was a guy in a pub, right? And guys in pubs never lie...
>

Actually name of the guy in the pub was no other than Harlow Russ.

LOL

[Nele VII]

wrote in message ...
>On 9 Sep 2004 13:44:10 -0700, (Eunometic)
>wrote:
>
>
>>The US has a history of using islamic based insurgence as a wedge
>>against various European countries. The behaviour of the US during
>>the Yugoslave/Bosnian/Kosovo issues was highly pro-islamic,
>
>So you think the Serbs had a right to just kill and expell all the
>muslims in Kosovo?
>
>You are sick.
>
>If that is your history of "using islamic based insurgence as a
>wedge," you are also laughably pathetic.

Look mr. before YOU write ANYTHING about FRY, get to learn some
facts who has been living in Kosovo and which nationality/religion they
are/were. Just to give you a tip:

-Kosovo is INTEGRAL PART of Serbia (not Serbia and Montenegro) as much as
some county in the State of New York. That's the bloody Constitution of
Serbia states since 1945. It is not a "republic". It has as much right to
split as much as you have to split your municipality from your country. It
was simply "envisaged" as a part where overall ethnic minorities are in
majority! Go blame Tito for that!

- "Kosovars" do not exist, they are ALBANIANS of CHATOLIC as well as of
MUSLIM nationality (Chatolic in lesser percent). The ratio Albanians:Serbs
was roughly 80:20% BEFORE 1999 (not 1991!), now it is 96-97 percent
ALBANIANS, 2-3 percent SERBS and 1 percent others (including NATO).

Since you probably heard about Kosovo in 1999 or earliest in 1991, you
should know that former Yugoslavia was uncusesfully fighting Albanian
nationalism and separatism in Kosovo since 1980 when Tito died. The product
of such dissapointment was a Sebian nationalism, and Milosevic appeared like
Hitler appeared after the Crisis in 1933. Then other "Great fathers of
nation" appeared after him. Then all the hell broke loose in entire former
Yu.

- Milosevic is a WAR CRIMINAL that should be condemned because he, Tudjman
and Alija f***d up Croatia (10-11% Serbs 1991, now around 3%-"replaced" by
Croatian refugees from Bosnia, thanks to Karadjordjevo and a handkerchif
map) and B&H that was, before the war, shuffled with Muslims, Croats and
Serbs at equal rate.

Those three "leaders" above literally polarized the country(ies, Croatia and
B&H) to Serbian, Croatian and Muslim part despite claims of EU and SFOR or
NATO. The "Migty Trio" created such national movements in B&H (and Croatia)
unseen since the times of Otoman Empire.

And this happened in the heart of Europe in the late 20 Century.

NATO was "sooo kind" and allowed ethnic cleansing of SERBS, not ALBANIANS on
Kosovo AFTER they came in Kosovo. Milosevic was still in power when they
arrived because he is/was not interested in Serbian people but to have
POWER. When Yugoslav Army left Kosovo, qute soon so did the Serbs. If you do
not believe, go to Pristina today and try to utter a word in Serbian and you
will be lucky not to get beaten. Up to 1999, you could hear an Albanian talk
in Albanian in BELGRADE on BELGRADE TELEVISION that he is from Kosovo and
that he is in a "foreign country". Say that in Pristina as a Serb and you
will get KILLED. Any NATO/UN/EU "low level" foreign worker that mingles with
people in Kosovo knows this.

The gross misunderstanding and tackling of the "Balkan stuff" of Europe
towards Balkans since Austro-Hungarian Empire, up 'till European Community
and USA now, has ALWAYS resulted not just in killed Muslims, but Croats and
Serbs too.

Where were you when a Milosevic's pion Babic was forcing 150,000+ Croats out
from self-proclaimed "Republic of Serbian Krayina" (part of Croatia) in
1991-95? Where were you when Tudjman forced out around 350,000+ Serbs in
August 1995 from entire Croatia and "imported" Croat from B&H? Where were
you when those Croats were forced to get out of Bosnia from, let's say,
Kakanj or Prozor or Tuzla (from Muslims) and to move to Croatia? Where were
you when those Muslims were forced out from Banja Luka by Serbs who fled
before Muslims in Sarajevo? Where were you when the Serbs were forced out of
Drvar and 99% Serbian-populated Drvar is now 99% Croat-refugees populated
Drvar? Do you know the numbers of Serbian, Cratian, Muslim and Albanian
people in mass graves "produced" by all three/four nationalities and who
shot or slauthered them?

It is a Vicious Circle.

Mister, you should have been here. It is not called "Balkanian Cauldron" for
nothing or because after some dish.

We, the ordinary people that suffered consequences from this war (being
bashed, killed, tortured, displaced, hungry, dirty...) do not CARE who
started it anymore. This was not WW2, this was a CIVIL WAR.

Now go and explain Fmr Yu history 1991-1999 and beyond to somebody who does
not live here. In Balkans.


Nele

NULLA ROSA SINE SPINA

[Keith Willshaw]

"Bill Negraeff" > wrote in message because that
government had strong Soviet ties?
>>
>> They didnt, they allied with the Mjuahedding against a
>> soviet puppet government which overthrew he moderate
>> secular government.
>>
>> Keith
>
> Check your history, Keith.

I have - read the following

http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/world/afghanistan/cs-introduction.htm

Keith

[denyav]

"Keith Willshaw" > wrote in message >...
> "Bill Negraeff" > wrote in message because that
> government had strong Soviet ties?
> >>
> >> They didnt, they allied with the Mjuahedding against a
> >> soviet puppet government which overthrew he moderate
> >> secular government.
> >>
> >> Keith
> >
> > Check your history, Keith.
>
> I have - read the following
>
> http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/world/afghanistan/cs-introduction.htm
>
> Keith


Another Anglo misinformation organization..
If you really want to learn what "Afghan Trap" meant and how it was
set you must read what the main architect of "The Afgan Trap"
,Zbigniew Brzezesinki told about events in Afghanistan.
Anyone who wants to learn the truth about this issue must check out
the interview with Brzezinski appeared in french journal Le Nouvel
Observateur in 98.

Apparently non-Anglo top US strategists are not very fond of twisting
facts.

[Keith Willshaw]

"denyav" > wrote in message
om...
> "Keith Willshaw" > wrote in message
> >...
>> "Bill Negraeff" > wrote in message because
>> that
>> government had strong Soviet ties?
>> >>
>> >> They didnt, they allied with the Mjuahedding against a
>> >> soviet puppet government which overthrew he moderate
>> >> secular government.
>> >>
>> >> Keith
>> >
>> > Check your history, Keith.
>>
>> I have - read the following
>>
>> http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/world/afghanistan/cs-introduction.htm
>>
>> Keith
>
>
> Another Anglo misinformation organization..
> If you really want to learn what "Afghan Trap" meant and how it was
> set you must read what the main architect of "The Afgan Trap"
> ,Zbigniew Brzezesinki told about events in Afghanistan.
> Anyone who wants to learn the truth about this issue must check out
> the interview with Brzezinski appeared in french journal Le Nouvel
> Observateur in 98.
>
> Apparently non-Anglo top US strategists are not very fond of twisting
> facts.

You and they have a great deal in common then.

Keith

[Denyav]

>You and they have a great deal in common then.

Interesting but the words the architect of "The Afghan Trap" himself making
your linked article not correct,if must say mildly.