Dan Rather forges ahead

[Cub Driver]

From the New York Post this morning:

September 11, 2004 -- CBS anchor Dan Rather hung tough last night and
insisted there's no "definitive evidence" to refute the authenticity
of documents about President Bush's National Guard service — but a
growing number of document experts smell a hoax.
"If any definitive evidence to the contrary of our story is found, we
will report it. So far there is none," Rather insisted.

He produced a man named Marcel Matley as the document vetter.

But Matley is primarily a handwriting expert whose expertise in
document evaluation has been challenged by the head of the American
Board of Forensic Document Examiners.

Matley spoke only about a signature and initials purported to be those
of the late Lt. Col. Jerry Killian — "they are his signatures" —
though two of the four memos are unsigned.

Rather also acknowledged CBS has no originals, only photocopies.

Allan Haley — a typeface expert at Agfa Monotype — said anyone who
claims to definitively authenticate a photocopy "is either guessing or
is a fool."



In another challenge to CBS, Killian's boss, retired Maj. Gen. Bobby
W. Hodges, told ABC News that he regards the documents as a computer
"fraud," never saw them in the 1970s and didn't validate them for CBS.

A senior CBS official had claimed to the Washington Post that Hodges
had validated the documents.

During his national news broadcast, Rather claimed "partisan political
operatives" are challenging the memos but omitted the fact that
Killian's widow and son dispute them.

The memos cast doubt on whether Bush fulfilled his Guard requirements.

Marjorie Connell — widow of Lt. Col. Killian, who died in 1984 — has
told ABC the documents are "very suspect" because her late husband
didn't type and was a big fan of the young Bush.

A key issue is whether the documents were made on a 1970s-era
typewriter or are forgeries done by computer because of their
proportional spacing and raised superscripts on ordinal numbers like
"111th."

Rather last night pointed to an undisputed document from Bush's
National Guard files and claimed it has a superscript, so they were
available by 1968.

But that document is in a different typeface and experts say it was
made on a different type of machine without proportional spacing so it
proves nothing.

"It could be a superscript, it could be a correction with a letter
showing through white-out, but in any case it's absolutely irrelevant
.. . . It doesn't prove a thing," said document expert Bill Flynn.

"It's a completely different technology," added the Phoenix-based
Flynn.

Flynn said it's "very unlikely" that the memos are legit, adding that
he knows of no typewriter fonts using proportionally spaced Roman type
with a raised "th" available in the 1970s.


all the best -- Dan Ford
email: (put Cubdriver in subject line)

The Warbird's Forum www.warbirdforum.com
Expedition sailboat charters www.expeditionsail.com

[Tom Cervo]

>Flynn said it's "very unlikely" that the memos are legit, adding that
>he knows of no typewriter fonts using proportionally spaced Roman type
>with a raised "th" available in the 1970s.

Come off it, Dan, anyone who used a typewriter knew the trick of lifting the
roller a smidge (or lowering it) for sub (or super) script. You must not have
ever typed footnotes.

[B2431]

>From: (Tom Cervo)
>Date: 9/11/2004 5:30 PM Central Daylight Time
>Message-id: >
>
>>Flynn said it's "very unlikely" that the memos are legit, adding that
>>he knows of no typewriter fonts using proportionally spaced Roman type
>>with a raised "th" available in the 1970s.
>
>Come off it, Dan, anyone who used a typewriter knew the trick of lifting the
>roller a smidge (or lowering it) for sub (or super) script. You must not have
>ever typed footnotes.

Sure it was a common trick, but I have never seen it done on official
documents.

For instance I was in the 55th ARRS and that was the proper way to type it
though I have seen 55 ARRS.

The type written headings were not used on official unit level documents. They
would have used the preprinted blue letter heading with USAF seal.

As for the CYA memo no person in his right mind would say that anywhere in a
memo. There are plenty of ways to write something without saying. People who
write term papers do it all the time to inflate word count.

Dan, U.S. Air Force, retired

[Ed Rasimus]

On 11 Sep 2004 22:30:08 GMT, (Tom Cervo) wrote:

>>Flynn said it's "very unlikely" that the memos are legit, adding that
>>he knows of no typewriter fonts using proportionally spaced Roman type
>>with a raised "th" available in the 1970s.
>
>Come off it, Dan, anyone who used a typewriter knew the trick of lifting the
>roller a smidge (or lowering it) for sub (or super) script. You must not have
>ever typed footnotes.

And, anyone who used a typewriter knows that the trick results in a
sub or super that is the same size type face as the typewriter's, not
the smaller word processor font used for sub/supers.

But, the more important questions relate to why the commander is
writing memos about pressure from a superior who retired 18 months
earlier and hence was no longer above him.

Or, why is the commander ordering Bush for a physical just two weeks
into his 90 period of eligibility? Or, since when does a squadron
commander issue orders for flight physicals (they don't!)

Or why does the commander identify a CYA memo as a CYA? If you're
really trying to cover your ass you don't point it out in the subject
line.

Or, why is the commander writing orders to a subordinate that he has
already approved for temporary posting to another state in a unit
which at the time had no airplanes to fly and over which he had no
authority?

Or, why does the commander's wife and son deny that he could type,
that he was a memo writer or that he had any problem with Lt. Bush who
he had commended very publicly on the record the year before?


Ed Rasimus
Fighter Pilot (USAF-Ret)
"When Thunder Rolled"
"Phantom Flights, Bangkok Nights"
Both from Smithsonian Books
***www.thunderchief.org

[Kevin Brooks]

"Tom Cervo" > wrote in message
...
> >Flynn said it's "very unlikely" that the memos are legit, adding that
> >he knows of no typewriter fonts using proportionally spaced Roman type
> >with a raised "th" available in the 1970s.
>
> Come off it, Dan, anyone who used a typewriter knew the trick of lifting
the
> roller a smidge (or lowering it) for sub (or super) script. You must not
have
> ever typed footnotes.

In smaller case than the rest of the document? Not to mention that anytime I
ever did that with an IBM Selectric, when I tried to go back to the original
line I invariable found the following type to be just a *smidgen* out of
vertical alignment with what I had done before.

Brooks

[Bob Coe]

"Ed Rasimus" > wrote
>
> But, the more important questions relate to why the commander is
> writing memos about pressure from a superior who retired 18 months
> earlier and hence was no longer above him.
>
> Or, why is the commander ordering Bush for a physical just two weeks
> into his 90 period of eligibility? Or, since when does a squadron
> commander issue orders for flight physicals (they don't!)
>
> Or why does the commander identify a CYA memo as a CYA? If you're
> really trying to cover your ass you don't point it out in the subject
> line.
>
> Or, why is the commander writing orders to a subordinate that he has
> already approved for temporary posting to another state in a unit
> which at the time had no airplanes to fly and over which he had no
> authority?
>
> Or, why does the commander's wife and son deny that he could type,
> that he was a memo writer or that he had any problem with Lt. Bush who
> he had commended very publicly on the record the year before?

All of your points are right on the mark!

I just don't see how a person like Dan Rather could be so easily duped by
these forgeries. They weren't even originals! Hell even I can cut out someone's
signature and put it on any letter I want with just a Xerox machine. Today
I would just use my scanner and add it to my MS Word document.

No, I think Dan Rather was putting his reputation behind a known
forgery, to give it credence, and to hurt the Republican party. I hope
it now results in his finally being put out to pasture (which should have
happened 10 years ago anyway). Same with the other scum-bags on
60 minutes, who are always making a mountain out of a mole hill.

[Bob Coe]

"Tom Cervo" > wrote
> >Flynn said it's "very unlikely" that the memos are legit, adding that
>>he knows of no typewriter fonts using proportionally spaced Roman type
>>with a raised "th" available in the 1970s.
>
> Come off it, Dan, anyone who used a typewriter knew the trick of lifting the
> roller a smidge (or lowering it) for sub (or super) script. You must not have
> ever typed footnotes.

Really!?? How do you get the font size to change?

No, the first typewriter to do that was the Selectric, as it had scripts of a
smaller font on the typing ball.

[Jack G]

What trick did you use on your typewriter to get it to do proportional
fonts - Do the terms "pica" and "elite" mean anything to you?

Jack


"Tom Cervo" > wrote in message
...
> >Flynn said it's "very unlikely" that the memos are legit, adding that
> >he knows of no typewriter fonts using proportionally spaced Roman type
> >with a raised "th" available in the 1970s.
>
> Come off it, Dan, anyone who used a typewriter knew the trick of lifting
the
> roller a smidge (or lowering it) for sub (or super) script. You must not
have
> ever typed footnotes.

[Jarg]

"Bob Coe" > wrote in message
news:%JM0d.23965$ni.13950@okepread01...

>
> I just don't see how a person like Dan Rather could be so easily duped by
> these forgeries. They weren't even originals! Hell even I can cut out
> someone's
> signature and put it on any letter I want with just a Xerox machine.
> Today
> I would just use my scanner and add it to my MS Word document.
>


I give him the benefit of the doubt - he saw what he wanted to see.


> No, I think Dan Rather was putting his reputation behind a known
> forgery, to give it credence, and to hurt the Republican party. I hope
> it now results in his finally being put out to pasture (which should have
> happened 10 years ago anyway). Same with the other scum-bags on
> 60 minutes, who are always making a mountain out of a mole hill.
>
>

I'm sure he has no qualms about hurting the Republican party, but I still
think it unlikely he knew.

Jarg

[ArtKramr]

>Subject: Re: Dan Rather forges ahead
>From: "Jarg"
>Date: 9/11/2004 5:32 PM Pacific Standard Time
>Message-id: >
>
>"Bob Coe" > wrote in message
>news:%JM0d.23965$ni.13950@okepread01...
>
>>
>> I just don't see how a person like Dan Rather could be so easily duped by
>> these forgeries. They weren't even originals! Hell even I can cut out
>> someone's
>> signature and put it on any letter I want with just a Xerox machine.
>> Today
>> I would just use my scanner and add it to my MS Word document.
>>
>
>
>I give him the benefit of the doubt - he saw what he wanted to see.
>
>
>> No, I think Dan Rather was putting his reputation behind a known
>> forgery, to give it credence, and to hurt the Republican party. I hope
>> it now results in his finally being put out to pasture (which should have
>> happened 10 years ago anyway). Same with the other scum-bags on
>> 60 minutes, who are always making a mountain out of a mole hill.
>>
>>
>
>I'm sure he has no qualms about hurting the Republican party, but I still
>think it unlikely he knew.
>
>Jarg

Nothing to know. These were the real thing. The rest is just the usual Neocon
spin.


Arthur Kramer
344th BG 494th BS
England, France, Belgium, Holland, Germany
Visit my WW II B-26 website at:
http://www.coastcomp.com/artkramer

[Jarg]

"ArtKramr" > wrote in message
...

>
> Nothing to know. These were the real thing. The rest is just the usual
> Neocon
> spin.
>
>
> Arthur Kramer
> 344th BG 494th BS
> England, France, Belgium, Holland, Germany
> Visit my WW II B-26 website at:
> http://www.coastcomp.com/artkramer
>

Keeping the faith, eh Kramer? You really have your head in the sand.

And I'm in the mood for a laugh so would you tell us again what a Necon is?

Jarg

[Jack G]

> Nothing to know. These were the real thing. The rest is just the usual
Neocon
> spin.
>
>
> Arthur Kramer
> 344th BG 494th BS
> England, France, Belgium, Holland, Germany
> Visit my WW II B-26 website at:
> http://www.coastcomp.com/artkramer
>

And there you have it: The definitive word on document authentication from
the man who says if you were not a bomb toggeler in a B-26 in WW II ETO you
don't know anything or have the right to comment on military avation...

Jack G.

[Steve Hix]

In article >,
(Tom Cervo) wrote:

> >Flynn said it's "very unlikely" that the memos are legit, adding that
> >he knows of no typewriter fonts using proportionally spaced Roman type
> >with a raised "th" available in the 1970s.
>
> Come off it, Dan, anyone who used a typewriter knew the trick of lifting the
> roller a smidge (or lowering it) for sub (or super) script. You must not have
> ever typed footnotes.

The reduced font size of the "th" is more than slightly a problem for
your argument in this case.

And there is still the problem of proportional font spacing.

Etc.

[Steve Hix]

In article <%JM0d.23965$ni.13950@okepread01>,
"Bob Coe" > wrote:

> I just don't see how a person like Dan Rather could be so easily duped by
> these forgeries.

They're something that he desperately *wants* to believe, reasonable or
not.

[John Keeney]

"Tom Cervo" > wrote in message
...
> >Flynn said it's "very unlikely" that the memos are legit, adding that
> >he knows of no typewriter fonts using proportionally spaced Roman type
> >with a raised "th" available in the 1970s.
>
> Come off it, Dan, anyone who used a typewriter knew the trick of lifting
the
> roller a smidge (or lowering it) for sub (or super) script. You must not
have
> ever typed footnotes.

Haven't seen a copy of the "memo", hu?
The superscripted "th" is in a much smaller font size than the rest of
the document; the "th" used aprox the same horizontal space as each
digit in the number before it. *If* it was produced by a typewriter of
any vintage that used impact transfers of fixed characters, the
superscript "th" was a single character.

[David Lentz]

"Bob Coe" > wrote in message
news:%JM0d.23965$ni.13950@okepread01...
> "Ed Rasimus" > wrote
> >
> > But, the more important questions relate to why the commander is
> > writing memos about pressure from a superior who retired 18 months
> > earlier and hence was no longer above him.
> >
> > Or, why is the commander ordering Bush for a physical just two weeks
> > into his 90 period of eligibility? Or, since when does a squadron
> > commander issue orders for flight physicals (they don't!)
> >
> > Or why does the commander identify a CYA memo as a CYA? If you're
> > really trying to cover your ass you don't point it out in the subject
> > line.
> >
> > Or, why is the commander writing orders to a subordinate that he has
> > already approved for temporary posting to another state in a unit
> > which at the time had no airplanes to fly and over which he had no
> > authority?
> >
> > Or, why does the commander's wife and son deny that he could type,
> > that he was a memo writer or that he had any problem with Lt. Bush who
> > he had commended very publicly on the record the year before?
>
> All of your points are right on the mark!
>
> I just don't see how a person like Dan Rather could be so easily duped by
> these forgeries. They weren't even originals! Hell even I can cut out
someone's
> signature and put it on any letter I want with just a Xerox machine.
Today
> I would just use my scanner and add it to my MS Word document.
>
> No, I think Dan Rather was putting his reputation behind a known
> forgery, to give it credence, and to hurt the Republican party. I hope
> it now results in his finally being put out to pasture (which should have
> happened 10 years ago anyway). Same with the other scum-bags on
> 60 minutes, who are always making a mountain out of a mole hill.

I see only two reasons Dan Rather would have swalllowed the Rathergate
memos. One Rather is stupid, or two Rather wanted to believe them. I opt
for the the latter. Rather is a paristan democrat and is shows.

David

[Cub Driver]

On 11 Sep 2004 22:30:08 GMT, (Tom Cervo) wrote:

>Come off it, Dan, anyone who used a typewriter knew the trick of lifting the
>roller a smidge (or lowering it) for sub (or super) script. You must not have
>ever typed footnotes.

And makes the letters tiny?

The forgeries were almost certainly created by Microsoft Word, and
were certainly created by a computer. The forger was so amateurish
that he didn't know how to turn off the auto-correct feature!

all the best -- Dan Ford
email: (put Cubdriver in subject line)

The Warbird's Forum www.warbirdforum.com
Expedition sailboat charters www.expeditionsail.com

[Cub Driver]

On 11 Sep 2004 22:53:52 GMT, (B2431) wrote:

>>Come off it, Dan, anyone who used a typewriter knew the trick of lifting the
>>roller a smidge (or lowering it) for sub (or super) script. You must not have
>>ever typed footnotes.
>
>Sure it was a common trick, but I have never seen it done on official
>documents.
>
>For instance I was in the 55th ARRS and that was the proper way to type it
>though I have seen 55 ARRS.

By the way, on other of the documents, the forger wrote it with a
space, so as to defeat the auto-corrector. Thus your outfit would be
rendered thus: 55 th.

Again, he was a rank amateur, fooling only the people who wanted to be
fooled. It's no trouble at all, if you're too lazy to turn off
auto-correction, to type 55 th and then delete the space. Word won't
change it then.


all the best -- Dan Ford
email: (put Cubdriver in subject line)

The Warbird's Forum www.warbirdforum.com
Expedition sailboat charters www.expeditionsail.com

[Cub Driver]

One of the obvious forgeries is posted at www.vivabush.org with a link
to another site with more of the same, plus a $10,500 reward for Tom
Cervo if he can re-create those documents with a 1972 typewriter.

Enjoy the site. I established it four months ago after reading some of
the slime posted on this newsgroup about Bush, whom I was then
inclined to support. Over the months, I have become ever more partisan
in this respect.

Thus do anonymous trolls defeat their own cause.

all the best -- Dan Ford
email: (put Cubdriver in subject line)

The Warbird's Forum www.warbirdforum.com
Expedition sailboat charters www.expeditionsail.com

[Ed Rasimus]

On Sun, 12 Sep 2004 06:35:06 -0400, Cub Driver
> wrote:

>On 11 Sep 2004 22:30:08 GMT, (Tom Cervo) wrote:
>
>>Come off it, Dan, anyone who used a typewriter knew the trick of lifting the
>>roller a smidge (or lowering it) for sub (or super) script. You must not have
>>ever typed footnotes.
>
>And makes the letters tiny?
>
>The forgeries were almost certainly created by Microsoft Word, and
>were certainly created by a computer. The forger was so amateurish
>that he didn't know how to turn off the auto-correct feature!
>
>all the best -- Dan Ford

And, does anyone remember how you centered a heading with a
typewriter?

You counted the letters in the line to be typed, then centered the
roller and backspaced half the number of letters before starting to
type.

Can you imagine a commander typing himself an MFR going through that
sort of centered heading drill?


Ed Rasimus
Fighter Pilot (USAF-Ret)
"When Thunder Rolled"
"Phantom Flights, Bangkok Nights"
Both from Smithsonian Books
***www.thunderchief.org

[Jim Yanik]

Cub Driver > wrote in
:

> On 11 Sep 2004 22:30:08 GMT, (Tom Cervo) wrote:
>
>>Come off it, Dan, anyone who used a typewriter knew the trick of
>>lifting the roller a smidge (or lowering it) for sub (or super)
>>script. You must not have ever typed footnotes.
>
> And makes the letters tiny?
>
> The forgeries were almost certainly created by Microsoft Word, and
> were certainly created by a computer. The forger was so amateurish
> that he didn't know how to turn off the auto-correct feature!
>
> all the best -- Dan Ford
> email: (put Cubdriver in subject line)
>
> The Warbird's Forum www.warbirdforum.com
> Expedition sailboat charters www.expeditionsail.com


More on this;

http://www.newsmax.com/archives/ic/2004/9/12/73008.shtml

--
Jim Yanik
jyanik-at-kua.net

[Bob Coe]

"Ed Rasimus" > wrote
>
> And, does anyone remember how you centered a heading with a
> typewriter?
>
> You counted the letters in the line to be typed, then centered the
> roller and backspaced half the number of letters before starting to
> type.
>
> Can you imagine a commander typing himself an MFR going through that
> sort of centered heading drill?

Yes, yes!

When I first saw the memo's, I thought maybe the Guard couldn't
afford letterhead. Didn't the Guard have letterhead back then?

Someone called it "Rathergate" and I thought this was pretty funny, since
CBS attaches -gate to just about everything political.

[Chad Irby]

In article <P%_0d.24205$ni.4337@okepread01>, "Bob Coe" >
wrote:

> Someone called it "Rathergate" and I thought this was pretty funny, since
> CBS attaches -gate to just about everything political.

A lot of folks are putting it online with the "th" superscripted, sorta
like "Ra^th^ergate."

--
cirby at cfl.rr.com

Remember: Objects in rearview mirror may be hallucinations.
Slam on brakes accordingly.

[Jim Yanik]

Chad Irby > wrote in
:

> In article <P%_0d.24205$ni.4337@okepread01>, "Bob Coe"
> > wrote:
>
>> Someone called it "Rathergate" and I thought this was pretty funny,
>> since CBS attaches -gate to just about everything political.
>
> A lot of folks are putting it online with the "th" superscripted,
> sorta like "Ra^th^ergate."
>

Here's a good read about all this;
http://frontpagemag.com/Articles/ReadArticle.asp?ID=14993

Ben Barnes is a DemocRATic co-chairman of Kerry's campaign.

Seems ol'Dan participated in a DemocRATic fundraiser while a CBS anchor.
(so much for impartiality)
(or credibility)

--
Jim Yanik
jyanik-at-kua.net

[BUFDRVR]

Tom Cervo wrote:

>Come off it, Dan, anyone who used a typewriter knew the trick of lifting the
>roller a smidge (or lowering it) for sub (or super) script. You must not have
>ever typed footnotes.

The issue isn't the raised "th", but the fact that the "th" is written in a
smaller font as well.


BUFDRVR

"Stay on the bomb run boys, I'm gonna get those bomb doors open if it harelips
everyone on Bear Creek"

[ArtKramr]

>Subject: Re: Dan Rather forges ahead
>From: Jim Yanik
>Date: 9/12/2004 2:30 PM Pacific Standard Time
>Message-id: >
>
>Chad Irby > wrote in
:
>
>> In article <P%_0d.24205$ni.4337@okepread01>, "Bob Coe"
>> > wrote:
>>
>>> Someone called it "Rathergate" and I thought this was pretty funny,
>>> since CBS attaches -gate to just about everything political.
>>
>> A lot of folks are putting it online with the "th" superscripted,
>> sorta like "Ra^th^ergate."
>>
>
>Here's a good read about all this;
>http://frontpagemag.com/Articles/ReadArticle.asp?ID=14993
>
>Ben Barnes is a DemocRATic co-chairman of Kerry's campaign.
>
>Seems ol'Dan participated in a DemocRATic fundraiser while a CBS anchor.
>(so much for impartiality)
>(or credibility)
>
>--
>Jim Yanik
>jyanik-at-kua.net
>

Typical Neocon logic. No logic.



Arthur Kramer
344th BG 494th BS
England, France, Belgium, Holland, Germany
Visit my WW II B-26 website at:
http://www.coastcomp.com/artkramer

[B2431]

>From: (ArtKramr)
>Date: 9/12/2004 6:44 PM Central Daylight Time
>Message-id: >
>
>>Subject: Re: Dan Rather forges ahead
>>From: Jim Yanik
>>Date: 9/12/2004 2:30 PM Pacific Standard Time
>>Message-id: >
>>
>>Chad Irby > wrote in
:
>>
>>> In article <P%_0d.24205$ni.4337@okepread01>, "Bob Coe"
>>> > wrote:
>>>
>>>> Someone called it "Rathergate" and I thought this was pretty funny,
>>>> since CBS attaches -gate to just about everything political.
>>>
>>> A lot of folks are putting it online with the "th" superscripted,
>>> sorta like "Ra^th^ergate."
>>>
>>
>>Here's a good read about all this;
>>http://frontpagemag.com/Articles/ReadArticle.asp?ID=14993
>>
>>Ben Barnes is a DemocRATic co-chairman of Kerry's campaign.
>>
>>Seems ol'Dan participated in a DemocRATic fundraiser while a CBS anchor.
>>(so much for impartiality)
>>(or credibility)
>>
>>--
>>Jim Yanik
>>jyanik-at-kua.net
>>
>
>Typical Neocon logic. No logic.
>
>
>
>Arthur Kramer

A typical non answer from someone who refuses to respond to questions, who
disrespects himself and others, who behaves as a child and breaks his promises.

Dan, U.S. Air Force, retired

[ArtKramr]

> typical non answer from someone who refuses to respond to questions, who
>disrespects himself and others, who behaves as a child and breaks his
>promises.
>
>Dan, U.S. Air Force, retired


What did you say you did in the Air Force?


Arthur Kramer
344th BG 494th BS
England, France, Belgium, Holland, Germany
Visit my WW II B-26 website at:
http://www.coastcomp.com/artkramer

[B2431]

>From: (ArtKramr)
>Date: 9/12/2004 7:15 PM Central Daylight Time
>Message-id: >
>
>
>> typical non answer from someone who refuses to respond to questions, who
>>disrespects himself and others, who behaves as a child and breaks his
>>promises.
>>
>>Dan, U.S. Air Force, retired
>
>
>What did you say you did in the Air Force?
>
>
>Arthur Kramer
>

Actually I have given you the answer to that at least once before. I don't
expect you to admit it since you are not an honourable man.

What did you say a neocon is? If you don't know the answer at least be man
enough to say so.

Dan, U. S. Air Force, retired

[ArtKramr]

>Subject: Re: Dan Rather forges ahead
>From: (B2431)
>Date: 9/12/2004 6:17 PM Pacific Standard Time
>Message-id: >
>
>>From: (ArtKramr)
>>Date: 9/12/2004 7:15 PM Central Daylight Time
>>Message-id: >
>>
>>
>>> typical non answer from someone who refuses to respond to questions, who
>>>disrespects himself and others, who behaves as a child and breaks his
>>>promises.
>>>
>>>Dan, U.S. Air Force, retired
>>
>>
>>What did you say you did in the Air Force?
>>
>>
>>Arthur Kramer
>>
>
>Actually I have given you the answer to that at least once before. I don't
>expect you to admit it since you are not an honourable man.
>
>What did you say a neocon is? If you don't know the answer at least be man
>enough to say so.
>
>Dan, U. S. Air Force, retired
>

Typical no answer answer.


Arthur Kramer
344th BG 494th BS
England, France, Belgium, Holland, Germany
Visit my WW II B-26 website at:
http://www.coastcomp.com/artkramer

[Kevin Brooks]

"ArtKramr" > wrote in message
...
> >Subject: Re: Dan Rather forges ahead
> >From: (B2431)
> >Date: 9/12/2004 6:17 PM Pacific Standard Time
> >Message-id: >
> >
> >>From: (ArtKramr)
> >>Date: 9/12/2004 7:15 PM Central Daylight Time
> >>Message-id: >
> >>
> >>
> >>> typical non answer from someone who refuses to respond to questions,
who
> >>>disrespects himself and others, who behaves as a child and breaks his
> >>>promises.
> >>>
> >>>Dan, U.S. Air Force, retired
> >>
> >>
> >>What did you say you did in the Air Force?
> >>
> >>
> >>Arthur Kramer
> >>
> >
> >Actually I have given you the answer to that at least once before. I
don't
> >expect you to admit it since you are not an honourable man.
> >
> >What did you say a neocon is? If you don't know the answer at least be
man
> >enough to say so.
> >
> >Dan, U. S. Air Force, retired
> >
>
> Typical no answer answer.

Bwahaha! Coming from the undisputed and still "King of Refusing to Answer
Direct Questions", that is a hoot, Cosmo! What did you say a neocon was
again? Ooops--shouldn't have put in that "again", should I? You never
answered it the first time...or the second...or the forty-eighth time... At
some point you are really gonna have to stop using words you can't
understand the meaning of.

Brooks

>
>
> Arthur Kramer

[Thomas J. Paladino Jr.]

"ArtKramr" > wrote in message
...
> >Subject: Re: Dan Rather forges ahead
> >From: "Jarg"
> >Date: 9/11/2004 5:32 PM Pacific Standard Time
> >Message-id: >
> >
> >"Bob Coe" > wrote in message
> >news:%JM0d.23965$ni.13950@okepread01...
> >
> >>
> >> I just don't see how a person like Dan Rather could be so easily duped
by
> >> these forgeries. They weren't even originals! Hell even I can cut out
> >> someone's
> >> signature and put it on any letter I want with just a Xerox machine.
> >> Today
> >> I would just use my scanner and add it to my MS Word document.
> >>
> >
> >
> >I give him the benefit of the doubt - he saw what he wanted to see.
> >
> >
> >> No, I think Dan Rather was putting his reputation behind a known
> >> forgery, to give it credence, and to hurt the Republican party. I hope
> >> it now results in his finally being put out to pasture (which should
have
> >> happened 10 years ago anyway). Same with the other scum-bags on
> >> 60 minutes, who are always making a mountain out of a mole hill.
> >>
> >>
> >
> >I'm sure he has no qualms about hurting the Republican party, but I still
> >think it unlikely he knew.
> >
> >Jarg
>
> Nothing to know. These were the real thing. The rest is just the usual
Neocon
> spin.
>

Hey, what's a neocon?

[Thomas J. Paladino Jr.]

"ArtKramr" > wrote in message
...
> >Subject: Re: Dan Rather forges ahead
> >From: Jim Yanik
> >Date: 9/12/2004 2:30 PM Pacific Standard Time
> >Message-id: >
> >
> >Chad Irby > wrote in
> :
> >
> >> In article <P%_0d.24205$ni.4337@okepread01>, "Bob Coe"
> >> > wrote:
> >>
> >>> Someone called it "Rathergate" and I thought this was pretty funny,
> >>> since CBS attaches -gate to just about everything political.
> >>
> >> A lot of folks are putting it online with the "th" superscripted,
> >> sorta like "Ra^th^ergate."
> >>
> >
> >Here's a good read about all this;
> >http://frontpagemag.com/Articles/ReadArticle.asp?ID=14993
> >
> >Ben Barnes is a DemocRATic co-chairman of Kerry's campaign.
> >
> >Seems ol'Dan participated in a DemocRATic fundraiser while a CBS anchor.
> >(so much for impartiality)
> >(or credibility)
> >
> >--
> >Jim Yanik
> >jyanik-at-kua.net
> >
>
> Typical Neocon logic. No logic.
>
>

What's a neocon? So far all I can tell is that you define it as "anyone who
ever disagrees with me".

[Jim Yanik]

"Thomas J. Paladino Jr." > wrote in
:

>
> "ArtKramr" > wrote in message
> ...
>> >Subject: Re: Dan Rather forges ahead
>> >From: Jim Yanik
>> >Date: 9/12/2004 2:30 PM Pacific Standard Time
>> >Message-id: >
>> >
>> >Chad Irby > wrote in
>> :
>> >
>> >> In article <P%_0d.24205$ni.4337@okepread01>, "Bob Coe"
>> >> > wrote:
>> >>
>> >>> Someone called it "Rathergate" and I thought this was pretty
>> >>> funny, since CBS attaches -gate to just about everything
>> >>> political.
>> >>
>> >> A lot of folks are putting it online with the "th" superscripted,
>> >> sorta like "Ra^th^ergate."
>> >>
>> >
>> >Here's a good read about all this;
>> >http://frontpagemag.com/Articles/ReadArticle.asp?ID=14993
>> >
>> >Ben Barnes is a DemocRATic co-chairman of Kerry's campaign.
>> >
>> >Seems ol'Dan participated in a DemocRATic fundraiser while a CBS
>> >anchor. (so much for impartiality)
>> >(or credibility)
>> >
>> >--
>> >Jim Yanik
>> >jyanik-at-kua.net
>> >
>>
>> Typical Neocon logic. No logic.
>>
>>
>
> What's a neocon? So far all I can tell is that you define it as
> "anyone who ever disagrees with me".
>
>
>
>

I suspect he didn't even READ the articles I listed.

Here's another from ABC,not exactly a "right wing" media source;

http://abcnews.go.com/sections/Politics/Vote2004/bush_documents_040909-
1.html

--
Jim Yanik
jyanik-at-kua.net

[John Keeney]

"Ed Rasimus" > wrote in message
...
> On Sun, 12 Sep 2004 06:35:06 -0400, Cub Driver
> > wrote:
>
> >On 11 Sep 2004 22:30:08 GMT, (Tom Cervo) wrote:
> >
> >>Come off it, Dan, anyone who used a typewriter knew the trick of lifting
the
> >>roller a smidge (or lowering it) for sub (or super) script. You must not
have
> >>ever typed footnotes.
> >
> >And makes the letters tiny?
> >
> >The forgeries were almost certainly created by Microsoft Word, and
> >were certainly created by a computer. The forger was so amateurish
> >that he didn't know how to turn off the auto-correct feature!
> >
> >all the best -- Dan Ford
>
> And, does anyone remember how you centered a heading with a
> typewriter?
>
> You counted the letters in the line to be typed, then centered the
> roller and backspaced half the number of letters before starting to
> type.
>
> Can you imagine a commander typing himself an MFR going through that
> sort of centered heading drill?

Well, Ed, the "memos" look like forgeries to me too but I've got to
wonder about that argument: were preprinted headers completely
unknown in the service back then?

[Cub Driver]

On Sun, 12 Sep 2004 11:42:18 -0500, "Bob Coe" > wrote:

>Didn't the Guard have letterhead back then?

Actually, probably not. I was a company clerk in the army somewhat
earlier, and I never saw letterhead paper. (Never saw superscripts or
centering, either!)

>Someone called it "Rathergate" and I thought this was pretty funny, since
>CBS attaches -gate to just about everything political.

It's astonishing how little play this story is getting. Compare how
excited the networks and the newspapers got about Republicans'
contributing (oh no!) to the Swifties advertising pot.

But here is CBS News, where Walter Cronkite once reigned, peddling
forgeries that very likely were created by the Kerry campaign. But
when you Google "CBS forgeries", the returns you get are all from
second-tier newspapers with Republican proclivities, like the New York
Post.

There was one good story in the Washington Post. (The post, for all
its overt partisanship, is a very honest newspaper.) I'd be very
grateful if anyone could point me to stories in the New Times or Los
Angeles Times, for example.
all the best -- Dan Ford
email: (put Cubdriver in subject line)

The Warbird's Forum www.warbirdforum.com
Expedition sailboat charters www.expeditionsail.com

[Bill Jameson]

BUFDRVR wrote:
> Tom Cervo wrote:
>
>
>>Come off it, Dan, anyone who used a typewriter knew the trick of lifting the
>>roller a smidge (or lowering it) for sub (or super) script. You must not have
>>ever typed footnotes.
>
>
> The issue isn't the raised "th", but the fact that the "th" is written in a
> smaller font as well.

From 1968 on SMC (Smith Corona) typewriters had two optional keyface
slots (shift one and shift +) for a number of optional letters, accents
and marks. I had section and paragraph marks on mine as I clerked in a
law office. "rd" and "nd" superscripts were also available.

Bill Jameson

[OXMORON1]

Art wrote in response to:
>>Actually I have given you the answer to that at least once before. I don't
>>expect you to admit it since you are not an honourable man.
>>

the following:
>Typical no answer answer.
>

Don't talk about non answers Art. You are the master at not answering
questions.

I ask you again...What is the difference between...Horse apples, Sheep pebbles
and Cow patties? You ought to be able to answer that one with ease.

Rick
MFE

[William Wright]

"Cub Driver" > wrote in message
...
> On Sun, 12 Sep 2004 11:42:18 -0500, "Bob Coe" > wrote:
>
<snip>
>
> There was one good story in the Washington Post. (The post, for all
> its overt partisanship, is a very honest newspaper.) I'd be very
> grateful if anyone could point me to stories in the New Times or Los
> Angeles Times, for example.

I used to think so, but after reading their (Washington Post) reporting of
the take down of Saddam last year and comparing it to what was actually
happening, I was forced to conclude that they were either, dishonest, stupid
or covering a completly different war than I was watching.

As for CBS, I stopped watching them after they showed a "live" picture of
New York on 1/1/2000 in which they had digitally covered the NBC Studios
sign with a CBS sign. You can't trust people who knowingly falsify the news.

> all the best -- Dan Ford
> email: (put Cubdriver in subject line)
>
> The Warbird's Forum www.warbirdforum.com
> Expedition sailboat charters www.expeditionsail.com

[B2431]

>From: "Kevin Brooks"
>Date: 9/12/2004 9:40 PM Central Daylight Time
>Message-id: >
>
>
>"ArtKramr" > wrote in message
...
>> >Subject: Re: Dan Rather forges ahead
>> >From: (B2431)
>> >Date: 9/12/2004 6:17 PM Pacific Standard Time
>> >Message-id: >
>> >
>> >>From: (ArtKramr)
>> >>Date: 9/12/2004 7:15 PM Central Daylight Time
>> >>Message-id: >
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>> typical non answer from someone who refuses to respond to questions,
>who
>> >>>disrespects himself and others, who behaves as a child and breaks his
>> >>>promises.
>> >>>
>> >>>Dan, U.S. Air Force, retired
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>What did you say you did in the Air Force?
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>Arthur Kramer
>> >>
>> >
>> >Actually I have given you the answer to that at least once before. I
>don't
>> >expect you to admit it since you are not an honourable man.
>> >
>> >What did you say a neocon is? If you don't know the answer at least be
>man
>> >enough to say so.
>> >
>> >Dan, U. S. Air Force, retired
>> >
>>
>> Typical no answer answer.
>
>Bwahaha! Coming from the undisputed and still "King of Refusing to Answer
>Direct Questions", that is a hoot, Cosmo! What did you say a neocon was
>again? Ooops--shouldn't have put in that "again", should I? You never
>answered it the first time...or the second...or the forty-eighth time... At
>some point you are really gonna have to stop using words you can't
>understand the meaning of.
>
>Brooks
>
>> Arthur Kramer

You mean like the time last week he called clinton a combat veteran for
fighting impeachment? He lost that fight.

Dan, U.S. Air Force, retired

[B2431]

>From: "Thomas J. Paladino Jr."
>Date: 9/12/2004 10:42 PM Central Daylight Time
>Message-id: >
>
>
>"ArtKramr" > wrote in message
...
>> >Subject: Re: Dan Rather forges ahead
>> >From: "Jarg"
>> >Date: 9/11/2004 5:32 PM Pacific Standard Time
>> >Message-id: >
>> >
>> >"Bob Coe" > wrote in message
>> >news:%JM0d.23965$ni.13950@okepread01...
>> >
>> >>
>> >> I just don't see how a person like Dan Rather could be so easily duped
>by
>> >> these forgeries. They weren't even originals! Hell even I can cut out
>> >> someone's
>> >> signature and put it on any letter I want with just a Xerox machine.
>> >> Today
>> >> I would just use my scanner and add it to my MS Word document.
>> >>
>> >
>> >
>> >I give him the benefit of the doubt - he saw what he wanted to see.
>> >
>> >
>> >> No, I think Dan Rather was putting his reputation behind a known
>> >> forgery, to give it credence, and to hurt the Republican party. I hope
>> >> it now results in his finally being put out to pasture (which should
>have
>> >> happened 10 years ago anyway). Same with the other scum-bags on
>> >> 60 minutes, who are always making a mountain out of a mole hill.
>> >>
>> >>
>> >
>> >I'm sure he has no qualms about hurting the Republican party, but I still
>> >think it unlikely he knew.
>> >
>> >Jarg
>>
>> Nothing to know. These were the real thing. The rest is just the usual
>Neocon
>> spin.
>>
>
>Hey, what's a neocon?

Art doesn't have a definition and isn't man enough to say so.

Dan, U. S. Air Force, retired

[Kevin Brooks]

"B2431" > wrote in message
...
> >From: "Kevin Brooks"
> >Date: 9/12/2004 9:40 PM Central Daylight Time
> >Message-id: >
> >
> >
> >"ArtKramr" > wrote in message
> ...
> >> >Subject: Re: Dan Rather forges ahead
> >> >From: (B2431)
> >> >Date: 9/12/2004 6:17 PM Pacific Standard Time
> >> >Message-id: >
> >> >
> >> >>From: (ArtKramr)
> >> >>Date: 9/12/2004 7:15 PM Central Daylight Time
> >> >>Message-id: >
> >> >>
> >> >>
> >> >>> typical non answer from someone who refuses to respond to
questions,
> >who
> >> >>>disrespects himself and others, who behaves as a child and breaks
his
> >> >>>promises.
> >> >>>
> >> >>>Dan, U.S. Air Force, retired
> >> >>
> >> >>
> >> >>What did you say you did in the Air Force?
> >> >>
> >> >>
> >> >>Arthur Kramer
> >> >>
> >> >
> >> >Actually I have given you the answer to that at least once before. I
> >don't
> >> >expect you to admit it since you are not an honourable man.
> >> >
> >> >What did you say a neocon is? If you don't know the answer at least be
> >man
> >> >enough to say so.
> >> >
> >> >Dan, U. S. Air Force, retired
> >> >
> >>
> >> Typical no answer answer.
> >
> >Bwahaha! Coming from the undisputed and still "King of Refusing to Answer
> >Direct Questions", that is a hoot, Cosmo! What did you say a neocon was
> >again? Ooops--shouldn't have put in that "again", should I? You never
> >answered it the first time...or the second...or the forty-eighth time...
At
> >some point you are really gonna have to stop using words you can't
> >understand the meaning of.
> >
> >Brooks
> >
> >> Arthur Kramer
>
> You mean like the time last week he called clinton a combat veteran for
> fighting impeachment? He lost that fight.

Yeah, Art is sometimes the very embodiment of the "one legged man at an ass
kicking contest" characterization.

Brooks

>
> Dan, U.S. Air Force, retired

[John Keeney]

"Cub Driver" > wrote in message
...
> On Sun, 12 Sep 2004 11:42:18 -0500, "Bob Coe" > wrote:
>
> >Someone called it "Rathergate" and I thought this was pretty funny, since
> >CBS attaches -gate to just about everything political.
>
> It's astonishing how little play this story is getting. Compare how
> excited the networks and the newspapers got about Republicans'
> contributing (oh no!) to the Swifties advertising pot.
>
> But here is CBS News, where Walter Cronkite once reigned, peddling
> forgeries that very likely were created by the Kerry campaign. But
> when you Google "CBS forgeries", the returns you get are all from
> second-tier newspapers with Republican proclivities, like the New York
> Post.

Well, Dan, it's not like Cronkite didn't slant the news to fit his
political agenda.

> There was one good story in the Washington Post. (The post, for all
> its overt partisanship, is a very honest newspaper.) I'd be very
> grateful if anyone could point me to stories in the New Times or Los
> Angeles Times, for example.
> all the best -- Dan Ford

[BUFDRVR]

Jim Yanik wrote:

>I suspect he didn't even READ the articles I listed.
>

Art doesn't read anything. If I didn't believe he was actually a qualified B-26
Bombardier I'd suspect he *couldn't* read.


BUFDRVR

"Stay on the bomb run boys, I'm gonna get those bomb doors open if it harelips
everyone on Bear Creek"

[Jim Yanik]

"John Keeney" > wrote in
:

>
> "Cub Driver" > wrote in message
> ...
>> On Sun, 12 Sep 2004 11:42:18 -0500, "Bob Coe" > wrote:
>>
>> >Someone called it "Rathergate" and I thought this was pretty funny,
>> >since CBS attaches -gate to just about everything political.
>>
>> It's astonishing how little play this story is getting. Compare how
>> excited the networks and the newspapers got about Republicans'
>> contributing (oh no!) to the Swifties advertising pot.
>>
>> But here is CBS News, where Walter Cronkite once reigned, peddling
>> forgeries that very likely were created by the Kerry campaign. But
>> when you Google "CBS forgeries", the returns you get are all from
>> second-tier newspapers with Republican proclivities, like the New
>> York Post.
>
> Well, Dan, it's not like Cronkite didn't slant the news to fit his
> political agenda.
>
>> There was one good story in the Washington Post. (The post, for all
>> its overt partisanship, is a very honest newspaper.) I'd be very
>> grateful if anyone could point me to stories in the New Times or Los
>> Angeles Times, for example.
>> all the best -- Dan Ford
>
>
>

ABC had a piece on the forgeries,a very good one,that detailed several
things wrong with them,but that was yesterday,and the URL is not good
today.
I would not consider ABC to have "Republican proclivities".

--
Jim Yanik
jyanik-at-kua.net

[Marc Reeve]

Tom Cervo wrote:

>>Flynn said it's "very unlikely" that the memos are legit, adding that
>>he knows of no typewriter fonts using proportionally spaced Roman type
>>with a raised "th" available in the 1970s.
>
>
> Come off it, Dan, anyone who used a typewriter knew the trick of lifting the
> roller a smidge (or lowering it) for sub (or super) script. You must not have
> ever typed footnotes.

The problem is, the superscript in question is in a smaller type, rather than
in the same size type as it would be in the example you cite.

8-point vs. 12 point.

[Steve Hix]

In article >,
Bill Jameson > wrote:

> BUFDRVR wrote:
> > Tom Cervo wrote:
> >
> >
> >>Come off it, Dan, anyone who used a typewriter knew the trick of lifting
> >>the
> >>roller a smidge (or lowering it) for sub (or super) script. You must not
> >>have
> >>ever typed footnotes.
> >
> >
> > The issue isn't the raised "th", but the fact that the "th" is written in a
> > smaller font as well.
>
> From 1968 on SMC (Smith Corona) typewriters had two optional keyface
> slots (shift one and shift +) for a number of optional letters, accents
> and marks. I had section and paragraph marks on mine as I clerked in a
> law office. "rd" and "nd" superscripts were also available.

Did they also offer proportional spacing and intercharacter kerning?

[B2431]

>From: Steve Hix

>Did they also offer proportional spacing and intercharacter kerning?

Hey, watch the language.

Dan, U.S. Air Force, retired

[Cub Driver]

On Mon, 13 Sep 2004 09:36:12 -0400, Bill Jameson
> wrote:

> From 1968 on SMC (Smith Corona) typewriters had two optional keyface
>slots (shift one and shift +) for a number of optional letters, accents
>and marks. I had section and paragraph marks on mine as I clerked in a
>law office. "rd" and "nd" superscripts were also available.

Bill, you're part way to a $10,000 reward! Go to www.vivabush.org and
see how to collect.

all the best -- Dan Ford
email: (put Cubdriver in subject line)

The Warbird's Forum www.warbirdforum.com
Expedition sailboat charters www.expeditionsail.com

[Bill Jameson]

Steve Hix wrote:
> In article >,
> Bill Jameson > wrote:
>
>
>>BUFDRVR wrote:
>>
>>>Tom Cervo wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>>Come off it, Dan, anyone who used a typewriter knew the trick of lifting
>>>>the
>>>>roller a smidge (or lowering it) for sub (or super) script. You must not
>>>>have
>>>>ever typed footnotes.
>>>
>>>
>>>The issue isn't the raised "th", but the fact that the "th" is written in a
>>>smaller font as well.
>>
>> From 1968 on SMC (Smith Corona) typewriters had two optional keyface
>>slots (shift one and shift +) for a number of optional letters, accents
>>and marks. I had section and paragraph marks on mine as I clerked in a
>>law office. "rd" and "nd" superscripts were also available.
>
>
> Did they also offer proportional spacing and intercharacter kerning?

Well, contemporary to the SCM typewriters above, the IBM Executive
models did have proportional spacing and intercharacter kerning. These
were typebar models (not typeball like the IBM Selectric) The backspace
on the one I used would move 1/5 of the width of the letter "w."

I do not know if any of the IBM Executives had something similar to the
optional keyspace slots on the SCM. The one I used certainly didn't as I
can still remember making section mark symbols with capital 'S,'
backspace, backspace, backspace, roll platten down, capital 'S.'

Bill Jameson

[Steve Hix]

In article >,
(B2431) wrote:

> >From: Steve Hix
>
> >Did they also offer proportional spacing and intercharacter kerning?
>
> Hey, watch the language.
>
> Dan, U.S. Air Force, retired

Sorry. Won't happen again.

[WaltBJ]

Gee, guess none of y'all ever used an IBM Selectric. We had them in
the USAF; that white-inked 'eraser tape' save me a lot rpt lot of time
doing my hunt-n-peck routine on flight examiner reports, ERs, etc. And
yes we had a bunch of different type balls for them.
Walt BJ

[Kevin Brooks]

"WaltBJ" > wrote in message
om...
> Gee, guess none of y'all ever used an IBM Selectric. We had them in
> the USAF; that white-inked 'eraser tape' save me a lot rpt lot of time
> doing my hunt-n-peck routine on flight examiner reports, ERs, etc. And
> yes we had a bunch of different type balls for them.
> Walt BJ

Then you apparently know so much more than all of the various experts who
have been raising an eyebrow about this. BTW, did you commonly switch out
the ball to do something like, say, type in a smaller font supersxcript in
the middle of the document?

Not that it means much--even Killian's secretary, ironically an anti-Bush
type herself, has now come out and said they appear to be forgeries, and
backing his family's claim that he was no typist himself.

Brooks

[Bob Coe]

We didn't get our first one till about 1980, and they wouldn't let
us put it on the deployment kit. Had to have a manual in the WRS
kit.

We also had letterhead, and titless WAF's.

"WaltBJ" > wrote
> Gee, guess none of y'all ever used an IBM Selectric. We had them in
> the USAF; that white-inked 'eraser tape' save me a lot rpt lot of time
> doing my hunt-n-peck routine on flight examiner reports, ERs, etc. And
> yes we had a bunch of different type balls for them.
> Walt BJ