Now the neocons are inventng forgeries

[ArtKramr]

What a disgusting bunch of liares those Neocons are.


Arthur Kramer
344th BG 494th BS
England, France, Belgium, Holland, Germany
Visit my WW II B-26 website at:
http://www.coastcomp.com/artkramer

[Brett]

"ArtKramr" > wants to know.

[Raoul]

In article >, ArtKramr
> wrote:

> What a disgusting bunch of liares those Neocons are.
>
>
> Arthur Kramer
> 344th BG 494th BS
> England, France, Belgium, Holland, Germany
> Visit my WW II B-26 website at:
> http://www.coastcomp.com/artkramer

Now we have Artie chiming in...

And, ya know what, Artie, based on the logic that you have shown
elsewhere lately, neither one of these guys should be President of the
United States because the military experience of both men does not
include flights over Europe as a bombadier in a B-26 so they both are
obviously spineless, coward, wannabes.

What I find so off-****ing in this whole thing is that my worse dream
seems to be coming true...

You see, I'm a Kerry supporter. A few months ago, it seemed to me that
the race was Kerry's to win- unless he screwed up. It now appears to me
that he has. Damn.

Here's my thoughts on the military situation on these two guys. Take it
or leave it and **** ya if ya can't take a joke. John Kerry won some
medals. Seems to me that he earned them. But, in and of itself, medals
don't mean a heck of a lot except that a man did something exceptional
on a particular day. He may or may not be of overall greater
character. The awards could be a symbol of a man's inner gallantry and
character. I choose to view it this way. However, they could mean that
a criminal, amoral ******* sucked it up and did something right on a
particular day.

About medals in general, I have to differ to my friend, Ray. He
started as a groundpounder back in Korea as a 19 year old kid and,
using his GI Bill, became a teacher but eventually reentered the
Reserves because he just plain liked the Army.and being a soldier. He
eventually was the 'oldest drill sergeant in the Army' at age 56 and
then retired out of the Army as a first sergeant at age 62. He was in
at the beginning of Desert Storm and, as one after another of his drill
sergeants was called active, he prepared himself to go even though he
was an old man who had clearly done his duty in the past. A soldier
serves and he was getting ready. He cried when he retired. Not that he
was happy but that he was sad that he could no longer be a soldier.

Not sure if Ray won any medals other than the basics because he never
talked about them and I never saw any on his memento boards he has up
in his house. Seems as well as combat, he really shined at dealing with
all the government paper that the Army generates. As a paper pushin'
soldier, he said he pushed through lots of awards that may or may not
have been earned. He said that the basic rule on awards is that the
'worse the war is going, the more medals are awarded". He gave me some
figures which I don't have to share right now but it was amazing to me
the number of medals given out in Vietnam as opposed to Korea and WWII.

Kerry's medals may or may not mean ****. I think that they do but you
are quite welcome to disagree with me. Seems that the strategy to focus
on military experience has backfired badly on his campaign. This
cockamamy thing on 60 Minutes trying to paint the drunken fratboy of a
man that was W as a young man as some sort of AWOL Daddy's boy. is
ludacrous. If you are going to make charges, at least make sure that
they are relly true and substantiated. Geez, he probably was and many
others used influence or class or raw brains to get out of active
service. Do the names Dan "Mr. Potatoe Head" Quayle and Bill "I got
the brains to get into Oxford" Clinton ring a bell? And, to think, the
American people elected Clinton to be Commander-in-Chief of the Armed
Forces- twice! If you don't call that military service, you don't
believe in the fundamental idea of a civilian controlled military as
provided by the Constitution.

Which leads me to W. I didn't vote for him but it seems by our American
system, very few more people voted for him as for my man Gore and W
became President. By definition, W is commander of the military and, as
military service goes, that's enough for me. Personally, I am against
him for his decisions now as commander in chief and not as a guy who
may or may not have ditched some drills 30 years ago. (I guess when
your old man is a Senator, head of the CIA and rich as all hell, you
kinda get a feeling of entitlement to a few Mulligans, much like Bubba
used to do frequently on the golf course.)

I hope I've laid out the background of my off-****edness. I think the
"Swift Boat Veterans" stuff was and is a diversion to change the
subject from W's performance as President and Commander in Chief. This
new stuff about W's service should never have been brought up because I
don't know if it makes any difference. And the fact that there is a
really good chance that the documents were complete bull**** makes it
even worse. I'm not happy with Kerry but I sure don't like the
direction W has us going.

Remember when I said it was my opinion the the race was Kerry's to
lose? I'm afraid he has just screwed the pooch.

ObAviation: I'm riding my motorbike up Whidbey Island today and hope I
see some cool Navy stuff flying overhead as I go by the Naval Air
Station.

raoul

[Kevin Brooks]

"ArtKramr" > wrote in message
...
> What a disgusting bunch of liares those Neocons are.

Evidence? Lots of pretty solid evidence supporting the forgery claims (not
just the typeface, but now the fact that one of the addressees was not even
in the service at the time the supposed memo was written to him) has been
made known, but you curiously have nothing beyond "Dan Rather says it was
so"? One thing is for certain, though--you are indeed an authority on the
subject of "lying", given your propensity to do it yourself so much.

Brooks

>
>
> Arthur Kramer

[Jack G]

Art -

Do you have any direct experience analyzing documents? Have you looked at
the documents in question? Did you have a typewriter in your B-26? If not,
you are not qualified and have no right to comment on the authenticity of
the documents in question. Take it somewhere else, wannabe!

Jack G.



"ArtKramr" > wrote in message
...
> What a disgusting bunch of liares those Neocons are.
>
>
> Arthur Kramer
> 344th BG 494th BS
> England, France, Belgium, Holland, Germany
> Visit my WW II B-26 website at:
> http://www.coastcomp.com/artkramer
>

[B2431]

>From: (ArtKramr)
>Date: 9/11/2004 6:58 AM Central Daylight Time
>Message-id: >
>
>What a disgusting bunch of liares those Neocons are.
>
>
>Arthur Kramer

I get it now, neocons are democrats. After all THEY are the ones presenting the
forgeries.

Hey, art, why did you break your promise to not initiate threats like this?

Dan, U.S. Air Force, retired

[Ian MacLure]

(ArtKramr) wrote in news:20040911075858.15758.00000385@mb-
m13.aol.com:

> What a disgusting bunch of liares those Neocons are.

I suppose I'd be wasting my time pointing out
this isn't doing your rep any good. Particularly
in light of the constant stream of revelations
confirming almost beyond discussion ( except for senile
old loons ) that the documents are forgeries by incompetents.

IBM

__________________________________________________ _____________________________
Posted Via Uncensored-News.Com - Accounts Starting At $6.95 - http://www.uncensored-news.com
<><><><><><><> The Worlds Uncensored News Source <><><><><><><><>

[ArtKramr]

>Subject: Re: Now the neocons are inventng forgeries
>From: Ian MacLure
>Date: 9/11/2004 2:31 PM Pacific Standard Time
>Message-id: >
>
(ArtKramr) wrote in news:20040911075858.15758.00000385@mb-
>m13.aol.com:
>
>> What a disgusting bunch of liares those Neocons are.
>
> I suppose I'd be wasting my time pointing out
> this isn't doing your rep any good. Particularly
> in light of the constant stream of revelations
> confirming almost beyond discussion ( except for senile
> old loons ) that the documents are forgeries by incompetents.
>
> IBM
>
>

My "rep" as you put it seems to be a matter of constant concern for you. My rep
is important to me. But only among certain select groups. My rep as far as the
crew I flew with is very important to me as well as Maj. Foote my squadron
(494th) commander and Colonel Wittty my group commander. And also important are
my students at the New School for Social Research in New York where I taught
for many years, and the readers of my articles in Modern Photography magazine
were also important to me. Also my website and its readers which have just
reached 60,000 hits and is used as a study text in the history department at
UNLV. Note that you are not on the list. But I assure you that I mean no
offense in leaving you off the list. It's nothing personal.


Arthur Kramer
344th BG 494th BS
England, France, Belgium, Holland, Germany
Visit my WW II B-26 website at:
http://www.coastcomp.com/artkramer

[Steven P. McNicoll]

"Ian MacLure" > wrote in message
...
>
> I suppose I'd be wasting my time pointing out
> this isn't doing your rep any good.
>

Nor is it doing his rep any harm.

[B2431]

>From: "Steven P. McNicoll"
>Date: 9/11/2004 6:15 PM Central Daylight Time
>Message-id: t>
>
>
>"Ian MacLure" > wrote in message
...
>>
>> I suppose I'd be wasting my time pointing out
>> this isn't doing your rep any good.
>>
>
>Nor is it doing his rep any harm.

How can one ruin the reputation of an insecure, lying hypocrite?

Dan, U. S. Air Force, retired

[Orval Fairbairn]

In article >,
"Brett" > wrote:

> "ArtKramr" > wants to know.
>
>

An alternative idea: Trojan Horse. Maybe the Bush campaign conjured them
up on a wordprocessor and "leaked" them to CBS, which is so eager to get
a scoop. CBS, in their greed for a story, swallowed the poison bait,
which the Gov't quickly exposed so as to embarrass CBS (a well-deserved
embarrassment, IMHO).


I have to laugh (and cry) at both sides for their shenanigans in this
campaign.

[Kevin Brooks]

"Orval Fairbairn" > wrote in message
...
> In article >,
> "Brett" > wrote:
>
> > "ArtKramr" > wants to know.
> >
> >
>
> An alternative idea: Trojan Horse. Maybe the Bush campaign conjured them
> up on a wordprocessor and "leaked" them to CBS, which is so eager to get
> a scoop. CBS, in their greed for a story, swallowed the poison bait,
> which the Gov't quickly exposed so as to embarrass CBS (a well-deserved
> embarrassment, IMHO).
>
>
> I have to laugh (and cry) at both sides for their shenanigans in this
> campaign.

Actually, I believe Terry "Horse's Ass" McAuliffe (why the dems kept his
sorry butt around after getting shellacked in the 2002 elections is a real
wonder) or one of his primary henchmen has already raised that scenario. One
day he, along with Tom Harkin (who IIRC was the guy who got lambasted by his
fellow dems years ago when he was vying for the Presidential nomination
himself, and tried to claim he was a Vietnam vet--only to find out his only
exposure to Vietnam had been to deliver a couple of aircraft to Danang as a
ferry pilot) is using those memos to try and hammer GWB, the next they start
ruminating that maybe the Bush campaign planted the memos themselves. What a
comic opera the DNC has devolved into these days...

Brooks

[Bill Phillips]

It seems to me that Vietnam is a negative for both candidates.

Faced with the threat of conscription into land combat in Vietnam they both
volunteered for a job that they expected to keep them safe and comfortable.
Bush's plan worked, which is the end of the story, for everyone but the
tinfoil hat brigade. Kerry's was only partially successful, which makes
things more complex, but not much.

The big difference is that whereas Bush admits to a misspent youth and wants
to talk about what he has done recently, Kerry has made Vietnam a major part
of his campaign.

Personally I think Bush is correct and people should decided on the basis of
what the candidates have done recently.

[Brett]

"Orval Fairbairn" > wrote:
> In article >,
> "Brett" > wrote:
>
> > "ArtKramr" > wants to know.
> >
> >
>
> An alternative idea: Trojan Horse. Maybe the Bush campaign conjured them
> up on a wordprocessor and "leaked" them to CBS, which is so eager to get
> a scoop. CBS, in their greed for a story, swallowed the poison bait,
> which the Gov't quickly exposed so as to embarrass CBS (a well-deserved
> embarrassment, IMHO).

If Terry McAuliffe didn't have a position in the Democratic organization you
might be able to convince someone. But since the Democrats have Terry on the
payroll you have to go with them as being the source.

[Scott Ferrin]

On 11 Sep 2004 11:58:58 GMT, (ArtKramr) wrote:

>What a disgusting bunch of liares those Neocons are.



I take it your referring to the Democrats? They ARE the ones peddling
them after all.






>
>
>Arthur Kramer
>344th BG 494th BS
> England, France, Belgium, Holland, Germany
>Visit my WW II B-26 website at:
>http://www.coastcomp.com/artkramer

[BUFDRVR]

ArtKramr wrote:

>Also my website and its readers which have just
>reached 60,000 hits and is used as a study text in the history department at
>UNLV.

Remind me to never engage a UNLV History degree holder on WW II. The discussion
will be too inaccurate and way too familiar.


BUFDRVR

"Stay on the bomb run boys, I'm gonna get those bomb doors open if it harelips
everyone on Bear Creek"

[ArtKramr]

>Subject: Re: Now the neocons are inventng forgeries
>From: (BUFDRVR)
>Date: 9/12/2004 4:52 PM Pacific Standard Time
>Message-id: >
>
>ArtKramr wrote:
>
>>Also my website and its readers which have just
>>reached 60,000 hits and is used as a study text in the history department at
>>UNLV.
>
>Remind me to never engage a UNLV History degree holder on WW II. The
>discussion
>will be too inaccurate and way too familiar.
>
>
>BUFDRVR


Why would anyone interested in WW II want to discuss it with you?


Arthur Kramer
344th BG 494th BS
England, France, Belgium, Holland, Germany
Visit my WW II B-26 website at:
http://www.coastcomp.com/artkramer

[Jack G]

"BUFDRVR" > wrote in message
...
> ArtKramr wrote:
>
> >Also my website and its readers which have just
> >reached 60,000 hits and is used as a study text in the history department
at
> >UNLV.
>
> Remind me to never engage a UNLV History degree holder on WW II. The
discussion
> will be too inaccurate and way too familiar.
>
>
> BUFDRVR
>
> "Stay on the bomb run boys, I'm gonna get those bomb doors open if it
harelips
> everyone on Bear Creek"

Maybe he meant the Creative Writing Department...

Jack G

[Jim Thomas]

I'm a Bush supporter. But I think that what you just said makes more
sense than most of the political posts on this newsgroup. I'm proud to
have you as a political/philosophical adversary. And an American.

Jim Thomas

Raoul > wrote in message >...
> In article >, ArtKramr
> > wrote:
>
> > What a disgusting bunch of liares those Neocons are.
> >
> >
> > Arthur Kramer
> > 344th BG 494th BS
> > England, France, Belgium, Holland, Germany
> > Visit my WW II B-26 website at:
> > http://www.coastcomp.com/artkramer
>
> Now we have Artie chiming in...
>
> And, ya know what, Artie, based on the logic that you have shown
> elsewhere lately, neither one of these guys should be President of the
> United States because the military experience of both men does not
> include flights over Europe as a bombadier in a B-26 so they both are
> obviously spineless, coward, wannabes.
>
> What I find so off-****ing in this whole thing is that my worse dream
> seems to be coming true...
>
> You see, I'm a Kerry supporter. A few months ago, it seemed to me that
> the race was Kerry's to win- unless he screwed up. It now appears to me
> that he has. Damn.
>
> Here's my thoughts on the military situation on these two guys. Take it
> or leave it and **** ya if ya can't take a joke. John Kerry won some
> medals. Seems to me that he earned them. But, in and of itself, medals
> don't mean a heck of a lot except that a man did something exceptional
> on a particular day. He may or may not be of overall greater
> character. The awards could be a symbol of a man's inner gallantry and
> character. I choose to view it this way. However, they could mean that
> a criminal, amoral ******* sucked it up and did something right on a
> particular day.
>
> About medals in general, I have to differ to my friend, Ray. He
> started as a groundpounder back in Korea as a 19 year old kid and,
> using his GI Bill, became a teacher but eventually reentered the
> Reserves because he just plain liked the Army.and being a soldier. He
> eventually was the 'oldest drill sergeant in the Army' at age 56 and
> then retired out of the Army as a first sergeant at age 62. He was in
> at the beginning of Desert Storm and, as one after another of his drill
> sergeants was called active, he prepared himself to go even though he
> was an old man who had clearly done his duty in the past. A soldier
> serves and he was getting ready. He cried when he retired. Not that he
> was happy but that he was sad that he could no longer be a soldier.
>
> Not sure if Ray won any medals other than the basics because he never
> talked about them and I never saw any on his memento boards he has up
> in his house. Seems as well as combat, he really shined at dealing with
> all the government paper that the Army generates. As a paper pushin'
> soldier, he said he pushed through lots of awards that may or may not
> have been earned. He said that the basic rule on awards is that the
> 'worse the war is going, the more medals are awarded". He gave me some
> figures which I don't have to share right now but it was amazing to me
> the number of medals given out in Vietnam as opposed to Korea and WWII.
>
> Kerry's medals may or may not mean ****. I think that they do but you
> are quite welcome to disagree with me. Seems that the strategy to focus
> on military experience has backfired badly on his campaign. This
> cockamamy thing on 60 Minutes trying to paint the drunken fratboy of a
> man that was W as a young man as some sort of AWOL Daddy's boy. is
> ludacrous. If you are going to make charges, at least make sure that
> they are relly true and substantiated. Geez, he probably was and many
> others used influence or class or raw brains to get out of active
> service. Do the names Dan "Mr. Potatoe Head" Quayle and Bill "I got
> the brains to get into Oxford" Clinton ring a bell? And, to think, the
> American people elected Clinton to be Commander-in-Chief of the Armed
> Forces- twice! If you don't call that military service, you don't
> believe in the fundamental idea of a civilian controlled military as
> provided by the Constitution.
>
> Which leads me to W. I didn't vote for him but it seems by our American
> system, very few more people voted for him as for my man Gore and W
> became President. By definition, W is commander of the military and, as
> military service goes, that's enough for me. Personally, I am against
> him for his decisions now as commander in chief and not as a guy who
> may or may not have ditched some drills 30 years ago. (I guess when
> your old man is a Senator, head of the CIA and rich as all hell, you
> kinda get a feeling of entitlement to a few Mulligans, much like Bubba
> used to do frequently on the golf course.)
>
> I hope I've laid out the background of my off-****edness. I think the
> "Swift Boat Veterans" stuff was and is a diversion to change the
> subject from W's performance as President and Commander in Chief. This
> new stuff about W's service should never have been brought up because I
> don't know if it makes any difference. And the fact that there is a
> really good chance that the documents were complete bull**** makes it
> even worse. I'm not happy with Kerry but I sure don't like the
> direction W has us going.
>
> Remember when I said it was my opinion the the race was Kerry's to
> lose? I'm afraid he has just screwed the pooch.
>
> ObAviation: I'm riding my motorbike up Whidbey Island today and hope I
> see some cool Navy stuff flying overhead as I go by the Naval Air
> Station.
>
> raoul

[B2431]

>From: (ArtKramr)
>Date: 9/12/2004 7:05 PM Central Daylight Time
>Message-id: >
>
>>Subject: Re: Now the neocons are inventng forgeries
>>From: (BUFDRVR)
>>Date: 9/12/2004 4:52 PM Pacific Standard Time
>>Message-id: >
>>
>>ArtKramr wrote:
>>
>>>Also my website and its readers which have just
>>>reached 60,000 hits and is used as a study text in the history department
>at
>>>UNLV.
>>
>>Remind me to never engage a UNLV History degree holder on WW II. The
>>discussion
>>will be too inaccurate and way too familiar.
>>
>>
>>BUFDRVR
>
>
>Why would anyone interested in WW II want to discuss it with you?
>
>
>Arthur Kramer

Perhaps UNLV uses your site as an example of a biased source created by a
blowhard.

Tell us again how the war couldn't have been won without you.

Dan, U.S. Air Force, retired

[ArtKramr]

>Subject: Re: Now the neocons are inventng forgeries
>From: (B2431)
>Date: 9/12/2004 6:25 PM Pacific Standard Time
>Message-id: >
>
>>From: (ArtKramr)
>>Date: 9/12/2004 7:05 PM Central Daylight Time
>>Message-id: >
>>
>>>Subject: Re: Now the neocons are inventng forgeries
>>>From: (BUFDRVR)
>>>Date: 9/12/2004 4:52 PM Pacific Standard Time
>>>Message-id: >
>>>
>>>ArtKramr wrote:
>>>
>>>>Also my website and its readers which have just
>>>>reached 60,000 hits and is used as a study text in the history department
>>at
>>>>UNLV.
>>>
>>>Remind me to never engage a UNLV History degree holder on WW II. The
>>>discussion
>>>will be too inaccurate and way too familiar.
>>>
>>>
>>>BUFDRVR
>>
>>
>>Why would anyone interested in WW II want to discuss it with you?
>>
>>
>>Arthur Kramer
>
>Perhaps UNLV uses your site as an example of a biased source created by a
>blowhard.
>
>Tell us again how the war couldn't have been won without you.
>
>Dan, U.S. Air Force, retired


Sure could have been won without you.


Arthur Kramer
344th BG 494th BS
England, France, Belgium, Holland, Germany
Visit my WW II B-26 website at:
http://www.coastcomp.com/artkramer

[B2431]

>From: (ArtKramr)
>Date: 9/12/2004 8:44 PM Central Daylight Time
>Message-id: >
>
>>Subject: Re: Now the neocons are inventng forgeries
>>From: (B2431)
>>Date: 9/12/2004 6:25 PM Pacific Standard Time
>>Message-id: >
>>
>>>From: (ArtKramr)
>>>Date: 9/12/2004 7:05 PM Central Daylight Time
>>>Message-id: >
>>>
>>>>Subject: Re: Now the neocons are inventng forgeries
>>>>From: (BUFDRVR)
>>>>Date: 9/12/2004 4:52 PM Pacific Standard Time
>>>>Message-id: >
>>>>
>>>>ArtKramr wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>Also my website and its readers which have just
>>>>>reached 60,000 hits and is used as a study text in the history department
>>>at
>>>>>UNLV.
>>>>
>>>>Remind me to never engage a UNLV History degree holder on WW II. The
>>>>discussion
>>>>will be too inaccurate and way too familiar.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>BUFDRVR
>>>
>>>
>>>Why would anyone interested in WW II want to discuss it with you?
>>>
>>>
>>>Arthur Kramer
>>
>>Perhaps UNLV uses your site as an example of a biased source created by a
>>blowhard.
>>
>>Tell us again how the war couldn't have been won without you.
>>
>>Dan, U.S. Air Force, retired
>
>
>Sure could have been won without you.
>
>
>Arthur Kramer

It was.

Dan, U.S. Air Force, retired

[ArtKramr]

>Subject: Re: Now the neocons are inventng forgeries
>From: Ian MacLure
>Date: 9/12/2004 7:28 PM Pacific Standard Time
>Message-id: >
>
(ArtKramr) wrote in
:
>
> [snip]
>
>> My "rep" as you put it seems to be a matter of constant concern for
>
> I personally could give a rats ass about your particular rep.
> I just don't like seeing people throw them away.
>
>> you. My rep is important to me. But only among certain select groups.
>> My rep as far as the crew I flew with is very important to me as well
>> as Maj. Foote my squadron (494th) commander and Colonel Wittty my
>> group commander. And also important are my students at the New School
>> for Social Research in New York where I taught for many years, and
>
> Ahh, a social scientist! That figures. Many fields rife with
> pseudo-data leading to questionable conclusions more based on
> politics than reality.
>
>> the readers of my articles in Modern Photography magazine were also
>
> Here we're on safer ground. Maybe you should stick to subjects
> you know.
>
>> important to me. Also my website and its readers which have just
>> reached 60,000 hits and is used as a study text in the history
>> department at UNLV. Note that you are not on the list. But I assure
>> you that I mean no offense in leaving you off the list. It's nothing
>> personal.
>
> I care not one way or the other.
> Just don't expect me to allow you to pedal your political
> perversions here.
>
> Trotskerry is toast.
> There is nothing you personally can do about it.
> Get used to the idea.
>
> IBM

You Bush leaguers don't stand a chance.


Arthur Kramer
344th BG 494th BS
England, France, Belgium, Holland, Germany
Visit my WW II B-26 website at:
http://www.coastcomp.com/artkramer

[BUFDRVR]

ArtKramr wrote:

>Why would anyone interested in WW II want to discuss it with you?

Because I'm knowledgeable on the subject, in fact I know more about it than at
least 1 B-26 bombardier, although that really isn't saying much.


BUFDRVR

"Stay on the bomb run boys, I'm gonna get those bomb doors open if it harelips
everyone on Bear Creek"

[ArtKramr]

>Subject: Re: Now the neocons are inventng forgeries
>From: (BUFDRVR)
>Date: 9/13/2004 2:40 PM Pacific Standard Time
>Message-id: >
>
>ArtKramr wrote:
>
>>Why would anyone interested in WW II want to discuss it with you?
>
>Because I'm knowledgeable on the subject, in fact I know more about it than
>at
>least 1 B-26 bombardier, although that really isn't saying much.
>
>
>BUFDRVR
>
>"Stay on the bomb run boys, I'm gonna get those bomb doors open if it
>harelips
>everyone on Bear Creek"
>

You don't understand cabdrvr. WW II was a real shooting war. You may not
believe this but men went out on missions and some never came back. Hard to
believe since that is war outside your personal experience. But believe me, it
is true. I believe personal experience is worth more than just reading books.
But maybe you should read a few books on WW II and find out what a real
shooting war is all about Of course the book will never give you the feeling
you might get over the heavily defended Cologne marshalling yards, but try to
imagine what it was like. If you can't experience it, you can at least dream
about it. Then you can tell everyone how much you know about WW II.


Arthur Kramer
344th BG 494th BS
England, France, Belgium, Holland, Germany
Visit my WW II B-26 website at:
http://www.coastcomp.com/artkramer

[OXMORON1]

Art wrote:
>You don't understand cabdrvr. WW II was a real shooting war. You may not
>believe this but men went out on missions and some never came back. Hard to
>believe since that is war outside your personal experience.

Hey Art,
Revolutionary War, War of 1812, Mexican War, Civil War, Spanish American War,
WWI, Korea, Vietnam, Desert Storm and others were all "Shooting Wars". What
gives you the expertise on ALL wars?
ETO in WWII also consisted of more than B-26 missions.
Your service is appreciated, but you are not the fountain of all knowledge
about war and definitely not an expert about all things military.
For the past year you have been presenting yourself as a bitter old man.
What the hell is up with you?

Rick Clark

[ArtKramr]

>Subject: Re: Now the neocons are inventng forgeries
>From: (OXMORON1)
>Date: 9/14/2004 6:24 AM Pacific Standard Time
>Message-id: >
>
>Art wrote:
>>You don't understand cabdrvr. WW II was a real shooting war. You may not
>>believe this but men went out on missions and some never came back. Hard to
>>believe since that is war outside your personal experience.
>
>Hey Art,
>Revolutionary War, War of 1812, Mexican War, Civil War, Spanish American War,
>WWI, Korea, Vietnam, Desert Storm and others were all "Shooting Wars". What
>gives you the expertise on ALL wars?
>ETO in WWII also consisted of more than B-26 missions.
>Your service is appreciated, but you are not the fountain of all knowledge
>about war and definitely not an expert about all things military.
>For the past year you have been presenting yourself as a bitter old man.
>What the hell is up with you?
>
>Rick Clark
>

I'm not bitter at all. In fact I have had a very good,productive adventurious
life with a good deal of success along the way. And I am now comfortably
retired enjoying the university, my skeet shooting as well as a good deal of
photographic work. It is just that I never suffer fools gladly and care when my
country falls into evil incompetent hands. And I'll speak out clearly and
boldly in that case.


Arthur Kramer
344th BG 494th BS
England, France, Belgium, Holland, Germany
Visit my WW II B-26 website at:
http://www.coastcomp.com/artkramer

[Jack G]

Art,

Your problem and the reason for your screwed up perception is that you
equate emotional involvement with intellectual knowledge. No book will give
you the "feelings" associated with experiencing combat - although many come
close. Direct experience alone will not give you the in depth knowledge of
all aspects of a specific war that can be gained from reading and analyzing
the information that is available.

You experienced the emotions of combat. You refuse to experience or even
acknowledge that the intellectual / analytical side exists. That does not
make you a better person, it makes you a closed minded, vindictive, and
obnoxious little man who could be a positive example of a WW II veteran
instead of an embarrassment to those who honorably served their country in
uniform.

Jack G.

"ArtKramr" > wrote in message
...
> >Subject: Re: Now the neocons are inventng forgeries
> >From: (BUFDRVR)
> >Date: 9/13/2004 2:40 PM Pacific Standard Time
> >Message-id: >
> >
> >ArtKramr wrote:
> >
> >>Why would anyone interested in WW II want to discuss it with you?
> >
> >Because I'm knowledgeable on the subject, in fact I know more about it
than
> >at
> >least 1 B-26 bombardier, although that really isn't saying much.
> >
> >
> >BUFDRVR
> >
> >"Stay on the bomb run boys, I'm gonna get those bomb doors open if it
> >harelips
> >everyone on Bear Creek"
> >
>
> You don't understand cabdrvr. WW II was a real shooting war. You may not
> believe this but men went out on missions and some never came back. Hard
to
> believe since that is war outside your personal experience. But believe
me, it
> is true. I believe personal experience is worth more than just reading
books.
> But maybe you should read a few books on WW II and find out what a real
> shooting war is all about Of course the book will never give you the
feeling
> you might get over the heavily defended Cologne marshalling yards, but try
to
> imagine what it was like. If you can't experience it, you can at least
dream
> about it. Then you can tell everyone how much you know about WW II.
>
>
> Arthur Kramer
> 344th BG 494th BS
> England, France, Belgium, Holland, Germany
> Visit my WW II B-26 website at:
> http://www.coastcomp.com/artkramer
>

[ArtKramr]

>Subject: Re: Now the neocons are inventng forgeries
>From: "Jack G"
>Date: 9/14/2004 6:40 AM Pacific Standard Time
>Message-id: <TwC1d.3173$g9.2606@trnddc06>
>
>Art,
>
>Your problem and the reason for your screwed up perception is that you
>equate emotional involvement with intellectual knowledge. No book will give
>you the "feelings" associated with experiencing combat - although many come
>close. Direct experience alone will not give you the in depth knowledge of
>all aspects of a specific war that can be gained from reading and analyzing
>the information that is available.
>
>You experienced the emotions of combat. You refuse to experience or even
>acknowledge that the intellectual / analytical side exists. That does not
>make you a better person, it makes you a closed minded, vindictive, and
>obnoxious little man who could be a positive example of a WW II veteran
>instead of an embarrassment to those who honorably served their country in
>uniform.
>
>Jack G.
>
>"ArtKramr" > wrote in message
...
>> >Subject: Re: Now the neocons are inventng forgeries
>> >From: (BUFDRVR)
>> >Date: 9/13/2004 2:40 PM Pacific Standard Time
>> >Message-id: >
>> >
>> >ArtKramr wrote:
>> >
>> >>Why would anyone interested in WW II want to discuss it with you?
>> >
>> >Because I'm knowledgeable on the subject, in fact I know more about it
>than
>> >at
>> >least 1 B-26 bombardier, although that really isn't saying much.
>> >
>> >
>> >BUFDRVR
>> >
>> >"Stay on the bomb run boys, I'm gonna get those bomb doors open if it
>> >harelips
>> >everyone on Bear Creek"
>> >
>>
>> You don't understand cabdrvr. WW II was a real shooting war. You may not
>> believe this but men went out on missions and some never came back. Hard
>to
>> believe since that is war outside your personal experience. But believe
>me, it
>> is true. I believe personal experience is worth more than just reading
>books.
>> But maybe you should read a few books on WW II and find out what a real
>> shooting war is all about Of course the book will never give you the
>feeling
>> you might get over the heavily defended Cologne marshalling yards, but try
>to
>> imagine what it was like. If you can't experience it, you can at least
>dream
>> about it. Then you can tell everyone how much you know about WW II.
>>
>>
>> Arthur Kramer
>> 344th BG 494th BS
>> England, France, Belgium, Holland, Germany
>> Visit my WW II B-26 website at:
>> http://www.coastcomp.com/artkramer

Arthur Kramer
344th BG 494th BS
England, France, Belgium, Holland, Germany
Visit my WW II B-26 website at:
http://www.coastcomp.com/artkramer

[ArtKramr]

>ubject: Re: Now the neocons are inventng forgeries
>From: "Jack G"
>Date: 9/14/2004 6:40 AM Pacific Standard Time
>Message-id: <TwC1d.3173$g9.2606@trnddc06>
>

>Your problem and the reason for your screwed up perception is that you
>equate emotional involvement with intellectual knowledge. No book will give
>you the "feelings" associated with experiencing combat - although many come
>close. Direct experience alone will not give you the in depth knowledge of
>all aspects of a specific war that can be gained from reading and analyzing
>the information that is available.
>
>You experienced the emotions of combat. You refuse to experience or even
>acknowledge that the intellectual / analytical side exists. That does not
>make you a better person, it makes you a closed minded, vindictive, and
>obnoxious little man who could be a positive example of a WW II veteran
>instead of an embarrassment to those who honorably served their country in
>uniform.
>
>Jack G.
>

I responded to your post in a polite manner without personal insult of any
kind. You responded with a barrage of hate and vitriol indicating clearly that
it is you who are twisted and bitter. **** you. No offense of course.


Arthur Kramer
344th BG 494th BS
England, France, Belgium, Holland, Germany
Visit my WW II B-26 website at:
http://www.coastcomp.com/artkramer

[Steven P. McNicoll]

"OXMORON1" > wrote in message
...
>
> Hey Art,
> Revolutionary War, War of 1812, Mexican War, Civil War, Spanish American
> War,
> WWI, Korea, Vietnam, Desert Storm and others were all "Shooting Wars".
> What
> gives you the expertise on ALL wars?
> ETO in WWII also consisted of more than B-26 missions.
> Your service is appreciated, but you are not the fountain of all knowledge
> about war and definitely not an expert about all things military.
> For the past year you have been presenting yourself as a bitter old man.
> What the hell is up with you?
>

He's not even a reliable source on the B-26.

[ArtKramr]

>Subject: Re: Now the neocons are inventng forgeries
>From: "Steven P. McNicoll"
>Date: 9/14/2004 7:42 AM Pacific Standard Time
>Message-id: et>
>
>
>"OXMORON1" > wrote in message
...
>>
>> Hey Art,
>> Revolutionary War, War of 1812, Mexican War, Civil War, Spanish American
>> War,
>> WWI, Korea, Vietnam, Desert Storm and others were all "Shooting Wars".
>> What
>> gives you the expertise on ALL wars?
>> ETO in WWII also consisted of more than B-26 missions.
>> Your service is appreciated, but you are not the fountain of all knowledge
>> about war and definitely not an expert about all things military.
>> For the past year you have been presenting yourself as a bitter old man.
>> What the hell is up with you?
>>
>
>He's not even a reliable source on the B-26.


What did you say your combat record was?



Arthur Kramer
344th BG 494th BS
England, France, Belgium, Holland, Germany
Visit my WW II B-26 website at:
http://www.coastcomp.com/artkramer

[ArtKramr]

>Subject: Re: Now the neocons are inventng forgeries
>From: "Steven P. McNicoll"
>Date: 9/14/2004 7:42 AM Pacific Standard Time
>Message-id: et>
>
>
>"OXMORON1" > wrote in message
...
>>
>> Hey Art,
>> Revolutionary War, War of 1812, Mexican War, Civil War, Spanish American
>> War,
>> WWI, Korea, Vietnam, Desert Storm and others were all "Shooting Wars".
>> What
>> gives you the expertise on ALL wars?
>> ETO in WWII also consisted of more than B-26 missions.
>> Your service is appreciated, but you are not the fountain of all knowledge
>> about war and definitely not an expert about all things military.
>> For the past year you have been presenting yourself as a bitter old man.
>> What the hell is up with you?
>>
>
>He's not even a reliable source on the B-26.


How would you know? How would you know anything wannabee?




Arthur Kramer
344th BG 494th BS
England, France, Belgium, Holland, Germany
Visit my WW II B-26 website at:
http://www.coastcomp.com/artkramer

[OXMORON1]

Steve McNicoll commented:

>>He's not even a reliable source on the B-26.

It took Art two replies to say:

>How would you know? How would you >know anything wannabee?

And

>What did you say your combat record >was?

Art why not just change your signature lines to include "Wannabee" and "Where
did you see combat"? It would save you a lot of typing and it is your standard
reply.

Now, I ask you again...What is the difference between Horse Apple, Sheep or
Rabbit Pellets and Cow Patties? Do you know?

Rick
MFE

[Steven P. McNicoll]

"ArtKramr" > wrote in message
...
>
> How would you know?
>

Because you've said things about it that were not correct.

[ArtKramr]

>Subject: Re: Now the neocons are inventng forgeries
>From: (OXMORON1)
>Date: 9/14/2004 10:29 AM Pacific Standard Time
>Message-id: >
>
>Steve McNicoll commented:
>
>>>He's not even a reliable source on the B-26.
>
>It took Art two replies to say:
>
>>How would you know? How would you >know anything wannabee?
>
>And
>
>>What did you say your combat record >was?
>
>Art why not just change your signature lines to include "Wannabee" and "Where
>did you see combat"? It would save you a lot of typing and it is your
>standard
>reply.
>
>Now, I ask you again...What is the difference between Horse Apple, Sheep or
>Rabbit Pellets and Cow Patties? Do you know?
>
>Rick
>MFE
>

Someone who hasn't seen combat but pretends they have is a wannabee. And they
will be identiifed as such so we don't allow then to meld in unnoticed with
real soldiers.


Arthur Kramer
344th BG 494th BS
England, France, Belgium, Holland, Germany
Visit my WW II B-26 website at:
http://www.coastcomp.com/artkramer

[ArtKramr]

>Subject: Re: Now the neocons are inventng forgeries
>From: "Steven P. McNicoll"
>Date: 9/14/2004 10:49 AM Pacific Standard Time
>Message-id: t>
>
>
>"ArtKramr" > wrote in message
...
>>
>> How would you know?
>>
>
>Because you've said things about it that were not correct.


How would you know?. I'll bet you have never even seen a B-26 much less flew
in one. Or anything for that matter.


Arthur Kramer
344th BG 494th BS
England, France, Belgium, Holland, Germany
Visit my WW II B-26 website at:
http://www.coastcomp.com/artkramer

[B2431]

>From: (ArtKramr)
>Date: 9/14/2004 12:01 PM Central Daylight Time
>Message-id: >
>
>>Subject: Re: Now the neocons are inventng forgeries
>>From: "Steven P. McNicoll"
>>Date: 9/14/2004 7:42 AM Pacific Standard Time
>>Message-id: et>
>>
>>
>>"OXMORON1" > wrote in message
...
>>>
>>> Hey Art,
>>> Revolutionary War, War of 1812, Mexican War, Civil War, Spanish American
>>> War,
>>> WWI, Korea, Vietnam, Desert Storm and others were all "Shooting Wars".
>>> What
>>> gives you the expertise on ALL wars?
>>> ETO in WWII also consisted of more than B-26 missions.
>>> Your service is appreciated, but you are not the fountain of all knowledge
>>> about war and definitely not an expert about all things military.
>>> For the past year you have been presenting yourself as a bitter old man.
>>> What the hell is up with you?
>>>
>>
>>He's not even a reliable source on the B-26.
>
>
>What did you say your combat record was?
>
>
>
>Arthur Kramer

Hey art, you claimed clinton was a combat vet so what difference does any other
man's combat or lack of combat experience matter?

Oh, that's right, you have never let your lack of integrity get in the way of
your lunacies.

Dan, U.S. Air Force, retired

[Steven P. McNicoll]

"ArtKramr" > wrote in message
...
>
> What did you say your combat record was?
>

What did you say the definition of neocon was?

Whom did you say you supported for president in 1992? In 1996?

[Steven P. McNicoll]

"ArtKramr" > wrote in message
...
>
> How would you know?
>

Because I know about it.


>
> I'll bet you have never even seen a B-26 much less flew
> in one. Or anything for that matter.
>

You're on. How much do you want to bet?

[OXMORON1]

Art stated in reply to:
>>Now, I ask you again...What is the difference between Horse Apple, Sheep or
>>Rabbit Pellets and Cow Patties? Do you know?
>>

The following
>
>Someone who hasn't seen combat but pretends they have is a wannabee. And they
>will be identiifed as such so we don't allow then to meld in unnoticed with
>real soldiers.
>
Wrong answer!
What is the difference between Horse Apples, Sheep or Rabbit Pellets and Cow
Patties? Do you know? Can we assume you don't know? Yes or No?

Rick

[BUFDRVR]

ArtKramr wrote:

>You don't understand cabdrvr. WW II was a real shooting war.

This was expected.

>Hard to
>believe since that is war outside your personal experience.

This is not hard to believe at all.

>I believe personal experience is worth more than just reading books.

I believe personal experience is worth its value on insight into the expanse of
a persons experience, no more and no less.

>But maybe you should read a few books on WW II and find out what a real
>shooting war is all about

I've read, by my quick counting of my book shelf, at least twenty books on
WWII, including 7 on the air war portion.

>If you can't experience it, you can at least dream
>about it.

You're sad and pathetic.

>Then you can tell everyone how much you know about WW II.

I know more than you, I'm sorry if this hurts your feelings, but you only have
yourself to blame. You rested on your laurels believing your own very small
experience to amount to superior, all knowing knowledge. Try reading, for
beginners, "Mighty Eighth" by Roger Freeman.


BUFDRVR

"Stay on the bomb run boys, I'm gonna get those bomb doors open if it harelips
everyone on Bear Creek"

[BUFDRVR]

ArtKramr wrote:

>What did you say your combat record was?

Why do ask this question? If it wasn't flying B-26s in the ETO, you don't
recognize it as a "real war".


BUFDRVR

"Stay on the bomb run boys, I'm gonna get those bomb doors open if it harelips
everyone on Bear Creek"

[Leslie Swartz]

Correction- Art sez the pilots didn't count either.

If it wasn't "riding around in B-26s in the ETO in WWII it doesn't count as
combat."

Steve Swartz

"BUFDRVR" > wrote in message
...
> ArtKramr wrote:
>
>>What did you say your combat record was?
>
> Why do ask this question? If it wasn't flying B-26s in the ETO, you don't
> recognize it as a "real war".
>
>
> BUFDRVR
>
> "Stay on the bomb run boys, I'm gonna get those bomb doors open if it
> harelips
> everyone on Bear Creek"

[Leslie Swartz]

Art:

I would normally assume that your post (below) was another example of
someone forging your ID in this group. Honestly, at this point, the default
assumption is that another content free insane screed is indeed your post.

Steve Swartz



"ArtKramr" > wrote in message
...
> >ubject: Re: Now the neocons are inventng forgeries
>>From: "Jack G"
>>Date: 9/14/2004 6:40 AM Pacific Standard Time
>>Message-id: <TwC1d.3173$g9.2606@trnddc06>
>>
>
>>Your problem and the reason for your screwed up perception is that you
>>equate emotional involvement with intellectual knowledge. No book will
>>give
>>you the "feelings" associated with experiencing combat - although many
>>come
>>close. Direct experience alone will not give you the in depth knowledge
>>of
>>all aspects of a specific war that can be gained from reading and
>>analyzing
>>the information that is available.
>>
>>You experienced the emotions of combat. You refuse to experience or even
>>acknowledge that the intellectual / analytical side exists. That does not
>>make you a better person, it makes you a closed minded, vindictive, and
>>obnoxious little man who could be a positive example of a WW II veteran
>>instead of an embarrassment to those who honorably served their country
>>in
>>uniform.
>>
>>Jack G.
>>
>
> I responded to your post in a polite manner without personal insult of
> any
> kind. You responded with a barrage of hate and vitriol indicating clearly
> that
> it is you who are twisted and bitter. **** you. No offense of course.
>
>
> Arthur Kramer
> 344th BG 494th BS
> England, France, Belgium, Holland, Germany
> Visit my WW II B-26 website at:
> http://www.coastcomp.com/artkramer
>

[ArtKramr]

>Subject: Re: Now the neocons are inventng forgeries
>From: (BUFDRVR)
>Date: 9/14/2004 1:41 PM Pacific Standard Time
>Message-id: <20040914164148.03232.000

>I know more than you,

Will this bragging mantra never cease? (sigh)


Arthur Kramer
344th BG 494th BS
England, France, Belgium, Holland, Germany
Visit my WW II B-26 website at:
http://www.coastcomp.com/artkramer

[B2431]

>From: (ArtKramr)
>Date: 9/14/2004 5:06 PM Central Daylight Time
>Message-id: >
>
>>Subject: Re: Now the neocons are inventng forgeries
>>From: (BUFDRVR)
>>Date: 9/14/2004 1:41 PM Pacific Standard Time
>>Message-id: <20040914164148.03232.000
>
>>I know more than you,
>
>Will this bragging mantra never cease? (sigh)
>
>
>Arthur Kramer
>
No, you will continue to brag and lie.

Dan, U.S. Air Force, retired